"Reasonable" restrictions??


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JTHunter
October 17, 2013, 05:54 PM
On 12/11/12, the 7th Federal Court ruled agains Illinois' total carry ban.
Judge Richard Posner stipulated that the law Illinois would write would be able to have "reasonable restrictions".
As the Legislature was given a 30 day extension, the Judges order didn't take effect until 7/9/13. The State Police (ISP), following the Legislature's lead, is dragging their feet and stalling as much as possible and won't even have the applications ready to go until 1/10/14!!
Now I find out some of the prices involved.

Non-refundable application fee: $150.oo :barf:
Required Training course (16 hours): $220.oo :what:
Digital fingerprints - there are only a few private companies doing this and the nearest one (so far) is in Granite City, IL, northeast of St. Louis and about 150 miles from the southern tip of Illinois! :fire:

Do you think these "qualify" as "reasonable restrictions"?? :banghead: :cuss:

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ilbob
October 17, 2013, 06:26 PM
Most things the government and the courts see as reasonable are unfathomable to the rest of us. Look at all the things the courts have ruled cops can do as being "reasonable".

In any case, if you do not want to pay the bill for a LTC, don't do so.

If it bugs you enough, pay a lawyer to sue over it and see where that gets you. But be aware nothing will change for a few years no matter what so if you want to carry now pay up.

Many people qualify for past training course credit, up to half the 16 hours of training required. That reduces the sticker shock for training to some extent.

Personally I am more offended that there is virtually no where I want to go that I can carry at. It is basically a permit to leave a loaded gun in your car.

MErl
October 17, 2013, 08:04 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble.

CO, boulder county: http://www.bouldercounty.org/safety/firearms/pages/cwp.aspx
Application fee $100
Background check fee $52.50
Class Fee : Varies, $60-100 is not a bad estimate
Fingerprints - Digital done at sheriff's office when you apply. They charge $10 to do this but that fee is included in the application fee.

So the fees are not unusual.
The classes being expensive, well they have to be longer than here (though I took a long 12 hr one for $100). Bigger factor there is the demand is high.

The prints are the only thing that might be unreasonable and only because you say there is nowhere to get digital ones done.

herrwalther
October 17, 2013, 09:17 PM
The courts dance back and forth on what is allowed under the vague "reasonable" restrictions. So far there haven't been many state or Supreme Court decisions I know of where the high cost of firearm ownership is considered unreasonable. I am more than happy to be proven wrong on this point. I just don't know any off hand.

High cost of firearm ownership is in the antis playbook. They are losing ground as more and more states are realizing the benefits of an armed populace. So if they can't make it outright illegal to own and carry, they will make it expensive. The high cost or a difficult process will reduce the number of law abiding weapon carriers.

Midwest
October 17, 2013, 09:30 PM
I have been reading the horror stories out of New York State where people there have waited as long as 19 months to 2 years to get a permit to buy a pistol even in some upstate counties. Usually the permit to buy a pistol includes being able to carry in those upstate counties, although its not a given.

Their process includes three (or more) character references, fingerprints, photos, criminal background checks from county and state, mental health checks, sometimes appearing before a judge and the requirements vary from county to county as well as the excessively long waits. Surely none of this could be remotely considered reasonable.

SMMAssociates
October 18, 2013, 04:43 AM
Our anti-freedom legislators consider "reasonable" to mean "unlikely"....

Rather like my impression of the Clinton-inspired exam questions:

1. Name the Capitol of Poland?

2. What is the population of that city?

3. Name them....

:(

Regards,

Pilot
October 18, 2013, 06:48 AM
Courts are getting more, and more liberal, and UNREASONABLE in my opinion, as more, and more activist judges seem to want to legislate from the bench. Lawyers love laws, restrictions, and anything that gets them more work.

HexHead
October 18, 2013, 07:09 AM
The word "reasonable", just like "common sense", is your first tip off you're dealing with anti-gun liberals that possess neither trait.

Salmoneye
October 18, 2013, 07:31 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble.

CO, boulder county: http://www.bouldercounty.org/safety/...pages/cwp.aspx
Application fee $100
Background check fee $52.50
Class Fee : Varies, $60-100 is not a bad estimate
Fingerprints - Digital done at sheriff's office when you apply. They charge $10 to do this but that fee is included in the application fee.

So the fees are not unusual.
The classes being expensive, well they have to be longer than here (though I took a long 12 hr one for $100). Bigger factor there is the demand is high.

The prints are the only thing that might be unreasonable and only because you say there is nowhere to get digital ones done.

I must be missing your point...

All I get out of your post is that CO also has unreasonable costs associated with carrying a weapon, so the OP should just buck up in IL and accept it?

:confused:

vamo
October 18, 2013, 08:44 AM
Missouri really isn't that much better, class cost is between $100 and $150, and the application in the county I live in is $100. Yeah that's a bit cheaper, but we're talking about an extremely gun friendly state here.

Unfortunately, that does qualify as reasonable restrictions. States don't control the training cost and Illinois training while being more onerous than other states really isn't that much worse. The fee to the state is in line with what it cost in other places and will undoubtly be argued as admin cost if ever brought to court. The fingerprint thing kinda sucks, but its a one time inconveinance; I too am not happy with having to be fingerprinted for participating in a completely legal activity, but again Illinois isn't a totalitarian outlier in this regard, many "free" states have the same requirement. Just be happy you got a shall issue law.

MErl
October 18, 2013, 09:03 AM
I must be missing your point...

All I get out of your post is that CO also has unreasonable costs associated with carrying a weapon, so the OP should just buck up in IL and accept it?

Point was you are going to have hard time arguing unreasonable on a new program when established programs in other states cost the same. Complain loudly about the fingerprinting but accept the rest (though nobody will listen to those complaints except the courts).
The big problems with the IL license is that it restricts far too many areas and takes forever to issue, not the cost.

Schutzen
October 18, 2013, 09:15 AM
Well, let's be reasonable. The State is requiring digital fingerprints, have your state representative propose legislation that requires the Illinois Department of Justice to provide each county sheriff with a digital fingerprint machine. With all the extra money Illinois has in the state coffers, that should be no problem.

Fight fire with fire!

ilbob
October 18, 2013, 09:39 AM
IL does not require fingerprints to get a LTC. It just allows the state police to wait an extra 30 days to issue your license if you don't do the fingerprints. Since they can already wait 90 days to issue the license, an extra 30 days is not that big of a deal.

I fully expect that most licenses w/o prints will be issued right around 120 days after they receive the application, while license applications with prints will be issued about 90 days after the application is received.

The ISP is on record as saying they will start issuing licenses on January 10. My personal opinion of that statement is that they will issue a few licenses to instructors early on just to say they have started issuing but the vast majority of people will have to wait the full 90 or 120 days.

hso
October 18, 2013, 09:56 AM
Where are you getting your course price numbers?

Arguments can be made that costs other than those equivalent to a driver's license are a burden/barrier to the poor and minorities. Any price above any existing permit price within the state might be argued as not being reasonable. What's the cost of a driver's license there?

BTW, TN is considered one of the best states for firearms. We're charged $115 for the initial (including the background check) and $50/4yr for renewal. The state has 90 days to issue, but they usually get them out in 30. We're working to get the initial down, but they're already pretty close to the cost of BGC and issuing the permit. Class costs may be a nominal fee if put on by the sheriff's department (yes, some of our LE departments conduct the permit course for almost free here) or range from $50 to $120 by private providers depending upon where you live.

Midwest
October 18, 2013, 10:41 AM
In Kentucky you have to take a 8 hour safety course - $75-$85

Once you have passed the course it will take a month to get the certificate in the mail.

Take the certificate to the county sheriff along with 3x5 photos of you. Have money orders for $20 goes to the Sheriff and another $40 to the state. = $60


Fill out the forms and then wait four to six weeks. You get a notification in the mail and then you go back to the Sheriff and pick up the permit. Kentucky calls it a "CDWL" which means Concealed Deadly Weapons License.

With it you can carry your firearms and/or any other deadly weapon concealed like knives and such. So it is not just a carry permit for a pistol, its more than that.

So total cost $140 to $150
Wait time 1 month for the safety certificate and 1 1/2 month for the actual permit
Total wait = 2 1/2 months+.

Ohio (Butler and Hamilton Counties) on the other hand takes only a few days to a week or so for the entire process from what I heard from friends, relatives and what I read on the net.

USAF_Vet
October 18, 2013, 12:59 PM
Michigan: application fee of $105.
8 hour class, I've seen prices vary from $50 (with discounts) to $150. $100 is a reasonable average.
License has to be issued within 45 days of approval, but there is nothing stating when it must be approved. Due to backlogs, a friend waited almost 5 months to have his CPL in hand. I waited about 60 days to get mine, but also had to make an appearance before the licensing board.

License is good for 5 years, renewal fees are $105. Certain counties require a retraining certification, which, when offered by an instructor cost about $25.

in my case I had a two months wait, $105 for the fee, $75 for the class, and half a day taken off work to go before the board.
I consider myself to be fortunate in not having to deal with a lot of the BS others have to go through.

rem44m
October 18, 2013, 01:15 PM
"reasonable"

Hmm... it seems everyone has a different opinion of what the definition is. Mine would be none of it is reasonable since the right to bear arms is the 2nd amendment, so that should be my "permit"

My state thinks the 46 dollar fee should be lowered, and I agree. I definitely think anything above 50 bucks is UN-reasonable. But I think Illinois politics are unreasonable so I'm probably a bad one to ask. :D

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=27268239

hso
October 18, 2013, 01:46 PM
OTOH, Georgia only requires you to take fingerprints to the probate court and apply for their carry permit. Costs about $75 in total.

County probate courts issue firearms licenses to state residents 21 and older.

What You Should Know:
When you arrive at probate court, you'll need an official form of identification, your payment and a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Submit your application at the court along with your fingerprints. Within five days, a county probate judge will request a criminal history records check and a background check on you. About 30 days later, law enforcement will finish its background check and determine whether you can receive a license.
County probate judges may restrict state residents with criminal records from getting licenses.

If you've been in a mental hospital or drug treatment center within the last five years, you must ask that your county probate court judge approve your license application. The judge will seek a recommendation from the superintendent of your hospital or treatment center, and then determine whether it's safe for you to carry a gun.

FAQs:
How much does a license cost?
While $75 is an average fee for licensing and fingerprinting, costs vary by county. Contact your local probate court for details.

How long is my license valid, and when should I submit my license renewal?
Licenses are valid for five years. At least two months before your license expires, you should go to court to apply for renewal.

SMMAssociates
October 18, 2013, 02:15 PM
In OH, it's about $200, total, which includes the "upcharge" for not having been an OH resident for a while, and includes the class, too.

You can apply in your home County or any adjacent County, and most are coming in under three weeks (new residents may take a bit longer). No "drive to Outer Mongolia" for prints or other silly requirements....

WHERE you can carry in OH is a little messy - buildings we paid for, houses of worship, and schools being the major problems - but it's not "only in your own living room", either.... Some of us accept the Private Property angle that says that your employer can forbid you to carry at work, but we're still fighting the "can't leave it in your car either" problem. Someday....

The folks who insist on "reasonable" restrictions tend to think like DC, where you (apparently) have to buy the gun in DC, but there are no gun stores in DC.... IOW, reasonable to them does not necessarily reflect reality nor "common sense" in the positive definition.

I think we're down to no states refusing to issue licenses at all, although a lot of them make it nearly impossible. And, most of the states that do issue mostly don't restrict us too much, although some of the restrictions are certainly indicative of brain damage on the part of the legislators.

Regards,

joevans
October 18, 2013, 02:26 PM
Hey Folks,

Need to move a little farther south; Arkansas

Course $80-$125 Time: Depends on Instructor 1-6 Hrs

Permit, Background & 2 sets of Fingerprints $141.50 to State.

Time to Issue 10-90 Days. Good for 5 yrs; then a quick refresher and pay the gov't again.

RussellC
October 18, 2013, 02:57 PM
AT POST #7: I'm a lawyer and I dont. I find plenty of idiots breaking the laws and regulations as they exist already...even the most basic of them. I usually find those who classify and ridicule lawyers as a class not be the smartest of folk when it comes to things legal, sort of a childish "I dont understand it, so just make fun of it"! mentality........and I just adore those face changing moments when they need me bad! Dont get me wrong, no insult intended towards you, just an observation I've had after 25 years of practice.

Many of Americas greatest people were lawyers, Abe Linclon for example...You would think folk here would think twice about categorizing any group...I note you sure (nor do I) do not like it when people say "guncrazies" and other such talk, runs both ways. Who do you think gets these laws passed /changed? Who goes to bat when a self defense situation gets you charged? What do you do for a living?

Russellc

goon
October 18, 2013, 10:10 PM
Hey Folks,

Need to move a little farther south; Arkansas

Course $80-$125 Time: Depends on Instructor 1-6 Hrs

Permit, Background & 2 sets of Fingerprints $141.50 to State.

Time to Issue 10-90 Days. Good for 5 yrs; then a quick refresher and pay the gov't again.

Or head farther north. PA is $26 for five years with no training requirement or fingerprints.

Or head farther north to Vermont. No permit at all. Are you a law-abiding citizen? Stick your revolver in your pocket and go to the 711 and don't worry about it.
Personally, I think that is the only suitable solution.
I comply with the law because like most of us, that's the kind of guy I am. But ANY fee to exercise a right is BS, even PA's relatively mild restrictions.

Lost Sheep
October 18, 2013, 10:16 PM
"Reasonable" would be the same amount (and cost) of restrictions on the exercise of 2nd Amendment Rights as on the exercise of 1st Amendment rights.

Requiring a licensing fee is tantamount to charging a poll tax. A qualification test as onerous as a literacy test to vote.

I admit my position is extreme, but how can one administer a basic right? It is like being a little bit pregnant. It is virtually impossible to do a small amount of infringement.

Now, I don't entirely object to the concept, but I do object to having no control or limits on whoever administers the restrictions. Absent that control and accountability, the restrictions are not reasonable, in my opinion.

Lost Sheep

Lost Sheep
October 18, 2013, 10:27 PM
Several months ago I floated this idea and got well reamed for it, but here it is again, stated differently:

I think everyone in the country should be "permitted" to carry anywhere, anytime. Restrictions should be limited to things like blood alcohol limits and other CLEARLY and undisputedly reasonable rules. My earlier suggestion included the idea that everyone in the country upon the age of majority and absent any impairment (insanity, incarceration, etc) be entitled to an ID with which they could walk into any gun store and buy any small arm made. No wait, no background check (except for the validity of the ID) and the ID is free, unchallengeable and revocable only for cause (the aforementioned insanity, etc.)

Pretty much the same rules as applied right after we kicked the British off our shores 200+ years ago.

To me, THAT's reasonable.

Lost Sheep

mdauben
October 19, 2013, 01:34 AM
Hey Folks,

Need to move a little farther south; Arkansas

Course $80-$125 Time: Depends on Instructor 1-6 Hrs

Permit, Background & 2 sets of Fingerprints $141.50 to State.

Time to Issue 10-90 Days. Good for 5 yrs; then a quick refresher and pay the gov't again.

Why not go even further south to Alabama?

Application: $0
Background check: $0
Finger prints: $0
Training class: $0

Processing seems to be running around 2 weeks (in Madison Co.) after which you pay $10 per year (up to 5 years) and they print out your permit. ;)

RetiredUSNChief
October 19, 2013, 03:35 AM
Courts are getting more, and more liberal, and UNREASONABLE in my opinion, as more, and more activist judges seem to want to legislate from the bench. Lawyers love laws, restrictions, and anything that gets them more work.

Interesting how the political definition of "liberal" seems to be quite at odds with the dictionary definition of "liberal" with respects to certain rights, laws, and privileges.

DavidMS
October 19, 2013, 07:31 AM
My question about reasonableness is what is involved in the background check? Why are fingerprints required? What is the content of training?

Once we answer these, then we can determine how reasonable these restrictions are.

Since Illinois requires an FOID, I can't see how its reasonable to do an additional background check or have a waiting period for purchasing a firearm.

Pilot
October 19, 2013, 08:03 AM
The word "reasonable", just like "common sense", is your first tip off you're dealing with anti-gun liberals that possess neither trait.
Exactly. These words are used as a smokescreen to desensitize the recipient of what is actually happening. They are preludes to a lie.

The word "reasonable" is put into legal language to enable the judge to make the call. More, and more these judges are liberal/progressive/statist activists who purposely make the wrong interpretation of the law, and we the people suffer.

JTHunter
October 20, 2013, 12:10 AM
Thank you to those who have posted their state's application fees and other costs. It gives me a frame of reference.

What none of you noted was whether or not those application fees were refundable or not.

Even disallowing the digital fingerprints (I forgot the price on those) whose lowest price I've heard so far was $55.oo, Illinoians are still looking at at least $370 for the costs and that is at least 25% higher than most of you.

And, at 16 hours, Illinois has the highest level of "training" required of all states. This is why they will not allow reciprocity with any other state!

Current/former LEOs and some military get to bypass 8 hours. People with hunter safety classes can bypass 4 hours. I recently contacted IDNR to see if they had records going back to when I took a hunter safety course as part of a high school class but I was told that their records only go back to 1977. :fire: :banghead:

Warp
October 20, 2013, 12:24 AM
Where are you getting your course price numbers?

Arguments can be made that costs other than those equivalent to a driver's license are a burden/barrier to the poor and minorities. Any price above any existing permit price within the state might be argued as not being reasonable. What's the cost of a driver's license there?

BTW, TN is considered one of the best states for firearms. We're charged $115 for the initial (including the background check) and $50/4yr for renewal. The state has 90 days to issue, but they usually get them out in 30. We're working to get the initial down, but they're already pretty close to the cost of BGC and issuing the permit. Class costs may be a nominal fee if put on by the sheriff's department (yes, some of our LE departments conduct the permit course for almost free here) or range from $50 to $120 by private providers depending upon where you live.

My Indiana license was about $35 with no training required and came in 2 weeks.

My GA licenses are about $50, maybe a little more, with no training required and also came in two weeks.

SMMAssociates
October 20, 2013, 03:32 AM
JTHunter:

Ohio will waive the training class requirement if you have OPOTA certification. (That's the "Police Academy" - State-required training course for LEO's & Rentals.)

They wouldn't accept mine. Seems 1968 was too long ago.... :D

The course (the price is set by the "school") was about $100, with a break for members of the club that hosted the course. A refund probably could be arranged if you didn't pass the course, but that never seems to have happened.

IMHO, the Ohio application fee ($65, I think - at least that's what I paid for a renewal a few months ago) is non-refundable. Since falsifying anything on the application is a Felony, that'd be the least of your worries. If you get popped out because of some goofy nit-pick, you may be able to re-apply - I don't know.

IMHO, the price of the course reflects the instructor's wishes more than anything else. Some of them are worth a lot more than others, but the State requirement is essentially the NRA Basic Pistol course plus some coverage of OH's goofy laws.

Regards,

JTHunter
October 22, 2013, 03:54 PM
SMMAssociates - the ISP will do the same for NRA Bqasic pistol course as they do for the LEO's/military - shave 8 hours off. There isn't anybody around here that I have been able to find to get a price on the NRA course.

lobo9er
October 22, 2013, 04:47 PM
....

morcey2
October 23, 2013, 12:43 PM
Interesting how the political definition of "liberal" seems to be quite at odds with the dictionary definition of "liberal" with respects to certain rights, laws, and privileges.
I often describe my political stance as "Classical Liberal" and get all sorts of weird looks from people who know me. I usually tell them to look it up. Liberal means one thing in the United States and the exact opposite in the rest of the world. Thank you FDR et. al.

BTW, if you haven't read Amity Schlaes "The Forgotten Man", I highly recommend it.

As for "reasonable", it has taken the same definitional left-turn as Liberal and The Forgotten Man. The person who defines the meaning of the words used in the debate will win the debate.

Matt

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