New Taiwan Army Tac-gear. Thoughts?


PDA






PaulKersey3
October 29, 2013, 04:55 AM
Just saw this today. Taiwan showed off their new Tac gear and uniforms. An eclectic mix of arms too. I spotted some MP5 Navys, 870 Rems with breachers and what look like open-bolt MACs. The real attention getter seems to be the ballistic masks. Any thoughts as to their gear, practical applications of the ballistic masks, etc?

http://www.dramafever.com/news/taiwans-new-army-uniforms-are-downright-scary/

If you enjoyed reading about "New Taiwan Army Tac-gear. Thoughts?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DoubleMag
October 29, 2013, 07:33 AM
The difference between the 1st group in black, and the group in the last picture in white, is the last group can breath.

I say it's all fake, give up a helmet for a full face shield? Aren't there clear ballistic shields that go in from of existing helmets?

Trying marching in any type of heat with that get-up on & hear/respond to any type of commands. Or, yell ''gas!:what:''

Deus Machina
October 29, 2013, 07:56 AM
I don't see ballistic masks getting used much, but supposedly some close-quarters teams used them the same way one would use a trauma plate.
Getting shot in the face will still break your cheekbone or jaw, knock some teeth out, and maybe give you some kind of whiplash, but you might make it home.
Think I'd rather have a good helmet than a mask you can't breath in given the choice, though.

Torian
October 29, 2013, 08:01 AM
I think it's going to be funny to see their Special Forces guys keel over from lack of oxygen once their heart rate goes up.

Those masks don't look like they are designed to help the user breathe. More likely just to stand there and look scary.

max popenker
October 29, 2013, 09:21 AM
IIRC that's not an army unit, but sort of anti-drug police force.

zdc1775
October 29, 2013, 09:29 AM
IIRC that's not an army unit, but sort of anti-drug police force.
That makes more sense. I could see a SWAT team or something similar using a uniform like that as they don't plan on being in any prolonged battles and it does have a certain intimidation factor.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
October 29, 2013, 09:30 AM
Reminds me of the new " Escape" movie with Stallone and Swarzenegger. That's what the guards look like...

barnbwt
October 29, 2013, 09:31 AM
Those guys have been playing too much Half Life :D

TCB

hso
October 29, 2013, 09:36 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamestung/9005929595/lightbox/

Someone has a series of flickr images of a military "show" in the ROC that gives better images of the military hardware. I don't see much of the same gear in the pics as with the odd assortment in the OP.

T2K
October 29, 2013, 10:21 AM
But the Taiwan military display series does have that same facemask on a mannequin with infantry gear on. It's labeled: "Urban warfare uniform - dynamic entry"

But the original set does look like a police SWAT type of unit.

In the 70's / 80's there was a lot of arms smuggling from The Philippines to Taiwan via fishing boats and such, their gangsters were pretty well armed. I guess some still are.

Deus Machina
October 29, 2013, 10:23 AM
It would make the MACs and shotguns make more sense.

marv
October 29, 2013, 12:32 PM
They do look intimidating which is probably the idea. But I have better all around vision with my one eye than they got. Looks like they would have tunnel vision in that mask.

SilentStalker
October 29, 2013, 01:17 PM
Absolutely stupid. I guess it would work for the intimidation or for masking ones face but beyond that it looks like a black semi Jason Halloween mask. Nothing great about it.

Sam Cade
October 29, 2013, 01:24 PM
Nothing great about it.

...other than keeping the wearer from being shot/stabbed/bashed in the face during a close range engagement of course. :D

Anyway, I'm a bit perplexed as to why they don't wear a helmet cut mask.

Like so:
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/113295536/Ballistic_Face_Mask_Half_.jpg

hso
October 29, 2013, 02:50 PM
More practical is the new generation of integrated helmet with facial armor.
http://soldiersystems.net/tag/mtek-weapon-systems/

Pizzapinochle
October 29, 2013, 02:59 PM
The masks are a bit strange, but I can imagine that if you are the one taking down the door or first one through (most likely to receive fire), might make sense to trade some vision/comfort/breathability at least for the first breach. Definitely not something you want to wear long term.

CWL
October 29, 2013, 03:43 PM
I suspect the mask to be a home-brewed product due to Taiwan's inability to procure weaponry/military tech from other countries because of China's lobbying efforts. Much of Taiwan's military equipment & technology is either Cold War-era or locally designed & manufactured. It was probably easier to locally manufacture masks than have to go through a long process (could take decades) just to purchase a few dozen sets in the global market.

Torian
October 29, 2013, 03:49 PM
More practical is the new generation of integrated helmet with facial armor.
http://soldiersystems.net/tag/mtek-weapon-systems/
It works until you need a proper cheek weld and eye relief to sight in your target and fire your weapon.

They would have to integrate aiming capabilities into the helmet, and that technology is still pretty futuristic right now.

Sam Cade
October 29, 2013, 04:36 PM
It works until you need a proper cheek weld and eye relief to sight in your target and fire your weapon.

They would have to integrate aiming capabilities into the helmet, and that technology is still pretty futuristic right now.

It is more sensible just have a stock that fits the helmet.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/443/mp7stock2.jpg

Torian
October 29, 2013, 04:38 PM
It is more sensible just have a stock that fits the helmet.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/443/mp7stock2.jpg
Nice. I'd like to see him try that in the prone with a crew served weapon :)

mr.trooper
October 29, 2013, 05:21 PM
Those pics are old. They have circulated the net as anyone from DEA to Mexican army, and now Taiwan i guess.

Ballistic face masks were used in the past by some tactical entry teams. They can be IIIA, which is the same protection as a PASGT hemlet.

Sam Cade
October 29, 2013, 05:44 PM
Those pics are old. They have circulated the net as anyone from DEA to Mexican army, and now Taiwan i guess.

These guys are definitely ROC.

barnbwt
October 29, 2013, 07:04 PM
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/443/mp7stock2.jpg
Is that stock comb just dropped out of the way of the shield, or is he actually resting his head on something (hard to tell)? Being able to brace the gun the shoulder is nice, but tying it to your head as well is even more stable. Granted, I'm not sure resting on the helmet itself is much improvement either (since there is some play between it and your noggin). Oh well, that's what reflex sights are for :p

Also, what is he shooting? MP7? Lucky guy :cool: (who's also been playing too much Half Life :D)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/e/e3/HL2Combinesoldier.jpg/170px-HL2Combinesoldier.jpg

Oh, I just remembered what those masks reminded me of; Jabawockeez :D :D

TCB

ugaarguy
October 29, 2013, 07:22 PM
Nice. I'd like to see him try that in the prone with a crew served weapon
I hope the Polizei aren't using crew served weapons.
Also, what is he shooting? MP7? Lucky guy (who's also been playing too much Half Life )
I guess the Polizei patch on his shoulder and the flectarn camo pattern helmet cover didn't make it obvious that he's a German police officer.

Torian
October 29, 2013, 08:09 PM
I hope the Polizei aren't using crew served weapons.

I guess the Polizei patch on his shoulder and the flectarn camo pattern helmet cover didn't make it obvious that he's a German police officer.
Agreed...I hope they aren't either. I was just trying to illustrate why a ballistic mask setup like this could be problematic in other circumstances:)

Protection is great, but not if it interferes with my sight picture or my accuracy when shooting.

ugaarguy
October 29, 2013, 08:17 PM
Agreed...I hope they aren't either. I was just trying to illustrate why a ballistic mask setup like this could be problematic in other circumstances

Protection is great, but not if it interferes with my sight picture or my accuracy when shooting.
Indeed. I think we often lose sight of the fact that specialized gear is typically used for specific tasks. Barnbwt's comment about reflex sights not needing a cheek weld is also spot on. That attribute is nice across many applications though.

Sam Cade
October 29, 2013, 10:20 PM
Is that stock comb just dropped out of the way of the shield, or is he actually resting his head on something (hard to tell)?

The stock is a U shape to clear the face shield so only 3 points of contact.

http://www.issprotectiontrade.com/media/image/thumbnail/mp7-1_720x600.jpg




The Crye solution to this issue is a non-skid pad on the mandible of the mask/muttonchop

http://www.cryeprecision.com/images/items/Fullsize/ACCCF10000R.jpg

http://www.cryeprecision.com/P-ACCCF10000R/Stockpad%E2%84%A2-For-Airframe%E2%84%A2-Chops

CWL
October 29, 2013, 10:56 PM
IIRC that's not an army unit, but sort of anti-drug police force.
Nah, they're Army SF. Below is a close-up of their sleeve patch ASSC = Army Special Services Company. Also, their Squad Leader/unit commander (with the radio) is wearing Airborne wings on left shoulder tab. Also look at their "rigs", they're trained for air assault.

These men may be used in drug & piracy interdiction, but their main defined roles are for securing & re-securing the many ports, airports and strategic locations within Taiwan from Chinese assault.

http://images9.cafepress.com/image/30536979_150x150.png

jaysouth
October 30, 2013, 06:41 PM
I see the ROC flag on the right shoulder. I am curious, why would army folks be using dated weapons that were not designed for the rigors of military service? I refer to the MACs. Are the shotguns semi-autos?

How would you wear a helmet or gas mask with one of these? If involved in SWAT type action, the helmet could be moot, but a gas mask, never. What about eye protection that is universal and almost manditory these days?

Sam Cade
October 30, 2013, 07:28 PM
I am curious, why would army folks be using dated weapons that were not designed for the rigors of military service? I refer to the MACs.

Those aint exactly MACs per se. Those are M77s. Introduced in the mid 80s.

max popenker
October 31, 2013, 05:51 AM
Those are M77s. Introduced in the mid 80s
actually they are called T77:

CWL
October 31, 2013, 02:20 PM
I see the ROC flag on the right shoulder. I am curious, why would army folks be using dated weapons that were not designed for the rigors of military service? I refer to the MACs. Are the shotguns semi-autos?

How would you wear a helmet or gas mask with one of these? If involved in SWAT type action, the helmet could be moot, but a gas mask, never. What about eye protection that is universal and almost manditory these days?
Taiwan is in a very difficult position where they are blocked from buying military equipment by intense lobbying from China. As i have previously posted, getting other countries to sell anything that may have a military purpose is a process that could take decades. This forces them to oftentimes make do with what they already have or to "home brew" local solutions.

PaulKersey3
October 31, 2013, 10:05 PM
OP here. I've been told by someone familiar with their service that their army includes a drug/terrorist interdiction force. The teams spotlighted here include quick response entry teams of these forces. As previous posters have stated their ability to procure weaponry is diminished given the region, and as a result we see the mixed bag of ordnance. On a side note, MACs Remingtons and MP5s are damn good for CQB/entry. The masks on the other hand do more for trick-or-treat intimidation than anything else. That said, on this Halloween night I'd rather paint my face like a skull and intimidate from behind a shield... While breathing and seeing.

HOOfan_1
October 31, 2013, 10:50 PM
When Gotham is in ashes....then you have my permission to die


actually looks more like the guys from that "Army of Two" game

http://www.legitreviews.com/images/reviews/news/Army_of_Two.jpg

Trent
November 1, 2013, 11:12 PM
"New Taiwan tac gear, what do I think..."

hmm..

I think I still see plenty of areas where a high powered rifle is going to do a lot of damage. That's what I think.

I also have to wonder about a hit near (but not in) the eye sockets. It would seem to me the curve of the mask is going to send fragments IN to the mask.

Granted, a bit of jacket or lead in the eye from splatter is better than getting deep sixed in the medula oblongata by a hollowpoint.

Interesting though, how we're seeing modern militaries (and in this case, police forces) getting so "armored up."

Funny how the same people who were freaked out when a bunch of rednecks used to get together, dress up like Rambo, and call themselves militias, are now so blindly accepting of a highly militarized force right in our own towns, designed at the core to control large populations.

Sure makes a guy think about what the future will entail, if things go bad.

barnbwt
November 2, 2013, 09:15 AM
Funny how the same people who were freaked out when a bunch of rednecks used to get together, dress up like Rambo, and call themselves militias, are now so blindly accepting of a highly militarized force right in our own towns, designed at the core to control large populations.

Sure makes a guy think about what the future will entail, if things go bad.

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/10/NM_28Shooting_LEDE.jpg

Anyone wanna whistle the theme to the Andy Griffith show with me? ;). Dallas PD, BTW :eek:

TCB

mr.trooper
November 2, 2013, 05:45 PM
Am I the only one who thinks a goofy hook shaped stock is LESS practical than a simple mask?

Shoot66
November 3, 2013, 07:38 AM
I have seen Taiwanese military spec ops units wear their masks on several occasions. The last time in late 2012 - a navy unit. I never touched one though, so canīt say much about it. Anyhow, I guess they are still in use.

Ohen Cepel
November 3, 2013, 08:04 AM
I could see it for the door kicker on an entry team just encase he caught a shotgun blast to the face. However, for long term wear I think I would prefer to be able to breath as others have said.

Torian
November 3, 2013, 08:34 AM
I could see it for the door kicker on an entry team just encase he caught a shotgun blast to the face. However, for long term wear I think I would prefer to be able to breath as others have said.
Agreed. In narrow and short-lived cirumstances, the mask might work. As shown here, you'd need a dedicated weapon system specificially designed to work with the mask. Thinking more along the lines of SWAT, FBI, HRT type stuff. For our work, wearing kit for 8-12 hours on a patrol in high temps, it would interfere with movement, breathing, sight picture, and just be generally too cumbersome. I personally tend to value having some mobility over protection.

I think the bottom line here is if someone wants to shoot you in the face, you better duck and find some cover right quick :)

barnbwt
November 3, 2013, 09:08 AM
Maybe they should put some slits over the mouth :D

TCB

LebbenB
November 3, 2013, 09:59 AM
Sure makes a guy think about what the future will entail, if things go bad.

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/files/2013/10/NM_28Shooting_LEDE.jpg

Anyone wanna whistle the theme to the Andy Griffith show with me? ;). Dallas PD, BTW :eek:

TCB
Three guesses as to who the breacher is in that photo, LOL.

German Politzei and Crew Served Weapons.
I'd wager they have them. Back in the mid-Eighties I was stationed in West Berlin. The Berlin Politzei had crew-serves, AT rockets, and wheeled APCs. But back in those days, the W. Berlin PD was looked at as a fourth brigade by the allied Komandantura along with the US, British and French brigades stationed there at the time.

tipoc
November 3, 2013, 12:46 PM
It's labeled: "Urban warfare uniform - dynamic entry"

That's the idea with these get ups, "Urban warfare". The para-militarization of police forces has been an international development for some time. In the U.S. it accelerated after 9-11 and continues.

These get ups are not designed for army to army combat but for putting down rebellions, riots, demonstrations, strikes etc.

I recall that during the Clinton admin. he resurrected the North American Command in the military something which had not been in existence since the Civil War. He instructed the military to begin urban combat exercises in about half a dozen U.S. cities. Not about fighting off a foreign army or invading another country. The militarization of the police has continued under the Bush and Obama admins.

tipoc

barnbwt
November 3, 2013, 08:07 PM
"Three guesses as to who the breacher is in that photo, LOL."
OMG, I just noticed that one guy is about a foot taller :D :D. I don't think it's a photo-trick, either; his feet are further away than the others'! He must be the guy who makes it back :uhoh:

TCB

Silvanus
November 5, 2013, 11:06 AM
mr.trooper
Am I the only one who thinks a goofy hook shaped stock is LESS practical than a simple mask?


I've used both the MP5 and the MP7 with that kind of stock and they work really well. With helmet or without. And those Euro style ballistic helmets are relatively comfortable to wear and offer good protection against handguns. They've saved a lot of lives over the last few decades... I wouldn't knock something until you've tried it.

Sam1911
November 5, 2013, 11:27 AM
How do you get a solid cheek or chin weld, or do you just sort of hover behind the gun?

Potatohead
November 5, 2013, 01:25 PM
I like the "tactical" beer holder in HSO's link!

Silvanus
November 6, 2013, 05:01 AM
How do you get a solid cheek or chin weld, or do you just sort of hover behind the gun?


You don't really... But I found my shooting results are not majorly affected by that. For short distance dynamic shooting like in room clearing, bus/train/aircraft assaults, ect. it works very good. It's a compromise I gladly make for the added protection you get. You don't use this kind of setup for a carbine shooting at increased distances.

Torian
November 7, 2013, 07:15 AM
You don't really... But I found my shooting results are not majorly affected by that. For short distance dynamic shooting like in room clearing, bus/train/aircraft assaults, ect. it works very good. It's a compromise I gladly make for the added protection you get. You don't use this kind of setup for a carbine shooting at increased distances.
In an urban environment, in a LEO role, for up close and personal work, it looks like it would have some added-value to the mission.

For any of the training or combat situations I've been in, it would be cumbersome, and interfere with the requirements of my position. Even my ballistic plate vest can be penetrated along certain seams or locations. I need mobility and the flexibility to adapt to a variety of conditions and threats in a combat environment. This mask offers an advantage within a decidedly narrow set of circumstances that we do not operate within.

Silvanus
November 7, 2013, 09:25 AM
You are definitely right about that, it's only for certain, short-time missions. For all other stuff we wear Ops Core Fast helmets. Both options are way better than that stupid face mask for sure though :)

If you enjoyed reading about "New Taiwan Army Tac-gear. Thoughts?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!