Is the Semi-Auto EBR overated?


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bushmaster1313
October 20, 2013, 12:27 AM
I have had a Bushmaster XM-15 for quite a few years:

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/7816/cimg1026e.jpg

Just got a Remington 7615:

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag141/bushmaster1313/6377fc04-b33f-4db6-8652-aa524edaa42f_zps3343d7ad.jpg

I am starting to think that the pump action 7615 might be the better gun.

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MistWolf
October 20, 2013, 12:33 AM
Just about anything is better than a Bushy- except HiPoint and Olympic :evil:

The pump is better for what? If you mean self defense, take it to a carbine class and see how it does. When you do, let us know

taliv
October 20, 2013, 12:39 AM
better at what?

119er
October 20, 2013, 12:50 AM
I don't understand what you mean by "better". Maybe for the laws in your state? To each his own, if you like it that's all that matters.

It looks like a Rem. 870 and a Mossberg MVP had an illegitimate baby.:confused: It kind of trades all the advantages the AR-15 pattern offers for a very short sight radius and awkward magazine release plus more work to cycle the action manually.

A fun gun? Sure, but I think it is a far cry from an AR pattern. Apples to oranges I guess. Or an orange trying to be an apple?

Fast Frank
October 20, 2013, 01:01 AM
Is the semi-auto EBR over rated?

In my opinion, yes.

I see that lots of folks seem to look at the EBR as some kind of big, bad, super dooper gun.

This opinion is on both sides of the gun control argument. The Gunnies want it because it's the best gun there is, and the anti-gunnies want to ban it because it's the worst gun there is.

Me?

Well, I own one, and have fired quite a few others... and I feel like I have a pretty good grip on what it is and isn't.

I also think I have a fair idea of what it can and cannot do.

And armed with that knoweledge I have compared the EBR with other guns of all types.

As far as I'm concerned, It's just another gun.

It's not the most powerful, not the most acurate, doesn't have the most range, Isn't the most deadly, and doesn't offer any special features.

Sure, The EBR has it's good points. The adjustability and light weight make it suitable for use by just about any sized adult. It's mild recoil makes it easy to shoot and train with. It offers good enough accuracy to do just about anything you might want to with it.

But it's not a super dooper killing machine by any stretch of the imagination.

I think things would be a lot less stressful if more people took the time to compare the EBR to the rest of the rifles in the world.

When the truth is known, the urge to ban them would probably whither on the vine.

Jackal
October 20, 2013, 01:11 AM
Truth be told, there isnt really anything an AR cant do as well as a bolt gun nowadays. We have AR's that are just as accurate as a quality bolt rifle, reliability (given a quality rifle is purchased) is a non issue being able to fire upwards of 10,000rds without malfunction and pricing is now almost on par with a decent bolt setup too. There really are few, if any distinct disadvantages to a semi auto rifle when compared to any other action type in the same calibers. About the only real downside to the AR is that it can freeze up. Hence the reason we see militaries around the globe in northern climates using AK's instead.

adelbridge
October 20, 2013, 01:17 AM
I am a die hard ar fan but I am the first to admit they weren't designed for a traditional scope.

hatt
October 20, 2013, 01:18 AM
Looks like the Remington is set up better for what you're doing. Get an AR set up like the Remington and check back.

hatt
October 20, 2013, 01:22 AM
I am a die hard ar fan but I am the first to admit they weren't designed for a traditional scope.
Why is that? You can buy parts to make an AR be whatever you want.

IdahoSkies
October 20, 2013, 01:57 AM
truth be told, there isnt really anything an AR cant do as well as a bolt gun nowadays.

Except if you want a light rifle that fires a non-intermediate cartridge. Until the AR-10 weighs the same as a Winchester 70 or a Remington 700, or any of the great Savages, there will always be a reason for a bolt.

Accuracy-wise, sure. Reliability, despite the nay-Sayers, sure almost all the time it will cycle.

But carry a rifle miles in the back country, up and down steep hillsides for a shot 300+ yards with a serious payload. An AR doesn't fit that bill.

Its a great gun. I own one. But it has its limitations. Use the the right tool for the job.

Jackal
October 20, 2013, 02:21 AM
Except if you want a light rifle that fires a non-intermediate cartridge. Until the AR-10 weighs the same as a Winchester 70 or a Remington 700, or any of the great Savages, there will always be a reason for a bolt.

Even the weight is almost the same as most bolt rifles. The S&W M&P10 weighs 7.7lbs, whereas a Winchester M70 Featherweight weighs 6.7lbs or a Remington 700 BDL weighs in at 7.3lbs. For .4-1 pound difference, you gain quite a lot of utility with the semi auto. That .4-1lb weight difference could easily be made up by using other, lighter gear (such as sights/scope, bino's, GPS, sandwich, heck even a new big cell phone).

If you compare it to a heavier barreled bolt gun, the .308 M&P will be lighter.

Mat, not doormat
October 20, 2013, 04:50 AM
Even the weight is almost the same as most bolt rifles. The S&W M&P10 weighs 7.7lbs, whereas a Winchester M70 Featherweight weighs 6.7lbs or a Remington 700 BDL weighs in at 7.3lbs. For .4-1 pound difference, you gain quite a lot of utility with the semi auto. That .4-1lb weight difference could easily be made up by using other, lighter gear (such as sights/scope, bino's, GPS, sandwich, heck even a new big cell phone).

If you compare it to a heavier barreled bolt gun, the .308 M&P will be lighter.

But you're comparing the lightest AR 10 to a standard weight bolt. Try a Savage Lightweight Hunter, at 5.5 lbs, or a Tikka Lite at 6. 2.1 lbs is a sizable difference, and saying that you can make up the difference in other gear is disingenuous at best. After all, if you're that mountain hunter who's worried about ounces, wouldn't you already be using pretty light gear?

rskent
October 20, 2013, 06:54 AM
Is the Semi-Auto EBR overrated?
No, I don't think so. I think it is the most ergonomic and adaptable rifle there is. If there is something about it that you don't care for you can just change it.
Is it everything to everyone? Well I guess every platform has its limitations. So for some it might not work but for me, it's all I need.

Just about*anything*is better than a Bushy- except HiPoint and Olympic
Thank you. The elitist bull-crap is very helpful. I didn't know HiPoint made a AR. :neener:

hatt
October 20, 2013, 10:34 AM
But you're comparing the lightest AR 10 to a standard weight bolt. Try a Savage Lightweight Hunter, at 5.5 lbs, or a Tikka Lite at 6. 2.1 lbs is a sizable difference, and saying that you can make up the difference in other gear is disingenuous at best. After all, if you're that mountain hunter who's worried about ounces, wouldn't you already be using pretty light gear?
And you're assuming you need a .308 to hunt. Most big game hunting in the US consists of deer and short range. AR15 compatible calibers will easily handle that. You can get low 6 lb ARs. And then "mountain hunting." Come on. Lets just include hunting cape buffalo in thick brush. You still want that 5.5 lb Savage?

I'm not a big advocate of ARs for hunting BTW, just trying to keep things fair around here. Obviously no gun is ideal for every imaginable scenario.

bushmaster1313
October 20, 2013, 11:21 AM
The pump is better for what? If you mean self defense, take it to a carbine class and see how it does. When you do, let us know

As a reliable self defense weapon
Premium on reliability.
I also like the pump because:
(1) It does not load the next round until I am ready.
(2) I find the charging handle of the XM-15 ackward.

jmr40
October 20, 2013, 11:21 AM
Try shooting that pump from prone or any supported position and you'll understand why the semi is better. Even a bolt rifle is faster in those positions.

bushmaster1313
October 20, 2013, 11:27 AM
Try shooting that pump from prone or any supported position

Very good comment.

For me, prone is not an issue.

C-grunt
October 20, 2013, 11:55 AM
If you are talking self defense then a good AR is much better than your pump for follow up shots.

Take three IDPA/IPSC targets and set them up at 10 yards with about 10 feet between them. Time yourself shooting all three with at least 2 rounds on each. The AR is going to be much much faster than your pump.

By the way I am a fan of the 7615. I've never owned one but I do like the concept and everything I've read says they are reliable.

Caliper_RWVA
October 20, 2013, 12:32 PM
As a reliable self defense weapon
Premium on reliability.
I also like the pump because:
(1) It does not load the next round until I am ready.
(2) I find the charging handle of the XM-15 ackward.

1) not sure why loading the next round immediately is a problem. It won't fire until you squeeze the trigger.
Downside to the pump is that you may forget to load the next round (unlikely with practice, but possible)

2) fair enough, but it is only used once when initially loading the first round into the chamber. After that it loads itself and locks back on the last round so you don't have to use the charging often. What about an AR with a side charging handle? Left side charging handles are available as well if that is your preference.

Not trying to say that the pump isn't good. I think they are the next best thing to a semi auto and have considered the Rem 7615 when I found one used. Don't think the pump is any problem with prone. I've a guy shoot a Rifleman score with a pump at a Project Appleseed shoot. Your hands never move from their firing position so it is quite quick to operate.

Lots of guys out there who aren't fans of "EBR's". I personally find the pistol grip and flat stock more ergonomic than a traditional stock so I like them, but to each his own. If it's accurate and you shoot it well, enjoy!

wanderinwalker
October 20, 2013, 01:45 PM
"Over-rated" may be a stretch, but I would agree with the idea the AR-platform is not a be-all/end-all solution to every rifle use.

The biggest one in my mind being hunting. Yes, there are calibers and options that work for medium game, but they may not be as ideal as cartridges you can fire from a lightweight bolt gun. Years ago I had a neat little Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in .260 Remington. It provided much more horsepower than anything you can cram in a -15 chassis and is much lighter than a -10 chassis. (With a longer barrel than you'll find on a lighter -10.)

Next would be long-range and some match shooting applications. Don't get me wrong, I love my match-ready AR-15 Service rifle (see my signature line). But as much as I like it, if I were building a dedicated prone rifle for mid-to-long range, I want better ballistics in something that doesn't throw brass into the weeds. Give me a 6mm, single-shot bolt gun please.

As for shooting a pump, I agree with the others who say try shooting it prone. A semi-auto is superior there, followed by a bolt gun, then a lever, then a pump.

Warp
October 20, 2013, 01:48 PM
I sure as heck don't want a small capacity pump action for defense when I can have a completely reliable standard capacity semi auto.

As a reliable self defense weapon
Premium on reliability.
I also like the pump because:
(1) It does not load the next round until I am ready.
(2) I find the charging handle of the XM-15 ackward.

And this is exactly why.

1) There exists the very real possibility of operator error...especially under life or death stress, on every single round fired. Not to mention that each of those rounds will be slower/take longer to fire than a semi.
2) Sounds like a training/practice/familiarity issue.


Out of curiosity, how many rounds do you have through that AR?

How many defensive courses or matches have you done with it?

SharpsDressedMan
October 20, 2013, 02:05 PM
I think the Remington pump has the same capacity as any AR.....takes the same mags, doesn't it?

Mat, not doormat
October 20, 2013, 05:22 PM
And you're assuming you need a .308 to hunt. Most big game hunting in the US consists of deer and short range. AR15 compatible calibers will easily handle that. You can get low 6 lb ARs. And then "mountain hunting." Come on. Lets just include hunting cape buffalo in thick brush. You still want that 5.5 lb Savage?

I'm not a big advocate of ARs for hunting BTW, just trying to keep things fair around here. Obviously no gun is ideal for every imaginable scenario.

Maybe you could read Idaho Skies comment, the one Jackal initially responded to, again. He was specifically talking about the AR platform's unsuitability for backcountry hunting. To then dismiss that as irrelevant, and then confuse the issue by waving Cape buffalo around is silly.

And since Cape buff have been brought up, no, of course you wouldn't want a super light mountain rifle for them. But you wouldn't want an AR, either. You would probably still want a bolt, just a bigger, heavier, meaner and nastier one.

hatt
October 20, 2013, 05:32 PM
No need to reread Idaho's post. These, "the best gun eva" threads are always silly and bring up a lot of useless arguing over opinions. Choose the gun for YOUR task. And because one gun isn't as suited to one task has no bearing on that gun's virtues. That's the bottom line. But common sense can never prevail and someone's pet gun's qualities are always exaggerated and the flaws never acknowledged.

MachIVshooter
October 20, 2013, 06:59 PM
Overrated for what? Gotta be more specific. Within design parameters and intended uses, overrated is fairly easy to gauge **cough**HK**cough**. But you have to have an apples to apples comparison.

Sure, The EBR has it's good points. The adjustability and light weight make it suitable for use by just about any sized adult. It's mild recoil makes it easy to shoot and train with. It offers good enough accuracy to do just about anything you might want to with it.

Seems as though you consider EBR and AR-15 to be synonymous. I submit to you that the "Evil Black Rifle" consists of basically any autoloader that is patterned after or derived from modern battle rifles or assault rifles. AR-15, AR-10, FAL, G3, SCAR, etc.

When you widen the scope, there are different attributes and detractors. The things you mention apply to the AR-15, but not necessarily others in the EBR genre.

I will agree with others, though, that generally speaking, the EBR class does not make especially good hunting rifles, save for varmints with an accurate AR-15. Their primary advantages are of no use for big game hunting, so you end up with a rifle that is heavier and likely less powerful and less accurate than a good bolt gun. Could I hunt elk with my AR-10, FAL or G3? Sure. But I'd absolutely rather carry my 700 BDL 8mm Mag that is 2/3 the weight and has near twice the power.

NCsmitty
October 20, 2013, 08:00 PM
I grew up on bolt rifles and Remington pump shotguns, and AR rifles just do not feel right to me. Although I have thought that the 458 Socom might be fun.


NCsmitty

goon
October 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
Like anything else, doesn't it depend on what you're hunting?
An AR can be a pretty light handy rifle. Chamber it in 6.8 and I'd call it as good as a 30-30 for medium range deer hunting for your average PA sized whitetail. Even if .223, with the right ammo and careful placement, it'll do.
For hunting Elk out west... nope. It's not an ideal rifle. There are much better choices.

For a rifle that you can start out with shooting 5.56 in a carbine upper, then add a .22 upper, then add a full length rifle upper later... yep, it's great for that. And it's great for a rifle that you can really get involved in building. You can buy a lower for $59, assemble it yourself in your living room with a parts kit later, then add an upper or build your own.
At the end of the day, there is a reason that the AR is as popular as it is.

fragout
October 20, 2013, 08:40 PM
If you are referring to AR's as "EBR's" here, then I would say that they are over rated, and have been this way for quite awhile now, as they are, and have been over priced for well over a decade. (AR15's)

Look at how many companies make complete rifles, and/or components for them now. Prices for this should be lower as the market is flooded with them, but that's not the case.

(Must be capitalism at it's finest......:rolleyes: )

With that being said, there are other semiautomatic rifles that are better by design, materials used to build them, and retain their resale value to a higher degree.
I'm not saying that there aren't decent made AR's out there, but for my money, they aren't worth what they are asking for them.

And NO.... I'm not talking about AK types either.

bushmaster1313
October 20, 2013, 08:45 PM
I should have started this out better.

When I compare my Bushmaster to the 7615 I feel much more confident with the 7615.

However, I have not had any formal rifle training. It would seem that someone who was trained and comfortable with the Bushmaster could do things with it that could not be done with the 7615.

mljdeckard
October 20, 2013, 09:13 PM
I don't have a 7615, but I do have a 760 in .257 Roberts. It still has my dad's elevated peep-through rings on it, it was his brush gun. I COULD use it defensively if I had to, but it wouldn't be the first thing I grab.

I will always think AR-15 cartridges are a bit light for North American game. But my AR-10 isn't.

fragout
October 20, 2013, 09:32 PM
Another example:

JnG sales had a load of SAI M1A Bush rifles for sale at $1299.
Their last load sported a price tag of $1400, and had an Ultimak M8 HG rail on it, as well as an SEI Vortex direct connect flash hider along with their gas lock front sight.

They were "police trade in's" or some such thing.

Not terribly all that high priced, and would still give someone a great rifle with the lifetime guarantee, and excellent customer service along with it.

It still doesn't come close to value vs $$ when compared to an M305 however. (So much for capitalism huh?)

Forged receiver of correct specifications, chrome lined bbl's, and stainless steel gas cylinders to name a few.

ugaarguy
October 20, 2013, 09:38 PM
Dragging this back on topic,
I should have started this out better.

When I compare my Bushmaster to the 7615 I feel much more confident with the 7615.

However, I have not had any formal rifle training. It would seem that someone who was trained and comfortable with the Bushmaster could do things with it that could not be done with the 7615.
BM1313, what about the 7615 makes you feel more confident? That could go a long way to helping us have a productive discussion.

WNTFW
October 20, 2013, 09:46 PM
s the Semi-Auto EBR overated?

It really come down to whether I am buying or selling one.

If I am buying I down play the hype. Next time I will use the term overrated in my initial contact.

If I am selling then it is very underrated.

One thing I have noticed is an AR can shoot very well at distance. Lets take a NM AR15 with handloads and of course good bullets and a capable rifleman. They can achieve high scores. Now somehow that translates to all AR are tack drivers at distance including carbines shooting bottom end ammo no matter who is shooting.

Warp
October 20, 2013, 10:58 PM
Overrated for what? Gotta be more specific. Within design parameters and intended uses, overrated is fairly easy to gauge **cough**HK**cough**. But you have to have an apples to apples comparison.



Seems as though you consider EBR and AR-15 to be synonymous. I submit to you that the "Evil Black Rifle" consists of basically any autoloader that is patterned after or derived from modern battle rifles or assault rifles. AR-15, AR-10, FAL, G3, SCAR, etc.

When you widen the scope, there are different attributes and detractors. The things you mention apply to the AR-15, but not necessarily others in the EBR genre.

I will agree with others, though, that generally speaking, the EBR class does not make especially good hunting rifles, save for varmints with an accurate AR-15. Their primary advantages are of no use for big game hunting, so you end up with a rifle that is heavier and likely less powerful and less accurate than a good bolt gun. Could I hunt elk with my AR-10, FAL or G3? Sure. But I'd absolutely rather carry my 700 BDL 8mm Mag that is 2/3 the weight and has near twice the power.

I'm quoting this because there seems to be some confusion.

Not every poster in this thread realizes that the term EBR is often/generally used to basically mean "modern sporting rifle", just in a sarcastic/ironic way of going about it.

Unless otherwise noted, EBR basically means a pistol gripped semi automatic removable magazine rifle, especially if it uses synthetic furniture, such as a typical AR/Me pattern rifle. It does not, generally, mean "enhanced battle rifle"

Robert
October 20, 2013, 11:11 PM
Enough of the urination contest.

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