Glock 22 vs. Bersa Thunder 40...Help me close the "sale" to my beginner friend....


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saturno_v
October 15, 2013, 11:35 PM
I'm "coaching" a friend of mine into firearms and I took him to the range few times....it has decided to get a pistol for SD, full size.

He absolutely love to shoot my Bersa Thunder 40, fits right in its hand, he is accurate with it, just feels right and it is in its budget to get a new one....but it still feels the "gravitational pull" of brand name and advertising, movies and TV shows, "peer pressure" of other friend gunners about getting a Glock, because the Glock is the ultimate pistol for SD, "cops use Glocks" and bla bla bla, you know the drill....

I told him all the reasons why, in my opinion, my Bersa or several other full metal SA/DA pistol are superior/higher grade pistols, from the "metal feel" in your hand, which he agrees, (as we know plastic pistol are not necessarily technically inferior but in the "feel and aesthetic" department they are just plastic in my book) the flexibility and safety of the action, etc....

The frustrating thing is that he understands perfectly all of this and I told him about the great Customer Service from Bersa in the unlikely event of needing support.

He even agrees that the Thunder 40 look way nicer....still undecided if to get a Glock...I even told him that if he really feels strongly about brands he should wait a little, increase his budget and get a SIG (or a used SIG right now) which he likes also.

Any more things I could tell him to sway him?? Obviously I do not expect any suggestions from Glock fans!!! :evil:

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newglockguy
October 15, 2013, 11:54 PM
Well I'm a glock fan and if your buddy really loves how the bersa feels and shoots then he should stick with that

Teachu2
October 16, 2013, 02:19 AM
Shoot both back-to-back. One will speak to him. If all he's shot is a Bersa, it's the best gun he's shot. And the worst.

saturno_v
October 16, 2013, 03:23 AM
Shoot both back-to-back. One will speak to him. If all he's shot is a Bersa, it's the best gun he's shot. And the worst.

He shot several guns and he like the Bersa within its budget...even more than the Glock but still think the Glock may be the better choice even if he recognize the Bersa advantages and he likes the gin better....very conditioned by Glock popularity...I told him you are buying a pistol not a brand...

rskent
October 16, 2013, 05:23 AM
Do you think there just might be a reason that Glocks are so popular? :rolleyes:

Takem406
October 16, 2013, 06:56 AM
A Glock vs a what??? That's easy!

ole farmerbuck
October 16, 2013, 06:58 AM
A Glock vs a what??? That's easy!
Yep, better grab the 'what'. :)

45_auto
October 16, 2013, 08:12 AM
I told him all the reasons why, in my opinion, my Bersa or several other full metal SA/DA pistol are superior/higher grade pistols, from the "metal feel" in your hand, which he agrees, (as we know plastic pistol are not necessarily technically inferior but in the "feel and aesthetic" department they are just plastic in my book) the flexibility and safety of the action, etc.

Sounds that he may be in the majority of the population who correctly believe that the "metal feel" (weight) and clunky SA/DA action are disadvantages rather than advantages.

tommy.duncan
October 16, 2013, 08:15 AM
I like the Glocks and Sigs, etc. Your friend needs to by what feels good in his hand. What he shoots best with. Remember, if it doesn't feel right he won't shoot it. He will be less accurate with it.

RmB
October 16, 2013, 08:29 AM
Why no love for the M&P 40? It's just as "high grade:scrutiny:" as a Sig in my opinion. Not sure about the Bersa, have never owned one.

hentown
October 16, 2013, 08:48 AM
Comparing a Glock to a Bersa is kind of like comparing a Mercedes to a Yugo. Bersa is in no way close to the same class of pistol as a Glock Hopefully the friend will be smart enough to follow his gut and buy a Glock.

David E
October 16, 2013, 08:52 AM
You're trying to sway your friend into a Bersa and away from Glock?

Sounds like you're worried that your friend will have a better gun than you.

Glock or S&W or XD/XDM are light years ahead of Bersa.

jjones45
October 16, 2013, 09:10 AM
the glock will have more parts and accessories readily available if that matters. the glock brand is also a more proven gun. this does not mean the bersa is not a good gun. but like you said its a budget gun and you kind of get what you pay for to a certain extent. like previously post why not throw the m&p and sr in the mix? make it more interesting


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saturno_v
October 16, 2013, 10:10 AM
Comparing a Glock to a Bersa is kind of like comparing a Mercedes to a Yugo. Bersa is in no way close to the same class of pistol as a Glock Hopefully the friend will be smart enough to follow his gut and buy a Glock.

You're trying to sway your friend into a Bersa and away from Glock?

Sounds like you're worried that your friend will have a better gun than you.

Glock or S&W or XD/XDM are light years ahead of Bersa.

I thought my post was not intended for not informed Glock fans. :)... do you even know what a Bersa Thunder (I mean the full size series not the much more popular 380) look like let alone shot one??

wow6599
October 16, 2013, 11:54 AM
Comparing a Glock to a Bersa is kind of like comparing a Mercedes to a Yugo.

IMO, not really. More like comparing a Toyota to a Kia.

I have owned a couple of Bersa firearms in the past and really liked them. Glocks, not so much - but I do have a G20 SF because I like 10mm.

If he likes the Bersa, he should get it. IIRC, they also have a lifetime warranty to the original owner.

Deaf Smith
October 16, 2013, 12:04 PM
The Glock is a well tested COMBAT pistol. Used by hundreds of thousands of police, used by militaries all over the world, and is about as tested as can be.

The Bersa is, uh, what?

Yes let him shoot both, in the same cartridge, side by side. 9mm for 9mm. .40 for .40.

Then let him decide. Don't push him in one direction for if the gun does not work out it becomes YOUR FAULT.

And you will be blamed.

Deaf

saturno_v
October 16, 2013, 12:09 PM
The Glock is a well tested COMBAT pistol. Used by hundreds of thousands of police, used by militaries all over the world, and is about as tested as can be.

The Bersa is, uh, what?

Yes let him shoot both, in the same cartridge, side by side. 9mm for 9mm. .40 for .40.

Then let him decide. Don't push him in one direction for if the gun does not work out it becomes YOUR FAULT.

And you will be blamed.

Deaf


The Bersa Thunder is a proven combat pistol too, used by several police and military forces in Latin America...just to be clear...

The fact is the he basically likes the Bersa more (he prefer the look of it, the fact that is metal and he feels more comfortable with the action) but still undecided about the Glock....if it wasn't for the brand and popularity he would have bought the Bersa already...

Next step is trying a CZ-75 maybe this weekend.

red04montels
October 16, 2013, 12:27 PM
I think this kind of follows what others have said, but if your friend is comfortable with one gun more than another, even if that other gun is made of gold, he should go with the one that he is more comfortable, accurate and overall better at using.

madFive
October 16, 2013, 12:40 PM
I have lots of input on this, but probably nothing you want to hear. :P Bottom line, there's really no reason to limit the options to the two listed.

I'm not that familiar with Bersa - had to look it up.
http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/thunder-pro-series.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersa (made in Argentina)
They actually look pretty good; the 9/40 models look a little like BHP knockoffs to me, which is not a bad start. I would honestly take one of these over a striker-fired gun like Glock or M&P, but if I was going the metal route, I'd go with a better brand like Browning, CZ, Walther, or a Baby Eagle for this type of gun to make sure I was getting reliable quality.

Also, for better plastic guns that are still in his price range, check out Sig-2022 and Beretta PX4.

Lastly, why 40? I'd stick w/ 9mm. With the right JHP ammo he'll get the same performance in defensive rounds, cheaper plinking rounds, and the recoil characteristics are MUCH friendlier for a new shooter. Stick with 9mm, there's very little reason not to. He will enjoy practicing more and will get more proficient with his new gun much faster.

saturno_v
October 16, 2013, 01:03 PM
I have lots of input on this, but probably nothing you want to hear. :P Bottom line, there's really no reason to limit the options to the two listed.

I'm not that familiar with Bersa - had to look it up.
http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/...ro-series.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersa (made in Argentina)
They actually look pretty good; the 9/40 models look a little like BHP knockoffs to me, which is not a bad start. I would honestly take one of these over a striker-fired gun like Glock or M&P, but if I was going the metal route, I'd go with a better brand like Browning, CZ, Walther, or a Baby Eagle for this type of gun to make sure I was getting reliable quality.

Also, for better plastic guns that are still in his price range, check out Sig-2022 and Beretta PX4.

Lastly, why 40? I'd stick w/ 9mm. With the right JHP ammo he'll get the same performance in defensive rounds, cheaper plinking rounds, and the recoil characteristics are MUCH friendlier for a new shooter. Stick with 9mm, there's very little reason not to. He will enjoy practicing more and will get more proficient with his new gun much faster.

The Thunder full size line is actually partially based on the Walther P-88 not the BHP

My friend will try a CZ-75 this weekend, I already proposed to him to wait and get a new SIG or buy a used SIG if the right deal comes around if he really feelts uncomfortable with the Bersa brand.

He does not like Rugers.

19-3Ben
October 16, 2013, 01:17 PM
Any more things I could tell him to sway him?? Obviously I do not expect any suggestions from Glock fans!!!
....
The fact is the he basically likes the Bersa more (he prefer the look of it, the fact that is metal and he feels more comfortable with the action) but still undecided about the Glock....if it wasn't for the brand and popularity he would have bought the Bersa already...

Or maybe.... and call me crazy here... what if your friend is a responsible adult, and you just let him buy whatever he WANTS to buy with his money. You can offer all kinds of suggestions IF HE WANTS THEM so that he can make an educated decision, but it's his decision to make. Not yours, and it's not your job to sell him or sway him.
Besides, there are many different styles of guns, with different actions and different materials. if he likes striker-fire but wants a metal frame, he should look into Kahr. If he wants DA/SA but prefers plastic there is the FN series, etc... etc...
Too many nuances for you to try to sell him on a specific make and model.

Fishbed77
October 16, 2013, 03:13 PM
Do you think there just might be a reason that Glocks are so popular?

Sure - because they are sold for very cheap to police departments (since they are so cheap to produce), and Glock has leveraged police department use into a very successful commercial marketing campaign.

The Bersa Thunder is heavily based on the Walther P88, which is one of the finest double-stack designs of all time. The Walther's problem was that it was TOO good, and thus too expensive to manufacture and market successfully.

That said, I'd pick the G22 because parts and accessories can be found everywhere.

wow6599
October 16, 2013, 03:20 PM
Sure - because they are sold for very cheap to police departments (since they are so cheap to produce), and Glock has leveraged police department use into a very successful commercial marketing campaign.


Yep.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm31/wow6599/Still2a.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/wow6599/media/Still2a.jpg.html)

Ledgehammer
October 16, 2013, 03:51 PM
Glocks hold their value Better than other duty pistol. If he ever wants to resell the gun this is important. You can sell glocks in one or two days online.

David E
October 16, 2013, 07:59 PM
Yeah, I've shot Bersas before. Jammomatic

saturno_v
October 16, 2013, 09:29 PM
Yeah, I've shot Bersas before. Jammomatic


You were particularly unlucky to find a Bersa jammomatic...or this is the internet and anybody can say whatever they want....;)

Kayaker 1960
October 16, 2013, 10:23 PM
I've never even held a Bersa pistol. I've had a Gen 3 Glock model 22 for about 20 years. It's not pretty, it does indeed feel just a little blocky in my hand. That being said, it just plain works. I've shot competition with it, put thousands of rounds through it and it just keeps working. Accuracy is good, it's not too heavy and it's so reliable it's down right boring.
As far as the 9mm vs .40 The "9mm is just as good" argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. Shoot anything with each of them and it's very easy to see that the .40 hits harder and knocks things down faster.

hentown
October 17, 2013, 08:51 AM
Zounds

wow6599
October 17, 2013, 09:27 AM
I'd have to question the judgment of a trainee who's taking lessons from a guy who prefers a Bersa to a Glock.

You own a Glock?

David E
October 17, 2013, 04:17 PM
You were particularly unlucky to find a Bersa jammomatic...or this is the internet and anybody can say whatever they want....;)
We took video. It jammed for the owner, my friend and me.

Doing a quick search on the problem turned up quite a few other folks experiencing the same jamming problem. Hate to break it to you. :rolleyes:

But you can keep pretending all Bersas are perfect, or that parts/mags/accessories are plentiful, cheap and easy to find..... but that changes nothing.

IdahoSkies
October 17, 2013, 04:38 PM
Get as many guns into his hand as you can. Let him choose. Most semi-autos these days are really very reliable, as long as you take care of them in some way. You can't leave them in a drawer for ages like a revolver.

If he likes the bersa, but wants a brand. But the CZ in his hand and let the magic happen.

saturno_v
October 17, 2013, 11:01 PM
We took video. It jammed for the owner, my friend and me.

Doing a quick search on the problem turned up quite a few other folks experiencing the same jamming problem. Hate to break it to you.

But you can keep pretending all Bersas are perfect, or that parts/mags/accessories are plentiful, cheap and easy to find..... but that changes nothing.


One of the few unfortunate specimen then, Bersa CS will fix it for you....a quick Internet search will reveal how reliable and well built these guns are with very satisfied customers, just the finishing is a bit utilitarian (more in the past than now)......it's like bad mouthing Glock because of the Kabooms....

And they are not longer cheap by the way, their full size line is priced a breathing distance from comparable CZ pistols nowadays....

Magazine are pricey it's true but they are also well built....metal followers insted of plastic for example, at least for their full size Thunder line.

ole farmerbuck
October 17, 2013, 11:17 PM
I have 2 Bersa 380's identical. I'd take them over a Glock anyday. Very very accurate and just as reliable.

Deaf Smith
October 17, 2013, 11:56 PM
The Bersa Thunder is a proven combat pistol too, used by several police and military forces in Latin America...just to be clear...

The fact is the he basically likes the Bersa more (he prefer the look of it, the fact that is metal and he feels more comfortable with the action) but still undecided about the Glock....if it wasn't for the brand and popularity he would have bought the Bersa already...

Next step is trying a CZ-75 maybe this weekend.
Well while the Bersa may be used in Latin America, Glock is used throughout the world.

Australian Royal Air Force, Austrian Armed Forces, Finland Defense Forces, French Army, French Navy, Georgia Special Forces, Latvian military, Lebanese Army, Lithuanian Armed Forces, Malaysian Armed Forces, Military of Montenegro, Military of the Netherlands, Royal Norwegian Army, Polish Military, Portuguese Marine Corps and Republican National Guard, Swedish Armed Forces.

Even some U.S. forces use Glocks (mostly as personal choice.)

And of course a huge percentage of the local, state, and federal police in the U.S. use Glocks.

Longer more detailed list of military and police use of Glocks here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

Like I said, combat tested since 1980 (and that is now over 30 years!)

Deaf

saturno_v
October 18, 2013, 03:03 AM
Well while the Bersa may be used in Latin America, Glock is used throughout the world.

Australian Royal Air Force, Austrian Armed Forces, Finland Defense Forces, French Army, French Navy, Georgia Special Forces, Latvian military, Lebanese Army, Lithuanian Armed Forces, Malaysian Armed Forces, Military of Montenegro, Military of the Netherlands, Royal Norwegian Army, Polish Military, Portuguese Marine Corps and Republican National Guard, Swedish Armed Forces.

Even some U.S. forces use Glocks (mostly as personal choice.)

And of course a huge percentage of the local, state, and federal police in the U.S. use Glocks.

Longer more detailed list of military and police use of Glocks here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

Like I said, combat tested since 1980 (and that is now over 30 years!)

Deaf


Nobody dispute they are accurate and reliable...but they are also very cheap to purchase for military forces and police agency which expain a lot of the success

Read the book "Glock: The Rise of America's Gun" by Paul M. Barrett, a very well articulated and deep look at Glock success....simple mechanics, very good reliability and accuracy but also very shrewd marketing, very heavy advertisement and product promotion (very insightful the part about conquering Hollywood) and extremely aggressive government clients pricing and buyback policies...particularly interesting the section which describe the huge difference in prices between what a civilian pay for a Glock and what police departments pay for them...in the civilian market, pricing them too low may have created the perception that they were not good quality guns turning off some potential buyers. (When a lower price reduce the "desireability effects).

http://www.amazon.com/Glock-Americas-Paul-M-Barrett/dp/0307719952/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382079760&sr=1-1

Compare that with an almost family shop (considering the size) like Bersa which does not spend a penny in advertisement and does not have a fraction of the commercial resources to do what Glock did to promote their products.

JDR
October 19, 2013, 06:37 AM
Take the G-22 & the Bersa to the range & give 'em the crap ammo test; get a couple boxes of .40 Tulammo, and .40 Win Whitebox, and then see which one groups the target better, and doesn't choke on this crap ammo! Guess which one I put my wallet money on!

DanTheFarmer
October 19, 2013, 07:04 AM
JDR,

I can't guess which one you'd choose. That's the point. Both are good pistols and are likely to function well.

I've got several Bersas (380's, 9mm's, and 45 ACP's) that are very reliable. I don't have any experience with Glocks but I can't imagine they'd have the loyal following that they do if they were unreliable.

Bersas fit my hands better than the Glocks I've handled in gun stores. Plus I like an external safety so Bersas work well for me. Others may have different experiences and preferences and we all get to vote with our dollars.

Dan

Kiln
October 19, 2013, 07:28 AM
Do you think there just might be a reason that Glocks are so popular? :rolleyes:
Excellent marketing and rap music?

JDR
October 19, 2013, 08:28 AM
I've got several Bersas (380's, 9mm's, and 45 ACP's) that are very reliable. I don't have any experience with Glocks but I can't imagine they'd have the loyal following that they do if they were unreliable.

I'm O.K. with the Bersa in 9mm, but I don't like it in .40. You don't own it it .40. The .40 is a different animal than the calibers you have. In My Humble Opinion, I can manage the snappy recoil of most of the .40 S&W caliber factory ammo that is out there, with my Glock 22 than I can with most other 40's including the Bersa. BTW, I have a Sig P226-40 and an H&K USP 40 to compare to the G-22.

dwhite
October 19, 2013, 08:39 AM
Need to tell him he's done shooting yours. If he wants to shoot something, he needs to get something .

All the Best,
D. White

miles1
October 19, 2013, 09:36 AM
I've never even held a Bersa pistol. I've had a Gen 3 Glock model 22 for about 20 years. It's not pretty, it does indeed feel just a little blocky in my hand. That being said, it just plain works. I've shot competition with it, put thousands of rounds through it and it just keeps working. Accuracy is good, it's not too heavy and it's so reliable it's down right boring.
As far as the 9mm vs .40 The "9mm is just as good" argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. Shoot anything with each of them and it's very easy to see that the .40 hits harder and knocks things down faster.
Please don't go their with the 9 vs 40 debate.Theres already enough threads on this to last a lifetime.You like your 40 and like my 9.See, that wasn't so bad now was it?

David E
October 19, 2013, 11:03 AM
If Bersas (Bersi?) cost almost as much as other top brands, but have pricey, hard to find parts, what exactly are you gaining?

Marketing or not, if Glocks didn't work, then no amount of "shrewd marketing" could change that. But they do work under all kinds of hostile conditions, so the hype isn't really hype after all.

If your friend wants a good value, then he should consider Ruger and the S&W economy line.

Deaf Smith
October 19, 2013, 12:16 PM
Nobody dispute they are accurate and reliable...but they are also very cheap to purchase for military forces and police agency which expain a lot of the success

Read the book "Glock: The Rise of America's Gun" by Paul M. Barrett, a very well articulated and deep look at Glock success....simple mechanics, very good reliability and accuracy but also very shrewd marketing, very heavy advertisement and product promotion (very insightful the part about conquering Hollywood) and extremely aggressive government clients pricing and buyback policies...particularly interesting the section which describe the huge difference in prices between what a civilian pay for a Glock and what police departments pay for them...in the civilian market, pricing them too low may have created the perception that they were not good quality guns turning off some potential buyers. (When a lower price reduce the "desireability effects).

http://www.amazon.com/Glock-Americas-Paul-M-Barrett/dp/0307719952/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382079760&sr=1-1

Compare that with an almost family shop (considering the size) like Bersa which does not spend a penny in advertisement and does not have a fraction of the commercial resources to do what Glock did to promote their products.
Well I would agree with you except Chuck Taylor got many a service gun and then sent them to the bottom of San Diego harbor for a few months, Alaska deep freeze for months, deserts for months. He bake, broiled, roasted, froze, buried, etc.. them all and found only a few would work 'every time' (to paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones.)

1911s, Glocks, and S&W N frame 27s passed the test. All others didn't.

And the Glock, in the sea test, didn't even rust except the little stainless pin and spring right behind the extractor.

He also has a 1st gen Glock with over 175,000 rounds.

Deaf

wow6599
October 19, 2013, 01:18 PM
He bake, broiled, roasted, froze, buried, etc.

Was he hoping to prove that grandma's cooking would hurt a firearm? That's the stupidest test I've heard of.

Roasted a pistol......

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 01:43 PM
If Bersas (Bersi?) cost almost as much as other top brands, but have pricey, hard to find parts, what exactly are you gaining?


I do not think Bersa parts are generally particularly expensive (yes magazines are a bit pricey but, as I said, they are well built)...maybe a bit harder to find than more popular pistols.

They still have a bit of a cost advantage compared to other quality full metal pistol SA/DA pistols.

Much better trigger for example than Ruger semi, S&W cheap line or Taurus.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 01:53 PM
But they do work under all kinds of hostile conditions, so the hype isn't really hype after all.


Well I would agree with you except Chuck Taylor got many a service gun and then sent them to the bottom of San Diego harbor for a few months, Alaska deep freeze for months, deserts for months. He bake, broiled, roasted, froze, buried, etc.. them all and found only a few would work 'every time' (to paraphrase Tommy Lee Jones.)



I never disputed their reliability...after all this is pretty much the major Glock selling point...however these extreme unrelistic tests does not diqualify other quality firearms from been considered extremely reliable under all expected realistic conditions....

JDR
October 19, 2013, 01:54 PM
Again, "IMHO" I'd get a newbie shooter started with a full size 9mm not a .40, and if it has to start with a "B" I'm thinking Beretta or Browning (Hi Power)!

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 01:55 PM
Oh good grief. All this angst over a Glock -vs.- ??? thread?

Have him shoot both -- preferably with you not even there -- and then pick one, buy it, and then put 5-10,000 rounds through it.

Then have him get back in touch and tell you what he decided and how happy he is with his choice.

Your enthusiasm for one gun over the other is REALLY not helping him reach success as a shooter, it's getting in his way.

Step back, get your own ego/preferences out of his business, and let him make the best decision for HIM.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 02:43 PM
Oh good grief. All this angst over a Glock -vs.- ??? thread?

Have him shoot both -- preferably with you not even there -- and then pick one, buy it, and then put 5-10,000 rounds through it.

Then have him get back in touch and tell you what he decided and how happy he is with his choice.

Your enthusiasm for one gun over the other is REALLY not helping him reach success as a shooter, it's getting in his way.

Step back, get your own ego/preferences out of his business, and let him make the best decision for HIM.


Sam

I only suggested to him to opt for a DA/SA design which I think is better for a newbie...and which himself tend to prefer anyway (as a type of action) this weekend he's trying a CZ-75

I suggested to him a CZ, a SIG and others other than my Bersa.....he loves my Berettas too but they are too big for him.

David E
October 19, 2013, 02:51 PM
What, exactly, makes a DA/SA better for a new shooter?

A very good case can be made to the contrary.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 03:00 PM
Oh...so a CZ75, where he has to decock by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer? :scrutiny:

GREAT choice for a new guy! :rolleyes:

Or the baked-potato chubby grip of a SIG?

The antiquated DA/SA design is not something to saddle a new guy with figuring out and learning/remembering to use correctly at any rate.

Just get out of his way and let him make a decision. You're doing more harm than good at this point.

Deaf Smith
October 19, 2013, 03:15 PM
Was he hoping to prove that grandma's cooking would hurt a firearm? That's the stupidest test I've heard of.

Roasted a pistol......
I never disputed their reliability...after all this is pretty much the major Glock selling point...however these extreme unrelistic tests does not diqualify other quality firearms from been considered extremely reliable under all expected realistic conditions....

Desert conditions get past 120 degrees easily (in fact near the Red Sea it's 149 degrees.) In fact car temps in the summer can get real high. Thus high temperature test.

The military sometimes work in very hot or very cold or wet or grimy or humid or dry or sandy or salty (corrosive) or any number of combinations.

Thus testing to see what works in all of them and what does not.

Glock is just one of the few that works very well in virtually all adverse conditions.

And that is a big selling point in any defensive pistol.

One does not have to worry about conditions they may 'realistically' encounter. The Glock will take them all.

If one forgets to clean their Glock after a shooting session or bad weather, no biggie. If the Glock runs dry (lubricant that is) no biggie.

Militaries and police of the world buy Glocks for more than just cost reasons.

Deaf

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 03:49 PM
Desert conditions get past 120 degrees easily (in fact near the Red Sea it's 149 degrees.) In fact car temps in the summer can get real high. Thus high temperature test.

The military sometimes work in very hot or very cold or wet or grimy or humid or dry or sandy or salty (corrosive) or any number of combinations.

Thus testing to see what works in all of them and what does not.

Glock is just one of the few that works very well in virtually all adverse conditions.

And that is a big selling point in any defensive pistol.

One does not have to worry about conditions they may 'realistically' encounter. The Glock will take them all.

If one forgets to clean their Glock after a shooting session or bad weather, no biggie. If the Glock runs dry (lubricant that is) no biggie.

Militaries and police of the world buy Glocks for more than just cost reasons.

Deaf


I remember many handgun passed incredible tough torture test....in the 80's the M9 was famous for acing extremely tough sessions...if I remember correctly the Glock 17 lost out on that competition to be the standard sidearm of the US military.....

Glocks are not the first handguns to be able to master such demanding conditions.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 03:52 PM
The antiquated DA/SA design is not something to saddle a new guy with figuring out and learning/remembering to use correctly at any rate.

Just get out of his way and let him make a decision. You're doing more harm than good at this point.


Antiquated?? On what planet do you live?? Please enlighten me since when striker fired semiautos have been around compared to SA/DA design...I'm curious....Do I really have to spell it for you why a DA/SA action is superior for a newbie to handle with one round in the pipe??

One word...trigger control, handling during stressful situations...

Not too mention holster choice flexibility.

What, exactly, makes a DA/SA better for a new shooter?

A very good case can be made to the contrary.


Read above...

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 05:01 PM
Antiquated, as in, surpassed in optimal utility by other designs.

Yes, yes, of course that long DA pull is so very much safer. :rolleyes: At least that's what folks kept saying 30 years ago. Back when the Weaver stance ruled the world and plastic pistols were newfangled novelties. Since then we've evolved a bit. Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene. (Too slowly, IMHO, but only due to nostalgia and inertia.)

(This is a big part of what keeps Sig and H&K where they are as fading memories of their once prominent places in cutting-edge firearms development. Of course SIG at least managed to try and get with the times...by building a copy of a 102 year old design!!! Whoops, maybe they'll get it next time.)

But seriously, your credibility here is in question when you suggest that a newbie should try out a CZ75, which would require him to drop the hammer with his left hand to make is "safer."

And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that. If you can't find a holster for a Glock or M&P or xD or whatever other gun you might want, you sure aren't looking very hard.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 05:15 PM
LOL! When Bersa build a gun FOR CONCEALED CARRY, well look what they came up with: http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/BPCC.html

http://www.bersa.com/skin/frontend/blank/theme063/images/guns/BP-CC-9-mat-L-fram.jpg

This model are highlighted by the following features:

High Impact Polymer Frame
Picatinny rail, polygonal rifling & loaded chamber indicator
Ambidextrous magazine release
Striker fired
Micro-polished bore with sharp, deep rifling
3-dot sight system
Integral Locking System
Automatic firing pin safety
Lifetime service contract

Guess Bersa's one up on SIG, at least!

David E
October 19, 2013, 05:47 PM
I'm curious....Do I really have to spell for you why a DA/SA action is superior for a newbie to handle with one round in the pipe??

One word...trigger control, handling during stressful situations...

Um, why couldn't that apply to a Glock/XD/M&P?

I've worked with trained cops that forgot to decock their Sig, so it's a valid concern, despite your flippant dismissal of it.

I know a Grandmaster that specializes in the CZ platform who has had more than one AD as he lowered the hammer on a live round.

If cops and GM's have issues, so then, I submit, might your gun-newbie friend

Not too mention holster choice flexibility...

I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...

.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 07:33 PM
And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that.


I mean avoiding getting a glock leg with the wrong/worn holster...that is exactly what I mean...google it up....;)

Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene.

Your opinion non substantiated by any fact.....I do not see SIG, Beretta, CZ and others backing away from the DA/SA action for their more expensive product line any time soon...some of them just added few less expensive polymer framed striker fired

LOL! When Bersa build a gun FOR CONCEALED CARRY, well look what they came up with: http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/BPCC.html


Yes..that is the new budget service caliber Bersa offering to run in the tupperware striker fired market.....significantly less expensive then their just as small, Thunder Ultra Compact, this guy here

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=pBNDStgZMkYMBM&tbnid=HtP_sYzrKsxGRM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impactguns.com%2Fdata%2Fdefault%2Fimages%2Fcatalog%2F535%2Fbersa_T9DTP13.jpg&ei=fhljUt-1J43jigL8p4DwAQ&psig=AFQjCNECJ16WUifrt7tKWmzajeX8jyWDVg&ust=1382312702684007

...so and your point is???

Striker fired plastic pistols have their place in the marketplace, usually companies that also produce traditional DA/SA design offer them as budget simpler handgun models....they are simple, accurate and reliable but they are not the best thing since sliced bread as it seems you think they are.....

I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...


hmm...tell me what "obscure" pistol you are referring to...

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 08:15 PM
You carry one int he pipe without safety engaged....Wait...so you don't think it's safe for him to carry a striker-fired non-pre-cocked Glock, but you'd tell him to carry a fully cocked CZ75 without the safety on? :eek:

Do you know how a CZ75 works?


And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that.

I mean avoiding getting a glock leg with the wrong/worn holster...that is exactly what I mean...google it up...."Glock leg" is a silly term for a mistake that doesn't have anything to do with one specific holster or type of holster. In fact, I still don't know what you're talking about, or even insinuating. You don't shoot yourself in the leg (with any gun) because you picked the wrong holster.

Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene.
Your opinion non substantiated by any fact.....I do not see SIG, Beretta, CZ and others backing away from the DA/SA action for their more expensive product line any time soon...
That doesn't mean it isn't a dinosaur.

And you don't see that? Oh realllllly? Meet Beretta's newest offering: The Nano: http://www.berettausa.com/nano/

Meet CZ's CZ-110: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_110

SIG is a hide-bound group who lives entirely on past reputation at this point. (Of course, IMHO.)

Substantive change comes slowly in the conservative firearms world. The fact that striker-fired guns have gained such a huge portion of the market, in the face of the old school stalwarts, shows which way the tide has turned.

Yes..that is the new budget service caliber Bersa offering to run in the tupperware striker fired market.....significantly less expensive then their just as small, Thunder Ultra Compact, this guy here
...so and your point is???That it really doesn't matter what BRAND you choose to love or hate. Others, even your favorite pistol company, see that your old school views don't circumscribe best practices and design. You need to get off your pall's back and let him make his best decision without laying your negative preconceptions on him.

Striker fired plastic pistols have their place in the marketplace, usually companies that also produce traditional DA/SA design offer them as budget simpler handgun models...."Usually?" Oh, is that so? So "usually" ... but not Glock, S&W, or Springfield who sell the most. Or Ruger who just discontinued their P-series? So basically, that whole statement is incorrect.

(And S&W's value line is...ANOTHER STRIKER GUN!)

they are simple, accurate and reliable but they are not the best thing since sliced bread as it seems you think they are.....They are proving themselves to be the "bestest for the mostest." Hitting the sweet spot between safety, accuracy, shootability, reliability, value, etc. That's really how the shooting world changes, you know, when people try things in massive numbers, spread over the whole country, shooting in many different styles and venues, and very large percentages of them find that they succeed more easily and faster with a gun like "x" than with another gun like "y." Glock didn't take over the handgun world with slick police marketing. S&W didn't steal a huge chunk out of Glock's market share by underselling them and good advertising. These things work VERY well for MANY people. BETTER than previous designs. When folks realize that they can do competition, daily carry, LEO duties, etc., etc., BETTER with the plastic fantastic than their old steel DA-first-shot boat anchor ...

And you ragging on and deriding your "friend" because he wants to try one for himself and see if it will work best for him too -- just because you like old style metal guns with hammers -- isn't being a HELP to him.

Which is what I said before.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 08:21 PM
I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...
hmm...tell me what "obscure" pistol you are referring to...
He's suggesting merely that it will be harder to find a variety of holsters that fit any of the Bersas than it will be to pick from the thousands of holsters made for Glocks.

Armor Snail
October 19, 2013, 08:22 PM
1. What is wrong with utilizing condition 1 on a CZ75?

2. There are decocker CZs you know.

3. With a FPB model CZ as long as the trigger has reset it won't go bang if the hammer slips. In fact it will rest itself at half cock. Which is a better spot for carry anyways. It's where a decocker model sets the hammer.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 08:34 PM
1. The OP was extolling the virtues of DA/SA, for the safety factor of that DA first pull. I have no problem with SA guns, C&L, myself.

2. Oh sure. But not a CZ75.

3. Yeah... if the guy does it right. Getting a newbie to do that proper technique might not be simpler and easier -- and more conducive to his safety and success -- than letting him choose a striker-fired gun if he really wants to.

Armor Snail
October 19, 2013, 08:49 PM
1. Fair enough. Could buy a Tanfoglio design and engage the safety on DA. Can't get safer.

2. Correct no 75BD in .40S&W. Although there is the SP01 Tactical available in .40S&W. Hurray for a nice beaver tail and a rail.

3. Buy the SP01 Tactical and no worries.

Well the guy is going to shoot one right?
Never met a person who didn't like the feel of one in the hand out how they shoot. Prices are getting higher though.

Let's add #4
Could go slightly smaller and get a P06.
Or get a poly P07 or P09.
Baby Eagles are great too. The Semi Compact ones are a great size with full size grip and 4" barrel.

JTQ
October 19, 2013, 09:26 PM
Sam 1911's point about the CZ and clone guns (not the decocker models), if you are using them DA/SA, you have to manually lower the hammer to get them to DA. Most would feel that is not a good choice for somebody new to guns. They'd be much better off with a single action, DA/SA with decocker, or a striker fired gun.

For the OP, finding a holster for a Glock 22 is one of the easiest things to find, while you're going to need to do some searching to find a holster for a Bersa, and when you do find them, you will be very limited in your choices. In addition, you can find G22 mags practically everywhere. Bersa mags, not so much.

I'm not a Glock fan. I've never owned one, and it's possible I never will. Heck, I don't even own any polymer guns and never have. This seems like a no brainer question, have your friend, at least if he is your friend, get the Glock.

DanTheFarmer
October 19, 2013, 10:38 PM
We're pretty far afield from the original question which was answered pretty well in the first few posts (if the potential buyer likes and shoots the Bersa best, get it. If he likes and shoots the Glock best, get that instead.) BUT...
As far as DA/SA being antiquated and striker fired pistols being the way to the future, striker fired pistols pre-date DA/SA (1906 Japanese Nambu vs. 1930's German P-38). I'm not an expert on this but I thought the P-38 introduced the world to DA/SA.

Also remember that a lot of old guys on this board remember narrow ties, then wide ties, then narrow ties again. For the ladies, hemlines go up, hemlines go down, then go back up again. DA/SA was the new thing, now striker fired pistols are in fashion. May we all live long enough to see which way the fashion winds blow again.

This is no knock on striker fired pistols, they can work well but they don't represent a one way ticket to small arms perfection. There are other paths to Nirvana as well.

My $0.02.

Dan

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 10:48 PM
That supposes, of course, that the design of mechanical devices is subject entirely to the whims of fashion and does not actually progress toward perfection. (Not the Glock advertising slogan, but rather the unattainable but approachable goal of all refinement.)

That's not something I agree with.

As we study ergonomics, kinesiology, the refinement of shooting training and technique, and even psychology, I believe that we trend toward a smaller and smaller set of deviations clustered around a "bestest for the mostest" theoretical perfect design.

So, no, I really don't think we're going to wander randomly around the spectrum of service handguns and one decade find that DA/SAs are at the top of the heap again, and then three decades further on the best shooters are favoring revolvers, and then next century it's back to SA autos. I don't believe that any more than I believe we'll be riding steam locomotives again soon, or we'll drift back toward rotary-dial telephones and those "penny farthing" bicycles with the one huge wheel up front.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 10:52 PM
Wait...so you don't think it's safe for him to carry a striker-fired non-pre-cocked Glock, but you'd tell him to carry a fully cocked CZ75 without the safety on?

Do you know how a CZ75 works?


Do you know that they make a CZ 75 with a decocker don't you??


http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-bd/


"Glock leg" is a silly term for a mistake that doesn't have anything to do with one specific holster or type of holster. In fact, I still don't know what you're talking about, or even insinuating. You don't shoot yourself in the leg (with any gun) because you picked the wrong holster.



You can shoot yourself in the leg if you pick a wrong/worn holster or for operator mistake with a Glock...negating it does not change that fact that it does happen.....a loaded Glock is more sensitive than a loaded DA/SA for bad fitting worn holster and operator mistake...a fact

That doesn't mean it isn't a dinosaur.

And you don't see that? Oh realllllly? Meet Beretta's newest offering: The Nano: http://www.berettausa.com/nano/



Yes another inexpensive tupperware offer from Beretta as the previous one from Bersa....they are entering that market but they are not exiting building SA/DA pistols as you assume...so, again, your point is???

That it really doesn't matter what BRAND you choose to love or hate.

I do no love or hate any brand period...in my opinion (and not only mine) a SA/DA design is superior to a striker fired pistol for the flexibility that design gives to me...period.

"Usually?" Oh, is that so? So "usually" ... but not Glock, S&W, or Springfield who sell the most. Or Ruger who just discontinued their P-series? So basically, that whole statement is incorrect.


Well, Glock started the whole trend, Springfield I do nto think they ever made SA/DA pistol they just make pistol to compete with Glock and 1911s, Ruger probably discontinued the P Series for cost reasons.

They are proving themselves to be the "bestest for the mostest." Hitting the sweet spot between safety, accuracy, shootability, reliability, value,

Exactly, they are a compromise is today cost obsessed worl....they work, do not get me wrong but is not something I would recommend for a beginner..that is my opinion and is not going to change, my friend can buy whatever he choose....

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 10:54 PM
Do you know that they make a CZ 75 with a decocker don't you??
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-bd/
Sorry, I'd assumed you, or he rather, wanted a .40.

You can shoot yourself in the leg if you pick a wrong/worn holster or for operator mistake with a Glock...negating it does not change that fact that it does happen.....a loaded Glock is more sensitive than a loaded DA/SA for bad fitting worn holster and operator mistake...a factYou can shoot yourself in the leg with ANY pistol. Any good holster is going to be perfectly safe with the Glock. Yes, people have shot themselves in the leg with DA/SAs, too. (Heck, especially if they're newbies or freaked out by a stressful situation and forget to decock it!)

I'd dare say folks have shot themselves with Bersas, but I can't find evidence because so few people carry one.

they are entering that market but they are not exiting building SA/DA pistols as you assume...so, again, your point is???They aren't announcing that they're stopping production of DA/SA guns today. Or tomorrow. But they're putting their toe in the waters, and for companies so long anchored to the idea of the old DA/SA design, that's VERY significant.

a SA/DA design is superior to a striker fired pistol for the flexibility that design gives to me...period.For you? Maybe. But "flexibility" in how it works is not a benefit to a new shooter. It needs to work one way all the time. One process. One safety format. Do this thing every time, period. He can get fancy with multiple "flexible" manuals-of-arms later if he's inclined.

Well, Glock started the whole trend, No, HK did. (Vp70)

Springfield I do nto think they ever made SA/DA pistol they just make pistol to compete with Glock and 1911s,They import the Croatian HS2000 and sell it as the xD. Guess what's their hottest selling pistol? :)

Ruger probably discontinued the P Series for cost reasons.Do you believe that it is CHEAPER for Ruger to shut down manufacturing that's been churning out the same basic gun for decades, come up with a new design, and then tool up to make a completely different gun ... when that gun uses probably $3 less metal than the old P-series? There's no savings there. Ruger simply had to make a gun that could compete somewhat on the same playing field with at the new high standard being set by the striker-fired designs.

I think that if you contemplate what you're saying there -- that the new striker-fired Rugers represent a cost-cutting measure over the old P-series -- you'll realize that it is an unreasonable claim.

...my friend can buy whatever he choose....Ok, as long as you let him know that and don't ridicule or shame him into buying what YOU want.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 10:55 PM
We're pretty far afield from the original question which was answered pretty well in the first few posts (if the potential buyer likes and shoots the Bersa best, get it. If he likes and shoots the Glock best, get that instead.) BUT...
As far as DA/SA being antiquated and striker fired pistols being the way to the future, striker fired pistols pre-date DA/SA (1906 Japanese Nambu vs. 1930's German P-38). I'm not an expert on this but I thought the P-38 introduced the world to DA/SA.

Also remember that a lot of old guys on this board remember narrow ties, then wide ties, then narrow ties again. For the ladies, hemlines go up, hemlines go down, then go back up again. DA/SA was the new thing, now striker fired pistols are in fashion. May we all live long enough to see which way the fashion winds blow again.

This is no knock on striker fired pistols, they can work well but they don't represent a one way ticket to small arms perfection. There are other paths to Nirvana as well.

My $0.02.

Dan

Bingo

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 10:57 PM
For the OP, finding a holster for a Glock 22 is one of the easiest things to find, while you're going to need to do some searching to find a holster for a Bersa, and when you do find them, you will be very limited in your choices

Around here (Seattle) you can find holster for a Bersa full size every day of the week and twice on Sunday...:)

JTQ
October 19, 2013, 11:03 PM
Around here (Seattle) you can find holster for a Bersa full size every day of the week and twice on Sunday...
A leather or kydex holster specifically made for the Bersa in .40 S&W, or are you talking about a generic fit holster of some kind?

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:03 PM
Ok, as long as you let him know that and don't ridicule or shame him into buying what YOU want.


I suggested to him to get a DA/SA then it is his choice.

Contrary to your opinion SA/DA are not going anywhere and even the 1911 are alive and kicking....

Striker fired actions are among us since the very beginning of semiauto handguns themselves.

They are back in vogue only for one simple reason.....cost, weight (when coupled with a polymer frame which is the norm nowadays) and simplicity.

All the semiautos evolved and got better and reliable with time....US police departments finally dropped their six shooters when the wonder nines came around, demostrating absolute reliability and unbeatable magazine capacity.

Striker fired plastic pieces only simply improved the cost and weight equation...

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:04 PM
A leather or kydex holster specifically made for the Bersa in .40 S&W, or are you talking about a generic fit holster of some kind?

Good fitting generic..with emphasis on good fitting. I got holsters for my Bersa online even from very small shops.

JTQ
October 19, 2013, 11:08 PM
Here are the Bersa holster options available at Brownell's. You'll notice the list is small, and there are no models for the Bersa in .40S&W.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/holsters-belt-gear/holsters/index.htm?avs%7CMake_3=Bersa

Here are the G22 holsters available from Brownell's. I believe you have an option of 40 different holster models to choose from.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/holsters-belt-gear/holsters/index.htm?avs%7cMake%7e%7eModel_1=Glock__22&f_a=1

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:13 PM
Here are the Bersa holster options available at Brownell's. You'll notice the list is small, and there are no models for the Bersa in .40S&W.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-ac...7CMake_3=Bersa

Here are the G22 holsters available from Brownell's. I believe you have an option of 40 different holster models to choose from.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-ac...lock__22&f_a=1


Just to mention the firn in my mind, Soft Armor has holster that fit the Bersa Thunder full line in any o ftheir product line

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 11:20 PM
Soft Armor? The nylon pouch guys? That's about as close to a "generic" holster as you could get. The Bersa thunder fits in a "Size 16" ... as do several other medium sized autos.

You talk about a bad holster being dangerous? And then recommend Soft Armor's products? :uhoh:

Gads.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:24 PM
You can shoot yourself in the leg with ANY pistol. Any good holster is going to be perfectly safe with the Glock. Yes, people have shot themselves in the leg with DA/SAs, too. (Heck, especially if they're newbies or freaked out by a stressful situation and forget to decock it!)

I'd dare say folks have shot themselves with Bersas, but I can't find evidence because so few people carry one.


Sure, it's true.....you cannot prevent someone from shooting himself...leaving Bersa aside given the smaller commercial footprint, the fact is that "Glock Leg" it did become a well known slang term, I find no results on google for "Beretta leg" or "Sig leg"....:)

People are not perfect we all make screwups sometimes....I tend to believe that a DA/SA design is more screwup resistant, especially for a beginner.

But they're putting their toe in the waters, and for companies so long anchored to the idea of the old DA/SA design, that's VERY significant.


Is not significant it's smart....there is a market for it and they are going after it, simple....thanks to polymer and a simpler striker fired action S&W did sell a full size service caliber pistol for $249 (with rebate) up to few years ago, the Sigma....again these pistols are very successfull...but, contrary to your assumption, they are not displacing other type of actions....they co-exists...

No, HK did. (Vp70)


They were not wildly successful...tupperware pistols really took off with Glock..that is what I meant....

Do you believe that it is CHEAPER for Ruger to shut down manufacturing that's been churning out the same basic gun for decades, come up with a new design, and then tool up to make a completely different gun ... when that gun uses probably $3 less metal than the old P-series? There's no savings there. Ruger simply had to make a gun that could compete somewhat on the same playing field with at the new high standard being set by the striker-fired designs.

I think that if you contemplate what you're saying there -- that the new striker-fired Rugers represent a cost-cutting measure over the old P-series -- you'll realize that it is an unreasonable claim.


I believe that going from a full metal frame P Series to a polymer frame you save more than $3......

And is not what you save...is the price that your brand can charge....

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:27 PM
Soft Armor? The nylon pouch guys? That's about as close to a "generic" holster as you could get. The Bersa thunder fits in a "Size 16" ... as do several other medium sized autos.

You talk about a bad holster being dangerous? And then recommend Soft Armor's products?

Gads.


My Soft Armor and KNJ hip holsters fits very well indeed....I personally dislike leather and hard shell holsters.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 11:33 PM
.I tend to believe that a DA/SA design is more screwup resistant, especially for a beginner.I guess that depends on the screwup. If they remember to decock it it will be safer. If they forget, quite a bit more dangerous.

Is not significant it's smart....there is a market for it and they are going after it, simpleYeees. And THAT is significant.

but, contrary to yoru assumption, they are not displacing other type of actions....they co-exists...They utterly did for two of the largest DA/SA pistol makers ever (S&W and Ruger). I suppose we won't know for sure how many more companies will abandon that design for some years yet to come.

I believe that going from a full metal frame P Series to a polymer frame you save more than $3......Ok. I was thinking mostly of them ditching their polymer-framed DA/SA guns. They haven't made almost any steel-framed pistols since 2004.

And is not what you save...is the price that your brand can charge....? Ok. So, it isn't that it costs you a lot of money to design a new gun and a WHOLE lot of money to build lines to make them, but it's that you can charge more for them? I thought you said they were popular because they were cheap?

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:34 PM
Other large selection directly from the Bersa site, Fobus and Vega holsters

http://www.bersa.com/holsters/belt-holsters.html

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 11:37 PM
I personally dislike leather and hard shell holsters.They're a lot safer and more secure than nylon pouch holsters. Hold the gun tighter against the body, support it more rigidly, don't collapse when you draw, letting you more safely re-holster. The nylon pouch types are really not recommended except for extreme budgetary reasons.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:39 PM
Yeees. And THAT is significant.


I have to give credit to the striker fired tupperware that probably helped increase civilian handgun ownership (trough cost, media popularity, etc...)

Don't think that my reasoning for prefering a DA/SA design is some sort of romantic attachment...no is not...my absolute favorite pistol is my loved Beretta 92/96 Series....a very soft spot for it...but I'm the first to recognize how that platform is no longer acceptable for CC duty...too big and heavy and with the slide mounted safety....I love it but I recognize its limits.

saturno_v
October 19, 2013, 11:41 PM
They're a lot safer and more secure than nylon pouch holsters. Hold the gun tighter against the body, support it more rigidly, don't collapse when you draw, letting you more safely re-holster. The nylon pouch types are really not recommended except for extreme budgetary reasons.


Wait a sec..there are nylon and nylon.....mine are quite rigid they do not collapse easily at all, especially the KNJ.

Yes there are mom and pop crappy nylon onion peels wich are actually dangerous...

I like how they wear...LE use them....

JTQ
October 20, 2013, 12:01 AM
I like how they wear...LE use them....
From this company?
http://www.knjmfg.com/id2.html

Some may use Bianch Accumold holsters http://www.bianchi-intl.com/products/law-enforcement/duty-holsters

The vast majority are using leather or kydex.

The only reason for a nylon holster is cost savings. Leather and kydex are superior in every other way.

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 12:07 AM
From this company?
http://www.knjmfg.com/id2.html

Some may use Bianch Accumold holsters http://www.bianchi-intl.com/products.../duty-holsters

The vast majority are using leather or kydex.

The only reason for a nylon holster is cost savings. Leather and kydex are superior in every other way.

I do not like leather holsters and I may try a Kydex.

For my needs, my nylons work right, they do not flop around, they are fairly rigid and well anchored.

David E
October 20, 2013, 12:42 AM
I don't see how a DA/SA is a more "flexible" platform than striker fired guns. Especially for a "gun newbie" who would have to commit to learning extra steps to ensure safe gun handling.

As I mentioned, and Saturno ignored, trained cops have forgotten to decock their gun and holstered it, hammer cocked. An objective conclusion would be that DA/SA platforms may require more attention to gun handling protocols than a "gun newbie" or a lazy/occasional gun handler is willing to do, each time and every time.

Striker fired guns like the Glock only require the trigger finger to be out of the trigger guard. This is easy to teach and easy to learn.

Holster selection is at least as important as gun selection. "Almost" and "fairly" and "adequate" are red flags when used as holster descriptors.

David E
October 20, 2013, 12:45 AM
On another note, the Walther PP is credited with being the first successful DA/SA handgun when it was introduced in 1929

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 12:51 AM
don't see how a DA/SA is a more "flexible" platform than striker fired guns. Especially for a "gun newbie" who would have to commit to learning extra steps to ensure safe gun handling.

As I mentioned, and Saturno ignored, trained cops have forgotten to decock their gun and holstered it, hammer cocked. An objective conclusion would be that DA/SA platforms may require more attention to gun handling protocols than a "gun newbie" or a lazy/occasional gun handler is willing to do, each time and every time.



Nothing is totally error proof....a cocked SA/DA pistol is almost impossible to ignore visually...again nothing is totally foolproof...


Holster selection is at least as important as gun selection. "Almost" and "fairly" and "adequate" are red flags when used as holster descriptors.


Selecting a holster is not rocket science...you need to follow few good guidelines..

JTQ
October 20, 2013, 12:54 AM
Selecting a holster is not rocket science...you need to follow few good guidelines..
Rule #1 of holster selection - don't buy a nylon holster.

David E
October 20, 2013, 01:39 AM
A finger left inside the trigger guard is visually hard to ignore, also.

I dare say that selecting a holster for serious purposes is more important and more involved than you seem to think is necessary. This reveals quite a bit about you.

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 02:42 AM
I dare say that selecting a holster for serious purposes is more important and more involved than you seem to think is necessary. This reveals quite a bit about you.


What does reveal about me?? Do you know my holster?? Did I ever said that a good holster is not necessary?? Do not put words in my mouth or assume things you do not know...

mec
October 20, 2013, 04:15 AM
I recently check out a bersa 40 and 45. The 45 is slightly bigger but the feel and performance are just about indentical. Both required fifty or more rounds to settle in and become reliable with the several loads that I had. Both had very moderate recoil regardless of the load and they were accurate. Availability depends on what comes in on the boat but the people at Eagle Imports practice good customer service and do not treat basic good manners as a sign of weakness. They have a number of service centers around the country. The one in our area is a particularly skilled gunsmith who is impressed with the support he gets from Eagle.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=190135&stc=1&d=1382256832

David E
October 20, 2013, 09:09 AM
What does reveal about me?? Do you know my holster?? Did I ever said that a good holster is not necessary?? Do not put words in my mouth or assume things you do not know...
It reveals more than you realize.

Look, if you're only using a nylon holster for recreational pursuits, then it's "fairly adequate" and suitable for your purposes.

But if you're using it to carry concealed everyday, then that nylon holster is a problem.

Which model are you using for what purpose? The clip-on with spare mag attached, or something else?

And you still haven't addressed why you think a DA/SA is a more flexible platform for a newbie.

David E
October 20, 2013, 10:38 AM
Please understand, I'm not saying that a quality DA/SA is worthless or impossible to shoot well. I'm just saying that they may not be the best choice for a gun newbie. But that doesn't mean he can't master it. He just needs to instill the extra steps required by the platform into his subconscious.

I own several DA/SA designs and used them when I was a cop. I also shot competition with them, doing well enough that folks thought I was starting with the gun cocked in the holster. It apparently never occurred to them that it's possible to master the DA pull and subsequent SA transition.

I've not shot them for a couple years, but when I handle them, I immediately recall the required gun handling protocols due to the previously acquired habits I burned into my subconscious. If I can do it, anyone can.....but they have to put in the time.

.

wow6599
October 20, 2013, 03:51 PM
Bianch Accumold holsters are very, very good holsters. Don't let the material fool ya, they aren't like any other nylon holster.....carries like a cross between polymer & leather.

BTW, has the guy bought a gun yet?

bobandmikako
October 20, 2013, 05:32 PM
Back to the original question, he should get whichever one HE wants, and both are good choices. Chances are, he'll probably end up getting both at some point. I don't know many people who start shooting and only have one gun. Personally, I like DAO/LEM/DAK triggers better for most purposes, including concealed carry. I do like DA/SA for home defense guns around the house (i. e. nightstand gun). Good leather Bersa holsters are harder to find than good Glock holsters. UBG Holsters makes excellent quality Bersa holsters.

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 08:19 PM
It reveals more than you realize.

Look, if you're only using a nylon holster for recreational pursuits, then it's "fairly adequate" and suitable for your purposes.

But if you're using it to carry concealed everyday, then that nylon holster is a problem.

Which model are you using for what purpose? The clip-on with spare mag attached, or something else?

And you still haven't addressed why you think a DA/SA is a more flexible platform for a newbie.



David


I own and tried nylon holsters for my handguns from several brands....I immediately dismissed the cheap flimsy stuff (for example Uncle Mike's with brittle plastic clips, people got in trouble with these)

The one that I prefer the most are the KNJ, a small maker from Arizona. I did talk directly to the gentleman making them and I tried few sizes till I settled on the right ones. They fit very well, are fairly rigid and I have no problem reholstering. The belt loops are wide and sturdy, and they come with included optional thick and wide metal clips, not plastic.
Straps are high quality, they do not stretch and have metal thumb breaks inserts. They are not cheap by Nylon holster standards. I rarely carry full size nowadays, (pocket carry did become my norm with my little 9mm) and I prefer only OWB holsters, I do not carry IWB. If you carry a belt holster, the first rule is to have a nice quality, sturdy and wide belt and appropriate quality pants, even more important the the holster itself...I saw more then once people with nice fancy leather holsters carried on cheap Wal-Mart grade belts and jeans...what is the point of the perfect high quality holster hold by a $10 leather belt??
My holsters do not flop around, the stay tight with the body, the straps never unclipped, the guns are nice and tight...never dropped a pistol due to a bad holster...
I do not like leather holsters and they can be tricky...sometimes they still look good but they are already worn....

In my opinion the SA/DA platform with decocker is better for a beginner, as I said before, because of a more mishandling-proof action when in DA mode. And I like the clear visual clue (hammer) about the condition of the gun, beginners tend to learn that well in my experience.

Bianch Accumold holsters are very, very good holsters. Don't let the material fool ya, they aren't like any other nylon holster.....

Indeed...there are cheap ill fitting nylon holsters and nice quality sturdy nylon holsters....

UPDATE on my friend saga....I think he's going with a used SIG 226 in perfect shape

David E
October 20, 2013, 08:44 PM
Saturno,

We agree on the belt.

I would like to see a picture of your gun in that specific holster. Or at least, a link to one like it.

While I agree with the "DA/SA is safer while in hammer down mode," the hammer doesn't always stay down!

As mentioned, remembering to decock the gun can be a very serious issue. It seems to me a DAO design would better meet your requirements. But he can minimize this concern thru diligent training.

Another issue is remedial action drills, specifically with slide mounted decockers. Since he's found a Sig, this is a moot point. (But make sure the Sig devices properly. Early ones had issues that cause lawsuits)

A cocked hammer is a good visual indicator as to its cocked/uncocked status, but an XD/XDM, for example, does that job even better, as it not only indicates if it's cocked or not, it also reveals the loaded status of the chamber.

It seems the issues you think are solved with a DA/SA are better solved with other action types.

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 09:33 PM
A cocked hammer is a good visual indicator as to its cocked/uncocked status, but an XD/XDM, for example, does that job even better, as it not only indicates if it's cocked or not, it also reveals the loaded status of the chamber.

It seems the issues you think are solved with a DA/SA are better solved with other action types.


Modern SA/DA platform have a round in the chamber indicator

R.Ph. 380
October 20, 2013, 09:43 PM
Have him try a Bersa 45 UC. BETTER than the Glock. The weight gives it a steadiness and limited recoil. The glock is plastic and feels it. Ergonomics are just wrong and the looks, Well the Bersa wins there too.

OK, Flame time..............................................................

Bill

19-3Ben
October 20, 2013, 10:13 PM
Modern SA/DA platform have a round in the chamber indicator

All of my guns have a loaded chamber indicator. It's north of my eyebrows.

Not to be flip about it, but LCIs are another mechanical doodad that can be nice to have, but are no substitute for knowledgable and safe gun handling. My first auto was a Sig P232 that my father gave me when i got my carry permit. Technically on that gun you can feel the extractor and feel it bumped out if there is a round chambered. Even at the ripe of age of 21, I knew better, and simply did a chamber check. I can look and feel for myself. An LCI is really not a selling point at all in my book. An LCI, like any mechanical safety, can fail, so I do not count on it.

It's actually one of the reasons I like that little port in the top of my S&W M&P. I can simply look down into the chamber and see it for myself.

The glock is plastic and feels it. Ergonomics are just wrong...
The ergos are just wrong FOR YOU. Doesn't mean they are wrong for everyone. I happen not to like them, and I feel they are wrong for me too, but there are lots...and lots....and lots...and lots...and lots...and lots.... and lots of people who do just fine with Glocks.

saturno_v
October 20, 2013, 10:13 PM
Posted in error. David I sent you a PM about my holster pic, I want to avoid going off topic on here.

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