Wishing for a C&R category


PDA






jaytex1969
October 16, 2013, 05:19 AM
I enjoy this site and spend lots of time here.

I'd enjoy it much more if the crufflers had a designated spot.

Thanks.

Jay

If you enjoyed reading about "Wishing for a C&R category" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sam1911
October 16, 2013, 08:26 AM
We discuss new sub forums fairly freqently. C&R comes up as a suggestion pretty often:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7271486
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506384

Some thoughts, and possible responses as to why we don't do it:

Is there something about C&R firearms that makes them inappropriate to discuss in the appropriate sub-forums that we currently have?

I see the C&R status of various guns mentioned frequently here but I've never gotten the feeling that discussion of such was hindered or stifled by being lumped in with other similar (but more recent) weapons.

What benefit would there be in splitting out discussion of, say, 50-year-old rifles from 40-year-old rifles? How are the current sub-forums offered at THR not meeting your needs?
...

And why not a "bolt-action rifles" sub forum to separate them out from those in the "semiauto" forum, and those in the "break-action single shot" forum from those in the "falling-block single shot" or "rolling block single shot" sub-forums? And maybe a pair of sub-forums so that Marlin lever-actions don't have to share space with Winchester lever-actions? There are infinite details that make firearms unique from one another (and C&R status is one of the most arbitrarily "administrative" and superficial ones I can think of) but having a myriad of sub-forums to deal with each one individually would just be distracting. Personally, I think having a "Handguns" forum AND "Autopistols" AND "Revolvers" forums is odd and unnecessary. But I'm living with it.

And...

My question, as specifically as I can state it, is how does splitting discussion of these guns away from that of (slightly) more modern ones help us communicate here? The 50 year C&R elligibility window is a completely arbitrary cut-off, having nothing to do with the guns themselves, really. Except for minor convinience issues entirely centered on the point of purchase, there's really no distinction to be found. Why would this division of our conversation be of benefit?

Having multiple locations where one could post a question about, or search for information regarding, the same gun is a wasteful distraction. We have the technical, historical, and performance issues of thes guns adequately covered in the appropriate sub-forums (rifle, shotgun, etc.). We have the legalities of the 03 FFL and C&R status covered well and often in Legal or even General. We have even more historic coverage available under Firearms Research.

Why in the world do we need yet another wall to segregate our conversations?

Explain how having a dedicated C&R sub-forum will make your life easier or your understanding greater, please.

And one more:

Can we a bolt, semi, lever, single-shot (falling block, rolling block, and break-action), double-rifle/drilling/etc., and pump sections, too? But what about the most common request, that AR-15s and/or AKs get stuck in their own sub-forum? Do Rem 740s/7400s, BARs (the hunting ones...but what about the old war-fighting ones?), Marlin 60s, and the antique Winchester Self-Loaders go with them into "autoloading rifles?" Or do some of those fit into the Curio and Relic sub-forum that is often called for?

And, of course, if they're rimfires, they need to be in a separate set of sub-forums devoted to those.

Rifles: Bolt Action
Rifles: Bolt Action Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Bolt Action
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Bolt Action Rimfire
Rifles: Lever Action
Rifles: Lever Action Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Lever Action
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Lever Action Rimfire
Rifles: Semi-Auto
Rifles: Semi-Auto Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Semi-Auto (You realize that the early AR-15s and AK-47s should go here, right? :eek:)
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Semi-Auto Rimfire
Rifles: Slide/Pump Action
Rifles: Slide-Pump Action Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Slide/Pump Action
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Slide/Pump Action Rimfire
Rifles: Double, Drilling, Vierling, Fiefling, etc.
Rifles: Double, Drilling, Vierling, Fiefling, etc. Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Double, Drilling, Vierling, Fiefling, etc.
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Double, Drilling, Vierling, Fiefling, etc. Rimfire
Rifles: Single-Shot, Falling Block
Rifles: Single-Shot, Falling Block Rimfire
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Single-Shot, Falling Block
Rifles, Curio and Relic: Single-Shot, Falling Block Rimfire
Etc...

Yes, we could make a number of arbitrary calls about what goes with what, but we already spend so much time "directing traffic" (i.e. moving threads to their forum of best fit) that adding more choices just seems counter-productive.

The handgun forum set is already redundant enough to cause confusion.

I'm really not a fan, personally.

bainter1212
October 16, 2013, 08:48 AM
Well, instead of a C&R category, why not a "military surplus rifles & pistols" category? This would take the "50 year old" issue out of the equation.

I have spoken to/met a lot of folks who are only interested in military surplus guns.

Sam1911
October 16, 2013, 10:17 AM
Some more threads on that question, or ones closely related to it:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=652997
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=635708
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8308207

Same question applies though? Why? What makes military surplus guns different from other rifles and pistols?

When someone posts in the Revolvers forum about their Model 17 S&W, does it need to instead go into "Military Surplus Rifles and Pistols?" What about sporterized rifles? What about firearms that were made both for military and civilian purposes?

We spend a ridiculous amount of time as it is "directing traffic" to get threads shuffled into the appropriate locations. Adding more overlapping categories can't help!

And considering that just about every type of rifle and pistol derives from, or has been put to military purposes, what's the point of separating them out when we discuss them? And, since we don't want the public to see a difference between "safe" civilian guns and "dangerous" military guns, does it serve us well to separate them out when talking among ourselves?

The question of what categories are useful comes to mind, as do questions of not playing into the "scary gun/safe gun" stereotypes. We don't want an "Evil Black Rifle" forum any more than we want an "Grandpa's Fudd Gun" forum. A "Military Style" rifles forum vs. a "Hunting Rifles" forum is equally bad, and misleading to boot, as most rifles used in hunting stem from or are functionally identical to military rifles of one sort or another. Some have asked for a Mil. Surp. only subforum. Some have asked for a rimfire forum. We've resisted that as the distinctions tend to become more contentious and confusing than helpful. (Does that .22 LR training rifle go in Mil Surps? Or Bolt Actions? Or Rimfire?)

If there has to be a line drawn somewhere, I suppose Semi-Auto Rifles and Manually Operated Rifles makes as much sense as any. But that means someone's thread about Dad's Remington 740 goes in with the AR-15 gadgetry threads, not with the Win. 70s and Rem. 700s. The only reason I can see to do this is, as you suggested, to keep some threads on the front page of the sub-forum longer, but that seems like a questionable reason -- IMHO. Those other threads are all still there, and deserve a look if they pertain to subjects that interest you. If they are interesting to lots of people, they'll stay up on the front page. If not, they'll move on back. Whether that happens today instead of tomorrow doesn't really bother me much.

Sergei Mosin
October 16, 2013, 02:56 PM
THR has more of a general feel to it. For sites that are heavy on C&R and milsurp-specific discussion, you might try Surplus Rifle Forum (http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/) or Gunboards (http://forums.gunboards.com/).

all357mag
October 16, 2013, 09:56 PM
If this forum has a knife forum, anything should go! Knives, really?

Fred Fuller
October 16, 2013, 10:02 PM
But it isn't just knives - it's Non-Firearm Weapons, a much broader category...

Sam1911
October 16, 2013, 10:26 PM
Yeah, how exactly would we logically put weapons that aren't firearms into one of the firearm forums?

"Handguns: Revolvers & Knives?"
"Rifle Country & Bludgeons?"

NFW is a sub forum that makes totally logical sense.

jaytex1969
October 17, 2013, 12:02 AM
Well, instead of a C&R category, why not a "military surplus rifles & pistols" category? This would take the "50 year old" issue out of the equation.

Maybe this is closer to what I was hoping for.

Same question applies though? Why? What makes military surplus guns different from other rifles and pistols?

I'm not sure what makes them different. All I know is that when I see, handle or talk about a surplus bolt rifle, I get enthused and interested. Modern firearms, although I appreciate them for the tools they are, they don't generate the interest in me. And I'm certain that there are many others of like mind.

THR is still a great site and I'm not working to debate the "deciderers". Just sharing my perspective. I do use Surplusrifleforum also. Just want to spread my disease... :D

Derek Zeanah
October 17, 2013, 12:46 AM
Rifle Country & BludgeonsNah, Rifle and Bludgeon Country. I'll make the change this weekend. We'll need a new mod, as I know nothing of the use of billy clubs and saps...

;)

Willie Sutton
October 18, 2013, 09:22 AM
While appreciating the humor, and also the NIH (not invented here) sentiments, I'd second the request for a C&R forum.

One of the unique things challenging the 03 FFL community is trying to collate the variety of sources from dealers who will work with 03 FFL's, etc., which subject is a matter of interest to C&R collectors but not one that fits into any firearms specific forum. The administrative issues for 03 FFL's are unique, etc. So 03 FFL guys do have some things to discuss as a unified "whole" that are either not supported on the forum, or are fragmented and marginalized in the existing forums. This is in addition to discussing the arms themselves. It would encourage conversations that are at present not occuring to have a forum added.


Willie

.

TimboKhan
October 24, 2013, 10:48 PM
I myself asked, years ago, for this very thing. Now I oppose it. (though I am still a big milsurp fan!)

Honestly, it's not that I am a mod now and wasn't then that changed my mind. It's a case of realizing that there just isn't that much of a difference between the topics related to milsurps and the topics related to any other gun.

To me, the historical aspect of milsurps is more of the defining characteristic between that branch of the hobby and someone interested in something like pre-64 Model 70's or what have you, but I think that discussing that history over in a dedicated forum is basically just preaching to the choir. The better idea to me is to share that stuff in the open rifle (or pistol, as the case may be) forums and let everyone join in.

Willie, I think your argument is sound except for the fact that if you see a conversation not happening in the current forums, why aren't you starting it?

Midwest
October 25, 2013, 01:43 PM
I also vote for a C&R section, especially for those who have a C&R license. Might be a good spot to discuss current deals, history of C&R firearms. How to get a C&R license and so on. Thanks for your consideration.

Willie Sutton
October 25, 2013, 09:14 PM
"I myself asked, years ago, for this very thing. Now I oppose it. (though I am still a big milsurp fan!) Honestly, it's not that I am a mod now and wasn't then that changed my mind. It's a case of realizing that there just isn't that much of a difference between the topics related to milsurps and the topics related to any other gun."


Several points:

1: The VAST majority of C&R firearms are not military surplus arms. They are civil arms more than 50 years old. Bear in mind that *any firearm* more than 50 years old is C&R. That means that a 03 FFL is valuable if you want to browse for used guns in any of our 50 states as you travel. With 03 FFL you can buy from anyone, in any state, dealer or not, as long as the firearm is either 50 years old, or is on the C&R list.

2: C&R topics are often not firearms topics. They are licensing topics, record keeping topics, and many other topics of interest such as what dealers offer C&R holders discounts on goods, etc.

In short there are many topics of interest to C&R holders that would be good to have collated in a forum dedicated to their interests.



"Willie, I think your argument is sound except for the fact that if you see a conversation not happening in the current forums, why aren't you starting it?"


I think an awful lot of people don't even know about the 03 license, and are not asking questions because they simply don't see it as a discussion topic. I'm not the pied piper trying to get non-licencees interested in C&R, but I would certainly offer advice if discussions were being fostered. A C&R is one of the most valuable tools possible for a firearms enthusiast, and I think a forum would end up becoming a venue from which non-licencees might see how easy to get and how trouopbe free being a licencee is, and what huge value can accrue from holding one. In short, I don't have any questions, but I have a lot of answers to share if/when the topics are presented. Right now there is no real discussion ongoing, due to lack of venue.


Willie

.

TimboKhan
October 25, 2013, 10:08 PM
The VAST majority of C&R firearms are not military surplus arms.

Fair point! I would counter to a certain degree by pointing out that many people basically think of C&R as Milsurp. As you point out, thats an incorrect assumption, but it is a pretty accurate statement of fact.

As to your other points... Well, I think you make a good argument. I am not in a position to say yes or no, but I think you have a good argument for.

csa77
October 27, 2013, 05:39 PM
http://forums.gunboards.com/ is the premier website on the net for surplus collecting discussion. they have sub forums dedicated to nearly every type of surplus firearm.

Sam1911
October 27, 2013, 06:47 PM
Yes indeed!

And something else to consider is that we would never claim nor request nor expect that THR is "THE" answer to all your gun talk needs and wishes. The internet is now chock full of resources that cater to every taste. We try to do a good job with what we do, and try pretty hard not to do absolutely everything that every member might want. We can't, and don't want to alter the board enough to try. We aren't rimfirecentral.com, we aren't castbullets.com, we aren't officer.com or 10-8forums or snipershide. We aren't brianenos.com, and we aren't surpluysrifles.com, and we aren't ar-15.com either. And on, and on. We certainly encourage all our members to find answers and fellowship in other places as well as here.

Take the best of THR with you to other places and bring the best of what you find in your virtual travels here to share with us!

g_one
October 29, 2013, 11:28 PM
"Rifle Country & Bludgeons"

I don't have anything useful to contribute here except that I had to laugh when I read that. Sounds like a good band name.

Midwest
October 30, 2013, 05:41 PM
Mods, how about a poll with a yes or no for a C&R category? Maybe one of the mods could post the poll?

Sam1911
October 30, 2013, 06:58 PM
As much as that seems a fair way to get those interested in such a thing the opportunity to express their desires with a simple click (as opposed to taking the time to post words on the matter) that isn't the path by which we make those sorts of decisions.

The hows and whys and whats and whethers of it are under discussion among the staff currently.

If you enjoyed reading about "Wishing for a C&R category" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!