Unintentional Discharge with 1911 in Public Bathroom


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Bartholomew Roberts
October 18, 2013, 02:03 PM
A member at AR15.com discharged his 1911 in the bathroom of his place of employment. He was kind enough to share the details as a kind of "lessons learned" to help inform other shooters.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1545936_how_has_your_day_been_so_far___I_just_had_a_ND_in_the_bathroom_at_the_office_UPDATE_OP.html&page=1

The pistol was a Nighthawk Custom 1911 built on a Series 70 style frame. He had gotten into the habit of removing the pistol from its holster and setting it in the toilet seat cover holder while he used the restroom because his holster tended to dump it on the floor without any tension from the belt. The gun fell out of the seat cover dispenser and landed on the muzzle, causing the firing pin to slam into the primer via inertia. Although the gun was cocked and locked with a grip safety, all of those safeties block the sear/hammer and not the firing pin. The gun fired as a result.

I know Series 70 1911s are popular and some may not be aware of the potential for this to happen if the gun lands directly on the muzzle and the firing pin spring is weak. Just a heads up to everyone.

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Sam1911
October 18, 2013, 02:10 PM
And folks wonder why we repeat over and over, DON'T MESS WITH YOUR GUN IN PUBLIC. LEAVE IT IN THE HOLSTER. A HOLSTERED GUN IS A SAFE GUN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got a GREAT reason you need to draw it just because...and you're all professional and stuff. Uh huh.

DON'T.

ClickClickD'oh
October 18, 2013, 02:19 PM
Ditto what Sam says. If there's some reason you need to take your firearm off your person, get a holster that you can take off your person. Remove the holster and firearm as one piece, with the firearm still in the holster.

Of course, unless your job involves going into court houses or jails frequently, there shouldn't be much reason to take your firearm off your person.

Yeah yeah, I know. Everyone has to take that special sit once in a while, and people that take off their firearms tend to forget them in the bathroom (police not exempted). I know a lot of guys who have altered their diets so they never have to take a squat on the clock.

Sam1911
October 18, 2013, 02:22 PM
We just had a very good thread on how to use the seat of ease while carrying. It isn't rocket science, there isn't perhaps just one right way, but there are a LOT of WRONG ways and apparently a lot of people choose poorly.

For further study: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=728205

leadcounsel
October 18, 2013, 02:29 PM
Good to be reminded of this S&T.

While the 1911 is a great platform, there have been handgun improvements over the last century and this in one real issue with the 1911.

All of those who flame modern plastic fantastics should be aware that their 1911s can fire when dropped.

As for the person who experienced this, he is extremely lucky nobody was hurt. Hope he is able to keep his job and not eat too much crow.

SharpsDressedMan
October 18, 2013, 02:48 PM
When you have to dump, and don't want your pistol and holster sitting in plain view, still mounted on your belt and dropped trousers (visible from outside the stall), an option is to place the gun down in the crotch of your dropped pants. Shrouded by the pants themselves, anyone outside the stall cannot see the gun, and you have instant access to it if needed. You "don't mess with it" guys make it all sound so good and safe, IN THEORY, but leaving the gun holstered is not always an option. Develop your own plan "B"; mine works for me.

JTQ
October 18, 2013, 02:52 PM
leadcounsel wrote,
All of those who flame modern plastic fantastics should be aware that their 1911s can fire when dropped.
Only those 1911's without a firing pin safety.

ATLDave
October 18, 2013, 03:11 PM
If your holster dumps your pistol any time there's not belt tension on the holster, then it's probably time for a new holster.

rcmodel
October 18, 2013, 03:13 PM
And if your nighthawk custom goes off after dropping 2 1/2 feet off a toilet lid?

It's time for a Colt or something.

Or, there could be more to the story?

rc

willypete
October 18, 2013, 03:31 PM
Titanium firing pins and strong firing pin springs are your friends.

Walkalong
October 18, 2013, 03:43 PM
Titanium firing pins and strong firing pin springs are your friends. Just what I was going to post, and yes, don't unholster the gun, and if you do, don't lay it on a small slick surface.

Still strange that such a short drop would do it. Weaker than spec FP spring?

ATLDave
October 18, 2013, 03:45 PM
rc', I think it was on the seat cover dispenser. The top of those can be 4-5' off the floor.

And, from the crater in the tile, it looks like it fell straight down onto the muzzle. Which would lead to the greatest inertial velocity for the FP. A weak-ish FP spring and a soft primer... sure, I could see it.

Of course, while nobody wants a dropped firearm to discharge, at least a muzzle-down discharge (which is what guns without FP safeties risk) is the "safest" kind of ND/AD. Now, a gun that goes off muzzle up... :what:

tarosean
October 18, 2013, 03:57 PM
Titanium firing pins and strong firing pin springs are your friends.

While not as light as Ti NHC uses 38/9mm firing pins for their builds

Black Butte
October 18, 2013, 04:03 PM
Gun-happy amateurs like this can get people killed. If you're going to take on the responsibility of carrying a loaded weapon, get training first so you know what you're doing. The general public is not the place to be field testing your methods.

JTQ
October 18, 2013, 04:09 PM
Walt Kuleck and Drake Oldham did quite a bit of 1911 drop testing. They used just about all the varieties of firing pin and spring combinations, including Ti and 9/38 firing pins and were able to get just about anything without a firing pin safety to fire.

bikerdoc
October 18, 2013, 04:21 PM
The situation stated is one of the many reasons I have a paddle holster for all my guns. It slips off as a unit with the gun holstered and goes back on easy. Works for me YMMV.
BTW I carry a 1911.


Note: In my Mod voice, " This is a serious topic, any more snarky attempts at humor will result in a trip to virtual woodshed."
Carry on.

ny32182
October 18, 2013, 04:34 PM
Taking the holster off with the pistol would not have necessarily saved him if it hit the ground at the same speed, at the same angle.

Pete D.
October 18, 2013, 04:55 PM
As noted , the firing pin block on the series 80 Colt would have prevented the accident (most probably)
Pete

el Godfather
October 18, 2013, 05:01 PM
Simple.......A Flaw in design. Reason I never got comfortable with 1911 as carry pistol. Things drop thats ok but such results are not ok.

Fiv3r
October 18, 2013, 05:19 PM
Pretty freak accident, but it does make a case for the series 80...still a lot of cons with it.
I pretty much only go with a paddle holster these days. Take off my gun, take my seat, and put it right on the floor between my feet (private bosses only restroom at my office). Safe and I wont forget my gun.

243winxb
October 18, 2013, 05:33 PM
Good reason to buy a "modern" updated firearm, not some outdated antique. :D:uhoh:

M1key
October 18, 2013, 06:04 PM
Good reason to buy a "modern" updated firearm, not some outdated antique. :D:uhoh:
LOL

Yeah, I know. I hate it when mine does that...

M

Outlaw Man
October 18, 2013, 06:35 PM
A good reminder of one of Newton's little laws.

I don't know that taking the gun out of the holster and placing it anywhere would have crossed my mind.

That was an expensive mistake. Glad no one was hurt, though.

wally
October 18, 2013, 07:49 PM
I'm curious how the safety jumped the notch in the slide when it fired (look at the photo in the original thread). Is this common in such dropped gun slam fires?

jimbo555
October 18, 2013, 08:10 PM
Negligence! Post #6 Sharpdressedman,got it right

RetiredUSNChief
October 18, 2013, 08:39 PM
Gun-happy armatures like this can get people killed. If you're going to take on the responsibility of carrying a loaded weapon, get training first so you know what you're doing. The general public is not the place to be field testing your methods.

Ummm...let's not make an unwarranted assumption that this person, is a "gun-happy armature [sic]".

He's been carrying for a number of years, had an unintentional discharge, and posted what happened as a "lessons-learned" story for others to learn from. There's no indication in his story that he was some kind of gun-happy amateur.


As for the comments with respect to updating to a more modern firearm compared to this "antique":

While I am all for updating and such, and this is as good a reason as any, I am also of a mind that people should carry and handle whatever firearm they choose within the design limitations of the firearm. Know your firearm and handle it accordingly.

Godsgunman
October 18, 2013, 08:45 PM
Personally Im not a fan of the 1911 platform. That aside I use the same method as SharpsDressedMan. My carry rig is a deep conceal pouched velcro waist band since I am in scrubs 80% of the time. When using the bathroom if I standing I just twist the band to the side a little and do my biz. Unfortunately its not easy when it comes to the squatting position so I either take the waistband off and gently place it and the gun down into the pants together or because sometimes that doesnt feel as safe I take the gun out first and safely place them both down into the pants seperately. Key is Never place the gun where it can fall. Either method of placing the gun in the crotch of the pants prevents it from falling and also keeps it concealed.

Sam1911
October 18, 2013, 10:19 PM
#6
SharpsDressedMan
Member


Join Date: February 18, 2007
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 5,564
When you have to dump, and don't want your pistol and holster sitting in plain view, still mounted on your belt and dropped trousers (visible from outside the stall), an option is to place the gun down in the crotch of your dropped pants. Shrouded by the pants themselves, anyone outside the stall cannot see the gun, and you have instant access to it if needed. You "don't mess with it" guys make it all sound so good and safe, IN THEORY, but leaving the gun holstered is not always an option. Develop your own plan "B"; mine works for me.

Yup, but you don't have to remove the gun from the holster to do that. That's really the key. Just fold the belt and holster forward between your legs and the gun and holster will sit right there in the "hammock" made by the crotch of your pants.

They aught to teach this stuff in the "mandatory safety courses" folks clamor for.

VA27
October 18, 2013, 10:26 PM
Bikerdoc and ny32182: I was about 15 feet from a guy who had squatted down to get something off the floor and when he stood up his paddle holster containing a 1911 fell from his waistband and landed square on the muzzle. The floor was terrazo and the hollow point bullet broke up quite nicely, spraying a 25 foot area with fragments of the bullet and the floor. Quite exciting and no one seriously injured. Lots of reports were written, though.

Black Butte
October 19, 2013, 12:37 AM
Ummm...let's not make an unwarranted assumption that this person, [sic] is a "gun-happy amateur".

He's been carrying for a number of years, had an unintentional discharge, and posted what happened as a "lessons-learned" story for others to learn from. There's no indication in his story that he was some kind of gun-happy amateur.

Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.

Deaf Smith
October 19, 2013, 12:46 AM
I suspect his 1911 was 'GI' in no firing pin lock and a weak firing pin spring.

Thus when it dropped and struck the muzzle of the gun the firing pin jumped forward and detonated a soft primmer.

Deaf

RetiredUSNChief
October 19, 2013, 01:16 AM
Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.

The problem I have is that there is no indication that the person was anything close to what you initially described him to be based on the information presented. In other words, it was an unwarranted assumption.

Yes, mistakes can get people killed. By the same token, there aren't any people alive who have not made mistakes in their lives, including with firearms, even if that mistake was something they did as a young novice just learning about firearms as they're growing up. That's what the older and (presumably) wiser amongst us are for...to guide people though these issues.


I would go so far as to say that it's a large indicator of maturity to be able to own up to one's mistakes in public so that others may learn from it as well...hopefully taking something valuable away that might prevent a similar occurance with someone else.

el Godfather
October 19, 2013, 01:33 AM
Carrying a loaded firearm is not a casual activity. Mistakes can get people killed. The time to learn is before you place the public at risk. You wouldn't allow a commercial pilot to skip flight school in favor of on-the-job training with fully loaded passenger jets. The trial-and-error approach is fine when you only place yourself at risk but not when you place others at risk of death or serious bodily harm.
Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.

allaroundhunter
October 19, 2013, 02:04 AM
Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.

I think you are teaching the wrong thing. You are saying it is okay to carry a gun without proper training as long as you don't keep one in the pipe? Okay... :rolleyes:

Get proper training and then carry a gun. After proper training the question of carrying a gun loaded vs not won't even come up.

el Godfather
October 19, 2013, 03:22 AM
I think you are teaching the wrong thing. You are saying it is okay to carry a gun without proper training as long as you don't keep one in the pipe? Okay... :rolleyes:

Get proper training and then carry a gun. After proper training the question of carrying a gun loaded vs not won't even come up.
Clarification
I am NOT teaching anything. I am NOT an expert, and for certain I am NOT a qualified instructor.

This is internet and we share opinions. Someone who takes these opinions as teaching lesson must remember what Clint said "opinions are like xxxxxxxx everyone has one.''

That said, all I was trying to say was that there are different levels of training and expertise related to weapon handling. You cannot assume one set of sop for every level.

RetiredUSNChief
October 19, 2013, 03:44 AM
Well put.

This is a reason I dont advise folks on keeping one in pipe all the time. Nothing macho about it. I have seen big macho guys cry like babies when &$@& happens. Be safe and do not place public at risk. GET proper training AND understanding of your weapon before you even think of carrying a live round. Nothing cool about it.

Errr...

Not having "one in the pipe" kinda cuts down a wee bit on response time in a crisis, does it not?

When the need arises to actually use my firearm, I don't think I want to have both of my hands tied up in racking the slide to chamber the first round.

Just sayin'...

:scrutiny:

Black Butte
October 19, 2013, 04:04 AM
Not having "one in the pipe" kinda cuts down a wee bit on response time in a crisis, does it not?

True, but it's still the lesser of two evils when someone doesn't get the requisite training needed to prevent negligent discharges. It also gives the gun-happy amateur a choice.

The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-01-08/man-accidentally-shoots-wife-concealed-carry-gun

TestPilot
October 19, 2013, 04:40 AM
Few thoughts.

1. Holsters that cannot hold a pistol on its own does not meet my operational requirement. A good holster would have made it unnecessary for the person to take the gun out of the holster and look for a place to put it on.

2. Give thought to getting a pistol that put inertia fire into design consideration.

I understand the reasoning for avoiding series 80 or Schwartz type firing pin block. However, I do not understand what a luxury makers like Nighthawk did not at least incorporate options like light Tinanium firing pin to mitigate this issue.

3. The term "Accident" DOES NOT AND NEVER DID mean there is no negligence involved. Most car accident has a party at fault, but there is no breath wasted on "car negligence" vs "car accident." Only in gun community, people waste their breath over this.

Sure, accidents should be avoided. But, there is no reason why we should invite any more scrutiny for accidents, negligent or not, involving guns than any other accidents that have far more death and injuries involved to the amusement of the anti-gun crowd.

Anyone with a living brain cell knows many place accidents with hundreds of fatalities involve pilot error. But, do you see anyone in aviation community yelling "NO! No plane accident. It's plane NEGLIGENCE!" ?

"AD vs. ND!" What ever.

We already established there is a negligence involved. I don't see any good it would serve to anyone to argue over whether to pick a more or less "finger pointy" term other than some group of people showing their fan status to some gurus that invented this useless term of "ND."

RetiredUSNChief
October 19, 2013, 04:45 AM
True, but it's still the lesser of two evils when someone doesn't get the requisite training needed to prevent negligent discharges. It also gives the gun-happy amateur a choice.

The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-01-08/man-accidentally-shoots-wife-concealed-carry-gun

If one cannot carry a firearm safely in a condition ready to speedily bring to bear during a self-defense scenario, then one should not be carrying a firearm in the first place.

If you have to incrementally disarm yourself (my own term here) by putting more and more obstacles between yourself and a firearm which is actually ready to be used to defend yourself, then what's the purpose?

We could also keep the loaded magazine separate from the gun, as well. Or we could keep the ammunition separate from the magazine, which is also separate from the gun.

Yes, not chambering a round in a carry firearm would have prevented this from happening and scaring the **** out of him when the gun fell and discharged. But so would proper understanding and handling practices in the first place.


A truely "gun-happy amateur" won't care about not chambering a round...because he's a "gun-happy amateur".

And simply following the four rules of gun safety would have preventing that man from shooting his wife.

tarosean
October 19, 2013, 04:50 AM
The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

Both incidents could have been prevented by keeping the firearm in a simple piece of material, also known as a holster.

1911Tuner
October 19, 2013, 07:23 AM
Both incidents could have been prevented by keeping the firearm in a simple piece of material, also known as a holster.

There are all sorts of ways that people get careless with guns besides fingering the trigger and not minding the muzzle.

No gun is as safe if it's dropped as it is if it's not dropped. Be ever mindful of what could happen any time that the gun is being handled...including the effects of gravity.

The bottom line:

Is gun. Gun is not safe.

BILLG
October 19, 2013, 08:21 AM
It is a negligent discharge.

JTQ
October 19, 2013, 08:25 AM
TestPilot wrote,
I understand the reasoning for avoiding series 80 or Schwartz type firing pin block.
It is Swartz, not Schwartz.

Bartholomew Roberts
October 19, 2013, 09:11 AM
I suspect his 1911 was 'GI' in no firing pin lock and a weak firing pin spring.

There have been some questions about how the safety slid out enough to let the slide come back as well. I think it goes to highlight one aspect of responsible firearms ownership - proper maintenance. For example, I know that when I replace the recoil spring in my Hi-Powers, it is time to replace the firing pin spring as well.

el Godfather
October 19, 2013, 09:15 AM
Having in pipe or not is not the issue. Issue is level of training.

That said, I will still NOT take the responsibility of advocating/advising someone to carry it loaded. I just wont. Its totally their OWN choice. I have seen my share of accidents. Thank you very much. I even posted one here a while back.

All the machoism goes right of the window with first handcuff on ya. Just do training, practice and pray you dont have to experience this to understand.

1911Tuner
October 19, 2013, 10:34 AM
I doubt this would have happened with a properly maintained Series 80.

Yep.

At this point, it might be good to note that the 1911 pistol was not designed, nor was it intended to be a CCW weapon. It was designed and intended to be primarily a cavalryman's weapon...maintained in Condition Three until the Baker flag was hoisted.

It was neither designed nor intended to be continuously maintained in Condition One any more than the M1 rifle was.

It can be...but it does carry some risk. As long as we remain aware of those risks...like dropping it...and take care to circumvent them, we generally don't have much of a problem. If we get careless, we can suddenly have a big problem, but the same can be said for any loaded weapon. It's a gun, for the luvva Pete.

hso
October 19, 2013, 11:25 AM
There have been discussions on what to do with your carry gun when you go to the bathroom in the past and the lesson learned that derive from the discussion is to not place your sidearm where you might leave it behind, drop/knock it off.

That leaves a holster secure enough to keep it on you regardless of any inconvenience or removing it and using the "hammock carry" ;) for taking care of business and then reholstering when you're done.

Pilot
October 19, 2013, 11:50 AM
Anyone with a living brain cell knows many place accidents with hundreds of fatalities involve pilot error. But, do you see anyone in aviation community yelling "NO! No plane accident. It's plane NEGLIGENCE!" ?

Well we call that pilot error, as you know, but yeah we call them "accidents" even though most could be avoided if the pilot made proper decisions.

This thread makes me want to get a shoulder holster.

Queen_of_Thunder
October 19, 2013, 12:03 PM
We just had a very good thread on how to use the seat of ease while carrying. It isn't rocket science, there isn't perhaps just one right way, but there are a LOT of WRONG ways and apparently a lot of people choose poorly.

For further study: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=728205
Should that thread become one of the "sticky threads".

HexHead
October 19, 2013, 12:14 PM
If you're going to take on the responsibility of carrying a loaded weapon, get training first so you know what you're doing.


Does Gun Site offer toilet training?

Neo-Luddite
October 19, 2013, 12:29 PM
Holster off the belt (w/pistol enclosed therein) ~rests well in the cradle of the downed trousers while one is on the seat of excremeditation. AND--this procedure makes it unlikely to be left behind as well.

guncheese
October 19, 2013, 12:41 PM
there is no such thing as a accident!
all such occurrences are merely the result of not paying attention.
this applies to planes,trains,automobiles,weapons,chainsaws ect.....

JRWhit
October 19, 2013, 12:51 PM
Every pistol manual I've ever read states in Bold red letters Pistol may fire if dropped when loaded!!!!

Deaf Smith
October 19, 2013, 12:53 PM
True, but it's still the lesser of two evils when someone doesn't get the requisite training needed to prevent negligent discharges. It also gives the gun-happy amateur a choice.

The idea is to prevent accidents like this fool shooting his own wife:

http://cjonline.com/news/2013-01-08/man-accidentally-shoots-wife-concealed-carry-gun
Better option is to get a drop safe gun.

A series-80 Colt 1911, Glock, Sig, etc... or revolver like a S&W, Ruger, Colt, etc.. that is drop safe.

OR... just get an extra-power fining pin spring like those made by Wolf.

The fix is not hard. There are many test where such as Glocks were dropped from helicopters and didn't fire.

Deaf

Potatohead
October 19, 2013, 01:16 PM
delete

Potatohead
October 19, 2013, 01:22 PM
The problem I have is that there is no indication that the person was anything close to what you initially described him to be based on the information presented. In other words, it was an unwarranted assumption.

Yes, mistakes can get people killed. By the same token, there aren't any people alive who have not made mistakes in their lives, including with firearms, even if that mistake was something they did as a young novice just learning about firearms as they're growing up. That's what the older and (presumably) wiser amongst us are for...to guide people though these issues.


I would go so far as to say that it's a large indicator of maturity to be able to own up to one's mistakes in public so that others may learn from it as well...hopefully taking something valuable away that might prevent a similar occurance with someone else.
Im with Chief on this one.

Queen_of_Thunder
October 19, 2013, 01:33 PM
LOL

Yeah, I know. I hate it when mine does that...

M
Well I'm always in the market for those outdated antique's. I'm more then happy to take them of anyones hands for the price of shipping.

Sam1911
October 19, 2013, 02:16 PM
there is no such thing as a accident!
all such occurrences are merely the result of not paying attention.
this applies to planes,trains,automobiles,weapons,chainsaws ect.....
Yup! Of course it does help to keep firmly in mind that every one of us are human with all the lapses of judgment, failures of proper attention, and sheer dumb bad luck that comes with being so.

Fortunately, not all accidents involve grave harm and we have social protocols to address the matter if they do.

Charles S
October 19, 2013, 02:32 PM
Does Gun Site offer toilet training?

No they do not, but the esteemed Mr. Ayoob does cover this in his concealed carry teaching.

tipoc
October 19, 2013, 04:32 PM
Not the first nor last. With a variety of guns.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/mesa/articles/2012/02/20/20120220mesa-police-mans-gun-goes-off-walmart-bathroom-brk.html?nclick_check=1

Another...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/gun-goes-off-inside-auraria-campus-bathroom-stall

and another...

http://yellowtape.blogs.starnewsonline.com/17878/man-cited-after-gun-goes-off-in-cracker-barrel/?tc=ar

One more, that's a little different...

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20121228/NEWS/121229791

That's after about a 5 minute search. If I'd gone another 5 likely I'da found more.

Kinda makes you suspicious of public bathrooms.

tipoc

Black Butte
October 19, 2013, 04:38 PM
If one cannot carry a firearm safely ... then one should not be carrying a firearm .....

*Red lights flash*

We have a winner, folks!

RetiredUSNChief
October 19, 2013, 04:44 PM
It is Swartz, not Schwartz.

But...what if it's anodized?

Oh wait...that's be schwarz...

:neener:

scaatylobo
October 19, 2013, 04:50 PM
Been carrying for a 'few' decades and had to use the mens room more than a few hundred times during those decades.

I have carried a S&W model 10

S&W model 36,442,340,360,640,581,27,28,29 to name the S&W's I still recall.

Colts = commander,combat commander,full sized, and kimbers and other models of 1911's.

Glocks = 27,23,19,17,35,30,30SF,

S&W Sigma,in 9MM & .40 S&W.

And I have not had a ND or any variation with any of the above named and MANY others during the aforementioned DECADES of carry.

I do see that there is always the possibility of a ND,so be as cautious as humanly possible and remind yourself "THIS IS A LOADED GUN".

That might sound silly,but its saved me from damage and embarrassment ---- so far into my 66 th year.

Old Dog
October 19, 2013, 05:18 PM
Lot o' righteousness on this thread, I must observe.

Predictably, most seem of the opinion that the "stuff happens" explanation is not acceptable.

I have seen NDs (I'd actually consider a dropped Series 70 an AD) by the most seasoned gun guys -- in the military and law enforcement -- folks that I couldn't believe would ever place themselves in a situation where the bad thing happened ... I long ago concluded that those who are the most familiar with firearms and have used and carried them the longest ...may be at risk for the complacency bug to bite. Those who would carry a Series 70 would presumably know of the drop risk. I cannot judge the man. However from some of the comments, it seems that some believe this could never happen to them ...

Most of us seem to be in the habit of leaving the handgun in the holster while conducting our business (clearly the optimum solution) ... Apparently, there are out there some others who've always been in the habit of taking their handguns out of the holster when using public facilities.

As a side note, my pre-Series 80 LW and Combat Commanders, sans FPBS, are preferred carry pieces ...

Tirod
October 19, 2013, 10:53 PM
It was asked if Gunsite still teaches toilet training. In fact, just who does? I'd like a by name list and the name of the course offering this enlightened view.

I'm reading some apparent graduates of said training who are certified by their instructors to some apparent standard. Is this something secret written in the IPDA rule book where you have to slip the handshake with the credentialling committee in order to be recognized by them as a "good" shooter? And, if you aren't, is it justified to suggest those who haven't had the training are no better than the byproducts they are eliminating?

Jiminy, let's write the acknowledged experts and ask them to chime in with their views on it. I'm sure we can come up with some interesting debates over the Hammock Technique vs. Leave It In the Holster. What technique do you experts recommend for those evenings when your stomach suddenly suggests worshipping the porcelain god face to face is the task of the moment?

I'll take a moment to discuss Use of the Tactical Toilet in Full Battle Rattle. You are aware you have to be very careful not to lose your M16 in one, right? You can't just prop it up on the ledge next to the seat, and if you do lose it, you can't ask your SO to find you another, and he can't swipe it from a customer truck, in for maintenance. Nope, S4's like me unleash evil Master Sergeants who require the unit to stand down for a serial number inventory, return the stolen M16, make you retrieve yours, and then publicly clean it.

I'd have to say if you haven't spent at least two weeks in the field in full web gear, you aren't sufficiently trained to carry a weapon into any toilet.

Anybody have access to the Secret Service course materials? What does the FBI teach? Special Forces? Rangers? Spetsnaz? German Border Patrol? A comprehensive view of the subject should require a wide ranging view of the subject.

What is important is that some are likely speaking up about something they aren't credentialed to speak about. Seems we need to flush out these imposters, by requiring them to provide copies of their certificates. Then we'll know who's best qualified - they stayed the course and completed it.

We all know that this thread isn't finished until the paperwork is done.

MistWolf
October 20, 2013, 03:07 AM
Yep.

At this point, it might be good to note that the 1911 pistol was not designed, nor was it intended to be a CCW weapon. It was designed and intended to be primarily a cavalryman's weapon...maintained in Condition Three until the Baker flag was hoisted...

The Army had Browning add the manual thumb safety. It was not part of the original design. Browning intended the 1911 to be carried with a round chambered with no thumb safety, relying on the grip safety to prevent UDs. He designed the 1911 to be drawn and fired in a single motion.

1911Tuner
October 20, 2013, 06:19 AM
The Army had Browning add the manual thumb safety. It was not part of the original design.

Yes. I know...and it was specifically the cavalry that requested the thumb safety.

He designed the 1911 to be drawn and fired in a single motion.

Browning wasn't a tactician. He was a designer. He designed what was requested by the people who paid his salary and left the "intent" on how the gun was to be deployed and used up to those same people.

US Army protocol mandated that it be maintained with the hammer down on an empty chamber until action was imminent...at which point, it could be readied and the safety engaged. (Line of departure! Lock and load!)

Or...the safety applied and the pistol reholstered if the mounted cavarlyman found himself trying to hang onto a terrified horse, which was the reason that the US Cavarly asked for it in the first place. They understood then, that a man under stress and in a hurry might forget to take his finger off the trigger before jamming it in the holster.

Faster and simpler than lowering the hammer to half cock, which was Browning's "intended" safety. (Yes, it is. It's mentioned in the patents.)

Finally, they wanted the safety to lock the slide in battery so that jamming it into the holster wouldn't push it out of battery, possibly not immediately returning when it was redrawn...which was entirely possible in a battlefield environment.


Once the emergency had passed, it was to be returned to Condition 3...the same as it was, and always has been for every weapon from rifle to howitzer.

TRX
October 20, 2013, 11:24 AM
I normally use an ankle holster or a pocket holster.that has good retention; I don't have to juggle the gun if I need to drop my pants and sit. I've never used my shoulder rig for CCW, but that wouldn't cause any bathroom adventures either.

MistWolf
October 21, 2013, 03:15 AM
..Browning wasn't a tactician. He was a designer...

What's that got to do with it? He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did. While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked

Pilot
October 21, 2013, 03:56 AM
What's that got to do with it? He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did. While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked
Browning designed guns to his CUSTOMERS specifications. As you say, the 1911 was designed for the U.S. Army. Browning's only thought was to meet their specs, and get the contract. Period. The fact that we can use that design over 100 years later as a defensive tool is a testament to his genius, and a testament to the U.S. Army's requirements for a cavalry pistol.

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 06:58 AM
He still had to explain to his customers why he designed something the way he did.

No. They told him what they wanted, and he gave'em what they asked for.

In case you're interested, it was Jeff Cooper who wrote about Browning designing the 1911 to be carried cocked and loaded, using just the grip safety.

The good colonel has been a little wide of the mark on a few occasions. This is one of'em.

The first 8 pistols that Browning submitted for testing didn't even have manual safeties. They were returned with the request for a manual slide locking safety...and he complied.

So...

How could Browning have meant for the pistol to be carried cocked and locked if it didn't even have a thumb safety until the Cavalry asked for one?

While the 1911 may have been designed primarily with use by the cavalry in mind, they knew it would see use in other units and by civilians as well.

And "other units" were still subject to the same protocol as the cavalry.

And "they" weren't concerned with what civilians did with the pistol. Until Cooper came along, most people who carried the big Colt carried it in Condition 2 or 3 or at half cock, which is likely Browning's true intent if he had one at all. That's how he designed all his other exposed hammer guns. The Model 92 and 94 Winchester are examples, with the half cock being the only safety on them.

The 1911 was designed to allow carry in any mode that the end-user chooses. It CAN be carried cocked and locked...but it wasn't meant specifically TO be carried that way.

Beyond that, I doubt if Browning gave a rotund rodent's rump how anybody carried it. It was an assignment. A job. No more and no less.

Personally, I carry mine cocked and locked.

So do I, unless conditions dictate Condition 2.

SharpsDressedMan
October 21, 2013, 09:02 AM
He didn't say cocked and locked, he said cocked and loaded. While I do not think that is entirely safe, or safe at all, even a cocked and locked gun can (and did) go off. To each their own. We have some "perfect" people who never have "accidents", or whatever we might call those lapses of attention, but it is still a matter of choice, not law. There are times, and in some locales, that I switch the safety to "off" and reholster. I just don't want to fumble at all in the moment, and that gives me an edge of confidence for that moment. I have tried to go too fast in some training actions, and missed the safety during the draw. Whgen I get to safer surroundings, I go back to C&L.

ilbob
October 21, 2013, 09:23 AM
And folks wonder why we repeat over and over, DON'T MESS WITH YOUR GUN IN PUBLIC. LEAVE IT IN THE HOLSTER. A HOLSTERED GUN IS A SAFE GUN.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got a GREAT reason you need to draw it just because...and you're all professional and stuff. Uh huh.

DON'T.
Cops and security guards get bored and think their guns are toys and end up with unintentional discharges on a pretty regular basis.

Leave the thing in the holster and stop playing with it.

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 09:30 AM
Leave the thing in the holster and stop playing with it.

This. I see people unlimbering their CCW pistols in gun stores and the like to clear'em for inspection because somebody asked to see it. Gives me the willies. Leave the thing alone unless you need to draw it.

He didn't say cocked and locked, he said cocked and loaded.

And why would anyone purposely do that, given the option of a manual safety? That'd be a little like carryin' a cocked revolver. Doesn't make sense.

MistWolf
October 21, 2013, 11:00 AM
...And why would anyone purposely do that, given the option of a manual safety? That'd be a little like carryin' a cocked revolver. Doesn't make sense.

What I said was, Browning originally designed the 1911 to be carried that way. The original design did not have a thumb safety. The Army asked for it to be added later. Don't make the mistake I am advocating carrying a 1911 this way, for I am not.

While Browning did design weapons per customer request, he also designed many on his own initiative. Browning was not the only one to submit a handgun to the Army for consideration. His design had to beat out the others, so he did have to sell his design to his customer.

The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked, same as the half cock of the Colt SAA. It may have been originally added so the shooter had the option of carrying the 1911 safely the hammer down on a loaded chamber, but the half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 11:59 AM
Browning originally designed the 1911 to be carried that way. The original design did not have a thumb safety. The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked.

Maybe you should go read the 1910 patents, where Browning refers to the half cock as the "Safety Position" and gives instruction on lowering the hammer to half cock with one hand, describing the modification to the grip safety tang that allowed for that...something that the 1907 and 1909 models didn't provide for.

All of Browning's other hammer guns utilized the captive half cock as a manual safety, by design and intent.

half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

And that doesn't change the fact that the half-cock is a de facto safety. Read the patents.



While Browning did design weapons per customer request, he also designed many on his own initiative.

But the 1911 wasn't one of them.

Browning was not the only one to submit a handgun to the Army for consideration.

Yep. The Savage was the competition.

And for the record...Browning himself didn't submit anything. Colt did. He was working on the pistol under contract for Colt, and he had a team of their engineers and tool makers and designers at is disposal.

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 12:23 PM
I took the liberty of copying from the patent, filed at the US patent office in Ogden Utah, Feburary 15, 1910...page 7, lines 7-12...for your continuing education.

To wit:

"Heretofore, in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act."

If we understand that the only two positions that don't allow the hammer to touch the firing pin are cocked and half cocked, we can extrapolate from these lines that the half cock is the identified and intended safety position.

What is conspicuously missing is his identifying the hammer at full cock with the manual safety applied as a safety position. Perhaps we can speculate that cocked and locked was only intended to be a short-term condition.

If you want to argue the point further, you'll have to take it up with John Mose.

Ryanxia
October 21, 2013, 12:45 PM
I read through the whole original thread and it seemed like a case of inertia from being dropped driving the firing pin into the primer. This was due to a lack of firing pin block in that series of gun. Even if he had pulled the whole holster out with the gun and dropped them it would potentially still discharge.

Definitely not a series of gun worth carrying (I would and do still own guns with a similar flaw but I don't carry them).

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 12:51 PM
I read through the whole original thread and it seemed like a case of inertia from being dropped driving the firing pin into the primer. This was due to a lack of firing pin block in that series of gun. Even if he had pulled the whole holster out with the gun and dropped them it would potentially still discharge.

While it's entirely possible for the firing pin's momentum to drive it deep enough into a primer to light it off, the pistol pretty much has to be dropped dead straight onto the muzzle for it to happen...and from such a short distance...it would also require a pretty weak firing pin spring. Either that, or the firing pin is longer than spec...or both.

Unlikely that it would have fired in a holster that covers the muzzle due to the cushioning effect. It has to be dropped straight down onto a hard surface, like concrete or a solid hardwood floor.

I guess the lesson here is to take the necessary measures not to drop the pistol. Is gun. Gun is not safe.

tipoc
October 21, 2013, 01:06 PM
The fact that we can use that design over 100 years later as a defensive tool is a testament to his genius, and a testament to the U.S. Army's requirements for a cavalry pistol.

Since we're being accurate here:

The gun was not specifically designed for the cavalry. The Army wanted a replacement for their revolvers. An open competition was called for and several pistols were submitted. Which did better than the revolvers and fought it out.
Now the transition was years in the making and Colt and Browning went through a number of versions of the gun and tried 3 different calibers from 1900 till the finally adopted gun in 1911.

The biggest resistance to the change came from the cavalry. They viewed themselves as a elite section of the military and had particular demands. Their field testing resulted in three major changes, a shorter firing pin that did not touch the primer, the grip safety and the thumb safety. They wanted a gun that did not go off when dropped from horse back (at least no more so then their revolvers did and less so if possible) and wanted a safe way of re-holstering the gun between strings of fire and when two hands weren't available for de-cocking. So the thumb safety. They were happy with the changes because it got them what they wanted.

Back to the original subject

The op says that he placed his gun inside the plastic container for the "sanitary toilet seat covers" in the stall. Not on top of it but inside it, he jammed it in there. Now these things are attached to the wall. The seat covers are held inside a paper cartridge that is inserted through the wide bottom of the plastic holder. You can then pull the individual seat covers through the front opening one at a time. He jammed the gun in that front opening. When the thing is full that might work to hold a gun. When the paper is not full a gun can slip down and that's what happened here.

The gun didn't just fall on the floor and go off it slipped through the plastic container and then hit the ground. So what angle it hit the ground at we don't know. What happened to it as it slipped through plastic holder we also don't know. We also don't know what shape the piece was in before it fell. So the main lesson here seems to be...don't drop your gun.

I linked to stories of a Ruger single action firing in a bathroom stall, of a 9mm something, firing as well. So it is not about 1911s. It's about not dropping the gun.

tipoc

Old Dog
October 21, 2013, 01:41 PM
What happened to it as it slipped through plastic holder we also don't know. We also don't know what shape the piece was in before it fell
Anyone take a look at the photos that the OP on the other forum posted? Slide was partially retracted, thumb safety still on ...

And yeah, the pistol is a $2900 Nighthawk, which looks to have been in very good shape.

At any rate, it's not as though the risk of discharge from a Series 70-system dropped dead-on the muzzle from a hard surface from three or more feet is an unknown phenomenon ... that's why we have the Series 80, right?

Tirod noted in an earlier post:
I'm sure we can come up with some interesting debates over the Hammock Technique vs. Leave It In the Holster. I use a modified technique myself, a combination of the "Leave it in the Holster" with the "Hammock." I try very hard to never have to do my business in public restrooms, anyway, but sometimes the call of nature just has to be answered.

taliv
October 21, 2013, 02:26 PM
what i find interesting about this is that nighthawk has a whole page of their pistols that have passed california's drop tests.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns_resp.asp (search by mfg for nighthawk)

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice.

i'm kinda curious if this model was one of them


(i love how the URL for that is "safeguns...")

herrwalther
October 21, 2013, 02:27 PM
If you want to argue the point further, you'll have to take it up with John Mose.

Deal. Find me a Delorean, Doc Brown, and some plutonium. I am sure JMB would be very tickled that one of his contracted projects is more popular than his other designs such as the Hi-Power.

Firearms are inherently unsafe, all taking minute actions to send a junk of metal toward something. The only purely safe firearm is one that is filled with concrete. Anyone who carries on a regular or daily basis must know that safety is a relative term. We can argue all day what is the safest pistol among Glocks, 1911s etc but the bottom line is safeties can fail. Although rarely they do. Keep practicing and carry on.

tipoc
October 21, 2013, 02:46 PM
From OldDog,

Anyone take a look at the photos that the OP on the other forum posted? Slide was partially retracted, thumb safety still on ...

Yeah I did look at the pics and odd that and good that others noted it. It means that when the slide retracted it pushed the thumb safety out and away from the frame from where it usually rests. Normally with the thumb safety engaged it's impossible to retract the slide. With the thumb safety disengaged it's possible to hold the slide by hand and prevent it from moving when the hammer drops and the gun is fired. So the force must have been significant to dislodge the safety in this case. Or something wasn't fit right, something else happened.

From Tally:

what i find interesting about this is that nighthawk has a whole page of their pistols that have passed california's drop tests.

Series 70 guns with lighter weight firing pins and extra power firing pin springs have safely passed California's drop test. This involves a 10 foot drop onto a concrete slab muzzle first and hammer first. But! Not every gun has to do this test, only one sample of a type and as with any gun some things may vary. There is a reason Colt came up with the series 80 safety (the best of the lot IMHO). It makes the gun more drop safe.

Expect that if you drop your piece, no matter what it is, it will go off. Expect it.

Bottom line...Don't drop your gun!

tipoc

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 03:02 PM
I am sure JMB would be very tickled that one of his contracted projects is more popular than his other designs such as the Hi-Power.

John Browning didn't design the High Power. He never saw one. Dieudonne Saive waited for the patents to expire so that he could incorporate some of Browning's ideas into the P35...but Browning died nearly 9 years before it made its debut while working on a stack barrel double shotgun. The pistol that he worked on...a contract for the French army...was the Grande Rendement, which the French determined was unacceptable, and was shelved not long before his death.

The gun was not specifically designed for the cavalry. The Army wanted a replacement for their revolvers.

The US Army got that with the 1907 contract pistols, which Browning also had a hand in. Those were the first ones to have the grip safety...a drop safety for horse-mounted troops...that was an integral part of the design.

So, it may not have been specifically for the cavalry, but that branch had a lot of input on the finalized particulars...like the thumb and grip safeties.

Paul7
October 21, 2013, 06:37 PM
So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

wally
October 21, 2013, 06:41 PM
So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

Frags can do weird things, you could end up on the receiving end of a nasty lawsuit. So lots bad could happen with only a minor injury to a third party.

hardluk1
October 21, 2013, 06:44 PM
Something that a series 70 can do.

splithoof
October 21, 2013, 08:18 PM
The worst that can happen?????
How about some idiot negligently loosing control of his weapon, and my kid getting shot! All this chatter about what "caused" this weapon to discharge, but very little said about the consequences that this person brings by his foolery.
And we expect the non-gun owning public to support us? C'mon guys, get your act together!

1911Tuner
October 21, 2013, 08:20 PM
So what's the worst that can happen, a round goes into the floor?

Wood floor? Yep. Concrete could get interesting.

Or not. The solid concrete would stop the bullet, then the force would drive the gun upward. Any bullet fragments would probably be mostly contained by the barrel before they could escape, and the barrel would likely bulge or even split.

Concrete fragments might do some damage at shoe level. How much is open to speculation unless...

unless...

Hmmm

I've got a couple junkers around here. When I get a little time, I might be persuaded to conduct an experiment. I'll have to rig up a fixture that'll guide the gun straight down onto its muzzle and use an old tire to contain any fragments...maybe with some heavy cardboard in the inside circumference to determine the potential damage from the fragments.

Hmmm

It can be done, but first I gotta get a round tuit. Hard to come by these days.

tipoc
October 21, 2013, 09:11 PM
S&W Shield Safety Alertfrom August 22, 2013.

ALL M&P Shield™ firearms manufactured before August 19, 2013.

DESCRIPTION OF THE HAZARD:


Smith & Wesson has identified a condition where the trigger bar pin could damage the lower trigger in certain M&P Shields in a way that may affect the functionality of the drop safety feature of the firearm, potentially allowing the pistol to discharge if it is dropped.

Any unintended discharge of a firearm has the potential to cause injury, and we ask that you STOP USING YOUR PISTOL IMMEDIATELY UNTIL IT HAS BEEN INSPECTED AND, IF THE CONDITION IS FOUND, REPAIRED.

https://secure05.lwcdirect.com/front/frontQuestionnaire.jsp?linkparam=y&uID=0&p=mpshieldsafetyalert.com&loginType=skipWelcome&clientID=742&campaignID=63

So it ain't just 1911s.

How about some idiot negligently loosing control of his weapon, and my kid getting shot!

One reason I had three kids.

tipoc

MistWolf
October 21, 2013, 09:14 PM
Maybe you should go read the 1910 patents, where Browning refers to the half cock as the "Safety Position" and gives instruction on lowering the hammer to half cock with one hand, describing the modification to the grip safety tang that allowed for that...something that the 1907 and 1909 models didn't provide for.

All of Browning's other hammer guns utilized the captive half cock as a manual safety, by design and intent.

And that doesn't change the fact that the half-cock is a de facto safety. Read the patents.

Oh, good grief! What I said was the following. In bold is the part you snipped out-
The half cock notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips while being thumb cocked, same as the half cock of the Colt SAA. It may have been originally added so the shooter had the option of carrying the 1911 safely the hammer down on a loaded chamber, but the half cock sear isn't enough to hold the hammer if it takes a hard blow such as if the pistol were dropped and landed on the hammer

I never claimed the half cock is not a safety.

If Browning didn't have a method of carry in mind when he designed the 1911, he wouldn't have been able to design it to be carried that way.

I'm sure the cavalrymen were happy to need two hands, while mounted, to bring their new handgun into action. That feature alone would make the 1911 superior to the SAA it was to replace

herrwalther
October 21, 2013, 11:45 PM
John Browning didn't design the High Power. He never saw one. Dieudonne Saive waited for the patents to expire so that he could incorporate some of Browning's ideas into the P35...but Browning died nearly 9 years before it made its debut while working on a stack barrel double shotgun. The pistol that he worked on...a contract for the French army...was the Grande Rendement, which the French determined was unacceptable, and was shelved not long before his death.

Guess my firearm history is a little rusty for that time period.

but very little said about the consequences that this person brings by his foolery.

I am sure most people on this forum knows the effect of a .45 on a person. Legally, if the accidental round did hit someone I am sure there would be plenty of criminal or civil charges for negligence and perhaps unintentional death. Understanding how something happened and how to prevent it is how firearms get better, as well as our handling of them. Before that LEO hung up his 1911 on the coat rack in his bathroom stall, I am sure he thought that was a safe practice. Now because of that AD, you don't do that. Now because of the AD discussed in this thread, you don't shove a 1911 in a sanitation cover dispenser. Lesson learned.

splithoof
October 22, 2013, 01:57 AM
^^^It is no "AD"; it is a "ND". When you loose control of your firearm and it discharges, it is negligence. That is not to be tolerated in my book. That person should loose the legal ability to carry a firearm for some time.

1911Tuner
October 22, 2013, 06:13 AM
Oh, good grief! What I said was the following. In bold is the part you snipped out-

I didn't snip anything out. I copied the lines that addressed the question. The being that the half cock was his intended safety mode, the same as it was on the military contract 1907...1909...and the 1910 models.

Browning had a penchant for designing a part to perform multiple functions. The slidestop alone has five. The disconnect has 2. (And preventing firing out of battery isn't one of them.)

If the half cock had only been intended to function as a hammer arrest, it would have been simpler, cheaper, and faster to make it a simple flat shelf instead of going to the trouble and expense to machine it into a captive notch that effectively locks the hammer and sear.

If Browning didn't have a method of carry in mind when he designed the 1911, he wouldn't have been able to design it to be carried that way.

Oh good grief. (To borrow from you.)

He designed it so that it could be carried in any manner desired....C1, C2, C3, or half cocked. Beyond that, he didn't know or care how it would be carried. He left that decision to the people who were buying the guns, and the army decided that it was to be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber unless and until there was a reason to to to Condition 1...or "when action is imminent."

The only thing that Browning had in "mind" was meeting the US Army Ordnance Board's specs. The manual safety was added in the 11th hour. I'll ask again...How could he have intended the pistol to be carried cocked and locked when it didn't even have a manual safety other than the half cock until he added it...on request...as the final modification?

The thumb safety wasn't even his idea. The belief that he meant for it to be used to continuously carry the pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety applied doesn't follow logic.

1911Tuner
October 22, 2013, 06:37 AM
I am sure most people on this forum knows the effect of a .45 on a person. Legally, if the accidental round did hit someone I am sure there would be plenty of criminal or civil charges for negligence and perhaps unintentional death.

My guess is that a muzzle down dropped discharge onto a solid surface wouldn't result in a serious injury unless it was a wood floor with somebody in the room below. On concrete or tile, any fragments would pose little risk except maybe to the foot of the man who dropped it or the feet of anyone standing in close proximity.

If you fire a bullet straight down into a concrete surface, the bullet will flatten and knock a shallow divot into the concrete, and any fragmentation of the bullet will be minimal. Think about what you find after hitting a steel target. Flattened bullets laying on the ground in front of the plate. If the muzzle is pressed hard against the target when the gun fires, the bullet will be pretty well contained by the barrel, and there's a good chance that it would barely exit, if at all.

As soon as I can jerry-rig a test, I'll see what happens.

Trent
October 22, 2013, 11:06 AM
Interesting to see how that testing turns out, 1911Tuner.

Just a side note, but that the same basic thing that allegedly happened here with a 1911 can happen to most shotguns with the safety on. The safety on most shotguns that have safeties just blocks the trigger, not the pin. Which means a drop can still set them off under the right conditions with sometimes bad consequences. Never try to clear an obstacle with a loaded shotgun (climb a fence, etc).

I got out of the car once and had an H&K USP fall out of a shoulder holster, on to a concrete driveway. The retaining snap had apparently come undone when I removed my seat belt. The gun hit the ground directly on the hammer with my head directly in line with the bore. It was in condition 1 at the time. Damn glad the safety mechanism worked on that firearm. Otherwise the end of the barrel would have been the last thing I ever witnessed on this planet.... took a long time for my heartrate to slow back down after that. And it was the LAST time I ever used a shoulder rig.

Charles S
October 22, 2013, 11:50 AM
It is no "AD"; it is a "ND". When you loose control of your firearm and it discharges, it is negligence. That is not to be tolerated in my book. That person should loose the legal ability to carry a firearm for some time.

Have you ever had a car wreck?.... Statistically the majority of us have over our life. How long should we loose our ability to drive?

1911Tuner
October 22, 2013, 12:12 PM
It was in condition 1 at the time. Damn glad the safety mechanism worked on that firearm. Otherwise the end of the barrel would have been the last thing I ever witnessed on this planet.

Interestingly, that's exactly why the grip safety was added to the 1907, and reappeared on the 1909, 1910, and 1911 models. The gun falling and hitting the ground muzzle up is more likely than landing straight on the muzzle. The heavy, steel triggers coupled with the straight-line operation could conceivably trip the hammer and fire the gun back at the guy who dropped it...or at somebody else. Or...in the case of the 1911...at a horse.

Much more dangerous than landing on the muzzle and firing into the ground.

Interesting to see how that testing turns out, 1911Tuner.

I've been formulating a way to do it, and I may have it worked out, at least in theory. Since I don't have a camera or a recorder, I'll try to arrange for a witness. I may have to pull one up from Carolina Shooters.

Considering the physics involved, I don't believe it'll be as spectacular as most would think. It could well turn out to be much ado about nada mucho.

tipoc
October 22, 2013, 12:16 PM
Where'd the bullet go?

Back to the Pics! I noticed this when I first looked at the pics from the op. Look at the 4th pic down.

This is of the paper cartridge thing that holds the "sanitary rear end gaskets" for the toilet seat. This is the thing that slides into plastic dohicky that the fella stuffed his gun into.

Note that the paper is all torn up. This is the result of a bullet hitting it. That's what it looks like and that's why the fella is showing it to us. Those tears are not the result of the gun slipping through. The paper is shredded.

Note also the direction of the shred.

So one of two things happened. The gun slipped through, hit the floor, discharged and the bullet ricocheted back up into the paper thingamajig. But the direction of the shred bothers me there. Maybe the entire envelope fell? Or...the gun discharged as he was stuffing it into the holder, or as it slipped, blew through the paper and the bullet hit the floor before the gun did.

Either way, make no mistake that the bullet could have hurt someone. In incidents like this one in the past bullets have.

tipoc

mr.trooper
October 22, 2013, 12:23 PM
Yes, the solution is clearly to buy expensive titanium parts for your 1911 ... It certainly cant be to buy a better holster, or to fix your bad gun handling habits.

tipoc
October 22, 2013, 12:54 PM
Yes, the solution is clearly to buy expensive titanium parts for your 1911 ... It certainly cant be to buy a better holster, or to fix your bad gun handling habits.

What would the future of capitalism be if buying a more expensive gun wasn't the solution to my bad gun handling habits? Buying a bigger house makes me more important and a Ferrarri will make me sexy and better looking won't it? So now you say that a $3,000 gun won't make me a gunnaroo? Are you a communist sir or the member of some "consider the lilies of the field" sect?!?

tipoc

HankR
October 22, 2013, 01:26 PM
Hey Sam and Tuner,

It looks as if Walt Kuleck already posted a video (which I found by reading the original thread).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_QkWEiX2eE


There is also supposed to be a report here:

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=88310&highlight=Drop+Test

but I'm not getting that one to load (maybe need to authenticate for the forum first, then search).

Of course, I finally talked the LGS into selling me the Ruger SR1911 (series 70, I believe) for my price about three weeks ago, and was hoping to actually carry the thing this winter. Now you guys are making me nervous.

Hank

Sam1911
October 22, 2013, 01:41 PM
Nervous? Can you manage to poop without playing with your gun? If so, I'm gonna say you'll be just fine.

tipoc
October 22, 2013, 01:45 PM
I saw that earlier and will have to read through it. But I did notice a couple of things in the vid.

Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

The slide does not retract?

I'll have to read further.

tipoc

wally
October 22, 2013, 01:47 PM
Never try to clear an obstacle with a loaded shotgun (climb a fence, etc). Can't over emphasize this!
Family tragedy, had a cousin killed in a hunting "accident" by violating this rule. He was hunting with a buddy, they did it nearly every day after milking the cows, came to the fence, he holds both guns buddy goes over the fence, he hands the buddy both guns, buddy drops one, it discharges and my cousin is killed.


Have you ever had a car wreck?.... Statistically the majority of us have over our life. How long should we loose our ability to drive?
Forever if cell phones or alcohol are involved!

wally
October 22, 2013, 02:20 PM
I saw that earlier and will have to read through it. But I did notice a couple of things in the vid.

Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

I believe they are use resized, primer only cases. I've done this to verify most of my carry guns, although I've never seen the need to go above shoulder height for my purposes. I don't carry a 1911.

HankR
October 22, 2013, 04:09 PM
Where's the bullet go? They mention that they have done 19 drops but no marks to the garage door? and only the garage door to stop a ricochet?

And wearing shorts and tennis shoes?

The slide does not retract?

Walt Kuleck is no dummy. Since he's just checking to see if the firing pin and set off the primer, he doesn't need a (fully) loaded round. I know, "all guns are always loaded", but I'm pretty sure Walt is taking the proper precautions.


And Sam, I'm pretty sure I can poop w/out playing with my "gun", but without advance warning I'd have to really fight the urge to not reach my toe out to catch the gun as I saw it falling. Ouch.

9w1911
October 22, 2013, 04:29 PM
not sure what to say about this, when I first started carrying my non plastic antique i realized how I needed to practice going to the freaking bathroom, you practice how to draw w it, practice how to piss w it. im talking about a gun not 'your' gun lol

1911Tuner
October 22, 2013, 04:41 PM
It looks as if Walt Kuleck already posted a video

Walt used a primed case. I'm gonna use a live round to see what happens when a gun is dropped muzzle down and fires for real.

Stay tuned.

gym
October 22, 2013, 04:52 PM
You never try to catch a falling knife, tool, soldering gun or iron, torch, any sharp object, or especially a gun. But I would go as far as to say that if you have super fast ninja reflexes, you might cushion the drop with a rubber shoe like a sneaker. If it was going to go off, it may not if it hits a soft surface. that's a maybe as it is going to hit the ground, you get to judge if it's better off hitting the rubber shoe or the tile floor.
Mine was similar to Trents, "fell out of a shoulder rig, 2 x in 40 yrs., neither went off, one was German Walther, and one was Glock 30. No more shoulder holsters.
But I did watch, "from a safe spot", a gun store owner, throw a Glock 19 from a 10 ft ladder 10 times in a row. He was proving a point to another mentally challenged gun owner, that it would not go off. I used a concrete wall, between me and the magic trick, as my vantage point.
It didn't go off, he had done this earlier the same day, I would imagine that eventually it will disappoint him.

ATLDave
October 22, 2013, 05:23 PM
And Sam, I'm pretty sure I can poop w/out playing with my "gun", but without advance warning I'd have to really fight the urge to not reach my toe out to catch the gun as I saw it falling. Ouch.

Unless your toe and shoe are made of concrete, there's an excellent chance that the gun would decelerate less quickly upon contact with your foot. That will reduce the likelihood of the firing pin inertia overcoming the spring and setting off the primer. Now, I ain't gonna try it, but....

TheCracker
October 22, 2013, 07:50 PM
That wouldn't have happened with a glock. Heck wouldn't even have happened with a $250 Tuarus.

RetiredUSNChief
October 22, 2013, 08:04 PM
Walt used a primed case. I'm gonna use a live round to see what happens when a gun is dropped muzzle down and fires for real.

Stay tuned.

I know you've got something in mind already for this, and I'm dying to see/read about the results.

I was thinking about a styrofoam block, carved out to hold the gun in the proper position. Two brass or aluminum hobby tubes could be used as guides to keep the block, and thus the gun, properly oriented during the drop. The styrofoam block could then be set up with two vertical guide rods which pass through the guide tube. Raise the block to a given height, secure it with a simple latch/string, stand at a safe distance/shelter, and tug to release.

The styrofoam block will not add any appreciable weight to the jig the gun is in, so effectively you won't be adding any additional weight to the gun as it falls. Might run the block a couple times just to see if you need to add any counter weights to "balance" it such that it falls on it's own, enough to counter the friction of the jig.

Using a more sturdy mounting block, such as wood, wouldn't make it fall faster...but it MIGHT skew the results a little bit by not allowing the pistol to "bounce" like it normally would upon impact. Not sure it that will make a difference, but hey...

Instead of just a tire, perhaps get a round trash can, cut the bottom off so it's just a cylinder, then line it with a large piece of construction paper. The paper will serve to mark the impingement of all the fragments and the cylinder will give you a greater height to measure them by.

Sit the cylinder down inside the old tire so the tire can catch the majority of fragments that make it through. If any do...the cylinder might also give you a better idea of the energy of the fragments. If nothing, or few, escape the cylinder, it'll give you some idea of the element of danger caused by the fragments.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm dying to see how you do this.

Trent
October 22, 2013, 08:55 PM
Would be REAL interesting to see if it could be arranged with a high speed camera and a nice thick piece of LEXAN between the gun and the camera.

Unfortunately those high speed camera thingies cost a lot of other green thingies, even just to rent.

Greg528iT
October 23, 2013, 12:30 AM
Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

RetiredUSNChief
October 23, 2013, 12:47 AM
Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

I don't think it's all that complicated, but hey...any reasonable means, right?

:)

Trent
October 23, 2013, 12:54 AM
Chief, sounds a little complicated. make it simple, a wire pulled tight. a tube similar to one we put on testers rockets. no real weight added to the gun. glue or solder the tube the frame. secure the wire to the floor to the ceiling. stand on ladder, drop. Oh maybe a concrete block on the floor.

Good idea! except for the standing on ladder over gun part. :)

Straw, duct taped to slide.

Drill a hole through both sides of a normal concrete construction block, slide 6' steel rod through. put block on floor. Now you have a concrete block on the floor with a long 6' steel rod sticking up.

Clothes pin with string.

Put gun (via straw hole) on to rod, the clothes pin stops it from sliding down the rod to hit the floor.

Pull string attached to clothes pin, gun slides straight down to hit the floor directly on muzzle.

Bang. Or no bang.

(only problem is if it goes bang, that concrete block will get obliterated)

Edit; I bet you could just use a masonry bit to drill a small hole in an already existing concrete slab to put the rod in, that'd work better and not be as brittle as an open-body construction block.

1911Tuner
October 23, 2013, 07:07 AM
Chief...we're thinkin' along the same lines. I'd use a metal garbage can, though...with a smaller hole in the lid to drop it throuh, and to contain anything that might get out.

My plan is to use the slide and barrel only, wrapped with tape to keep the barrel lugs engaged, with lead ingots attached to compensate a little for the recoil spring's resistance to the slide. It's more likely to drop straight down without the frame, and it's all that's really needed.

My bet is that it won't do much.

When the bullet hits the concrete, it'll stop and deform. The barrel may bulge, because it's essentially a barrel obstruction. Pressure will be well below peak, so it's not likely that it'll split, but if it does...the pressures will vent into the slide, and the bullet may not even clear the muzzle. Or...if it does...it won't have enough velocity remaining to do more than raise a welt. Think about how bullets that hit steel perpendicularly tend to drop or at the very most...only bounce for a short distance.

On the concrete fragments...think about this: You can hit concrete with a ball peen hammer about as hard as the 230-grain bullet would without doing much more than knocking a shallow dent. The fragments would be small, and present little danger beyond a superficial wound to the skin...and they'd launch at a low angle from the impact. A leather shoe would probably stop'em.

That's my theory anyhoo.

Greg528iT
October 23, 2013, 12:35 PM
a styrofoam block, carved out to hold the gun in the proper position
and
Two brass or aluminum hobby tubes could be used as guides to keep the block, and thus the gun, properly oriented during the drop
aligning 2 guide tubes to be parallel to fit to 2 guide rods. sounds harder than aligning 1.

Then finding straight guide rods long enough to test various heights. I assume a test of higher than 3 ft. A length of wire pulled taught would be able to cover 1 ft to as high as you'd want to go.

Since he's committed to dropping a gun on it's nose, soldering a copper tube to the side of the frame or slide won't damage it anymore than it's already going to be, IF duct tape doesn't hold well enough.

A eye bolt can be secured to the floor, wood or concrete real easy.. 1 hole to drill.. drilling 2 holes to secure 2 rods, making sure they are exactly the right spacing as the spacing in the foam, so no binding occurs.. Hmmmmm I'd rather drill just the one.

if the eye bolt stands too proud and or want to have a chance to try multiple impacts without a possible concrete crater to affect the results, use a concrete patio block set flush to the wire.. move the block on each attempt.

Tuner is not worried about bullet splatter or so it seems.. actually I'd rather have my legs above the plane of the impact, just in case of concrete splatter. If one is worried about standing on a ladder, yes a remote release can be quickly made.

Greg528iT
October 23, 2013, 12:40 PM
actually.. if one was not concerned about the thumb safety and slide stop being in place (appropriate pins put in place) the the 1911 already has a perfectly functional guide tube staked to the side. :)

1911Tuner
October 23, 2013, 01:19 PM
I'd rather have my legs above the plane of the impact, just in case of concrete splatter.

I plan to contain it at ground level, either with a metal garbage can or two old tires. I'm adventurous. I'm not stupid. ;)

The more I think about it, the more I have my doubts as to whether the bullet will even make it out of the barrel.

The slide will behave exactly the same as it does when it's on the frame. It'll move when the bullet starts to move. Since the bullet nose will hit the concrete, that means that the slide will move less than a 10th inch at impact. Remaining pressure will continue to drive the slide and barrel backward...against their mass and against the bullet's frictional contact with the barrel, attempting to drive them apart. My bet is that it'll all come to a screeching halt before the bullet can exit...or at least before it can exit with much oomph left.

ATLDave
October 23, 2013, 01:50 PM
Please, please video this test, 'Tuner. I cannot wait to see it.

1911Tuner
October 23, 2013, 02:06 PM
Sorry, Dave. No video camera here. I may be able to talk Hunter into bringin' his down from Raleigh. I'll see what I can do.

Greg528iT
October 23, 2013, 02:47 PM
The more I think about it, the more I have my doubts as to whether the bullet will even make it out of the barrel

It should make it out of the barrel. It may and probably will stop dead at the concrete. The gas pressure in the barrel will drive the barrel UP and away from the bullet once the bullet stops. As you said, the slide will already be heading away from the bullet from the recoil. The pressure will act just like those air hog or water based kids rockets.

wally
October 23, 2013, 03:00 PM
Maybe we should take up a collection so Tuner could rent a Photon hi-speed camera so we could have slow motion video.

ATLDave
October 23, 2013, 03:07 PM
'Tuner, maybe do a little kickstarter project.... http://www.kickstarter.com/

Trent
October 23, 2013, 05:07 PM
Or just call up local camera shops, find out if any have a high speed camera, and say "ok, you're GOING to want to come video this test we're doing."

Curiosity will bring them out with their gear. :)

Just don't forget to put lexan between the camera and the gun, don't want a fragment blowing a hole in some critical piece of that expensive camera.

1911Tuner
October 23, 2013, 07:35 PM
At this point in the plan, I don't think it'll be video tapeable.

(Is that even a word?)

The whole thing will be contained...either in a metal 30-gallon trash can or inside stacked tires. The only reason to have a camera along is to bear witness to the massive destruction...or the lack of it.

After thinking it through, I don't believe it'll amount to much.

But every so often, I'm wrong...so it will be contained.

wally
October 23, 2013, 07:44 PM
I'm betting the bullet clearly makes it out of the barrel for a combination of at least three effects:
The air in front of the bullet will make a "jet" as the bullet moves tending to make space between the barrel and floor.

Every high speed video of bullets leaving a barrel I've seen shows some jets of hot gas exiting in front of the bullet which will also tend to make space between the barrel and floor.

In the ~100 microseconds it takes for peak pressure the barrel may already have bounced up some.


Actually I'd love to see high speed video because the barrel/slide bouncing up may have as much to do with popping the primer as the firing pin moving down -- the vector addition of the barrel/slide bouncing up and the firing pin still moving down, so it could actually be a bit off the floor before the primer pops.

If any of this is what really happens it adds a great deal of randomness as to the size and direction of any fragments because the angle will likely not be 90 degrees to the floor. Bigger the fragment, the greater the potential danger.


Maybe an Email to Mythbusters is in order :)

1911Tuner
October 24, 2013, 04:49 AM
I'm betting the bullet clearly makes it out of the barrel for a combination of at least three effects:
The air in front of the bullet will make a "jet" as the bullet moves tending to make space between the barrel and floor.

Could be, but the slide itself will recoil on its own about a 10th inch, creating a space without the jet's help. That's why I want to do this experiment.

And the jet isn't so much compressed air as it is gas blowby getting around the bullet. I've seen high-speed videos comparing jacketed and lead bullets showing that a lead bullet of the correct hardness obturates and seals the bore much earlier...cutting the gas blowby drastically.

Then, there's the question as to whether the jet/blowby is enough to lift a 3-pound pistol to any significant degree. That's something that only a high-speed video can determine.

The main question...the one that prompts me to do this...Even if the bullet makes it out, is there enough residual velocity after slamming head-on into a concrete floor to present a real danger? On that one, I have my doubts.

I intend to do it with a jacketed bullet in any event.

RetiredUSNChief
October 24, 2013, 05:19 AM
Come on, guys! Give me a little credit here! I know you all don't know me from Adam, personally, but trust me...this ain't rocket science and I'm certainly not proposing anything with tight tolerances here! Hobby tubes are perfectly fine and anybody who can't set up two in parallel, sufficient to serve as guide tubes on rods, must not have heard about using a spacer...like ruler marks or a short piece of 1X8 or 1x10!

:neener:

At any rate, if I might make another suggestion here...

Use a micrometer to do barrel measurements first. Most barrel deformations are typically easily visible with the naked eye when viewed along the axis of the barrel, but a micrometer would give measurements people can see on paper.

1911Tuner
October 24, 2013, 05:45 AM
Use a micrometer to do barrel measurements first.

I'll do that, and thanks for the suggestion. I suspect that the barrel will bulge or "ring" to some degree since we're essentially creating a bore obstruction.

I intend to use just the slide and barrel to insure a dead straight drop. I'll add weight with casting ingots to try and approximate the recoil spring's in-battery resistance...but it may be a little tricky. A 16-pound spring's static preloaded resistance is around 8 pounds. I may only be able to find room for 4 ingots.

Greg528iT
October 24, 2013, 11:41 AM
rocket science no.. and certainly easy, I was talking about easier.

Now to find long enough rods. I have a few sources where to look. I do currently already own stainless safety wire that can be pulled dead straight and run thru the plunger tube. I'd be done with it already if I owned a 1911 I was willing to drop on it's nose.

marv
October 24, 2013, 05:38 PM
Since the safety on a 1911 engages a notch in the slide, what kind of damage did that gun suffer when it ND'd. Or would the safety retain the slide, thereby making it a single shot? Inquiring minds want to know.

wally
October 24, 2013, 06:09 PM
Or would the safety retain the slide, thereby making it a single shot? Inquiring minds want to know.

Go back to the original thread and look at the photo he posted. It appears the safety "jumped" the notch and hung the slide about halfways back. Would seem something must have broken.

1911Tuner
October 24, 2013, 07:40 PM
Go back to the original thread and look at the photo he posted. It appears the safety "jumped" the notch and hung the slide about halfways back.

That wouldn't happen. If the safety was engaged, it would have stopped the slide in its tracks...even if something on the safety broke.

Which is part of the reason for my planned test. I want to see where the bullet will go when the muzzle hits the flo'.

I don't think the guy is tellin' the whole story. I gots me some suspicions. Oh, yes I does.

wally
October 24, 2013, 07:47 PM
That wouldn't happen. If the safety was engaged, it would have stopped the slide in its tracks...even if something on the safety broke.


Did you look at the photo? here is a direct link, not sure it'll work ...
Slide is more like 3/4 back on a second look, safety "engaged" up on the serrations.

http://f.cl.ly/items/083x0H1K3x2n1B1m3t3l/photo-5.png

1911Tuner
October 24, 2013, 08:33 PM
Anybody can stage a photo to prove pretty much anything.

That didn't happen when the gun fired. Go ahead and take it to the bank.

wally
October 24, 2013, 11:55 PM
The original poster in ar15.com admits to doing something "stupid" and opens himself up for ridicule in the hopes of maybe preventing someone else from making the same mistake.

What's the point of faking a photo of the pistol afterwards?

1911Tuner
October 25, 2013, 05:55 AM
What's the point of faking a photo of the pistol afterwards?

Don't know...but that didn't happen when the gun fired with the safety engaged.

The slide would have driven the crosspin hard against the hole in the frame 90 degrees to the direction that it has to move to get it out of the frame.

And the slide would have stopped in its tracks. You can reach over the top of the slide and grasp it and push forward on it with about 10 pounds of force...and keep it from moving when it's fired. Some people who shoot thumbs forward have discovered that they've cause their pistols to short cycle by unknowingly pressing their thumbs against the slide. (And you can.)

The safety won't "hang" in the takedown position anyway. Try it. It'll either pop up to the ON position...or down to the OFF position.

Remove the plunger assembly so that you can get it to stay in the takedown position...then press the muzzle hard against a wall...and try to push the crosspin to the left. You'll see that it's in a pretty hard bind, and because only one side is being driven back...the pin is in a cattywampus bind with the holes.

Didn't happ'n, Cap'n.

There are a few things that the 1911 pistol flat can't do, and...like the myth of blowing up because it was out of battery when the trigger was pulled...this is one of them.

Trent
October 25, 2013, 10:28 AM
The original poster in ar15.com admits to doing something "stupid" and opens himself up for ridicule in the hopes of maybe preventing someone else from making the same mistake.

What's the point of faking a photo of the pistol afterwards?

Maybe the stupid thing that was reported wasn't the stupid thing that happened?

Bugger picker hitting the bangswitch = lots more legal liability for discharge, than "the gun went off all by itself, officer, honest!!!"

OilyPablo
October 25, 2013, 10:29 AM
Very much deeper than originally thought. Good analysis guys.

wally
October 25, 2013, 10:39 AM
There are a few things that the 1911 pistol flat can't do, and...like the myth of blowing up because it was out of battery when the trigger was pulled...this is one of them.

I've done a fair amount of testing on various pistols with primed, resized empties and its clear designers go to great lengths to insure that if the primer pops, the barrel and slide have at least some locking surface engagement to prevent out of battery firing. But I'd never say can't happen -- with so many guns out there the possibility of latent manufacturing defect (God knows I've got my share of defective out of the box should never have been shipped pistols), abnormal wear, or incompetent "repairs", the chance is small but non-zero.

Perhaps this failure to lock the slide by the safety is a quirky failure mode of MIM parts.

OilyPablo
October 25, 2013, 10:47 AM
Perhaps this failure to lock the slide by the safety is a quirky failure mode of MIM parts.

Here we go.

ATLDave
October 25, 2013, 11:12 AM
'Tuner, one other suggestion for your test. I'd love to see if the impact surface/floor makes a difference in whether a gun goes off. I wonder if you could drop first onto wood planks, then carpeted concrete, then bare concrete. I seem to recall some story about a rash of ADs when guys started dropping their guns on battleship decks; purportedly, muzzle-down drops onto dirt or wood barracks floors weren't sharp enough to cause AD's, but thick armor on the deck of battleships was so unyielding that it made the deceleration rapid enough to overcome FP spring resistance. Possibly apocryphal, but maybe worth a little validation?

The reason any of this would matter is that a muzzle-down discharge into concrete, while bad and loud and terrifying, is unlikely to get anyone killed. (I concur with your prediction that concrete will just splatter the bullet.) But if the gun will go off when dropped on a wooden floor, it's possible that someone might be standing beneath the floor on a lower story of a structure. And bullets will punch through wood while retaining lethal velocity. If a wooden floor impact will set off the gun, then the possibility of a full-scale tragedy becomes far more likely.

1911Tuner
October 25, 2013, 11:24 AM
I've already conducted drop tests on various surfaces using primed cases. Wood/plank floor requires about 60% more height to go bang. Carpeted concrete...about 10%.

With a dead straight drop onto bare concrete, using just the slide and barrel...and a firing pin spring with moderate mileage...I got the primers to pop reliably at around 5.5 feet. Below that...around shoulder height for me....the bang/no bang rate was about 50/50. None popped when dropped from waist height. I'm 6'2" tall to put it in perspective.

Then, with an assembled gun, I tried dropping it in several realistic scenarios, from fumbled draw to wounded man to bouncing out of the holster/man on the run to just throwing the gun in the air and letting it spin. I never got the gun to fire on any surface, nor was I able to make it fire on a graveled road with a dead straight drop until I stood on a 6-foot ladder and dropped it from over my head.

The chances of dropping one accidentally in the real world and having it land straight onto the muzzle are slim. Certainly possible, but very slim. The loaded pistol tends to land muzzle up far more often when dropped from waist or shoulder height.

I also tried dropping it at a slight angle...estimated 15 degrees...and only got one ignition in 10 tries on a concrete surface from the ladder. Height...I'd estimate at 10 feet.

It's been a while, so these numbers may not be exact, but they're pretty close.

Greg528iT
October 25, 2013, 12:15 PM
Titanium or steel firing pin?

With a dead straight drop onto bare concrete, using just the slide and barrel...and a firing pin spring with moderate mileage...

1911Tuner
October 25, 2013, 02:08 PM
Steel firing pin. Colt Series 80 type, which is fractionally lighter than standard due to the plunger contour.

Greg528iT
October 25, 2013, 02:57 PM
Those of us with Titanium firing pins, just breathed a tad bit easier.. OK I was breathing easy before. I just like my facts and data. :)

The Wilson site does not say anything I can see (quickly) about the firing pin. I'd assume titanium. Hmmmmm

1911Tuner
October 25, 2013, 04:57 PM
Breathe easy, Greg. Unless you're deliberately trying to drop the gun so it'll hit straight on the muzzle, the odds of it hitting the floor just right in a fumble are so slim, that you're probably more likely to be struck by lightning.

And even if the gods all line up against you, the bullet striking the ground perpendicularly is going to instantly lose so much velocity that it'll present little danger, other than possibly a few tiny fragments.

Seriously, though. If we worried about that .001% chance that we'd be killed on the highway on a given day, we'd never get behind the wheel.

I'd guess that for every 1911 that got dropped and fired, there have probably been 10,000 that were dropped and didn't. We don't hear much about those. Who comes onto a forum and reports that he dropped his pistol yesterday and nothing happened?

*shrug*

Greg528iT
October 25, 2013, 06:53 PM
yeah I was taking it pretty easy. Still just curious about your outcomes. The picture posted leaves me more questions than answers. IF the thumb safety did pop out? (I can't see that it would) there would be more damage on the cocking serrations. How is the slide stuck mid stroke? I suppose the thumb safety could be pinching it but again how did it get popped up? It should be square edge to square edge. Shouldn't the cam inside on the thumb safety hook on the frame in the full up position as well as the full down? Someone besides wilson fit the thumb safety?

Odd Job
October 25, 2013, 07:15 PM
I am aware of one case where an (unspecified) .45 semi-auto pistol was dropped and landed on its muzzle (from around elbow height on a guy who is 5'9"). This was on a tiled bathroom floor in a house.
The chambered cartridge discharged and the round made a significant hole in the floor. Although I don't have any other details, the person who relayed this info to me witnessed the event directly and is reliable.

1911Tuner
October 25, 2013, 09:01 PM
I am aware of one case where an (unspecified) .45 semi-auto pistol was dropped and landed on its muzzle (from around elbow height on a guy who is 5'9").

Certainly possible, and offers proof that changing out the firing pin spring regularly is a good idea.

This was on a tiled bathroom floor in a house.
The chambered cartridge discharged and the round made a significant hole in the floor.

Well...most bathroom tiles are pretty thin, and not much more than glazed Plaster of Paris. When I was a kid, we used to bust old tile squares taped to a clothesline with a pump-up pellet rifle.

Not exactly in the bulletproof category.

1911Tuner
October 26, 2013, 04:40 PM
Update:

I talked to Hunter about this project last night.

He said:

"You're nuts, Gunny. I'm in!"

So, it's probably a matter of a couple weeks.

tipoc
October 26, 2013, 04:49 PM
I don't know how many folks have seen this drop test vid so here...

http://www.intertek.com/product-safety-testing/gun-drop-video/

A 1911 is dropped 6 times with a blank cartridge in it. It goes off once.


tipoc

1911Tuner
October 26, 2013, 06:07 PM
And the announcer said that the hammer released and fired the gun.

And this is why we are vigilant for what we know to be sheep dip.

Trent
November 3, 2013, 11:50 AM
1911; I integrated an anecdote from this thread in to my pistol class yesterday.

"A dropped gun is all trigger, don't grab it"

And..

"Don't drop a loaded gun."

(A student asked about what happens if revolvers were dropped, as we were on a tangent about shoulder holsters and why I don't like them.. and it reminded me of this thread.)

red04montels
November 3, 2013, 01:17 PM
being fairly new to pistols, this was a great read!

kvtcomdo
November 4, 2013, 12:57 AM
ATLDave said:"If your holster dumps your pistol any time there's not belt tension on the holster, then it's probably time for a new holster."


Agree, bad holster.

RX-79G
December 20, 2013, 06:04 PM
"Heretofore, in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act."

The "Heretofore" part is to describe the other technology up to the development of this innovation. So this sentence is not describing the use of the gun in the patent, but other guns "of this class" until this new development. And since the inertial firing pin was something that other pistols "of this class" lacked, you had to use the half cock as a safety position. This section is a prelude to a description of a better way of controlling the hammer when de-cocking, and not a section describing any carry safety system.

Browning developed two different hammer down safety systems to purposely avoid lowering the hammer to half cock. It is a real logical leap to go from the patent's description of other pistols that lacked his patented inertial firing pin as endorsements of that type of carry. If anything, Brownings inventions show a strong distrust of half cock.

The primary function of the half cock notch is to catch the hammer should it inadvertently slip or bounce off of full cock, or slip off the thumb while cocking. It takes a pretty huge imagination to see the quoted passage as anything else.

gym
December 20, 2013, 07:13 PM
There is no excuse for this to keep happening. 44 years of daily carry and I never had a gun fall out of a holster in a bathroom. it's just negligence as far as I am concerned. Take the gun and holster off and stick it in your pants until you are done.

the.batman
December 22, 2013, 01:23 PM
Someone has already mentioned titanium firing pins and extra power springs- that's all I use for what it's worth.

I believe I read you can drop a titanium firing pin/extra power spring equipped 1911 from 60" on the muzzle without it going off.

1911Tuner
December 22, 2013, 01:44 PM
And since the inertial firing pin was something that other pistols "of this class" lacked, you had to use the half cock as a safety position.

"Guns of this class" in this case were the 1907 and 1909s, which did have the inertial firing pins and could be carried at half cock and hammer down...and if I remember correctly...so did the 1905.

The concealed hammer guns all had manual "thumb" safeties.

Browning developed two different hammer down safety systems to purposely avoid lowering the hammer to half cock.

All of Browning's exposed hammer guns used a similar half cock for the safety position...inertial pin or no. The 92 and 94 Winchesters couldn't be maintained with loaded chambers and the hammer full down...so the half cock was the only safe position unless the chamber was empty.

The primary function of the half cock notch is to catch the hammer should it inadvertently slip or bounce off of full cock, or slip off the thumb while cocking.

Then why wasn't a simple flat shelf used instead of going to the trouble of making a fairly complex cut to form the captive notch that interlocked the hammer and sear, and prevented the sear from escaping regardless of how hard the trigger was pulled?

Why do that?

It doesn't follow logic to tie up a machine...tooling...time and manpower and spend money...to do it the hard way.

A flat shelf would have served the same purpose, and it would have been faster and cheaper to produce the hammers with a flat shelf. I'm pretty sure that didn't escape the notice of the engineers at Colt...whose jobs were partly finding ways to reduce production costs and speed up delivery on the contract.

These are questions that we ask ourselves when we're trying to get into a long-dead designer's head to figure out why he did something the way that he did it...because there's always a reason...whether it's apparent to us or not...and regardless of what we may believe.

Designers and engineers never do anything "just because."

If its only function was arresting a wayward hammer, it could have been a lot simpler. It would have been a lot simpler. If you'd ever worked on a contract in a production shop, that much would be apparent to you.

Time is money. A machine in use is money. Tooling is money. A man occupied running that machine is money. The bottom line is money. Not doing it the hard way just because you can.

TheGoldenSaber
December 22, 2013, 02:02 PM
aaaaand there's why I carry hammer down with the safety on. SMH. Like you really need a cocked and locked 1911 at work. Idiots.

RX-79G
December 22, 2013, 02:22 PM
The 1905 is another Browning/Colt patent, not the competition who didn't have inertial pins. Colt isn't competing with its own patents - stating the expectation of firearms users of the time who might know about Winchesters or Mauser's is normal for a patent.

The half cock hook is there so the shooter can't attempt to fire from half cock AND to catch a sear with a broken tip. That hook will catch what a shelf would not.

Please stop telling people that a 1911 half cock is an intended carry safety. Someone is going to take that as advice and get killed when the gun falls on the hammer and fires.

Robert
December 22, 2013, 03:20 PM
The 1911 is designed to be carried cocked with the safety on. I have carried mine thusly for years with no issues. And yes I carried like that at my office. Does that make me an idiot too Golden?

Charles S
December 22, 2013, 05:34 PM
aaaaand there's why I carry hammer down with the safety on. SMH. Like you really need a cocked and locked 1911 at work. Idiots.

You have got to love absolutes! Anyone who carries cocked and locked at work is an idiot.

Therefore by logic... Delta operators are idiots... FBI HRT.... idiots.... LAPD Swat team... idiots... my local sheriff... idiot... me, well obviously I am an idiot... I don't understand the design of the 1911 at all.

Learn something every day.

Bartholomew Roberts
December 22, 2013, 05:52 PM
aaaaand there's why I carry hammer down with the safety on. SMH. Like you really need a cocked and locked 1911 at work. Idiots

Having read your commentary thus far, I'm reminded of the "people in glass houses..." line. I'd guess there are probably several hundred man-years of people carrying John Browning designs cocked and locked without incident in this forum. You seem a bit hasty in your conclusions.

Deltaboy
December 22, 2013, 07:13 PM
Ouch a failure to secure your gun . I am glad no one got hurt and the man did not get FIRED.

RetiredUSNChief
December 23, 2013, 02:50 AM
aaaaand there's why I carry hammer down with the safety on. SMH. Like you really need a cocked and locked 1911 at work. Idiots.

Soooo...

Just what 1911 do YOU have that allows you to carry "hammer down with the safety on"?

Enquiring minds wanna know...

:scrutiny:

SC Shooter
December 23, 2013, 07:56 AM
And I was wondering where they found the people for the Darwin Awards.

RX-79G
December 23, 2013, 01:08 PM
Just what 1911 do YOU have that allows you to carry "hammer down with the safety on"?
None. But did he say he carries a 1911?


I think the guy was a little rude, but I don't really understand EDC with a cocked and locked full sized gun. Sure, HRT does, but they shoot people for a living. Autobody repair or whatever doesn't require that kind of hardware.

IMO.

RetiredUSNChief
December 23, 2013, 01:24 PM
None. But did he say he carries a 1911?


I think the guy was a little rude, but I don't really understand EDC with a cocked and locked full sized gun. Sure, HRT does, but they shoot people for a living. Autobody repair or whatever doesn't require that kind of hardware.

IMO.

Well...this thread IS about an unintentional discharge of a 1911 and people ARE talking about 1911 platforms. Seems to me that this is a reasonable assumption, unless this was taken completely off track. Other pistols don't necessarily apply to this subject, especially when talking about how they work/don't work and unintentional discharges.

Some EDC cocked and locked...some don't. I leave this up to the individual.

However, it seems to me that having an EDC that isn't ready to shoot kinda defeats the purpose. Of course, Glock owners will say that they're more ready to shoot than I am, what with not having a safety with which to place their gun in "cocked and locked" condition.

Carry what you wish and how you wish...just be proficient at it.

:)

Bartholomew Roberts
December 23, 2013, 02:32 PM
I think the guy was a little rude, but I don't really understand EDC with a cocked and locked full sized gun.

You understand why a normal person would want to carry a gun; but you don't understand why they would want to carry a gun so that it could be readily fired?

A single-action semi-automatic would typically be carried in Condition 1 (cocked and locked), Condition 2 (chamber loaded, hammer down), or Condition 3 (chamber empty, hammer down). Condition 1 leaves the gun ready to use as soon as the safety is deactivated and in a mechanically sound gun, usually has multiple redundant systems to prevent unintentional firing.

Condition 2 requires you to lower the hammer on a live round, which offers a few chances at an ND in its own right. Assuming that the cause of the ND in this thread was in fact firing pin inertia, then having the hammer down would not add any additional safety to carry either - in fact, you can't use the manual safety with the hammer down. Additionally, if you want to use the gun, you must draw and cock the hammer simultaneously which requires shifting your grip during the draw process - a step that is bad for marksmanship and retention. It is also a lot easier to flub cocking the hammer than wiping off the safety (especially on something like a Hi-Power with a 32lb hammer spring).

Condition 3 requires you to rack the slide in order to make the firearm ready to fire. This means you need time and usually both hands available to you (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528314&highlight=israeli). The linked thread contains a number of incidents from normal, everyday people who aren't HRT and who are probably really happy they carried cocked and locked instead of condition 3.

Sam1911
December 23, 2013, 03:02 PM
but I don't really understand EDC with a cocked and locked full sized gunIf you're going to carry a gun, carry a gun that will do the job accurately and quickly, in your hands. If you're going to carry a gun, carry a gun in a condition such that it is ready to do that job immediately (violent encounters don't happen in "just a minute, please") and with only one hand if necessary.

If you aren't going to prepare to USE the gun, effectively and NOW, don't bother to carry it. It isn't a magic talisman that wards off danger by riding in your pocket.

RX-79G
December 23, 2013, 03:20 PM
A 1911 is pretty much the same as any other combat gun that has a hammer and no firing pin block when it comes to this discussion. It can be safely carried with the chamber loaded hammer down or cocked and locked. Just like a BHP or older CZ type or PPK. More modern guns are slightly more drop safe, but not really in an important way for safety - since muzzle drop firing is about the safest ND you can ask for.

The 1911 is a great gun - it has the shooting qualities, control placement and trigger to make it very effective. It is no surprise that SWAT teams like it.

However, it is a huge, heavy weapon with primitive safeties. While it seems like blasphemy to say so, it is overkill for EDC by someone who has so little likelihood of ever needing a gun. It takes some real creativity to imagine a scenerio where a plumber or office worker would require the superior first shot and longer range rapid fire capabilities of something like a 1911 when something smaller, safer, (in this case) cheaper would be less likely to cause an ND.


In this case, a smallish plastic DA pistol with a pin block would probably have not needed to be unholstered, if it were unholstered could have been wedged somewhere more secure than on top of a toilet tank, and if it had dropped off the tank, WOULD NOT HAVE FIRED.


So a 1911 is a great pistol for lots of tasks, but the OP's 1911 is a big, heavy, primitive, expensive gun that was a factor in him engaging in behavior that was unsafe. And he's unlikely to ever get anything for that tradeoff, aside from being fired. An ugly little polymer .45 would have prevented the accident and the behavior leading to the accident, and still been more gun than most of us could ever possibly need at our fruit stand job.

Sam1911
December 23, 2013, 03:32 PM
While it seems like blasphemy to say so, it is overkill for EDC by someone who has so little likelihood of ever needing a gun. It takes some real creativity to imagine a scenerio where a plumber or office worker would require the superior first shot and longer range rapid fire capabilities of something like a 1911 It doesn't seem like blasphemy, just monumentally silly, or inexperienced.

A 1911 makes a great carry gun. Probably one of the most comfortable choices you could look to. There are no significant "long range rapid fire capabilities" of any serious merit that someone couldn't suggest are overshadowed by the lower capacity, compared to many other common carry guns.

ALL guns are more than most of us will ever need at our jobs. The 1911 no more or less so than any other.

Blaming the choice of gun here is daft.

RX-79G
December 23, 2013, 03:35 PM
Sam, do you really think the OP would have had an ND if he didn't feel the need to keep his heavy, easy to scratch safe queen with no firing pin safety off the bathroom floor?

A $3000 1911 might be a great carry gun, but it is a poor go to the bathroom gun.

Sam1911
December 23, 2013, 03:46 PM
I don't believe ANY gun should be on the bathroom floor... :confused:

If you don't know how to go to the potty while carrying, well, we've got a few threads on that.

It makes not one tiny...ITSY BITSY... little bit of difference whether you're carrying a KelTec or a Desert Eagle.

A 1911 is a "poor go to the bathroom gun?" Well, I'll have to remember that! :D

RX-79G
December 23, 2013, 04:09 PM
Well, if it can't take a fall from waist height onto ceramic tile without firing, then yeah, it is a poor bathroom gun.

gym
December 23, 2013, 05:25 PM
Do you guys realize that almost 200 posts have transpired on the subject of guns discharging in bathrooms. I think we are becoming a bit too thorough on this topic. Perhaps a Pirelli rubber floor would have solved the problem. But then we would have had to measure the height of the bounce on each gun.

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