What is "good" for handgun groups?


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Demos
October 9, 2013, 09:27 PM
Hi guys ,
I went to the range and was shooting unsupported standing at 50 feet with my 22/45 and 92FS today and after shooting for a bit I realized that I have no idea what "good" handgun groups. I was consistently getting 2.5-3" groups (5-10 rounds) shooting as soon as I felt the sight picture was good, not deliberately taking my time, and not rushing (I'd say about 2-3 seconds per shot). Should I be proud of that, or disappointed? What should my goal be?

Thanks,
Demos

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Droid noob
October 9, 2013, 09:38 PM
From the shooting I see at ranges, that probably above average. Most the people I see don't even go past 7-10 yards.

JoeMal
October 9, 2013, 09:38 PM
I would call those good groups. Putting rounds in the same general area, where you meant to put them, is good enough for me. Some days I shoot better, some days I shoot worse.

Kayaker 1960
October 9, 2013, 09:59 PM
I usually shoot at 25 yards. On a good day with my Glock model 22 I can keep most of my shots within a 6" or so circle. With my Buckmark .22 closer to 3". Honestly most folks that I see are hitting all over the target at 25 yards. I've seen a few guys shoot into a 3" circle all day though.

9mmepiphany
October 9, 2013, 10:59 PM
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically!
This is a common rejoinder, but it is really doing a disservice to a new shooter.

While distance may be irrelevant, accuracy isn't. Accuracy is mostly a matter of trigger control. The way you learn trigger control is by learning consistent trigger management...trigger press. Consistency is developed by shooting very small groups at a distance, measured in yards, to make it easier to see flaws in your technique.

If all you do is learn to slap the trigger quickly to get your shots into a 6-8" dinner plate at a couple of yards, you're going to develop a horrible flinch which could well cause you to miss under pressure at a couple of feet. I've seen more than a few people miss from that range under just time pressure

OP - at 50 feet, just a hair under 17 yards, I would think it would be more than acceptable if you kept all your shots under 2".

shooting as soon as I felt the sight picture was good, not deliberately taking my time, and not rushing (I'd say about 2-3 seconds per shot).
That is pretty slow for shooting two handed and that level of accuracy. You might consider some formal instruction to learn to maintain that accuracy while shooting a bit faster. Two shots a second and keeping all shots inside 2" at 15 yards (45') is pretty easy once you have learn the correct technique.

I usually have clients shoot into a 3"x5" card when shooting a 3-4 shots a second at 5-10 yards

M2 Carbine
October 9, 2013, 11:08 PM
What should my goal be?

To continually get more accurate and faster.

Personally my scoring system is easy.
I either put all the rounds in what I'm aiming at (100%),

or I don't. In which case the score is Zero.


For instance,
I do a good bit of low light/dark laser and laser/light shooting in the evenings (home range).
Mostly I shoot steel at 5 to 15 yards while I'm on the move.
Lately I've been using a Crimson Trace equipped Ruger SR22. Good gun.
I have ten magazines so I shoot 100 rounds at a time, mostly at this steel target.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/SR22laserlowlight25to5yards_zpsd8505c92.jpg (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Bell-helicopter-407/media/SR22laserlowlight25to5yards_zpsd8505c92.jpg.html)

This was a couple weeks ago.
Not bad for rapid fire while I was moving, except I was "killed". I missed one shot (3 o'clock in the black).
That's not acceptable.


Just try to get a little better each time you shoot but don't forget to have fun while you are at it. :)



.

Steve C
October 10, 2013, 04:16 AM
Sounds like you are shooting quite well. There is group size and then there is placement. Small groups center of target is much better than small groups in the 5 ring.

If you are looking for a goal, a master rated bullseye shooter on a good day can put 10 rounds all within the X ring at 50 yards slow fire and 25 yards in timed and rapid fire, shooting one handed, no support allowed. The X ring is 1-5/8" and the 10 ring is 3-3/8" in diameter. Now such shooting is an exceptional target but a "Master" rating means that they are shooting (95-96.99%) of the possible score on average while a High Master is shooting over 97%.

PakWaan
October 10, 2013, 04:38 AM
3" groups at 50 feet is good. Keep the fundamentals in mind and keep shooting!

http://thecommercialbroker.com/target.jpg

TestPilot
October 10, 2013, 09:28 AM
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically! If you're bullseye shooting, step out. Shooting for self defense, stay close, feet away!

What is "realistic" about limiting yourself to be a 1ft range wonder?

There are cases after cases where it is proven that self-defense shooting also happens greater range.

Range is relevant. Not only is long distance shooting relevant for distant target, it is also relevant for small target at close range.

Only in a fantasy world, thugs always present full frontal body like a B-27 target.

BCRider
October 10, 2013, 02:25 PM
Demos, in my experience shooting that well at 16 to 17 yards (your 50 feet) is pretty darn good.

It's about average among the group I shoot with. But the group I shoot with are all long time shooters with good skill level. On the other hand compared to the average once a month noise maker at the range you're doing WELL above average.

Now don't go all mushy and start resting on your success... :D I'm no bullseye Olympic shooter. But on a good day at the same 16 to 17 yards I can produce 2 to 2.5 inch groups pretty consistently. I'm somewhat limited to that thanks to my "old guy eyes" and nerves. And provided I'm not all coffee'd up.... :D

MrWesson
October 10, 2013, 03:12 PM
At 25yds I can do a 3-4" group pretty consistant with my XD9 with a trigger job.

.22 with a red dot can get down to around 2" at the same distance. Done off hand of course without a rest.

I consider that to be good and you to be above average.

Keep in mind the average joe blasts away a mag at a time rapid fire never focusing much on bullseye type of accuracy. I'd say 6-10" groupings at 15yds to be around the average I see from my buddies who own guns but aren't huge shooters(id consider that average).

I worked hard to get my long range pistol groups down by doing hand exercises,holding milk jugs for a commercial while watching TV,dry fire, and etc.

Cosmoline
October 10, 2013, 03:26 PM
Most shooters at the handgun range have no idea what they're doing. They blast away pretty randomly at 10 yard targets, hitting vague groups. It's a sad spectacle of American marksmanship these days. If you can master the basic stances and pay attention to fundamentals it's not difficult to do much, much better.

scaatylobo
October 11, 2013, 11:37 AM
If your talking self defense shooting groups ?, then I vote for a FAST grouping of no more than 5".

And that at between 3' and 7 yards.

All distances in between.

If your talking about just slow fire for accuracy ,then slow fire at 25 yards should be no more than 3" group = leastwise that is my 00.02 cent.

bergmen
October 11, 2013, 12:57 PM
My revolver can do this (five shots at 25 yards):

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u580/Bergmen/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/FreedomArmsAccuracyTest_zpsfa2c8816.jpg (http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Bergmen/media/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/Handguns/FreedomArmsAccuracyTest_zpsfa2c8816.jpg.html)

I cannot (yet).

Dan

788Ham
October 11, 2013, 02:21 PM
PakWaan,

I can consistently shoot groups, like yours, at 15 yards with my Colt Trooper 4" .38 Spl.revolver. I'm not an Olympic shooter either, just pounds and pounds of powder and lead, plus a place I can go 2 or 3 times a week. Good shooting.

MrWesson
October 11, 2013, 02:59 PM
If your talking about just slow fire for accuracy ,then slow fire at 25 yards should be no more than 3" group = leastwise that is my 00.02 cent.

You mean the gun capable of that right?

I know very few people who can do that unsupported and offhand.

Very few.

dvnv
October 11, 2013, 04:55 PM
I think Ross Seyfried said one was a decent shot if he could shoot groups that were an inch for every ten yards of distance.

MrBorland
October 11, 2013, 05:32 PM
My standard for good (but not excellent) handgun target-style shooting is 3"@25 yards with a serviced-sized handgun. Revolver shooters ought to be able to do this in DA as well as SA. These are 5-round, unsupported, honest and consistent groups shot under no time constraints. "Honest" means no "fliers - everything counts, and "consistent" means that 3" group you shot isn't a once-in-a-lifetime event. :rolleyes:

IMO, 3" @ 50ft is much better than what you're likely to see at most ranges, but it's not likely what one is able to do with a little good instruction, practice and mindset.

orionengnr
October 11, 2013, 05:41 PM
I see that you are getting some very different answers, depending upon the abilities of the shooters.

IMHO, you are doing quite well, although you should continue to concentrating on improving. Then again, I can't shoot 3" at 25 yards, and I have never seen anyone who can...although I'm sure that some can, they are not common.

When I am at the range, 75-85% of the guys there shoot 12" groups at 9-15 feet...on a good day. I shoot mostly at 25 feet, and if I can make 5 rds touch I'm pretty happy. If I can do it twice, so much the better. That doesn't happen very often.

There is group size and then there is placement. Small groups center of target is much better than small groups in the 5 ring.
Hmmm...not to be disagreeable, but I think that shooting small groups is far more difficult. If you can shoot a small group consistently, then you can either adjust (or change) your sights to move that group, or you can use "Kentucky windage" to place that small group where you want it. Just my .02.

9mmepiphany
October 11, 2013, 09:45 PM
I think Ross Seyfried said one was a decent shot if he could shoot groups that were an inch for every ten yards of distance.
That is a pretty reasonable standard

You mean the gun capable of that right?

I know very few people who can do that unsupported and offhand.

Very few.
No, acceptable gun capability would be that at 50 yards. A really accurate service handgun will let a shooter keep pretty much <2" off a sandbag. A really good shooter...I'm not one...will hold 3-4" at 50 yards, with that gun.

It only makes sense to aspire to be a better shooter as opposed to an average shooter

I shoot mostly at 25 feet, and if I can make 5 rds touch I'm pretty happy. If I can do it twice, so much the better. That doesn't happen very often.
At just over 8 yards, taking my time shooting, I'd be really concerned if my shots didn't touch

hovercat
October 12, 2013, 12:35 AM
My starting question is, What is your firearm + ammo combination capable of? See if you can borrow a rest, or at least use sandbags. You may or may not want to try different ammo to get better groups. You cannot hold better than your pistol accuracy.

MrWesson
October 12, 2013, 12:37 AM
I guess I hang around the wrong groups of shooters.

In my defense I mostly hang around USPSA shooters a couple being top tier(shoot for a living) and any one of these guys could barely hold a 3" group together at 30yds(most couldn't). I know its a different discipline but still.

I can come close with different pistols but with my XD with a trigger job I can do 3" at 25yds pretty regularly(still not easy) and get within 6" at 50yds.

I will say that after 10 years of shooting every week I have only met a few people who could keep it inside 5" at 25yds with a centerfire service gun.

When I shoot rimfire bullseye matches we shoot out to 50yds and I see some good shooting with super modified pistols with scopes but offhand centerfire being a huge difference.

Internet good VS real world good IMO hugely different things.

Edit: What I mean by internet good is a larger pool of shooters, some BS, and most people who read/post about shooting are above average to begin with.

Justin
October 12, 2013, 12:37 AM
I'm about to get somewhat philosophical, so bear with me.

What is "good" accuracy?

This question leads to another question, one that's a bit more complicated, but with a much more satisfying answer.

So, what is "good" accuracy?

Well, by what standard to you want to measure "good"?

If you can answer that question, you now have a standard by which you can judge your current abilities, and hopefully a path to follow for improvement.

What constitutes good will vary depending on the standard you want, and what you want to accomplish. Are you interested in just beating your buddy? Being prepared for a self-defense situation? Competing in Olympic- or NRA-style bullseye matches? Shooting an IDPA or IPSC match?

At the very base, are you interested in pursuing pure accuracy, or does your concept of accuracy take into account things like timed pressure, speed, drawing from a holster, multiple targets, moving, reloading, etc?

If you answer these question, you now have some idea of where you want to go on your journey to become more accurate.

Justin
October 12, 2013, 12:40 AM
I will add one caveat to my above post.

Make sure you don't choose accuracy standards that are too low, lest you end up spouting this sort of nonsense:

Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically! If you're bullseye shooting, step out. Shooting for self defense, stay close, feet away!



The biggest advantage offered by a handgun, especially in a self-defense situation, is that it allows you to engage your adversary without having to be within physical touching distance.

If you can't hit a target, under pressure, from more than a couple of feet, you've completely defeated the purpose of carrying a handgun in the first place.

9mmepiphany
October 12, 2013, 12:53 AM
In my defense I mostly hang around USPSA shooters a couple being top tier(shoot for a living) and any one of these guys could barely hold a 3" group together at 30yds(most couldn't). I know its a different discipline but still.
The guys I was referring to earlier...3-4" at 50 yards...are USPSA Grand Masters. They are a bit older, but you might have heard of them Bruce Gray and Mickey Fowler...and they both tell me Mike Dalton is even more accurate.

It really isn't that different, they can just take that accuracy and do it at high speed when they need to

JohnKSa
October 12, 2013, 01:18 AM
Starting from low-ready, shooting from a two-handed unsupported standing position and using a centerfire pistol, a good shooter should be able to:

With no time constraints, shoot a five shot group at 25 yards that measures 4" or smaller. (All hits in the X-ring of an NRA-D1 target.)

With a 30 second time constraint, shoot a ten shot group at 25 yards that measures 8" or smaller. (All hits in the X- and 10- rings of an NRA-D1 target.)

MrBorland
October 12, 2013, 02:38 AM
In my defense I mostly hang around USPSA shooters a couple being top tier(shoot for a living) and any one of these guys could barely hold a 3" group together at 30yds(most couldn't). I know its a different discipline but still.

"Top tier" USPSA shooters are (or should be) capable of 3"@25 under "target" conditions. First, the gun and ammo have to be able to deliver the goods, say under an inch at 25 yards, but a top USPSA shooter's gear can likely do that.

But mainly, one rarely gets to see them shoot towards this goal or under these conditions. I hang out with a lot of very excellent competitive shooters, and I can recall one instance where I actually saw one of them shoot for tight groups into a bullseye target with no time constraints.

kneesus
October 12, 2013, 09:13 AM
Depends on what you're shooting for. Develop good fundamentals, then increase rate of fire from there while practicing reloading and weapon manipulation.

MrWesson
October 12, 2013, 09:52 AM
"Top tier" USPSA shooters are (or should be) capable of 3"@25 under "target" conditions. First, the gun and ammo have to be able to deliver the goods, say under an inch at 25 yards, but a top USPSA shooter's gear can likely do that.

But mainly, one rarely gets to see them shoot towards this goal or under these conditions. I hang out with a lot of very excellent competitive shooters, and I can recall one instance where I actually saw one of them shoot for tight groups into a bullseye target with no time constraints.

A big caveat here is they were using a service handgun with factory ammo same as me.

With a ported open gun with a red dot i'm sure they could put holes in holes.

I have shot a stage or two with a ported open gun and the accuracy is unreal compared to my service pistols(Glock,XD,M&P).

Even I can shoot 2" at 25yds with my .22 handgun with a red dot and usually hanging in or around the 10 ring at 15yds.

So I guess it really depends on the gun too. Next time I am at the range I am going to bench test my XD USPSA gun.

giggitygiggity
October 12, 2013, 11:08 AM
It always makes me both laugh and get angry when I see someone at the range who shows up with 5.11 tactical pants and Oakley boots, and a Glock shirt, a custom Glock with red dot site and then put the target three yards away, dump a magazine, and the shots are all over the place. This happened last week. Shooting fast isn't hard... anyone can move their finger quick. Putting the shots in the same place is the tricky part. That is why most of my shooting is at 25 yards with a pistol and it is slow. FUNDAMENTALS. You need to build up muscle memory. Speed is second to accuracy.

murf
October 12, 2013, 01:47 PM
i have to disagree with you, gigg. i believe speed and accuracy are equal partners in the shooting game. the key is to keep both in balance.

increase your speed a bit and, with practice, bring your accuracy up to par. repeat this procedure until you are as fast and accurate as you can be.

if you get away from the game for a while, slow down until your accuracy is up to par, then run the speed up as before. this usually takes a short while (gettin back into your rhythm, so to speak).

balance is the key, for me.

murf

MrBorland
October 12, 2013, 02:20 PM
With a ported open gun with a red dot i'm sure they could put holes in holes.

So I guess it really depends on the gun too.

I agree the gun has to be up for it, but it doesn't require, IMO, the optics and/or porting of an Open class gun. Just a reasonably accurate gun & ammo (capable of, say, an inch or better at 25 yards), a good trigger, and sights you can see. The rest of the 3"@25 is up to the "good" shooter.

Depends on what you're shooting for.

Yes, "good" depends on the application. But generally, when the question's asked, it's in the context of "what can be expected when a "good" shooter simply picks up their gun and shoots groups?". It's not about good action shooting (e.g. USPSA/IDPA) nor good formal target shooting (e.g. bullseye). It's about no timer, no score, no range commands, no other shooters...and no excuses ;): Just the shooter, their gun, a target, and all the time in the world. It's a shooter's polygraph. :D

9mmepiphany
October 12, 2013, 02:39 PM
A couple of years ago, I was introduced to a evaluation drill which does away with the shooter's ability to rationalize away shooting errors.

It is a series of 1" squares printed on a sheet of printer paper...12 squares; 3 across, 4 rows down...in the center is a .5" blank circle. The squares are rotated 45 degrees so that the tips point up and down (makes it easier to line up your rear blade laterally).

You shoot the drill at 5-7 yards and only fire one round at each square.

Then tell me how consistent a shooter you are.

It is also a good tool to determine how changes in grip affect your point of impact. Make the change and fire 3 rounds (1 at each square) without looking at your targets

Hangingrock
October 12, 2013, 04:29 PM
If one were to use the IDPA and or USPSA/ISPC targets for accuracy standards within the parameters of time, distance, and number of shots fired: Target IDPA 8"(body) and 6"X6"Sq (head) would apply without penalty –or- Target USPSA/ISPC 6"x11"retangle (body) and 2"X4" rectangle (head) would apply without penalty. Just an observation. That's all.

9mmepiphany
October 12, 2013, 05:40 PM
If one were to use the IDPA and or USPSA/ISPC targets for accuracy standards within the parameters of time, distance, and number of shots fired: Target IDPA 8"(body) and 6"X6"Sq (head) would apply without penalty –or- Target USPSA/ISPC 6"x11"retangle (body) and 2"X4" rectangle (head) would apply without penalty. Just an observation. That's all.
Which, using a commonly accepted rule of thumb, would mean that you'd be practicing to a standard of half those sizes.

1. IDPA: 4" circle for the body and 3" square for the head
2. USPSA: 3"x5" for the body and 1"x2" for the head

...which is why I suggested practicing on a 3"x5" index card

Archie
October 12, 2013, 06:31 PM
You shot a Ruger 22/45 and a Beretta 92 (something) at 50 feet.

For what purpose do you shoot your pistols?

A Ruger 22 pistol is commonly used in Bullseye competition - some with 'target modifications' and many without (depending on the intent of the shooter). 50 feet is the standard range for Bullseye shooting, with reduced targets, since 'regular' outdoor competition is fired at 50 and 25 yards. The black portion (the 'bullseye' is just over three inches in diameter for both slow and timed/rapid fire targets.

To be in competition for winning, one must hold all shots in that black spot, in Slow, Timed and Rapid fire. (That's a total of 90 shots.) One handed, standing, by the way.

Another use for the Ruger 22 pistol is hunting small game. So the accuracy goal is 'minute of bunny' at what ever distance one hopes to sneak up on said bunny. It is a bit more vague, but three inches at 50 feet would more than likely serve.

The Beretta pistol is essentially a self-defense pistol. The accuracy demands are a bit different. One could assume that since most self-defense encounters happen at seven yards or less, anything in the "A" zone of the current IPSC target would be suitable at seven yards.

I consider that standard a minimum criteria. My personal standard for a defensive pistol is the ability to make head shots consistently at 25 yards for a concealment sidearm; 50 yards with a full sized 'belt gun' (such as a Beretta 92, for instance).

You will have to decide your own needs in the matter.

Someone alluded to shooting with others. An old dictum in target shooting is "One only gets as good as one's competition." In other words, as long as one is the 'best shooter around', one feels no need to do better. From a self-defense viewpoint, who knows how 'good' your competition will be?

shafter
October 13, 2013, 10:18 AM
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically! If you're bullseye shooting, step out. Shooting for self defense, stay close, feet away!

Um, no. Increasing difficulty is good whether you are shooting or lifting weights or whatever. If you can lift 200lbs then 100 is a piece of cake. If you can hit the target at 50ft then hitting it at 25 is that much easier.

I also suggest not paying attention to group sizes. Treat each shot as if its the only one. Make each shot count and don't worry about your groups. If you can do that your groups will automatically shrink.

That being said I think the OP sounds like he is doing a fine job with that 22/45 of his.

MrWesson
October 13, 2013, 10:26 AM
Um, no. Increasing difficulty is good whether you are shooting or lifting weights or whatever. If you can lift 200lbs then 100 is a piece of cake. If you can hit the target at 50ft then hitting it at 25 is that much easier.

I agree with this. Shooting long distance made me better.

that being said the're many different ways to get better. Main thing is put rounds down range for practice and not for the noise.

Hangingrock
October 13, 2013, 12:36 PM
Most pistol ranges that have 50yd lines that I’ve shot at you’ll find the 50yd yard line on average to be the least used. Ranges with 50yd & 25yd lines were basically intended for bullseye shooting in my opinion. Most individuals shooting the humanoid style targets have a preference for closer the better as opposed to standard 50yd & 25yd line distances.

One outdoor shooting facility I’m associated with utilizes pistol bays which are walled in on three sides. This allows shooters to setup and arrange targets for their envisioned scenarios. My observation is that without a minimum specifies safety distance for shooting steel targets; shooters would shoot at spitting distances if allowed.

The level of accuracy required is dependent on the shooters envisioned purpose or lack there of.

MrBorland
October 13, 2013, 12:45 PM
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically!

I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed. Those who are satisfied with combat accuracy while shooting in the very controlled & stress-free conditions of the typical range (i.e. no movement, slow fire, 1 target, good lighting, etc) would do well to either raise their accuracy standard, and/or start competing in events such as USPSA or IDPA.

Eb1
October 13, 2013, 01:00 PM
Here are two targets of my carry guns using SD ammo.

Both were shot at 15 yards from a draw. The J-Frame is Double Action and the Bersa Thunder was DA/SA. The were shot rapid fire from a Weaver stance. I don't consider this to be bad shooting. Some might, but I don't. I don't have laser grips. The targets are 2" from Center "X" to the outside. So a 4" target.

9mmepiphany
October 13, 2013, 01:14 PM
Distance is irrelevant at self defense ranges! Practice realistically!
I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed.
This is a very relevant point

I recently attended a class which helped me define what this is

Shooting at a standard USPSA target (see post #35 above for measurements and post #37 for a picture) on a turning mount, the drill was to (1) react to the turn of the target by (2) drawing, (3) stepping sideways, (4) and placing two shots in the "A" zone...at 5 yards (15') in 1 second

I got up to speed by the second day and was especially happy with my consistently better DA first shot (shooting a .45ACP SIG 220). I wasn't anywhere near the top of the class (my reaction time is painfully slow), where the revolver guys (S&W 625) were placing all their rounds well within 2" at that speed

BSA1
October 13, 2013, 04:16 PM
The problem I have when shooting for tight groups is I never know what I am really measuring that day; the gun, the ammo or myself.

I have a Colt Gold Cup that is capable of 1" groups at 25 yds with match ammo. However I am not near a 1" bullseye shooter. However with a service gun, I (prefer a revolver), 3" groups at 15 yds. is realistic. Untuned Beretta 92 with generic ammo at 15 yds? You bet I'd be happy with that

Ammo...cousin Bubba's reloads, Winchester white box bulk pack or match tuned to the gun?

Myself...caffeine jitters, breath control, front sight , front sight , dang it remember the front sight, grip, trigger squeeze

chriske
October 14, 2013, 09:15 AM
50 feet, that's about 15 meters, right ?
2.5" - 3.0 " 5/10 shot groups seem OK, shot the way you describe.
You could make it a goal to deliberately take time & care & get even better. AND have fun in the process !

BCRider
October 20, 2013, 02:51 PM
I've no issue with "combat accuracy" at combat speed. Those who are satisfied with combat accuracy while shooting in the very controlled & stress-free conditions of the typical range (i.e. no movement, slow fire, 1 target, good lighting, etc) would do well to either raise their accuracy standard, and/or start competing in events such as USPSA or IDPA.

Yep.... I'm with you 100% on this idea.

On the other hand...

50 feet, that's about 15 meters, right ?
2.5" - 3.0 " 5/10 shot groups seem OK.......

Chriske, I'd be MORE than happy to manage this sort of group on a regular basis when I'm shooting slow and deliberate. As it happens I do manage to do that but many folks for a variety of reason can't manage groups that tight. And neither can I if I'm coffee'd up or just had a big meal before going to the range. For some reason I found I can shoot better if I'm not hungry but not overly stuffed either. So on my club's bullseye evenings I tend to have something light for an early dinner so I'm not hungry or full about an hour later when I step up to shoot. Even so my "oldguyeyetis" and nerves prevent me doing much, if any, better than 2 1/2 inch @ 20 yards even with my better guns on good nights. And without tooting my own horn I'm not the best but I seem to be better than mid pack at producing these groups. More typical for what I'd consider average shooters using a combat style handgun is to see 5 to 6 inch groups from a standing two handed stance at 25 yards. Which, if you think about it, is still pretty darn respectable when you see the shot group from the 25 yard line. It may not look like much to cheer about from up close but from back at 25 it's no bigger than a pencil eraser held at arm's length.

rdstrain49
October 20, 2013, 07:04 PM
18 rounds at 25 yards

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad281/rdstrain49/IMG_0325-1.jpg (http://s944.photobucket.com/user/rdstrain49/media/IMG_0325-1.jpg.html)

Pete D.
October 20, 2013, 10:10 PM
Rd: Nice shooting that charcoal burner.
i believe speed and accuracy are equal partners in the shooting game ,
Depends upon the game, doesn't it? Shooting in the action pistol games....yes, of course. Shooting the Free Pistol, speed takes the rumble seat.

Pete

Meeteetse
October 20, 2013, 11:55 PM
Next time you go to the range get a couple of silhouette type targets called B-27. If you can keep all your shots in the 10 ring (center of mass) from whatever distance you shoot, you are doing well. Don't worry about tiny groups, just consistent clusters.

9mmepiphany
October 21, 2013, 12:05 AM
The B-27 is about as old as the the belief in 5 shots in 5 seconds at 5 yards into 5 inches...it certainly isn't a standard that I would teach to or that I would be satisfied with

Meeteetse
October 21, 2013, 01:48 PM
Your opinion is noted, but it is just that, an opinion. The B-27 may not be new but it still works and is used by many training instructors. 30+ years as an instructor has taught me that you don't disregard something just because it isn't new. It should not be the only thing that is taught but it certainly works as part of a training program.

9mmepiphany
October 21, 2013, 04:14 PM
You're right, it is my opinion. But it is based on years of experience in LE and as an instructor.

The B-27 was the standard when I started in LE in 1979...and what I placed a lot of rounds onto while competing in PPC. The problem with using the B-27 is that it is too large and builds a false sense of confidence in a shooters ability to place shots accurately under pressure...to say nothing of the less than optimal placement of the scoring rings.

Just this weekend, I saw several shooters at the local range shooting on a B-27 and being happy with what they considered being prepared to defend their home. They couldn't even place two shots together at 5 yards while shooting at 1 shot per second.

I offered a few small tips as to grip and trigger control and placed a 3"x5" card on their target to shoot at. Not surprisingly their groupings shrank damatically.

When shooting a bit more quickly, 3-4 shots per second, I usually have clients shoot on a 6"-8" plate at 5-7 yards

you don't disregard something just because it isn't new
That is never a reason to discard something. However, when it is instilling bad habits/false confidence, that is a perfect reason...especially when there are better tools available

Meeteetse
October 21, 2013, 07:05 PM
I don't disagree with a thing you have said. My comment suggesting the B-27 was intended to establish a starting point for the OP. I did not suggest that it was a true test of accuracy or skill. I can tell you that as an LE and civilian instructor I have used the B-27 to establish a baseline of skills and worked from there to improve the skills of each student. With nothing to judge their skills against, seeing groups improve from their initial B-27 targets to smaller tighter groups on smaller targets helps the student "see" their improvement.

Seems as though we are on the same page, just looking at it from a different perspective.

marv
October 21, 2013, 07:31 PM
Minute of paper plate with a DAO .38 snub at 15-20 yds is good. Tighter would be better.

JRWhit
October 21, 2013, 07:46 PM
If your a leisurely shooter and don't shoot like its ur job, your doing great. Keep practicing.
If you keeping from pulling right, or pushing left, or dipping then you doing good with trigger control. Keep practicing and it keeps getting better.

TestPilot
October 22, 2013, 03:18 AM
It depends on your purpose.

For security purpose, tight enough group for a good head shot, no "grazing" shots, at a range I want to be capable of fighting at combat speed is good for me.

For some, that is 3 ft. For some others, that is 30m.

ny32182
October 22, 2013, 02:01 PM
Not that I am in favor of making excuses based on equipment, but the gun is a huge factor that is rarely taken into account in these discussions.

Shooting a group with a .22 dedicated target pistol, and doing the same with a service grade centerfire pistol with factory type ammo are VASTLY different levels of difficulty. Also there is a lot of variance in the accuracy of different pistols as well. The first time I picked up a CZ I was able to shoot groups much smaller at 15yd than I can with any of the plastic guns I've put 10's of thousands of rounds through. The reason for that is that the gun is more accurate.

But in general, I find internet pistol accuracy claims to be egregiously better than virtually anything I have ever seen in the real world. If you can pick up a stock Glock, XD, etc and shoot a 3" group at 25 yards every time, you are as good accuracy wise as national champion action shooters who shoot for a living. And once again, that feat with a .22 target pistol is not nearly so impressive.

As a USPSA production shooter on the brink of GM, I shoot groups frequently in practice. I shoot at a paster at 7 yards (don't always hit it), and/or a USPSA classic target at 50 yards (no D's on a good day). I also find that lighting plays a significant role as well. The front sight is wider than the whole target at 50, and depending on how the fiber is lit up, etc, the sight picture can vary a bit.

JohnKSa
October 22, 2013, 06:01 PM
The first time I picked up a CZ I was able to shoot groups much smaller at 15yd than I can with any of the plastic guns I've put 10's of thousands of rounds through. The reason for that is that the gun is more accurate.With most of my stock full-sized pistols and decent ammo, I'm disappointed if I can't get five shot groups at 15 yards that measure under 2" when I'm doing my part and shooting for accuracy. Even my small DAO carry gun, a Kahr CW9 will shoot under 2.5" at 15 yards.

I've run into a few guns that won't shoot really tight groups at 25 yards, but it's much harder to find guns that won't make pleasing groups at 15 yards unless there's an obvious problem. Even the ones I consider to be inaccurate will still hold 3-4" groups at 15 yards with ammo they like.

That's NOT to say I do that every single time I shoot a group at those distances, or even every single time I try to shoot a group for pure accuracy/group size. There's a reason I don't save every single target I shoot at the range. ;)

But if I shoot 3 or 4 targets for accuracy, I'd expect one or two of them to meet the standards above.

Hangingrock
October 22, 2013, 08:57 PM
The B-27 target its been awhile probably 25 or so years since I've utilized that target. That would have been in my revolver days and before that target the equivalent of the FBI-TRC target. I'm surprised that the B-27 is still relevant but I'm not all knowing on the subject either.

MrBorland
October 22, 2013, 08:59 PM
Shooting a group with a .22 dedicated target pistol, and doing the same with a service grade centerfire pistol with factory type ammo are VASTLY different levels of difficulty.

I agree and suggested (post 32) one needed "a reasonably accurate gun & ammo (capable of, say, an inch or better at 25 yards), a good trigger, and sights you can see" to print 3"@25 yards. While my revolvers are up to it, I'll admit I'd be hard-pressed to shoot 3"@25 with a service-grade striker-fired pistol.

ny32182
October 23, 2013, 04:09 PM
Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

ratt_finkel
October 23, 2013, 04:12 PM
Based on my experiences, the average shooter is lucky to do 3-5" groups at 15 yards. And I see plenty who cannot do that grouping at 3 yards. Very rarely do I see people shooting a standard pistol targets past 7 yards. And the results are usually pretty embarrassing.

MrBorland
October 23, 2013, 04:32 PM
Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

Yep & nope.

I just got it (a standard M&P40), then shot it for the 1st time Sunday by test-firing some handloads (the first of those, too) 15 minutes before the day's match. Got the holster & carriers from DK 5 minutes before the match. :D Surprisingly, the match went ok - time was slow-ish, but ok, all things considered.

Anyhow, I have no idea how this M&P and/or my handloads inherently shoot (I'll assume as well as any other striker fired gun), but I'll shoot a few 25 yard groups tomorrow or Friday just to see how we do together.

mmissile
October 24, 2013, 02:00 PM
I usually pratice at about 10yards, rapid/aimed fire, and shoot about 4-6 inches for a whole mag[10-16 rounds]

Revolver Ocelot
October 24, 2013, 04:19 PM
shooting off hand at 25 yards my goal is to have my group small enough that I can cover it with the palm of my hand, my wife does this much better than I.

MrBorland
October 24, 2013, 04:48 PM
Have you got your M&P and shot it for groups yet?

Anyhow, I have no idea how this M&P and/or my handloads inherently shoot (I'll assume as well as any other striker fired gun), but I'll shoot a few 25 yard groups tomorrow or Friday just to see how we do together.

I got out today and shot 4 groups, the 1st being a warm-up (not gonna show that one :rolleyes:). I used 50M smallbore targets (3.9" across the black) because that what I had. They work well at 25 yards, though, and offer a good precise aiming point (7 yard pasters and 50 yard A-zones aren't really good for that ;)). I shot 5 rounds unsupported per group at 25 yards (though I realized afterward I only shot 4 rounds on #2). The gun's a new-to-me bone-stock standard size M&P40. I shot my own reloads, loaded on my Dillon 650 progressive press, but they've not been optimized in any way. Just figured 3.2 Clays over a plated 180 ought to be a good place to start, so that's what I loaded up and shot. Haven't even chrono'd them. My guess is they're around PF 135k-ish.

Group #1: 5 rounds @ 2.46" (c-c)
Group #2: 4 rounds @ 2.43"
Group #3: 5 rounds @ 2.80"

Not claiming I can shoot 3" @ 25 (or better) every time, but given the conditions and circumstances, I'm satisfied a decent shooter with a "reasonably accurate" polymer service gun is capable of 3"@25. Just use an appropriate target and take your time.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MampP4010-24-131_zpsb5acd4eb.jpg

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MampP4010-24-132_zpsed4f2932.jpg

PabloJ
October 25, 2013, 09:27 AM
My standard requirement is near center of dixie plate at 10m or less. I have seen high grade German .357 revolver that had factory test target. The 25m group with .38 Geco ammo was shocking one rugged hole about size US quarter. That was amazing.

MrBorland
October 25, 2013, 11:50 AM
I have seen high grade German .357 revolver that had factory test target. The 25m group with .38 Geco ammo was shocking one rugged hole about size US quarter. That was amazing.

IME, even a merely "good" revolver (e.g. S&W) can shoot under an inch (i.e. US quarter size) at 25 yards using a rest and quality ammo. It's just one of the qualities of a good revolver I enjoy. :)

DIXIEDOG
October 25, 2013, 05:08 PM
I used to shoot paper for groups but now I shoot 4" steel plates instead....as long as every shot hits the plate I'm happy so I guess I call 4" groups good.:D


I try not to get too hung up on itty bitty groups with handguns, I used to but found myself starting to get put out with a few that were decent but I just couldn't get tiny groups with....then I thought about it and couldn't figure out why I needed tighter groups. Now I shoot as quickly as possible to keep the plates spinning constantly.

David E
October 25, 2013, 08:52 PM
The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Easy to say, hard to do.

9mmepiphany
October 25, 2013, 09:26 PM
The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Easy to say, hard to do.
Very much so.

When you first start, you want to see the steel fall. Even when you get over that, you still want to hear the "ding" of the impact.

You have to really concentrate on moving your eyes as soon as you're broken the shot

Sauer Grapes
October 25, 2013, 11:10 PM
:what: If your shooting 2.5-3'' groups at 50', your in the top 10% at my club! We have shooters at our club that can't hit the ground.....lol.

Pete D.
October 25, 2013, 11:30 PM
Good group...not a good score.
A friend of mine shot this group one hand unsupported at 50 ft.
1911, iron sights.
Pete

MrBorland
October 26, 2013, 07:24 AM
The key is to not take one micro-second longer than necessary.

Shooting good groups (the subject of this thread) is about (and only about) the fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control. The shooter gives themselves every opportunity to shoot a good group by removing all excuses (e.g. time constraints, sub-optimal target, score, etc.). No BS - it's just you, your gun and your fundamentals. Take all the time you need. If a shooter shoots good groups with fast splits, great. But if they find they simply can't shoot a decent group with all the time in the world, I'd say they've found a hole in their repertoire.

Good group...not a good score.

A good group and a good score ups the difficulty level considerably, lol. I've got a lot of respect for good bullseye shooters.

HighExpert
October 26, 2013, 08:01 AM
Group size is relative. I shoot Bullseye and a 3" group at fifty feet would make me cry. A three inch group at fifty yards wouldn't overly thrill me. It would equal Sharpshooter level work and I shoot in the low Master level. With a carry gun, full power ammo and limited time constraints, I would be very satisfied with 3" at 50 ft. Greater accuracy is a goal some work toward others want more speed with a little less accuracy. If you want to very accurate you need the more expensive firearms that are more accurate than you are in order to improve. There is nothing worse than missing and not knowing whether it was the gun/ammo or you. I was taught to work on calling every shot as to target impact before looking. It forces you pay attention to basics and saves lots of ammo. I tried some the action shooting as well as pins and don't do as well as others because I am just too hung up on being accurate. I don't shoot as fast as most, but I will more than likely hit what I am aiming at the first time. You seem to be off to good start. Decide on what makes you happy a do it. Everyone finds enjoyment in different disciplines. My wife says shooting or watching Bullseye is like watching paint dry. She goes through lots of ammo and her idea is "If you want to shoot 50yds, you should have brought your 10/22 not that silly handgun. Have fun.

David E
October 26, 2013, 07:55 PM
Shooting good groups (the subject of this thread) is about (and only about) the fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control. The shooter gives themselves every opportunity to shoot a good group by removing all excuses (e.g. time constraints, sub-optimal target, score, etc.). No BS - it's just you, your gun and your fundamentals. Take all the time you need. If a shooter shoots good groups with fast splits, great.

I didn't say not to take your time. I didn't mention splits at all, much less fast ones.

I DID say not to take one micro-second longer than necessary to make the shot. If everything is correct to take the shot at the 3 second mark, why not take it? Don't wait until the 10 second mark to take the shot that would hit in exactly the same place, had you taken the shot at the 3 second mark.

Or, if it takes you 9 seconds to align things just so, take the shot at 9 seconds, not 10

TreeDoc
October 27, 2013, 01:50 AM
Paper plate at 5-7 yards and point shoot with a J-frame. May practice a longer shot at 15-20 yards on slow fire but not often, don't think I would ever be up to a 'rescue shot'.

4895
October 27, 2013, 04:22 PM
I feel that if you can cover a 5 shot group with your fist from 0-15 yards, that to me is an acceptable group. I can't shoot a pistol real good but realistic expectations are important. Whether you are shooting for hunting, SD, or fun, if you were unarmed a fist strike would be your obvious 'other' method of contact with a target. Solid practice should improve your groups but most people don't shoot more than once a month to attain a superior level of proficiency with a particular weapon. Hats off to anyone who can devote that much time to their hobby.

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