Pellets and powder.


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Wired Wrong
October 11, 2013, 06:10 PM
Hey folks need your knowledge. Will 2 50g triple seven pellets shoot the same as 100 gr of loose triple seven. I have not had time to shoot and see for myself.Thanks

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RandyRay41
October 11, 2013, 06:42 PM
It should.

Patocazador
October 11, 2013, 08:16 PM
It is sometimes more difficult to ignite the pellets.

Wired Wrong
October 11, 2013, 08:54 PM
I should have said, will the point of impact be the same or close with pellets and powder, same grain.

rodwha
October 11, 2013, 09:09 PM
I'm not so sure they are the same. But I'm not positive. I've seen some comparisons by others that seem to show it isn't the same thing.

I'd prefer to use loose powder as it's something you can dial in your accuracy, but it's just so much cheaper. Sure the pellets are easier to deal with, but I've seen some groups with these lousy RB's that would blow your mind! They don't use pellets.

Jim, West PA
October 14, 2013, 10:26 AM
Knowing what type of firearm you plan to do this in would make it far easier to answer your question.

Wired Wrong
October 14, 2013, 11:38 AM
Sorry about that Jim,It's a CVA Optima 50 cal.

351 WINCHESTER
October 14, 2013, 12:31 PM
Every gun is different. The only way to know for sure would be to shoot it.

moonax
October 19, 2013, 05:56 AM
No shooting match has been won using pellets.looose powder is the way to go.

whosyrdaddy
October 19, 2013, 05:11 PM
I should have said, will the point of impact be the same or close with pellets and powder, same grain.

Theoretically speaking, the answer would be no due to the fact that regular 777 50 gr pellets are designed to produce velocities nearly identical to that of 50 gr of real BP. Since loose 777 must be reduced 15% by volume to match the velocities of equal volumes of real BP, (2) 50 gr pellets should theoretically equate to 85 gr of loose 777.

However. in the real world, many other factors come into play affecting the point of impact.

Rattus58
October 19, 2013, 06:23 PM
Theoretically speaking, the answer would be no due to the fact that regular 777 50 gr pellets are designed to produce velocities nearly identical to that of 50 gr of real BP. Since loose 777 must be reduced 15% by volume to match the velocities of equal volumes of real BP, (2) 50 gr pellets should theoretically equate to 85 gr of loose 777.

However. in the real world, many other factors come into play affecting the point of impact.
Where did you get that information from? I don't think I read that anywhere, nor is it on the Hodgdon website regarding triple 7.

It does say that Triple Seven is a high energy powder and that it should have loads reduced by 15% to approximate black powder loads but it doesn't say anything about pellets equating to black powder that I can find and on top of that, pellets are made specifically for shotgun 209 primers.

I'm thinking that 50 grains of triple seven is the same as 50 grain pellets as they sit in the box. Pellets are as precise as loose powder and the combinations available to day just about give you any combination you would want with a 209 primer gun. 30,50,60,80,90,100,110,120.... if you need any 5's or 70... go loose... :cool:

msnden
October 19, 2013, 06:48 PM
Yes, I would think it would be very similar, I have an TC Omega & a Knight Revolution, for my use it makes little difference whether using pellets or loose trip 7. using the same bullet weight I find them both acceptable, I have never had an ignition problem with either, just keep in mind 777 is measured by volume not weight

Wired Wrong
October 19, 2013, 08:12 PM
Thanks for all the replies, I have not had time to get back to then range yet to find out for sure.

whosyrdaddy
October 20, 2013, 10:52 AM
Where did you get that information from? I don't think I read that anywhere, nor is it on the Hodgdon website regarding triple 7.

Well then, I guess that settles it. If YOU have never read this anywhere, and Hodgdon chose not to specifically disclose the information on their website, it must not be true.

alsaqr
October 20, 2013, 12:28 PM
Triple Seven pellets generate about the same power as Pyrodex pellets. Hodgdon covers both in the same loading chart:

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

Rattus58
October 20, 2013, 01:32 PM
Well then, I guess that settles it. If YOU have never read this anywhere, and Hodgdon chose not to specifically disclose the information on their website, it must not be true.

I have not read that ANYWHERE.... and specifically not on their website which does SPECIFICALLY say that you need somewhere on the order of 15% reduction to approximate velocities. So you are FREE to post your links to any AUTHORITY on what Hodgdon does with their powders and FURTHER I don't believe just from a PRACTICAL standpoint why Hodgdon would be trying to approximate BLACK POWDER in their pellets when their pellets are specifically made for 209 ignition.... something you rarely see black powder in, and you get more for less with Triple Seven.... You're saying that compared to their loose powder that they are going to "reduce the energy"?

Lastly, which Commercial Black Powder is Hodgdon trying to be just like? Is it Goex? Is it Elephant? WANO? Swiss?

Forgive me.... If Hodgdon doesn't say it, I haven't read it anywhere, and that YOU ARE THE SINGLE ONLY SOURCE of that information that I've been able to access, that I'll continue to operate under the assumption that Triple Seven is still more powerful than typical Black Powder, stands on its own, and PELLETS are in no way meant to be less energy than an equal amount of loose triple seven!.

I am always willing to learn something though, so if you can provide some authoritative documentation that 50 grains of loose triple seven is 15% more powerful than are 50 grains of pelletized Triple Seven I'd find that most interesting.

Aloha.... :cool:

whosyrdaddy
October 20, 2013, 01:40 PM
I'll continue to operate under the assumption that ...................... PELLETS are in no way meant to be less energy than an equal amount of loose triple seven!.

Please do.

BowerR64
October 21, 2013, 03:21 AM
Has anyone see the pistol T7 pellets? ive yet to see any

BullSlinger
October 21, 2013, 10:14 PM
I did not know that 777 was available in pistol charge or calibers. I would give em a try at least once.

Sin City Shootist
October 26, 2013, 03:03 PM
Rattus, the entire premise of the manufacturing of Pyrodex and 777 (and others now...) was to approximate BP AND offer a cleaner burning, non-corrosive (less corrosive is more accurate in my opinion) propellant for BP firearms. At the same time, BP and the various BP Substitutes are NOT, grain for grain, charge for charge, or pound for pound equivalent, nor should one expect identical results when using either or both propellants. That's all the posters kind enough to answer your questions have done their best to advise you. Can you get the same results from time to time or even on a somewhat consistent basis? Sure! However, the factors bringing the results in ANY case, irrespective of BP use or BP Substitute use are many and varied and are NOT relative ONLY to the type, brand, or grain weight/volume measure of the propellant in use at any given time.

Hope this helps your understanding a bit more...

Rattus58
October 27, 2013, 04:47 AM
Rattus, the entire premise of the manufacturing of Pyrodex and 777 (and others now...) was to approximate BP AND offer a cleaner burning, non-corrosive (less corrosive is more accurate in my opinion) propellant for BP firearms. At the same time, BP and the various BP Substitutes are NOT, grain for grain, charge for charge, or pound for pound equivalent, nor should one expect identical results when using either or both propellants. That's all the posters kind enough to answer your questions have done their best to advise you. Can you get the same results from time to time or even on a somewhat consistent basis? Sure! However, the factors bringing the results in ANY case, irrespective of BP use or BP Substitute use are many and varied and are NOT relative ONLY to the type, brand, or grain weight/volume measure of the propellant in use at any given time.

Hope this helps your understanding a bit more... Where did you feel my understanding of Black Powder and the various substitutes was in my mind a question? :D :cool:

Malachi Leviticus Blue
October 27, 2013, 06:51 AM
... Will 2 50g triple seven pellets shoot the same as 100 gr of loose triple seven...

No

777 pellets are designed to shoot the same as Pyrodex pellets to make switching over to them easier. Hodgdon says so right on their website

hodgdon.com/... (http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven.html#)

777 Pellets are only recommended for use with 209 primers, so if you use caps you may have problems. Also not for use with Patched round balls.

You can view quite a bit of ballistic comparison data on Hodgdon's web site of 777 powder vrs 777 pellets vrs Pyrodex powder vrs pyrodex pellets that makes it clear to expect different vellocities between 777 powder and 777 pellets.

follow this link...
http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

then click the disclaimer and click "Get Muzzle loading Data" to view

Rattus58
October 27, 2013, 02:23 PM
No

777 pellets are designed to shoot the same as Pyrodex pellets to make switching over to them easier. Hodgdon says so right on their website

hodgdon.com/... (http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven.html#)

777 Pellets are only recommended for use with 209 primers, so if you use caps you may have problems. Also not for use with Patched round balls.

You can view quite a bit of ballistic comparison data on Hodgdon's web site of 777 powder vrs 777 pellets vrs Pyrodex powder vrs pyrodex pellets that makes it clear to expect different vellocities between 777 powder and 777 pellets.

follow this link...
http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

then click the disclaimer and click "Get Muzzle loading Data" to view
While it pains me to have to admit I might have been wrong about triple seven and triple seven pellets being that much less performance wise so that you can't count on going from granular to pellets with any sort of confidence and may have to buy several different pellet types in order to just get velocities close to loose powder.... I would like to ask you to show me on their site where they talk about the performance variables clearly... in other words, 100 grains of loose versus velocity with 2 50 grain pellets.

Aloha... :cool:

Malachi Leviticus Blue
October 27, 2013, 08:17 PM
While it pains me to have to admit I might have been wrong about triple seven and triple seven pellets being that much less performance wise so that you can't count on going from granular to pellets with any sort of confidence and may have to buy several different pellet types in order to just get velocities close to loose powder.... I would like to ask you to show me on their site where they talk about the performance variables clearly... in other words, 100 grains of loose versus velocity with 2 50 grain pellets.

Aloha... :cool:

The link in my previous post takes you to some really great info/data, but Here is a direct Link to 3 Page PDF on the Hodgdon Web Site that I referenced...

muzzleloading_manual
(http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on)

This document lists actual Hodgdon test data, and could give you a good starting point to get an idea how a charge you may be considering will perform.

On page one you can see the first of dozens of examples with a 175 gr "Dead Center" projectile with 2 50gr 777 pellets = 1878 fps velocity. On page two you can see the same projectile loaded with 100 gr 2F 777 achieves 1891 fps velocity.

the Second example that is in both charts is a 200gr T/C Shockwave projectile. 2 50gr 777 pellets = 1876 fps & 100 gr 2F 777 = 1903 fps

Several of the subsequent examples have significantly larger differences in velocity, but some loads might end up being close enough depending on what you are looking for.

These charts also confirm that 100gr of 3F 777 achieves even higher velocities than 100gr 2F 777.

Rattus58
October 27, 2013, 11:45 PM
The link in my previous post takes you to some really great info/data, but Here is a direct Link to 3 Page PDF on the Hodgdon Web Site that I referenced...

muzzleloading_manual
(http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloading_manual_2008.pdf?CHECKBOX_1=on)

This document lists actual Hodgdon test data, and could give you a good starting point to get an idea how a charge you may be considering will perform.

On page one you can see the first of dozens of examples with a 175 gr "Dead Center" projectile with 2 50gr 777 pellets = 1878 fps velocity. On page two you can see the same projectile loaded with 100 gr 2F 777 achieves 1891 fps velocity.

the Second example that is in both charts is a 200gr T/C Shockwave projectile. 2 50gr 777 pellets = 1876 fps & 100 gr 2F 777 = 1903 fps

Several of the subsequent examples have significantly larger differences in velocity, but some loads might end up being close enough depending on what you are looking for.

These charts also confirm that 100gr of 3F 777 achieves even higher velocities than 100gr 2F 777.
Actually you have to research the whole thing to get any sense out of it and getting data for the same bullet is difficult across the powders... such as a 240 XTP for example with Pyrodex/777 and pellets. Not always is 3F more powerful than 2F, as you suggest. The 400 grain TC 400 grain bone crusher with 100 grains of 2F is higher velocity than 3F. There were many other examples as well.

As I read this, 777 is more energy than Pyrodex P or RS. What surprised me is on their loading data page for pellets, they make the confusing statement that "Pyrodex and Triple Seven Pellets were developed to give the same pressure and velocity with the volume equivalent measure.
Therefore, they use the same data. Our standard data was developed using 24" barrels ..... "

But on the other hand, if you worked up loads to 100 grains with 777 2F, lets say for a 240 Hornady XTP, you can't find the data with pellets. And this is rampant. So lets take the 240 hornady and with 777 3F = 1927 fps. Well and Good! Pyrodex P is 1775 fps as expected. 100 grains of volume of Pellet, though is none existent. So next maybe best is the 240 Precision Extreme or the 245 BAR Spit Fire at 1703 and 1785 respectively. The BAR is one of those where you can't find the data amongst the 3 powders available... Pyrodex, 777, and pellets.... and neither is the Dead Center 175 grain bullet.

The end result is that it is difficult to determine from these tables what is what and as usual, it is probably best to work up your own loads and it certainly looks like granular is superior to the pellets, which in my opinion is somewhat of a gimmick and a poor performing one at that.

Aloha... :cool:

RandyRay41
October 28, 2013, 12:10 AM
Chrony'd my Accura v 2 today. Using the 250 gr barnes over 3 50gr,T7 plellets

Shot at 2118 fps. Not bad with a 250. Gr projectile

Plus it grouped well at 100 yards. 3 shots bout 1 and 1/2 groups

Rattus58
October 28, 2013, 01:16 AM
Chrony'd my Accura v 2 today. Using the 250 gr barnes over 3 50gr,T7 plellets

Shot at 2118 fps. Not bad with a 250. Gr projectile

Plus it grouped well at 100 yards. 3 shots bout 1 and 1/2 groups
Have you ever tried to use granular at all? Pretty decent groups and I'm surprised with preloaded pellets actually....

Aloha... :cool:

Malachi Leviticus Blue
October 28, 2013, 05:52 AM
Actually you have to research the whole thing to get any sense out of it and getting data for the same bullet is difficult across the powders... such as a 240 XTP for example with Pyrodex/777 and pellets. Not always is 3F more powerful than 2F, as you suggest. The 400 grain TC 400 grain bone crusher with 100 grains of 2F is higher velocity than 3F. There were many other examples as well.

As I read this, 777 is more energy than Pyrodex P or RS. What surprised me is on their loading data page for pellets, they make the confusing statement that "Pyrodex and Triple Seven Pellets were developed to give the same pressure and velocity with the volume equivalent measure.
Therefore, they use the same data. Our standard data was developed using 24" barrels ..... "

But on the other hand, if you worked up loads to 100 grains with 777 2F, lets say for a 240 Hornady XTP, you can't find the data with pellets. And this is rampant. So lets take the 240 hornady and with 777 3F = 1927 fps. Well and Good! Pyrodex P is 1775 fps as expected. 100 grains of volume of Pellet, though is none existent. So next maybe best is the 240 Precision Extreme or the 245 BAR Spit Fire at 1703 and 1785 respectively. The BAR is one of those where you can't find the data amongst the 3 powders available... Pyrodex, 777, and pellets.... and neither is the Dead Center 175 grain bullet.

The end result is that it is difficult to determine from these tables what is what and as usual, it is probably best to work up your own loads and it certainly looks like granular is superior to the pellets, which in my opinion is somewhat of a gimmick and a poor performing one at that.

Aloha... :cool:

In both the examples I referenced the charts show that 100gr of 3F 777 achieved higher velocities than 100gr 2F 777, performance varies with other projectiles. My point is, based on the OP, the data clearly shows that it would be unreasonable to assume that 2 50gr 777 pellets will perform identically to 100gr of loose 777 powder. Folks should work out their own load in each firearm.

Rattus58
October 28, 2013, 03:55 PM
In both the examples I referenced the charts show that 100gr of 3F 777 achieved higher velocities than 100gr 2F 777, performance varies with other projectiles. My point is, based on the OP, the data clearly shows that it would be unreasonable to assume that 2 50gr 777 pellets will perform identically to 100gr of loose 777 powder. Folks should work out their own load in each firearm.
I wasn't criticizing you, so I hope that wasn't the way it was meant to be taken... if that is how it came off, I sincerely apologize. What I was pointing out was that Hodgdon for some reason didn't take the bullets tried all the way... Pyrodex/777/pellets and it makes using the table almost non-functioning in many cases.

The statements of volume (which pellets clearly are not) would at first blush, as I took it to mean as an inaccurate assumption, gave me the impression that pellets were the same as loose... and is almost the case with Pyordex but still not quite.

Personally I don't know why anyone would use pellets, but then I'm not in marketing, I'm into shooting.... and tinkering... and well ... :D

Much Aloha... :cool:

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