Help with bayonets...


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unkjeb
October 29, 2013, 07:51 PM
Got these bayonets long time ago and wonder if you could let me know what they are worth. 10 in M1 bayonets are marked UFH, SA and the 16 in in canvas scabbard is marked 1908, the last photo is one of several that are wrapped in paper and covered in cosmoline that I unwrapped to see if the handle was wood or bakelite...it's plastic. Hope ya can help.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/Average_Joes/Sale/null_zpse7157dd5.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/Average_Joes/Sale/null_zps52cd0cf0.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/Average_Joes/Sale/null_zps2ee89ec9.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/Average_Joes/Sale/null_zps7b9afa3e.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn82/Average_Joes/Sale/null_zpsd3912e6c.jpg

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Nighteyes
October 29, 2013, 09:05 PM
Oops -- double post.

Nighteyes
October 29, 2013, 09:10 PM
Interesting group you have there. What we need to see is the point of the UFH (Union Fork & Hoe) bayonet, and the point of one of the cosmoline-wrapped ones. We need to see it to determine whether it is a "cut-down" -- a 16-inch blade cut back to 10 inches. I'm thinking the UFH bayonet may NOT be a cut-down. The top SA (Springfield Armory) is definitely a cut-down. I know because of the date just below the SA mark. Dated 10-inch blades are all cut-downs. And, of course, there's no way to tell about the cosmoline-wrapped ones without seeing them.

Background: In WWII - pretty early in fact - the War Department went from 16-inch blades to 10-inch blades. They had a whole lot of 16-inchers lying around, so they awarded contracts to cut them down to 10 inches. These "cut-downs" are easily identified because the fullers (some incorrectly call them blood grooves) run all the way out to the tip. Cut-downs are generally not as valuable as those that still have 16-inch blades, nor as valuable as those that were manufactured with 10-inch blades.

unkjeb
October 29, 2013, 10:56 PM
Nighteyes...
I mentioned at the top of my post that the UFH an the SA are 10 in. The canvas scabbard one is a 16 in as also mentioned.
All the others are cut down from as you stated,

Semper Fi UNKJE

Nighteyes
October 29, 2013, 11:51 PM
Nighteyes...
I mentioned at the top of my post that the UFH an the SA are 10 in. The canvas scabbard one is a 16 in as also mentioned.
All the others are cut down from as you stated,

Semper Fi UNKJE
If the SA bayonet in the topmost picture is blade-dated as it appears to be, and has an original, not-cut-down-from-16-inch, blade, then you literally have one of a kind.

AppFan
October 30, 2013, 07:26 AM
Nighteyes, he's not saying the top one is 16", he's saying the top one is 10" and the one further down with the canvas scabbard is 16".

Nighteyes
October 30, 2013, 11:16 AM
Nighteyes, he's not saying the top one is 16", he's saying the top one is 10" and the one further down with the canvas scabbard is 16".
Guess I'm not being clear. I am not saying the top one measures 16 inches NOW. I'm saying that, if the top bayonet's current blade length is 10 inches, it was cut down from an original blade length of 16 inches. Here is how I know this.

The first is the "SA" mark. That stands for its manufacturer, Springfield Armory. Springfield Armory only made 16-inch, Model 1905 bayonets. Any 10-inch bayonet with the "SA" marking was cut down to 10 inches from an original 16 inches.

The second is the date on the blade, which appears to be 1918. That again marks it as a World War I Model 1905 bayonet, which all had 16-inch blades. Even if the date was 1942 or 1943, which would make it a Model 1942 bayonet, all of them also had 16-inch blades. As I said before, many of these 16-inch bayonets were cut down to 10 inches.

Third, and last: only five companies made the 10-inch bayonet known as the M1 Bayonet. They were UFH (Union Fork & Hoe), AFH (American Fork & Hoe), PAL (Pal Cutlery), UC (Utica Cutlery) and OL (Oneida Limited). Of all of those, only the first few made by Oneida had 1943-dated blades -- they used up their dated but as-yet unmilled blade blanks for the Model 1942 bayonet before moving to the undated version. All of the other manufacturers used undated blade blanks. This is why I said the UFH-marked bayonet was probably manufactured with a 10-inch blade rather than being cut down from 16 inches.

There are many things I don't know, but I do know US military edged weapons - both issue and private-purchase - from just before WWII through Vietnam. I've been collecting and dealing in them for several decades now.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Consult the works of any number of experts including Mike Silvey, Gary Boyd, Frank Trzaska, and the late M.H. Cole.

unkjeb
October 30, 2013, 01:53 PM
Gents... I got a lot of information and history from the exchange of knowledge and discussion and I do thank all that responded and find it all useful and needed.
Somehow overlooked was my original sought after info...can I be provided with what is regarded as their respective value? I am willing to let them go with the exception of the 16 in w/canvas scabbard as I think it may have collector interest. Any thoughts? Thanks for the input.
Semper Fi ! UNKJEB

kBob
October 30, 2013, 04:48 PM
nighteyes,

I have a 1942 dated bayonet with US around the ord bomb and only the letters A and H. No F in the middle.

Comments?

-kBob

Nighteyes
October 30, 2013, 10:00 PM
nighteyes,

I have a 1942 dated bayonet with US around the ord bomb and only the letters A and H. No F in the middle.

Comments?

-kBob

kBob,

As you no doubt know, that makes it a Model 1942 bayonet which, as you also no doubt know, means it started life with a 16-inch blade. You did not mention blade length, so I don't know whether its a "cut-down".

American Fork & Hoe (AFH) did not change its markings for 1942 or 1943. Since the "F" is missing, that raises all kinds of interesting speculations. I'd love to see pics of the markings on this bayonet.

Regards as always,

-- Nighteyes

Nighteyes
October 30, 2013, 10:10 PM
Somehow overlooked was my original sought after info...can I be provided with what is regarded as their respective value?

unkjeb,

I was actually trying to help you get precise valuations.

Without a LOT more detail (which, it appears, you are reluctant to provide), there is no way I can provide more than a ballpark estimate. Were I offering to purchase the entire lot from you, without any more detail than you have provided, I might be willing to pay about $40-50 each. I would, of course, be purchasing them for resale, and obviously have considered the possibility that some of these "pigs-in-a-poke" are worthless. Therefore, this is probably not their retail value.

Important note: The above IS NOT, and DOES NOT constitute, an offer to purchase anything.

Good luck with these blades. Unless you're a whole danged lot more forthcoming about the details, you're gonna need it.

-- Nighteyes

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