4473 forms


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Rusher
March 25, 2004, 08:34 PM
Hey guys and gals

I work at the Wal-mart in gastonia,NC in the sporting goods dept....We just got a new district manager....who claims to have started out in the sporting goods dept......well getting to the point before when potential customer wants to buys a rifle or shotgun we have them fill out the two 4473( asper Wal-Mart policy with carbon paper in the middle.....so they dont have to fill it out twice)......well the new DM says that is not good enough cuz the carbon may fade within the 5 year period that we have to keep them..... so now we have to ask the customer to fill out 2 4473s......i think this is a crock and it will eventually turn away customers........one form can be hard enough to fill out and let alone time consuming so I really think this is and attempt to lower our firearm sales ......so they can justify saying our FFL isnt worth the time and effort and drop the firearm sales all together.........as a customer would this really steam you or just be another Wally-world annoyance that you will deal with for the lower prices ?????????????

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MacPelto
March 25, 2004, 08:41 PM
Around here, Wally isn't that much, if any, cheaper than any of a number of other places, so yes, it would drive me off.

Since you asked....

P95Carry
March 25, 2004, 08:45 PM
If the second one is simply for WM's records then why the heck not photo-copy! It will not do great things for PR I am sure...... coupled with the fact that as Mac said .. in many cases the prices are not by default greatly lower than other places.

It would make me think twice before buying .. gotta say.

jobu07
March 25, 2004, 08:57 PM
Eh, I work at a wal-mart in New York. I'm not a sporting goods associate... But i do help out there a lot (what else does one have to do while at wal-mart for 8 hours other than look at rifles and ammo?) and we fill out one yellow sheet and then make a photo copy after the sale to keep in our records. But we keep'em for 10 years, the DM has nothing to do with it at our store either. Just some intercompany discrepancies i guess.

Rusher
March 25, 2004, 09:02 PM
P95Carry


"If the second one is simply for WM's records then why the heck not photo-copy!"


We(the sporting goods minions) thought of that....well only a "select" few have the code to start up the copier.....that suggestion was shot down real quick and hard.........



Well I could give you guys an e-mail adress to complain if you would like.......I guess this is more for the people in the area


Rusher

hksw
March 25, 2004, 09:13 PM
Huh, small world. I use to live on Union Rd. and work at the WIX (Dixon) plant.

IMO, the price for whatever I was buying would have to be a bit lower (at least $10) than anywhere else to consider filling out the second form. (Gotta say that's the first I've ever heard of such a thing.) Is Jumbo Sports still around?

joab
March 25, 2004, 09:22 PM
Wouldn't that put the store in possession of 2 federal documents saying that I took possession of firearmS?
Where does the first form go. I was under the impression that the form stayed at the location of purchase?
Why does Wally need a back up list?

Jim K
March 25, 2004, 09:23 PM
The 4473 is ONLY for the dealer's records. What is the other one for? Does Wal Mart send one copy to the police or BATFE?

Jim

tc300mag1
March 25, 2004, 09:24 PM
First ive ever heard of filling out a second Form and i just bought a shotgun from wally world 2 weeks ago

Standing Wolf
March 25, 2004, 09:47 PM
Wal Mart is my shopping destination of last choice: too much Chinese junk, and customer disservice seems to be the norm.

Zach S
March 25, 2004, 09:58 PM
having to fill out two 4473s doesn't bother me, since the only thing I buy at wal-mart is ammo anyway.

Rusher
March 25, 2004, 10:06 PM
Guys and gals

The second form is for our records....they stay at least at our store one: at the counter....second in our secure gun room........I guess just in case one gets lost.....and as one of you guys stated ......the second is just for Wally world's retention.........then they are destroyed after so many years....I dont think it's 10 years but it is more than 5.........


For all you THR-ers in the area come visit me and I'll hook you up with a discount for customer satisfaction:D :D .....for all the mis-deeds my fellow wally-world associates( in sporting goods ) have done in the past



Rusher

Trebor
March 26, 2004, 12:37 AM
There is no way I'd fill out TWO 4473's for any store. The .gov requires that I fill out one and if your store REALLY wants a second one for it's own records, feel free to copy it. If the store management doesn't trust you with the keys to the copier, that's your problem. No fair trying to make it MY problem by having me fill out a second, completely unneccessary, 4473.

It's called CUSTOMER SERVICE, not make the customer bend over for your convenience...

Nick1911
March 26, 2004, 12:47 AM
I only bought one gun from walmart becasue I had the chance to take 20% off any one that they could order. (As an employee I get 20% off one item in the store for a christmas bonus... kinda double sided if you ask me, b\c you end up dropping $ in the store for your "bonus" :scrutiny: )

At any rate I got an 11-87 for about $517 so I can't complain. And only one form had to be filled out!

F4GIB
March 26, 2004, 12:57 AM
I would NEVER fill out a second form. The law only reguires one. It stays at the FFL dealer. What possible "legitimate" use is there for a duplicate copy???

Your manager has his head up his ... .

jobu07
March 26, 2004, 01:07 AM
Nick, I used that same little 20% deal to get a SS mini14 out the door for roughly $400 flat. Not bad I though. But it is an interesting tactic of wal-mart to do, they really try to sap as much out of employee payroll to come back to the stores as they can.

Nick1911
March 26, 2004, 01:10 AM
LoL yea, it's a nice perk - for both sides of the fence...
But hey; it gave me an excuse to buy --*another*-- gun!

Nick

joab
March 26, 2004, 04:44 AM
I would NEVER fill out a second form. The law only reguires one. It stays at the FFL dealer. What possible "legitimate" use is there for a duplicate copy???
My point is that it is not a duplicate 4473 it is another 4473 with my sig on it
taht they are not accountable for. A duplicate would not have my signature on it. It would have a copy of my signature which has no legal value should somebody decide to enhance their collection.

Valkman
March 26, 2004, 04:59 AM
I wonder if they tried that crap here - something was up because as I understand it WalMart sells more guns than anyone, yet the store near me suddenly pulled all their guns and said that management has decided to quit selling firearms. ??? There were always emtpy slots so it looked like they sold alot of guns. I don't get it, but then I don't get a 20% discount so I don't buy guns at Wally World. :)

Zach S
March 26, 2004, 01:26 PM
I notice a lot of empty slots at wall-mart too. Same slots, every week. Theyre beside the same rifles and scatterguns that were there last week.

I dont think they sell to many guns.

Greg L
March 26, 2004, 02:17 PM
Aren't the 4473's serial numbered? If so doesn't WM have to account for the ones that they have? If they do, how can they destroy them after 5/10 years? Even if it was a duplicate record of one sale (which makes no sense, copy the dumb thing if you have to have a record) you would think that they would have to keep them also for the 20 years that the official ones need to be kept. :confused:

Ala Dan
March 26, 2004, 06:12 PM
Let Wally World try that crap here, in good ole
Bombingham, AL; and I'm sure they would
see their profit margins dwindle! :( My dealer is
actually cheaper on some models of firearms than
Wally.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

PATH
March 26, 2004, 06:26 PM
There are two Wally world stores withing driving distance of me. Neither makes you fill out more than one 4473. I am surprised as I am in a state where you get your shoes broken on a regular basis as a firearms owner.
If it was really a great price I guess I might be tempted to fill a second one out.

Hkmp5sd
March 26, 2004, 06:43 PM
second form is for our records....they stay at least at our store one:
The original 4473 is for store's records. As long as the store maintains its FFL, it retains the orignal 4473. The same information (excluding the questions section) is also listed in the bound book. So you already have two seperate lists of all guns sold and who purchased them. What is the purpose for having a second original 4473? If the store is concerned about losing the information in some manner, it would be more logical to keep a backup copy of the bound book instead.

TXBera
March 26, 2004, 06:44 PM
Joab had a good point, you fill out the 2nd 4473 with your sig and then someone with a criminal background steals the dup and you have just straw purchased a firearm for a criminal.

The law says one, I will fill out only one. I could always take my biz to Academy down the road.

Hkmp5sd
March 26, 2004, 06:53 PM
you fill out the 2nd 4473 with your sig and then someone with a criminal background steals the dup
Wouldn't work. The 4473 lists the firearm purchased and its serial number. It would also require the dealer go along with the straw purchase since the buyer would not have your identification. If the dealer is involved, he could fake the entire form, including your signature.

MAURICE
March 26, 2004, 09:53 PM
Oh well.
They dont sell the types of firearms I am interested in anyway, other than shotguns. That, and hearing the rumor about firearms of questionable quality (a.k.a. 'seconds') being sold through them, I will not buy a gun from Wal-Mart.

joab
March 26, 2004, 10:24 PM
Wouldn't work. The 4473 lists the firearm purchased and its serial number. It would also require the dealer go along with the straw purchase since the buyer would not have your identification. If the dealer is involved, he could fake the entire form, including your signature.
If you make a mistake on the form all you have to do is crossout the mistake and initial the correction.
I dont know the guy at Wal- Mart and can form no opinions on his character good or bad.
He could very well call his criminal buddy and tell him to come down and get that now virtually untraceable shotgun for the liqour store run next saturday, which he can then sell at any pawn shop because it would not be listed as stolen.
Remember Wal-Mart is the one that got their asses handed to them in Cali recently for shoddy paper work and inventory control.
And I dare anybody to copy my signature. When I was in the Army some joker heard you could order anything you wanted and it would get through. So he ordered a helicopter ( for a tugboat unit) and put my signature on the rquest. We didn't even come close to getting it but I had to see Top and explain myself. After that I created a sig that cannot be duped. Even by an Army trained forger that I know.

Hkmp5sd
March 26, 2004, 10:37 PM
He could very well call his criminal buddy and tell him to come down and get that now virtually untraceable shotgun for the liqour store run next saturday, which he can then sell at any pawn shop because it would not be listed as stolen.
But why go to the trouble? If the dealer is going to sell to a BG, he can just make up the information on the 4473. He is more likely to get caught if he uses an altered 4473 that points to a real person than if he uses a fake person. If the gun is recovered following a crime, the cops would come banging on your door and you'd scream to high heaven about never buying the gun. They then start investigating the dealer. With a fake identity, the dealer can say he thought the buyer was legal and there is no way to trace the gun to anyone.

Nick1911
March 26, 2004, 10:39 PM
After that I created a sig that cannot be duped. Even by an Army trained forger that I know.

Now you don't have to anwser this, seeing as I understand that it could compromise the validity of the sig, but how did you go about creating it? Like what characteristics make a sig copy-proof?

Nick

P95Carry
March 26, 2004, 10:51 PM
Like what characteristics make a sig copy-proof Never sure about copy proof but .. I used to know a handwriting expert who worked for several banks and financial institutions.

He said that whilst a forgery could reasonably pass real quick scrutiny .. he had seen few that actually stood up on analysis. Bit like forged notes .. they can be good .. but something is always just not right.

Much is down it seems to the extremely reflex manner in which we sign ... it is so imprinted and linked to cerebral and muscle memory .. as to be automatic. In fact ... I expect many people have found that if they pause and deliberate over their sig' .. it seems to ''go wrong'' a bit.

The pressure of pen, the sequence of movements, the ''flow'' of various parts, does make it very hard to forge totally.

Be interested tho to hear Nick's question answered ... even if just excplaining the mechanics thereof.

joab
March 26, 2004, 11:52 PM
The pressure of pen, the sequence of movements, the ''flow'' of various parts, does make it very hard to forge totally.
Thats it
Now create unnatural movements, flow, and pressure points and practice it about 10,000 times (no joke I filled 3 legal pads on a saturday, I was that POed) until it becomes second nature to you but would be almost impossible for any body else to do and look natural. Anybody who has been in the Army knows you sign your name alot especially if you are assigned to R&U. And with my job now I sign my name at least 20 times a day. I can't sign my name differently if I try now.

Ive had forgers, artists and various other people that I have seen copy the sigs of the DOI almost perfectly try to duplicate it and only one has and he was an artist with stuff in museums and a forger and it took him 2 hours.


And I realize that my scenario is completely farfetched, but many things that happen today are farfetched untill they happen. I always have a bad feeling when somebody asks me to more than the law requires ,just for their convience. And the less fedreal documents I have floating around with my name on them the better.

JohnKSa
March 27, 2004, 12:18 AM
I wouldn't fill out two forms unless they're going to give me two guns.

Looks like they're just trying to raise the hassle factor...

Kestrel
March 27, 2004, 03:56 PM
I absolutely would NOT fill out two 4473s. I already resent filling out one, but would definitely not do a second one for some company that can't keep their records straight.

I'm skeptical as to the excuse they're giving, anyway.

I don't like Wal-Mart, myself. I only go there when I'm out with my wife and she just has to stop there for something. I don't go there otherwise. I definitely don't buy any guns there. I bought a shotun ONE time and the two women in the gun department (who obviously didn't like their jobs), did everything they could to make the transaction as drawn out and difficault as possible. They acted like they were handling biological toxins and acted like they didn't like anything about selling the guns. That was the only and LAST time I'll buy a gun there.

I also don't like the cheap junk they sell, I don't like the crowded isles that are hard to get through and the crowds of shopping carts and screaming kids. It's just not my kind of store. (I loke kids, just don't like an overload of crowded baskets with screaming kids everywhere you turn. I don't like having to find someone up front to page someone to meet you in a department for help. And then, sometimes, they are Mexican and speak poor English. (No - I don't dislike Mexicans. It's just when someone is working in customer servive IN AMERICA, they should be able to speak English UNDERSTANDABLY.)

Wow, I really sound like an old curmudgeon...

Steve

BlkHawk73
March 27, 2004, 04:24 PM
I don't buy any firearms at Walmart. Don't even bother to look. I'd much rather spend a few bucks more at my local gunshop than to save a little at Wally's Empire.
Anyways, just out of curiosity and boredom, I e-maileda letter to Walmart. Wonder what - if any - response will include.

joab
March 27, 2004, 11:51 PM
I don't buy any firearms at Walmart. Don't even bother to look. I'd much rather spend a few bucks more at my local gunshop than to save a little at Wally's Empire.
I have agree with BlkHawk. The few dollars you save supporting the Chinese war machine is not worth the harm you cause American small businesses.

c_yeager
March 28, 2004, 05:29 AM
No way in hell would i fill out two forms. If walmart isnt responsible enough to hang on to the original and carbon copy then i would hesitate to even let them have ONE form.

dukeofurl
March 28, 2004, 05:04 PM
This I dont understand. The LICENSEE (Wal Mart) retains the 4473 anyways, its not like its being sent to the ATF for processing.

So they want a copy of a something they're retaining anyways?

Kooter
March 29, 2004, 05:40 AM
this is wrong and you need to talk to your district manager. or higher up if he doesn't take care of the situation. the proper procedure is to make a copy on the copy machine and file that in the gun room in alphabetical order, and the original under the sporting goods counter by date. making a customer fill out 2 forms is ridiculous and a waste of time and money. the old way of doing it was to make a carbon copy, but that was stopped several years ago in favor of using the copy machine now. you need to work your way up the "chain of command" until you get this taken care of. remember to stress all the customer complaints and the fact that this is terrible customer service. remember your cheer "WHO'S NUMBER 1?"


as to the people that think wally world sells seconds. don't know why you would think that. we order all our firearms from lipseys, sports south, etc the same place that everyone else in the country gets their firearms through. if you truly believe that they have a little corner of their warehouse reserved for "factory seconds that only go to wal-mart" instead of realizing the awesome quantities of firearms(and therefore large discounts in quantity) then there is nothing i can do to help you understand. don't forget that wal-mart is THE largest retailer of firearms in the country.

joab
March 29, 2004, 12:23 PM
don't forget that wal-mart is THE largest retailer of firearms in the country.
As well as the largest employer of Chinese labor. And how about them radio tags.

Kooter
March 29, 2004, 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
don't forget that wal-mart is THE largest retailer of firearms in the country.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As well as the largest employer of Chinese labor. And how about them radio tags.


it is also the largest employer of US workers also, other than the military.

joab
March 29, 2004, 02:05 PM
it is also the largest employer of US workers also, other than the military
How many are the former owners and employees of the Mom & Pops that they put out of business not to mention their documented cases of illegal alien employees.
And how about there recent imminent domain transgressions

BluesBear
March 29, 2004, 04:04 PM
Now before this thread gets derailed completely and get's shut down by the moderators.

Don't blame Wal-Mart for the demise of the Mom & Pop stores. History has shown that whenever there is a more efficient way of doing something that someone befefits while someone else fails.

Of course I do miss all of those Mom & Pop keyboard makers. When is the last time you saw a computer keyboard that was made in the USA? Most of you have NEVER seen one. I have never personally seen a PC KB made in America. My very first PC back in 1988 had a keyboard made in Japan.

And what happened to all of those little neighborhood shops producing VCRs? Guess what. There never made VHS machines in America.

Look at all of the American name brands that are produced overseas. Who do you blame for that? Think about WHY an AMERICAN company changed THEIR products from domestic made to foreign made.

Wal-Mart is, by far, the single largest private employer in the USA.
EVERY store sells something made outside the US.
Winchester has ammo made in other countries.
Where do you think Aguila, PMC, Sellier & Bellot, Magtech and others are made?

How many of us own a Walther, Sig, HK, Taurus, Beretta, Whetherby, Browning, Norinca, Charles Daly or any of the other miriads of weapons made elsewhere? Anyone here own a AK or SKS? How about a Mauser? A Makarov or Sistema or a CZ pistol? Where do you think those were made? Cleveland?
Some of you with your fancy custom made 1911 pattern pistols might be suprised to learn where many of them were forged or cast. Just because it has an American name on it doesn't mean it was made in America.

A neighbor of mine has a Ford Excuse, ooops, I mean, Escape and a Mazda 626. Same engine in both.


Gun shops are one of the few "industries" that are actually thriving in spite of Wal-Mart and other big chains. They are thriving because they can offer something Wal-Mart can't and that is individualized service.
Nobody shops at Wal-Mart because they are treated so well. They shop there because it CHEAPER and everything is under one roof.

My local Wal-Marts do not sell tires cheaper than Firestone or Les Schwabb.
But you can't buy groceries or CDs, a new VCR-DVD player, the latest copy of Shotgun news or (shock, gasp) ammunition while you're waiting to be rotated and balanced at Firestone.

Sure when I am already at Wal-Mart I often will pick up one box of whitebox .45. But I don't make a special trip there to do it. I can buy ammo just as cheap at my local shops. I only buy a box now and again at Wal-Mart because I want them to continue to sell guns and ammunition.
Hells Bells I'd buy it for $2.00 a box more at Safeway or Albertsons (Kroger & Winn-Dixie to y'all back east and in the south) if I could.

Let's face it friends, that Global Economy the talking heads have been spewing about, it's already here and has been for years. And there's no way it's gonna change.

And don't bring up that "hiring illegal aliens" hogwash. If they weren't allowed to stay here no one could hire them. So that's another Government problem not a Wal-mart problem. But the liberals know that if you have a drivers license you can get reqister to vote. And if you have a voter reqistration card you appear to be a citizen. And if you are an illegal alien and you vote you are more likely to vote for the liberal idiot that allowed you to have that drivers license.

joab
March 29, 2004, 04:59 PM
BluesBear
I resent the implications in your post. We do to have Albertsons down south.

And don't bring up that "hiring illegal aliens" hogwash. If they weren't allowed to stay here no one could hire them. So that's another Government problem not a Wal-mart problem. But the liberals know that if you have a drivers license you can get reqister to vote. And if you have a voter reqistration card you appear to be a citizen. And if you are an illegal alien and you vote you are more likely to vote for the liberal idiot that allowed you to have that drivers license.
Just because they're here does not mean that it is ethical for a company that built their empire on the "Made in America" slogan to hire them. Hell I pass hookers and crack dealers every day but I don't do business with them.

Riffraff
March 29, 2004, 05:37 PM
I don't like buying at Bass Pro Shop's Outdoor World just because they don't let you abreviate (I know it is spelled wrong). I darn sure ain't buying anywhere I gotta write my full address twice! I am lazy. ;)

My fav Mom and Pop knows me well enough that 1) I pay the same for ammo as I would at Outdoor World or Wally World. 2) They can fill out most of the the form for me :D All I have two do is answer some questions and sign.

Heck I think it might be easier to leave my DD214 there!

joab
March 29, 2004, 05:57 PM
I don't like buying at Bass Pro Shop's Outdoor World just because they don't let you abreviate
If you are talking about 4473 that's the law. No abbreviations
My fav Mom and Pop knows me well enough that 1) I pay the same for ammo as I would at Outdoor World or Wally World. 2) They can fill out most of the the form for me All I have two do is answer some questions and sign. Are you saying that you have to fill out a form to get ammo

Riffraff
March 29, 2004, 07:48 PM
No not for ammo but anytime I buy a firearm of they are kind enough to start the Name/address part etc.

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