Why was the HK P7 discontinued?


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460Kodiak
October 24, 2013, 12:49 AM
It seems like in today's market with the interest in carry options, it would do great.

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horsemen61
October 24, 2013, 12:51 AM
I'm guessing the cost to make it was way to much to Jusitify it anymore.

Edarnold
October 24, 2013, 02:00 AM
Unlike today's modern designs, which can be cranked out by CNC machinery and assembled with a minimum of fitting, the P7 required some fancy machining and careful fitting. So, not only high priced but requiring a skilled work force. Exactly the opposite of current corporate management practice, which either hires for minimum wage or ships the manufacture to the Third World.

I agree that when I see postings about how we need a compact reliable single-stack 9mm auto loader, I'm tempted to point out that they were just born thirty years too late.

tarosean
October 24, 2013, 02:28 AM
While sleek and stylish.. they were heavy. Weighing more than a comparable LW commander. with the M10 (40SW) weighing in more than a full size 1911.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2013, 02:32 AM
There were many things working against the P7M8 and M13 when they were discontinued.

1. Cost - When the M8 was going for close to $1200 and the M13 nudging $1400, they could see they were losing market share. Their answer was the USP who's price point was about half that...just under $600 IIRC

2. Weight - The P7 was always heavy with it's all steel frame and machined slide. At the time Glock was being introduced and polymer guns were the coming thing

3. Magazine capacity - While other guns were starting at 15 rounds, the largest capacity P7 was 13...plus P7 mags have always been pricy; but they'll last forever.

4. Caliber - the .40 was becoming popular and the P7M10 was just ugly; the P7M7 just never worked right

JohnBiltz
October 24, 2013, 03:35 AM
Its simple they could not sell them at that price. They were very expensive compared to other guns. That squeeze cocker was not something that people wanted. Note that no one else has come out with one since then.

Edarnold
October 24, 2013, 03:36 AM
There were many things working against the P7M8 and M13 when they were discontinued.

1. Cost - When the M8 was going for close to $1200 and the M13 nudging $1400, they could see they were losing market share. Their answer was the USP who's price point was about half that...just under $600 IIRC

2. Weight - The P7 was always heavy with it's all steel frame and machined slide. At the time Glock was being introduced and polymer guns were the coming thing

3. Magazine capacity - While other guns were starting at 15 rounds, the largest capacity P7 was 13...plus P7 mags have always been pricy; but they'll last forever.

4. Caliber - the .40 was becoming popular and the P7M10 was just ugly; the P7M7 just never worked right

Funny thing is, while contemporary polymer guns and built-to-a-price-point guns are selling for half their original price or less, a P7PSP will set you back $600 to $800, while a P7M8 is still going for $1000 to $1200. So this unfashionable heavy ( 26oz? ) single stack 9mm is still an object of desire for those who want a special quality in their pistol. There is a difference between a gun based on a collection of features selected by the Marketing department, and a gun that is designed by engineers to satisfy a purpose. Shoot a P7 for a while, and you may become a believer.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2013, 05:03 AM
Oh, I'm a fan...always have been. I got a PSP back when they were $400 and kicked myself for not getting a M13 when the LE price was $378...I did finally get a LE trade-in M8 when they were $556. I can't quite justify spending the money to have a long slide compensated version built

The P7 weighs about 2lbs when loaded and part of the problem, if you wanted to carry it, was the you had to be careful about holster selection as it was butt-heavy. While it had a 4" barrel in a very small package, it was heavily weight biased to the rear as the barrel extended all the way to the vertical magazine

The P7 was designed as a duty holster gun for German LE after the Munich Olympics, the modifications to the M8 were in answer to an American LE contract. The M13 was submitted to the trials to replace the 1911

tarosean
October 24, 2013, 06:16 AM
Shoot a P7 for a while, and you may become a believer.

Just be cognizant of the sizzling bacon smell and sound.
Yep, thats your fingers...:evil:

PabloJ
October 24, 2013, 06:37 AM
Heavy pistol with low capacity magazine that was very expensive to produce and buy. The
one with high cap magazine can only be used with those having "Green Giant" hands.
Having had bank security PSP I must say I was very surprised that with that floating chamber feature I had zero malfunctions with it.
Another pain in the ass feature was fact that it required very expensive holster (my Bianchi leather one was close to $100) so the gun would not splay away from the belt (long heavy grip when loaded in relation to short barrel).
Sadly it had only one thing going thing for it uniqueness floating chamber and front squeeze lever which provided 100% gun safety when it was not depressed. Not enough to keep it going.
Would I ever buy another one. No.

Jim Watson
October 24, 2013, 06:49 AM
P7 does not have a "floating" chamber, it has a fluted chamber like the rest of the H&K lineup at the time. Hardly unique.

I never got mine hot enough to bother, but then I only had three magazines.

The manual of arms is something I would have to have shot exclusively. Flip flopping to my Colts just messed me up, and I was not willing to shelve them. So I sold the P7.

PabloJ
October 24, 2013, 07:05 AM
P7 does not have a "floating" chamber, it has a fluted chamber like the rest of the H&K lineup at the time. Hardly unique.

I never got mine hot enough to bother, but then I only had three magazines.

The manual of arms is something I would have to have shot exclusively. Flip flopping to my Colts just messed me up, and I was not willing to shelve them. So I sold the P7.
Oh it's unique. I took one apart and while not as complex as Chiappa Rhino it's like mechanical Timex in there. the only thing in common with other besides magazine arrangement was attachment of barrel to frame with was similar to PPK.

bannockburn
October 24, 2013, 07:54 AM
My experiences with the P7 were very similar to those that Jim Watson posted. Never could get accustomed to the squeeze cocker system and thought that its compact size was somewhat negated by its heavy weight.

SharpsDressedMan
October 24, 2013, 07:57 AM
Cost of manufacture exceeded demand.

usp9
October 24, 2013, 08:02 AM
Why was the HK P7 discontinued?

I think it was discontinued because;
* HK made the decision to go with polymer only.
* Aging tooling needed investment dollars. The various models had a 35 year run.
* Aging employees retiring in numbers. HK spends a lot of money training their people.
* Slow sales
* Other projects had higher priority.

I never got mine hot enough to bother, but then I only had three magazines.

With nine magazines a P7 can get really hot... trust me!


Love that chamber.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Heckler%20Koch/P7Chamberandbarrel.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/Heckler%20Koch/P7Chamberandbarrel.jpg.html)

PabloJ
October 24, 2013, 08:20 AM
It can't compete with guns like G19 in terms of sales, production costs/profits. I can see no reason I would want to pick one over the G19 pistol.

Fishbed77
October 24, 2013, 08:29 AM
I can see no reason I would want to pick one over the G19 pistol.

If you want a slimmer single-stack 9mm pistol is one reason. Better ergonomics is another.

PabloJ
October 24, 2013, 09:19 AM
If you want a slimmer single-stack 9mm pistol is one reason. Better ergonomics is another.
The slimness and ergonomics are defeated by gun weight.

Pilot
October 24, 2013, 10:51 AM
The slimness and ergonomics are defeated by gun weight.
Defeated how? Defeated according to whom?

Mp7
October 24, 2013, 10:58 AM
HK started catering for the world market.

HOOfan_1
October 24, 2013, 11:28 AM
It can't compete with guns like G19 in terms of sales, production costs/profits. I can see no reason I would want to pick one over the G19 pistol.

USP and P30 still cost 60% more than a Glock.

gym
October 24, 2013, 12:10 PM
The gun got very hot after 2 magazines, also the weight issue and the annoying feel of having to squeeze the cocker were all negatives aside from the initial cost and low capacity "on the affordable one". The gun was accurate and reliable but complicated to work on. It's a nice collectors gun to shoot on occasion.
I thought I would like one until I picked one up, it felt uncomfortable to me, especially the squeeze part, but each to their own.

swiftak
October 24, 2013, 12:17 PM
I saw one for $900.00 in a local gun store this morning.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2013, 12:31 PM
uniqueness floating chamber .
Can you explain this or was it as Jim Watson thought that you meant fluted chamber. If it was, the H&K wasn't unique.

I remember detail stripping my first P7 apart using the Gun Digest Book of Firearms Assembly/Disassembly and it wasn't that complicated...but then I really like the action in Colt Pythons too...the H&K P9S was much more frustrating

mmissile
October 24, 2013, 02:06 PM
Older HK pistols are works of art and engineering. My favorite pistol to shoot, is the P9 series. I never warmed-up to the P7's.......though great pistols.

Fishbed77
October 24, 2013, 05:31 PM
The slimness and ergonomics are defeated by gun weight.

That makes no sense.

Sure, if you want a lighter carry pistol, a polymer frame will typically weigh less. But there are plenty of folks for which this is clearly not an issue (think of how many 1911s and variants are carried). Likewise, a slimmer pistol (like the P7) is easier to carry and conceal for most folks. It's all about having the right carry setup. But of course, this is all purely subjective.

However, what isn't subjective are the definite benefits to heavier weight - namely reduction of felt recoil and muzzle flip.

45_auto
October 24, 2013, 06:02 PM
That makes no sense.

Let me explain it for you:

No one wanted a slim, ergonomic gun that pulled their pants down below their butt when they carried it, when they could have a different brand slim, ergonomic gun that DIDN'T pull their pants down below their butt when they carried it.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2013, 06:51 PM
That may have been what you meant, but it isn't how what you posted would be read by most folks.

What it sounded like you were saying is that a fatter and less ergonomic gun which weighed less would be preferable to a slimmer and more ergonomic one which weighed more

I've carried a P7 PSP as both a duty gun and as an off-duty one. As with a gun like a steel framed 1911 Combat Commander, the weight of the P7 is almost unnoticed if you use a good belt (I like the Wilderness Outfitters nylon one) and a good holster (Allessi CQC/S) to support it

FiremanJim
October 24, 2013, 08:18 PM
Beautiful gun any way you looked at it.
Worked perfectly, awesome design all around as well as the safest design too.
Compact, all steel construction, RELIABLE, ACCURATE.

And civilians just plain and simple didn't buy enough of them to warrant continuing to flood the marketplace with any more stock.

Crying shame, I loved mine. Gonna get another eventually.

VA27
October 24, 2013, 08:48 PM
The weight isn't really a problem once you get used to it. Years ago I carried an M8 in an ankle holster as backup. When someone offered me what I considered an insane amount of money for it I replaced it with the (then) new Glock 19. I still have a nice police trade-in to shoot when I feel the need.

9mmepiphany
October 24, 2013, 08:50 PM
Just because were lacking pictures, here's an unusual one:

Long slide compensated gun with red-dot optic

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d65/Flork916/Grayguns%20Gallery/Open%20Class%20P7M13/IMG_3445.jpg

Billy Shears
October 24, 2013, 09:29 PM
My dad bought one in the 1980s, and when he got divorced, his (now ex)wife claimed it was stolen. There were no signs of a break in, and he's convinced she's still got it. Maybe she does, but it's reported as stolen if she ever gets caught with it...

But as for the gun itself, I was always very impressed with the accuracy, and from an engineering standpoint, I like how it has a relatively long barrel for such a short pistol (look how far back on the slide the ejection port is). But I never thought the grip was all that ergonomic; it's too blocky in profile. And it was a difficult gun to train with because it got so hot during firing. The only way to have a long, all day range session was to have more than one (not easy with such an expensive gun). An inevitable consequence of the gas retarded blow back system was the heat it transferred to the frame during shooting. H&K eventually added a plastic heat shield to the upper inside of the trigger guard, but it only did so much. So while I give it high marks for accuracy, reliability, and low felt recoil (thanks both to the gas retarded blow back and the low bore axis), it was doomed by its cost, its tendency to get uncomfortably hot, and the fact it was heavy for its size, especially compared to the polymer pistols that were the coming thing.

Fishbed77
October 24, 2013, 10:27 PM
Let me explain it for you:

No one wanted a slim, ergonomic gun that pulled their pants down below their butt when they carried it, when they could have a different brand slim, ergonomic gun that DIDN'T pull their pants down below their butt when they carried it.

...and yet thousands of people carry a 1911 every day. :rolleyes:

Anyway, if you are wearing a proper gun belt and holster, your pants won't be going anywhere.



.

PabloJ
October 25, 2013, 12:45 AM
USP and P30 still cost 60% more than a Glock.
After owning two expensive H&K pistols I finally realized the faux myth of Heckler & Koch greatness. Just couple of Mauser Werke employees that started making guns like G3 rifle in the 50s when West Germany was finally allowed to manufacture them. I no longer see reason to pay extra cash for their overpriced stuff. I don't give a .... if their handguns and submachine guns are carried by many (actually most if one takes project 69 weapon into consideration) elite military forces of the world.

gym
January 2, 2014, 02:50 PM
Weight capacity, maintenance and timing. The rage was hi capacity $450,00 Glocks at the time they discontinued it. Most folks were not into spending a thousand dollars on a heavy gun that didn't carry 15 rounds, and was difficult to field strip for cleaning. Only us gun folk are into putting in the effort and time into these things, not the masses.

wally
January 2, 2014, 02:58 PM
Just because were lacking pictures, here's an unusual one:

Long slide compensated gun with red-dot optic

Somewhere a collector is crying ...

RX-79G
January 2, 2014, 03:12 PM
The Glock's marketing introduced two ideas to consumers that have been impossible to compete with:

1. Polymer is a more modern and stronger material than any other (it isn't).
2. Pistols do not need a trigger system that helps prevent accidentally pulling the trigger.

The P7 introduced the safest and fastest method from going from an almost completely inert pistol to a light single action trigger, and used extremely accurate and modern stamping techniques to produce an incredibly accurate and reliable gun that was slim and easy to use despite the mechanical complexity. HK basically solved the DA vs. cocked and locked problem - even Jeff Cooper approved.

And most contemporary shooters believe they don't need any sort of mechanical safety between them and a single action trigger pull. So why pay HK for a brilliant mechanism Glock has convinced everyone they no longer require?

On top of that, many P7 owners didn't know how to best use the pistol, and would constantly cock and decock it, never understanding that they had a functional DA/SA gun. Additionally, most people can't shoot well enough to net the accuracy and followup shots the gun is capable of and other guns are not.


And just to clarify, there is no hand fitting or difficult to machine parts on a P7. Like all HKs and Sigs, everything is mass produced with precision techniques than assembled. No parts require any hand fitting.

HK continues to produce the best engineered products, but they aren't so stupid that they're going to destroy their business by offering excellence when the public wants injection molded nylon and no safety systems.

C0untZer0
January 2, 2014, 03:13 PM
I love the P7M8 and I think it's the best gun ever made, but obviously people will disagree.

Here is my P7M8:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=172688&stc=1&d=1348960387

Nom de Forum
January 2, 2014, 03:16 PM
For a couple of years in the 1980's my employer provided these.

I liked the lack of a thumb safety and the thinness.

They do get very hot after a few magazines.

They are too heavy for their bulk.

I wish someone would make a thin, under 20 ounce, single stack, full size 9 or 40.

Peter M. Eick
January 2, 2014, 03:20 PM
Not enough folks were willing to pay a premium for a high quality heavy low capacity 9mm uber-reliable auto pistol.

The fools!

The rest of us hoarded them up and still routinely carry them. I just put mine away after going for a walk. I still like the safety and reliability of a very accurate easy to shoot 9mm. Besides if I run out of ammo due to low capacity, it would make a heck of a club as it is solid steel.

C0untZer0
January 2, 2014, 03:23 PM
I wish I had bought 5 of them in the 80s instead of 1

I remember standing at the gun counter at Walmart in Leesville, LA and the clerk advised me to get the Beretta 92 instead. He said "It feels better in the hand, it's gonna be the new service pistol of the military and it's $50 cheaper

I should have said "I'll take 5 of the M8s"

C0untZer0
January 2, 2014, 03:28 PM
I have a couple of Glocks, a model 34 and a 17L. I think stock Glock triggers are terrible and I've heard the line "you have to get used to them, practice practice practice"

I did practice practice practice but I couldn't get good follow-through with the stock Glock. The front sight twitched to the right almost every time no matter how slowly I pulled the trigger. It didn't happen with my P7M8, I just got tired of dealing with it, put a trigger kit in the Glock and the problem went away.

Whenever I hear these conversations concerning the DA/SA versus SA trigger / cocked & locked and all that I just think "the P7 solved those problems"

Peter M. Eick
January 2, 2014, 03:40 PM
At one time I had 5 of them but pared it back to 3.

http://eickpm.com/picts/3p7s.jpg

I kept my carry gun, my Euro-release gun and my one P7PSP I actually bought NIB.

9mmepiphany
January 2, 2014, 07:09 PM
Somewhere a collector is crying ...
Then they'll be crying a lot, Bruce Gray has folks lined up for him to convert their P7M13s into Compensated Longslides...he can also add a beavertail to the end of the tang

Pilot
January 2, 2014, 10:30 PM
The P7 in all of its iterations is a wonderful handgun.

HammsBeer
January 2, 2014, 11:23 PM
For a while I was facinated by the innovation of the P7. But sticker shock and the odd grip feel turned me away. A couple years later and the prices have gone stupid high. I now have a collection of P6's with IMO a better grip and affordability. Still wouldn't mind a P7 just for the unique design though.

Onmilo
January 3, 2014, 12:31 AM
Guns such as the Glock pretty well killed the demand for the P7 type pistol.
Simpler design, fewer parts, larger capacity and half the price.
http://www.fototime.com/4D60E0E78BFB279/standard.jpg
Not to mention for all practical purposes the G19 is the same size and lighter weight when fully loaded than the P7
http://www.fototime.com/0165B24EDB7FF3C/standard.jpg
Yes, that is the same G19 underneath the P7,,,

usp9
January 3, 2014, 07:12 AM
Guns such as the Glock pretty well killed the demand for the 1911 type pistol.
Simpler design, fewer parts, larger capacity and half the price.

Same theory?

HexHead
January 3, 2014, 08:25 AM
I'd like to see them bring it back, though without the gas system. P30 with that cocking system would be pretty cool.

mattk
January 3, 2014, 09:21 AM
I did not like mine. It was a neat gun but the grip just felt weird.

2wheels
January 3, 2014, 09:29 AM
Same theory?
Except there are more 1911 models on the market than there were when the Glock was introduced, and the 1911 shows no signs of losing popularity.

JohnnyBravo
January 3, 2014, 09:38 AM
I still carry a P7 every day.

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