Carrying at work where it isn't allowed


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jpruitt
October 25, 2013, 09:23 AM
Most employers don't seem to want their employees carrying guns on the job. If an employee felt it was in their best interest to carry in spite of company policy (and they were otherwise legally allowed to carry), say their place of business was in a dangerous neighborhood, what kind of firearm should said employee carry, and in what manner should they carry it. Assume casual or business casual dress code.

My first thought would be a small, thin .380, maybe a Keltec or Ruger LCP, in a belly band holster worn below the waist under the pants.

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wally
October 25, 2013, 09:44 AM
I'm retired now and can admit to having done so my entire career -- better to be fired and/or tried by twelve instead of carried by six. YMMV.

Don't ask, don't tell. Don't discuss doing so on a public forum.

Godsgunman
October 25, 2013, 09:47 AM
Well first off are you willing to loss your job IF anyone finds out? You can't really argue or complain when you are knowingly going against company policy.

sugerwater
October 25, 2013, 09:54 AM
My last job, night shift leadman, was in a industrial area away from everything. I kept a G19 in my lunch box all the time. I'm the only one who knew I had It with me. Shop is posted but owner thought it was a state law to post. We was gun friendly but didn't know I carried in his shop. I have a ccw. Kind of like a store or business that posts, I usually will not turn around and go back to my car to disarm. Looks too obvious to someone watching or waiting to steal from your vehicle. I'm retired now so I'm carrying all the time. Best advice is to carry a small lunch type cooler, back pack, or other carry type satchel. Keep it to yourself, an extension of your ccw modified for work.

The_Armed_Therapist
October 25, 2013, 09:55 AM
Lots of factors to consider. Belly band isn't a terrible idea. Though, I still prefer IWB. They make tuckable hosters to accommodate tucked in shirts, and they work pretty well. You can also wear a jacket--suit or otherwise with a normal IWB, assuming you'll not be reaching on a ladder or crawling on the ground fixing things. I would also choose pocket carry before belly band, but that's me.

I agree with don't ask, don't tell. If it's not illegal, then it's probably worth it. There's no reason anyone would ever have to find out with the plethora of great carry methods out there.

scaatylobo
October 25, 2013, 09:58 AM
If you are dedicated to the belief "better to be tried by twelve" .

As I was,then either a ankle holster with a firearm that would make a difference in an active shooter sit rep.

Or a gun in your hard case that is SECURED at all times,briefcase etc.

I would be inclined to go ankle [ as I did ] with a Glock 27/26 or a firearm that I would REALLY want in a SHTF scenario.

Taking out a cute .25 auto or a North Amer.22 is NOT anything that I would consider.

I try to visualize the WORST case scenario,then my response and what I want to have as far as a concealable tool.

It does take a bit of thought AND clothing that addresses the matter [ pants that are just a 'bit' longer ] to cover at all times.

But remember that due to an accident or illness,you can be caught in other than a scenario you envisioned being caught.

For example,a co-worker needs CPR and you bend to do it = gun seen.

Or your go with belly band and it falls out during that procedure.

Perfect practice makes perfect outcome !.

Captains1911
October 25, 2013, 10:00 AM
I would carry whatever i carry off work premises.

PabloJ
October 25, 2013, 10:14 AM
Well first off are you willing to loss your job IF anyone finds out? You can't really argue or complain when you are knowingly going against company policy.
Good point. We work to live Americans live to work being defined by what they do.

David E
October 25, 2013, 10:51 AM
"A gun is a gun is a gun..." Or "any gun will do if YOU will do..."

NOT!

A Keltec .380 isn't capable enough, a North American Arms mini-revolver isn't either.

You need a gun you can hit with, that hits the target hard enough to matter. For me, that's a 9mm/.38, but for a workplace environment, I could understand a capable .380 like the Sig 238

I'd look at the belly band, 5.11 holster shirt , micro-shoulder rig or pocket carry. Ankle, IWB, even a tuckable, is risky in a shirt and tie environment.

gunsablazin
October 25, 2013, 11:04 AM
Not so David E. My Kel Tec P3AT is not my first choice, but in close it will do just fine, and is much better than nothing. I usually carry it as a BUG, but in the "non-permissive" environment it does make sense.

Steve CT
October 25, 2013, 11:42 AM
My employer has the same policy. I am not admitting that I violate this policy by this reply, if I did carry at work it would be an LCP with a LaserLyte in a Nemesis pocket holster or a DeSantis ankle holster.

I have owned the P3AT in the past, it is also a fine choice, I gave mine to my son and replaced it with the Ruger.

farm23
October 25, 2013, 11:55 AM
I own a business and allow CC but if there is a rule against then don't complain when it is enforced. To carry is always a decision that has consequences for your self, other employees and the business owner. If I were to decide to break the rules I probably go with an ankle if clothes and shoes/boots worked or a pocket. What ever you carry practice till you are safe and accurate. I have a friend who thought carrying and a little practice was ok till he had to use his gun, fortunately he survived.

45_auto
October 25, 2013, 11:56 AM
A Keltec .380 isn't capable enough... a capable .380 like the Sig 238

You really believe that a bad guy will notice the difference between being shot by a .380 from a Keltec versus a .380 from a Sig?

Does the name "Sig" on the slide somehow increase cartridge performance?

marksg
October 25, 2013, 12:04 PM
Well first off are you willing to loss your job IF anyone finds out?

Might also add you can be charged for carrying in a posted area in some states and lose you carry permit.

rbernie
October 25, 2013, 12:07 PM
Yup - I know folk that use off-body carry in non-RKBA friendly and non-secure work places. The most common approach is a thin single-stack in a Daytimer looking carrier, or a phone case looking belt pack with a small 380 in more casual settings. I know of a few females that are dang glad to be able to walk around their work environment with a hand clutch/purse. This is for environments where the actual work place is considered unsafe.

If you're just walking to/from work in a bad area, you don't have to conceal the gun DURING work - just during the walk. Think on that one, and how much 'carry' you really need to perform.

If you elect to violate company policy (and perhaps state law), be prepared to face the consequences with your chin up.

David E
October 25, 2013, 12:30 PM
Not so David E. My Kel Tec P3AT is not my first choice, but in close it will do just fine, and is much better than nothing. I usually carry it as a BUG, but in the "non-permissive" environment it does make sense.
"In close," ok. But what if it's a 10 yard head shot only?

One needs to evaluate the reason(s) they want to carry a gun in a restrictive environment. Possible workplace violence? Do you really want to wait to defend yourself from the person until he's within 5-10 feet? Or would you want a gun that would allow accurate shots from further away? Me, I prefer the latter.

.

David E
October 25, 2013, 01:03 PM
You really believe that a bad guy will notice the difference between being shot by a .380 from a Keltec versus a .380 from a Sig?

Does the name "Sig" on the slide somehow increase cartridge performance?
No, but the capable sights on the Sig along with its better trigger make it much easier and faster to hit with.

Have you shot these guns side by side? There's no comparison.

.

btg3
October 25, 2013, 01:50 PM
At 3 times the price... what comparison might be imagined?

Godsgunman
October 25, 2013, 01:56 PM
Really? A 10 yard head shot only? We're not dealing with zombies, let's be a little reasonable with this. In a work place setting the first response would to get out or to a safe place and find cover. The concealed weapon would be used if cornered or if needed to escape the premesis. Be pretty hard justifying a 10 yard head shot only because that would mean there is some kind of barrier between you and the assailant, correct?

gunsablazin
October 25, 2013, 02:00 PM
I can envision scenarios where no handgun of any sort would get the job done, but if I were going to carry a pistol of any sort to work, and it was against company policy, there would have to be a real need to do so. I would be more likely to leave it in the car, and keep my mouth shut than carry it inside, that would keep it with you on the commute etc. I am thankful to work in a place where I can carry my P3AT, and my 1911 ......

psyopspec
October 25, 2013, 02:04 PM
I appear to be in the minority, but when private property rights have come up, I posted that if I were invited to an event in a private home where I knew the owner wouldn't welcome firearms, I'd either not attend or go unarmed. I'll go the same way with my employer. I work for an amazing small company doing a job I love. I know the leadership on a personal level, to include their negative views on CCW. Despite this, when I moved to the area and needed local character references for my CCW they agreed to be on the app.

They respect my right to do as I please in off-hours. I respect their right to run a work place as they choose. If I went against this, I'd expect to lose a position in a well-suited career. I would likely reconsider if I worked in a bad area or in a dead-end menial job. (E.g., years ago I worked overnights at a hotel, alone, with money on hand and a history of robberies). In that case, it was non-career and my concern for safety outweighed my need for the position. What's the same is the statement above: Get caught, lose the job.

Trunk Monkey
October 25, 2013, 02:25 PM
I really have nothing new to add so I’ll just summarize.
If caught expect to lose your job and possibly your permit.
If you choose to carry anyway do not tell anyone that you work with. Under any circumstance. EVER.
If I were going to carry contrary to company policy it would be a small pocket pistol and it would remain in my pocket at all times. I don’t like off body carry

David E
October 25, 2013, 02:45 PM
At 3 times the price... what comparison might be imagined?
In the post right above yours I said:

the capable sights on the Sig along with its better trigger make it much easier and faster to hit with.

Sooo, I'm going to go with the fact that the capable sights on the Sig along with its better trigger make it much easier and faster to hit with......

btg3
October 25, 2013, 02:52 PM
In the post right above yours I said:

the capable sights on the Sig along with its better trigger make it much easier and faster to hit with.

Sooo, I'm going to go with the fact that the capable sights on the Sig along with its better trigger make it much easier and faster to hit with......

At a bullseye match, I'd agree.
For SD at less than 7 yards... LOL.

David E
October 25, 2013, 02:55 PM
Really? A 10 yard head shot only? We're not dealing with zombies, let's be a little reasonable with this. In a work place setting the first response would to get out or to a safe place and find cover. The concealed weapon would be used if cornered or if needed to escape the premesis. Be pretty hard justifying a 10 yard head shot only because that would mean there is some kind of barrier between you and the assailant, correct?
You don't get to pick the circumstances. It could be only the shooter's head is visible above the cubicles or any other number of plausible circumstances.

Sure, you don't have to take the shot and just beat feet outta there. That's your call. But for ME, I want a gun capable of making fast, accurate shots, should I decide to take them.

This "shelter in place" crap is just that. What, I'm supposed to cower under a desk or chairs and dutifully wait for the bad guy to find me? And hope the bad guy shoots everyone else and runs out of ammo before he gets to me? And then, when he's only a few feet away, toe to toe, have at it with a pocket DAO .380?

That might be "a" plan, but it sure isn't mine.

JERRY
October 25, 2013, 02:57 PM
first considerations are: is it against the law and or is it against company policy?

one might get you a jail cell and unemployed, the other might just get you unemployed.

David E
October 25, 2013, 03:00 PM
At a bullseye match, I'd agree.
For SD at less than 7 yards... LOL.
So I'm guessing you have NOT shot them side by side.

The sights are only part of it, which may or may not be critical in a given situation....(but they may be critical, you just can't predict.)

But let's go with your envisioned scenario: I'm face to face with the bad guy at 5-10 feet and all I have is a .380. I want to fire as fast as I can hit the face/neck area. The Sig will let me do that faster than the DAO Keltec.

ArchAngelCD
October 25, 2013, 03:10 PM
When it's absolutely necessary to conceal my carry gun I carry a Kel-Tec P-32. If you're buying new you might want to consider a P-3AT in .380 Auto instead of a .32 Auto but I'm happy with the P-32 because it's a good balance between size and shootability.

Both Kel-Tec pistols are reliable, small and affordable. Many will recommend the Ruger LCP but IMO why buy the clone when you can buy the original. Ruger copied the P-3AT and is charging much more because they are Ruger. (no, I'm not a Ruger hater, I have several Rugers)

GRIZ22
October 25, 2013, 03:30 PM
I guess it would depend on how easy your job is to replace. If you're making 150K a year and that's the lifestyle you and your family live I'd say don't carry. Supporting your family in a style they are accustomed may be more important than what "might" happen. 150K jobs are not easy to find anywhere now. If you have a job you can replace tomorrow go ahead. Keep in mind you will also have to wind up informing your next prospective employer why you were fired from your last job. This can make it difficult to find a new job.

IMO someone will eventually find out you are carrying.

I was never faced with this choice as I worked as a LEO.

Red Wind
October 25, 2013, 03:37 PM
I really have nothing new to add so Iíll just summarize.
If caught expect to lose your job and possibly your permit.
If you choose to carry anyway do not tell anyone that you work with. Under any circumstance. EVER.
If I were going to carry contrary to company policy it would be a small pocket pistol and it would remain in my pocket at all times. I donít like off body carry

Very good advice. Do not tell anyone, even your best friend.

kimbershot
October 25, 2013, 03:47 PM
had a crap pt job as a wheelchair car driver that took me to very interesting areas-(methadone treatment centers etc.-i carried a seecamp 32--i know it's not the greatest, but it would change some attitudes. some of the ambulance drivers wore bullet proof vests (they have drugs on board). no one advertised carrying as it was against policy,

grimjaw
October 25, 2013, 05:31 PM
I've been employed in places where entry into the workplace required passing through a metal detector. There was no alternate route, and the walk to my car was at least a quarter of a mile in a densely populated urban environment. Not that I would ever DO such a thing as violate my employer's workplace rules, but there was no practical, legal way to try to bypass the security station. There was also no locker or storage space close to the building, yet still within a reasonable distance of the front doors. Even if I did have the option of being separated from the firearm, I do not like to do that.

I've worked on military bases as a contractor, and while there wasn't always a metal detector at the front gate, there was a security checkpoint that would periodically and randomly perform vehicle searches for both entry AND exit.

If I had ever chosen to take on the risk of potential loss of employment and possible criminal prosecution (I occasionally worked in D.C.), the only gun I would have been comfortable carrying would have been VERY concealable; something along the lines of a Ruger LCP. I didn't make so much money or have a huge safety net, and loss of employment under the circumstances of a firearms cloud on a federal facility could have ended my career permanently.

crazyjennyblack
October 25, 2013, 05:57 PM
CarolinaChuck - you have a right to your opinion, but for some of us (especially women) there are worse things that can happen than being killed, and I don't mean getting $20 stolen. I wouldn't kill someone over $20 either, so I carry a "backup wallet" with a fake credit card and a few bucks - an easy solution. I totally agree that people should outrun or out-think the criminals, and avoid a lethal confrontation where possible. BUT, I also refuse to entrust my safety to the good graces of a criminal, and I refuse to entrust my safety solely to my ability to run away.

As for working at a no-CCW place, that seems to be almost everywhere these days. I try to avoid no-CCW places like banks, post offices, and fed property wherever I can. I obey the law and avoid jail. When it comes to places that are posted, I try to avoid those too, but if I had to work in one then I value my safety more than I value my job. I would be in favor of legislation that prohibits employers from banning legally carried weapons.

I'm fortunate to work at a spot where I can carry, but if it wasn't allowed I would pick a small .380 or a 9mm, and a very secure holster, and I would put the gun in a "private" spot that nobody is going to be touching or bumping up against. As for the rights of property owners, I feel that they have as much right to say what kind of protection I've got as they do to say what kind of undergarments I wear. It doesn't harm them, and they're not going to see it.

zxcvbob
October 25, 2013, 06:11 PM
A reasonably large fast-open knife.

ugaarguy
October 25, 2013, 07:14 PM
Enough. This has devolved into personal insults and useless rhetoric.

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