Revolver Defense


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Tipro
October 20, 2013, 05:35 PM
I heard a story from a friend that I found pretty interesting and figured some of yall would too. Perhaps a debate about how his partner should have reacted could be had.

When a rookie cop, my friend and his partner responded to a domestic dispute. They walked up to the house and knocked. A man opened the door and immediately put a revolver right in my friend's face. Before he could react, his partner reached out and grabbed the revolver by wrapping his hand over the top and squeezing the cylinder, preventing it from rotating. Apparently things got physical and when the revolver was wrested from the man the cylinder was in mid-rotation, indicating the trigger had been pulled before the partner got his hand on the cylinder.

Tried it out on my Smith and sure enough this would work; just had never thought about it before I guess.

Pretty interesting way to get your life saved, and I wonder if the partner had reacted in the way I would have - drawn my weapon and react as necessary - if my friend would have been shot that day.

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David E
October 20, 2013, 06:08 PM
Seems to me someone should've shot the badguy at some point instead of "getting physical."

MikeJackmin
October 20, 2013, 06:19 PM
It works if the revolver has not been cocked yet.

PBR Streetgang
October 20, 2013, 06:26 PM
we revert to our training in shtf situations,,,,,,,,,,,the cylinder has to lock up before it fires so the hammer can be partially back and the revolver won't fire......there are some other techniques that can be utilized also......

strambo
October 20, 2013, 07:40 PM
Seems to me someone should've shot the badguy at some point instead of "getting physical."
Well, at gun-in-your-face range, going physical is a lot faster. ~1/2 second to grab the cylinder (and/or strike the threat). 1 sec + to draw and fire, then as witnessed in the state trooper video thread, a fatal COM shot can still let the BG get back in his car and drive away. The grab probably did save his life.

Deaf Smith
October 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
Just as quick to do a gun disarm than to grab the cylinder and 'hope' the gun isn't cocked.

There are several good disarms that you can find on Youtube.

Look for Krav Maga disarms, or Sytsma.

Deaf

David E
October 20, 2013, 08:21 PM
Well, at gun-in-your-face range, going physical is a lot faster. ~1/2 second to grab the cylinder (and/or strike the threat). 1 sec + to draw and fire, then as witnessed in the state trooper video thread, a fatal COM shot can still let the BG get back in his car and drive away. The grab probably did save his life.
I didn't say NOT to grab the cylinder, since, luckily, it worked. But if the bad guy gets his gun free, he's pulling the trigger.

I think it's imprudent to take that risk. There's nothing noble about waiting to get shot before returning fire.

Tony_the_tiger
October 20, 2013, 08:33 PM
Not to take away from the situation but you can also have a revolver at rest without the cylinder locked up. You can close the cylinder in a way that it does not lock up. So, the gun could have technically been in this position without the trigger being pulled.

woodwrkr
October 20, 2013, 08:36 PM
When I was a teenager one of my great uncles, a retired deputy sheriff, demonstrated the grab the cylinder technique to me. I guess we could give the friend in the above scenario the benefit of the doubt and say he could see the hammer and could tell it wasn't cocked, or at least I hope he could.

My great uncle also demonstrated that grabbing the slide of a semi auto won't work the same as grabbing the cylinder of an un-cocked revolver. Not a good idea to grab a semi auto pistol.

MedWheeler
October 20, 2013, 09:48 PM
This was common knowledge back when sixguns rulled the roost in cops' holsters, and was included in LE training (at least, where I was working.) It was also a possible means of disabling one's own revolver while fighting for possession of it.

Probably nothing more than "a good thing to know" these days..

willypete
October 21, 2013, 02:16 AM
There was an excellent thread about "tricks of the trade" of using revolvers a while back. There was mention of turning the revolver opposite the direction of cylinder rotation if someone was holding your cylinder as a means of preventing discharge on a double-action trigger pull. There's a hell of a lot more leverage at the grip of the gun than at the cylinder.

Voici:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=708393

mdauben
October 21, 2013, 11:00 AM
Tried it out on my Smith and sure enough this would work; just had never thought about it before I guess.
There's a similar trick you can do with semiautos, by grabbing the gun in such a way as to move the slide out of battery. Kudos to his partner's quick reactions, but your friend is quite lucky it worked, though, as I would not want to bet my life on either technique.

pezo
October 21, 2013, 11:50 AM
I believe their is also a way for the revolver shooter to counter that move by rotating their shooting hand one way thus allowing the shot to go off. Like twisting hand and wrist while pulling the trigger.

camsdaddy
October 21, 2013, 11:58 AM
Yes I was taught if someone grabs the cylinder to rotate the firearm as I pull the trigger and it will shoot.

ArchAngelCD
October 21, 2013, 02:27 PM
This was common knowledge back when sixguns rulled the roost in cops' holsters, and was included in LE training (at least, where I was working.) It was also a possible means of disabling one's own revolver while fighting for possession of it.

Probably nothing more than "a good thing to know" these days..
I was about to say the same thing. Back then this was part of your training.

Also, with a semi-auto, if you push up against the slide hard enough if a gun is shoved into your body somewhere it will come out of battery and not fire. (not that I would want to do that! LOL)

PJSprog
October 21, 2013, 02:39 PM
Simply grabbing the cylinder will only delay the inevitable. You cannot hold that position indefinitely, especially in a fight. It has to be part of a greater disarming plan, and needs to include an instant redirection of the muzzle. With a quick jerk and a bit of luck (element of surprise), you can twist the revolver back across the back of the hand. This offers several benefits to you; 1) you are no longer in the line of fire, 2) the bad guy is now in the line of fire, and 3) his finger is likely trapped in the trigger guard, enabling you the option of either pulling back and breaking (and possibly detaching) his finger, or pushing forward and discharging it in his direction ... with his own finger.

This can work on semis as well. It's success depends entirely on the redirection, though. A S/A semi can be fired with your hand around it, of course, so you need to be somewhere other than in front of the muzzle. However, it will not cycle correctly in such a grip, rendering follow-up shots impossible without a manual clearing. Again, needs to be part of a greater strategy to disarm the bad guy.

While definitely not the best options for ending a gunfight, if they're your only options, they can work.

2zulu1
October 21, 2013, 03:33 PM
This was common knowledge back when sixguns rulled the roost in cops' holsters, and was included in LE training (at least, where I was working.) It was also a possible means of disabling one's own revolver while fighting for possession of it.

Probably nothing more than "a good thing to know" these days..
That was SOP during our training also, there's more to it than simply grabbing the cylinder, but for this thread that will suffice. Also, pistols like the 1911/BHP, getting the web of one's hand between the cocked hammer and firing pin will negate firing the pistol, but this also is only part of the continuum.

My question is, why was the officer standing in front of the door rather than off to the side?

armsmaster270
October 22, 2013, 02:13 AM
I was taught that trick as well as others when I was about 10 by my dad who was a 23 year motorcop total of 30 years. every 6 months the officers were taught the latest tricks & holds by the FBI. He came home and showed and practiced with my brother & I. He taught us to hip shoot starting about 7 yrs old.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/armsmaster270/Family/dad50s.jpg

19-3Ben
October 22, 2013, 08:41 AM
Before he could react, his partner reached out and grabbed the revolver by wrapping his hand over the top and squeezing the cylinder, preventing it from rotating. Apparently things got physical and when the revolver was wrested from the man the cylinder was in mid-rotation, indicating the trigger had been pulled before the partner got his hand on the cylinder.

It sounds like hand went over the cylinder, THEN there was a tussle of some kind, THEN the revolver got wrestled away from bad guy. I can't think if a way to know exactly when that cylinder was turned unless one of the cops saw the hammer going back and cylinder turning when it was pointed at your friend's head.

As pointed out above, a cylinder can also be closed without going to a lockup position.

Either way, the cool head and trained hand of an experienced cop very well may have saved your friend's life. I'd say your friend owes him a darn nice bottle of single malt.

Iggy
October 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
Use to teach that to recruit Highway Patrolmen. If you did it right and with enough force, you could just about tear off the guy's trigger finger.

If you grabbed it right, your hand could prevent a cocked revolver from firing, but with a risk of a nasty rip in your hand from the firing pin. What's a fellow officer's life worth? A ripped hand is a pretty fair trade in my mind.

strambo
October 22, 2013, 05:48 PM
I didn't say NOT to grab the cylinder, since, luckily, it worked. But if the bad guy gets his gun free, he's pulling the trigger.

I think it's imprudent to take that risk. There's nothing noble about waiting to get shot before returning fire.

You completely missed my point. I wouldn't grab the cylinder either (and certainly wouldn't "wait" to get shot). You questioned going "physical" vs. shooting. My point is at very close range doing something physical is more effective than shooting. A gun disarm while crushing their throat, for example. Way more effective than drawing your gun and shooting them as they are shooting you and you see who bleeds out first.

Action vs reaction. His gun is out, you react by drawing and firing, he reacts by shooting. You both likely get hit and even if you hit his heart, he'll still be conscious long enough to see it to the end one way or another.

His gun is out, you react by punching him in the throat (can be done as fast as grabbing a cylinder). When all your body weight slams into his throat via your fist, his gun is no longer pointing at anything but the ceiling if it is even in his hand still (just physics and anatomy). If it goes off, so what. He can't breathe and before he can recover, you can finish him off.

Of course, there are infinite things you can do, classic H2H training doctrine would say secure the firearm and control the field of fire, then (better yet, simultaneously) strike until they are no longer a threat.

I shoot out in the woods as opposed to a formal range. If I get a jam or go empty close to the targets, I close and strike my targets to the ground without hesitation. Way faster than standing there (even side-stepping) while clearing the jam, or reloading, or even transitioning from say AR to pistol.

Eliminate the close threat, use the firearm the way it is designed to injure at distance. By close, 12ft is kinda the grey area to me between shoot or hand to hand. 12ft torso to torso is only 6ft fingertip to fingertip and can be closed in a fraction of a second.

I have practiced drawing and shooting at about 9ft, but I am running offline while doing it and prepared to seamlessly transition to strikes.

When I train hand to hand, I often have a training gun on me, I practice drawing to cover threats at distance, if it is in my hand and things get close I transition to strikes.

At the range is the opposite, mostly shooting, but again, if I go dry close up, I transition to strikes.

It's interesting to watch a shooter run a close up drill with a reactive target (falls when hit COM). They may shoot 2 (misses) and assess with the target still up, or they will go dry and just stand there (target still up).

Before the drill I tell them to shoot until there is no longer a threat and the target falls, so it isn't like I'm setting them up for failure or tricking them.

It's really hard to a) overcome square range "training scars" (I still have some) and b) find a safe place to train more realistically, not to mention c) get the realistic training in the first place so you know what to practice.

Deaf Smith
October 22, 2013, 05:49 PM
Try this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK90rpSVRtQ

Go to 7:20 or so to see a double disarm.


Or this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42XVq1Khtpw

Deaf

BSA1
October 22, 2013, 06:44 PM
I find it simply amazing that one poster can draw, fire and hit his opponent faster than the opponent that is holding his loaded gun at the poster can simply pull the trigger. I would love to see a video of that.

But since we are talking about quaint questionable techniques I personally know two officers who saved their lives by reaching over the top of the gun putting the web of their hand between firing pin and back of frame thus resulting in the firing pin of the hammer hitting the web of the hand. Both officers would admit it was simply a desperate split second move.

Iggy
October 22, 2013, 07:10 PM
You should have seen Bill Jordan in action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Jordan_%28Marine%29
Takes 3/4 of a second to react. He was quicker and accurate too.

strambo
October 22, 2013, 07:30 PM
Just a thought; simply disarming an attacker doesn't solve the problem. As you are taking the gun, they can be beating you to death. I'm not a fan of the disarm and point it at them kinda of technique (this just reverses the roles, they can physically attack you the same as you did to them).

I'm more a fan of the clear the line of fire while injuring them into a non-functional state kind of technique.

David E
October 22, 2013, 07:41 PM
You completely missed my point. I wouldn't grab the cylinder either (and certainly wouldn't "wait" to get shot). You questioned going "physical" vs. shooting. My point is at very close range doing something physical is more effective than shooting. A gun disarm while crushing their throat, for example. Way more effective than drawing your gun and shooting them as they are shooting you and you see who bleeds out first.

No, you missed MY point: the OP states the partner grabbed the gun, THEN things got "physical." It was this window of time I was referring to when I said someone should've shot the bad guy before it got "physical."

IE; grab bad guy's gun, draw own gun, shoot bad guy.

I never said anything about drawing and firing on a drawn gun and expecting to win in the described scenario.



.

David E
October 22, 2013, 07:54 PM
Takes 3/4 of a second to react. He was quicker and accurate too.

3/4 of a second to react ?? Not unless there's a physical impediment.

A typical reaction time for someone expecting an impending start signal (think of runners in the starting block waiting for the gun) is 1/4 second. The fast guys are, well, faster than that. Bill Jordan was one of the faster guys.

Now if you're talking about someone seeing something, assessing the risk and deciding to act (calm husband suddenly pulls gun 10 minutes into the domestic disturbance call) then 3/4 of a second is VERY fast to react to that.

.

strambo
October 22, 2013, 10:09 PM
Roger David, I see what your saying. I consider grabbing the revolver going physical, albeit in a less efficient manner than just striking them in the first place which is where I'm coming from.

The OP didn't go into details but I'm sure once the cylinder was grabbed it became an immediate tussle, hard to get a field of fire clear of your partner when they are going at it would be my guess.

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