Article: Has a cop ever been killed with a FN 5.7 Herstal pistol?


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usmarine0352_2005
October 29, 2013, 12:48 AM
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Just like the Black Talons of days past this gun got a rep as a "cop killer" by the media.


Has a cop even ever been killed with a FN 5.7 Herstal pistol?




I'd think the guns would be unobtainable to the gangbangers as would the ammo. Although they could get one from a burglary.




http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21217529-wider-use-of-body-armor-cuts-deaths-among-us-law-enforcement?lite


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Wider use of body armor cuts deaths among U.S. law enforcement


By Chris Francescani, Reuters

An ATF agent fires rounds from an FN 5.7 Herstal pistol — better known on the streets as a "Cop Killer" — at a body armor vest during a demonstration of the firepower of weapons commonly used by criminals.


NEW YORK — The number of U.S. law enforcement officers killed in action dropped sharply last year, a trend that policing experts said reflected the increased use of body armor by police.

In 2012, 48 law enforcement officers were killed on duty, down from 72 in 2011, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation figures released on Monday. Some 90 percent of those deaths involved firearms, statistics show.
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mljdeckard
October 29, 2013, 12:49 AM
You know, that's a great way to frame the argument.

zxcvbob
October 29, 2013, 01:09 AM
I *think* the answer is "Yes", only because that's what the Fort Hood shooter used in his rampage.

Red Wind
October 29, 2013, 01:55 AM
According to this Wiki article, the pistol has never been used to kill a U.S. police officer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

In the United States, the Five-seven has never been used to kill a police officer, but various news sources such as The Boston Globe and La Jornada reported incidents in which the pistol was used to shoot and kill police officers or civilians in Mexico

mljdeckard
October 29, 2013, 02:07 AM
the Fort Hood shooter had more than one gun, did he hit the cop with the 5-7?

tarosean
October 29, 2013, 02:15 AM
the Fort Hood shooter had more than one gun, did he hit the cop with the 5-7?

He never fired the 357 that was found on him.

GRIZ22
October 29, 2013, 09:30 AM
For the record Black Talons didn't penetrate body armor any more than comparable ammunition.

The 5.7 ammo sold to the public will not penetrate body armor as tested by FN. The AP 5.7 round will zip through body armor but is only sold to LE and the military.

The reputation of the Black Talon and 5.7 as "cop killer" bullets has been created by the anti-gun press with flawed information. Anyone who died as a result of being hit by one of these rounds would most likely have died if hit with a less controversal round.

Speedo66
October 29, 2013, 09:43 AM
Why confound rhetoric with the facts? :uhoh:

T2K
October 29, 2013, 10:25 AM
Also, attributing lower police deaths from one year to the next on to "wider use of body armor" is simplistic at best.

So, the same amount of police were shot, but more survived because of body armor?

lemaymiami
October 29, 2013, 10:40 AM
As a former "police official" you can be sure that most of the public info on "cop killer" this or "cop killer" that is..... just plain BS. The various interests that surround the issue are almost universally motivated by proving a point to bolster their side of the argument -and that goes all the way back to my policing era which began in 1973.

Ballistic body armor of the type commonly worn by officers on the street is meant to stop handgun, shotgun, and lower powered long gun ammo (common 22 LR, for instance). That same body armor is easily defeated by almost any rifle round -particularly any rifle round with ordinary military ammo... The significant stats that you won't see published (or at least that I haven't seen) are the ones where an officer is killed or badly wounded while wearing armor - but was struck at a point the armor didn't cover. I knew one officer that was killed that way (and worked with his wife... they wroked on different departments). I was at her house the early morning before dawn when she was notified of his death.... He was struck by a small caliber round in the side where his armor wasn't... while wrestling with a car thief in a wooded area. That small 25 auto round transited between his ribs and entered his cardiac area and killed him dead. I'm reminded of it every time the shooter comes up for parole (and to date has been denied...).

I specifically remember generating a training memo for my department in the late eighties or early nineties about various "kinetic rounds" that were designed to defeat body armor (KTW comes to mind) and were specifically meant for common handgun calibers. Even then I never heard or read of a single instance where those type of rounds ever resulted in an officer's death on the job...

Annual officer killed reports are generated by the FBI as a part of the crime stats every department provides each year. When officer deaths go up or down each year it's much more related to social conditions and police training/tactics than anything else I've ever seen... But, of course, none of that has anything to do with the various players intending to use the annual stats to prove one point or another..... These various public pronouncements would be laughable if they weren't being used to make public policy....

barnbwt
October 29, 2013, 11:19 PM
Fascinating. I always figured, just from odds, that a cop somewhere was in some way killed by one of these.

Between 5.7 and Black Talon, I hope ammo companies have learned that you don't market your bullets as significantly more effective than the current state of the art. If 5.7 wasn't so pointy looking and marketed so heavily early on as armor piercing, and if Winchester had restrained their own marketing claims somewhat, neither would have likely been targeted like they were :D

TCB

CWL
October 29, 2013, 11:29 PM
I recall that when the FN 5.7 first came out, there was one incident where a SWAT officer accidentally shot & wounded a fellow LEO due to AP rounds and over penetration. That Officer survived.

Nickel Plated
October 30, 2013, 12:08 AM
I'd think the guns would be unobtainable to the gangbangers as would the ammo.

Why would you think that. They can go tot he store and buy a 5-7 or PS90 just like anyone else. Gang affiliation is not a disqualifier on the 4473.

Now the ammo is a bigger issue. Standard commercially available 5.7 ammo is NOT armor piercing. The AP stuff is only sold to LE and Mil, though I'm sure a well-connected gang can get their hands on some if they really need to. Also even the AP stuff coming out of a pistol is only effective at close ranges. You want better AP performance, you need a longer barrel like the P90.

stressed
October 30, 2013, 01:42 AM
No LEO has ever been killed by the 5.7

LEO Kimberly Munley was shot twice by Hasan with the 5.7, but survived thankfully.

Yo Mama
October 31, 2013, 06:03 PM
It doesn't matter, a gun is a gun, a round is a round, the antis will use anything they can to promote elimation of them all

MachIVshooter
October 31, 2013, 07:32 PM
The 5.7 ammo sold to the public will not penetrate body armor as tested by FN.

You can buy SS190. It's out there if you look long and hard, and it's legal to own, as it is not classified as AP by BATFE

As well, many people have found the FN "approved" rounds that are commonly sold will penetrate LII and even IIIa armor from the handgun. I don't have the time right this instant to search it out, but google will show you. The high velocity and small frontal area of the pointy little bullets is something that soft armor cannot cope with.

Dysfunctional Individual
October 31, 2013, 07:55 PM
The Five-seveN is a relatively rare, specialty high-end pistol, whereas the guns used in crimes tend to be inexpensive or popular models using readily available ammo. Chances are low that the 5-7 would become a "cop-killer" gun.

DC3-CVN-72
November 1, 2013, 12:27 AM
This. :banghead:

barnbwt
November 1, 2013, 09:03 PM
"The Five-seveN is a relatively rare, specialty high-end pistol, whereas the guns used in crimes tend to be inexpensive or popular models using readily available ammo. Chances are low that the 5-7 would become a "cop-killer" gun."

And yet tales persist, even here, about how "common" they are south 'o the border, and how pistols, 5.7 brass, and unfired ammo can be found littering ditches and hidey-holes along the smuggling routes :rolleyes:.

It's not a cop-killer here in the States, so it must be 'down there' where the anti's have even less information to make claims from :banghead:. IIRC, it has been used to deadly effect in a couple high profile shootings, but sadly, even those are blips among the even deadlier and more frequent mass shootings by everything else under the sun (including a goodly number H&K products not even available to civilians in the US "where all the guns come from." Funny, that :mad:)

25acp is, has been, and will be, a bigger threat to law enforcement (and everybody) than 5.7, until Raven figures out how to make that round & guns for it smaller and more cheaply than the 'ol Saturday Night standy (not that there's anything wrong with folks owning cheap guns; it's just that crooks tend to be equally cheap in their armament choices ;))

TCB

Sol
November 1, 2013, 09:29 PM
Well hold on a gosh darn minute. If crime is a socio-economic issue driven by poverty, why are "weapons commonly used by criminals" $1000+ weapons?

Onmilo
November 2, 2013, 08:28 AM
The most commonly used crime guns in this area are cheaper bottom feeder handguns such as Hi Points and the Lorcin/Jennings/Davis types.

A few days ago a cop over in Pontiac was killed by a drunk driver who intentionally rammed his car into the officers parked squad car killing the Officer and his Canine,

Again, in this part of Illinois at least, it seems most Cops are killed by people in cars than by guns...

Double Naught Spy
November 2, 2013, 09:37 AM
Well hold on a gosh darn minute. If crime is a socio-economic issue driven by poverty, why are "weapons commonly used by criminals" $1000+ weapons?

Pistols ARE weapons commonly used by criminals. The statement and demo were not entirely in error, though not entirely honest either.

scaatylobo
November 2, 2013, 09:53 AM
KTW = that is OLD school and I was hoping someone would remember the "Original Cop Killa Bullet".

You were spot on,and thank you for the accurate post.

I am retired LEO,and a bit of a shooter and was firearms instructor who actually took the time to learn about the guns that we come across.

I agree that NO particular firearm is the problem,its the shooter [ CRIMINAL ] that we need to address.

lemaymiami
November 2, 2013, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the kind words.... Here's my take on criminals and the weapons they use... to put it mildly you might find anything from a high end top quality weapon (usually stolen - most frequently from someone's car....) to the cheapest junk iron (the kind of gun that you'd hesitate to even put ammo into...). Fortunately for cops and ordinary folks everywhere bad guys with guns rarely have much in the way of actual firearms skill (you'll actually see young shooters trying to mimic what they saw in one movie or other, including "spray and pray" or holding a pistol horizontally like some actor did...). Yes, there are exceptions and you should pray you never run into someone who's a bad actor and actually knows how to use a weapon properly...

In 22 years of street work I only fired one shot. The guy that day was armed with a good quality GI 45 taken in a burglary from a cop's house.... What I didn't know at the time was that he'd thrown away the gun before I shot him during a foot chase (but that's another story entirely...).

Like I've already said though, everyone is smart to be very skeptical of the various public pronouncements about weapons used on the street and the ammunition in use. Most of what you hear is political nonsense designed to bolster one point of view or another....

ChaoSS
November 2, 2013, 10:31 AM
In 2012, 48 law enforcement officers were killed on duty, down from 72 in 2011, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation figures released on Monday. Some 90 percent of those deaths involved firearms, statistics show.


Wonder what "involved firearms" means. Since most years the number or cops killed in car accidents is almost as great as or greater than the number who are killed with firearms.

zxcvbob
November 2, 2013, 11:37 AM
Wonder what "involved firearms" means. Since most years the number or cops killed in car accidents is almost as great as or greater than the number who are killed with firearms.


I'm surprised the number was that low, since the cop had a gun even if he didn't draw it. Maybe they rounded-down to make it look better. There's also a number floating around that one in ten cops were assaulted that year. What does that mean, that they arrested somebody for assaulting them? That's a mighty low bar...

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