Removing "a" serial number ...


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Hurryin' Hoosier
October 29, 2013, 09:59 PM
I have one of many CZ82s which CAI imported. On some of them (mine included), they "etched" a second serial number on the front grip strap (just below the trigger guard). The manufacturer's serial number (a different number) is still in place on the frame and the slide. Would it be legal (for cosmetic purposes) to remove the CAI serial number? (It's not etched very deeply, and could easily be buffed off.)

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dogtown tom
October 29, 2013, 11:47 PM
Absolutely not legal.................the serial# applied by CAI is the legal serial# for that firearm. Removing it is a Federal crime.

OptimusPrime
October 30, 2013, 12:00 AM
And even painting over it is a crime in New York, maybe others too.

Steve C
October 30, 2013, 04:03 AM
Is it really THE serial number that identifies the individual firearm or is it a manufacturers part, model or date stamp? If it is the later there are probably lots of rifles with the same number you are referring to in which case it is unlikely to be illegal to remove it and refinish the part.

You need to do a little more investigation to see what the number actually represents and then find out if it is OK to remove.

clutch
October 30, 2013, 05:54 AM
Read this (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-overview.html)

Back in the day I think they called the markings the the claw of death.

Sav .250
October 30, 2013, 08:54 AM
Sure you can.............but, now you have what some would consider an illegal weapon. Plus,who in their right mind would buy (from you) such a weapon. That is if you were to try and sell it.

Frank Ettin
October 30, 2013, 11:48 AM
I have one of many CZ82s which CAI imported. On some of them (mine included), they "etched" a second serial number on the front grip strap (just below the trigger guard). The manufacturer's serial number (a different number) is still in place on the frame and the slide. Would it be legal (for cosmetic purposes) to remove the CAI serial number? (It's not etched very deeply, and could easily be buffed off.) Here's the applicable federal statute, 18 USC 922(k) (emphasis added):(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. Note that it expressly applies to both the importer's and manufacturer's serial number.

BSA1
October 30, 2013, 12:17 PM
This is interesting to me as I have a C&R and have never ran into this.

The CZ82 is deeply stamped with a manufacturer's serial number on the barrel, slide and frame. On all the ones I have received the Importers Name and Address are deeply stamped somewhere on the gun and can not be easily removed.

It appears that someone, maybe the importer, is adding a number to the frame after it's arrival in the States. According to the O.P. unlike the Manufacturers Serial Number and the Importers Name and Address the number is lightly etched and can be easily removed.

My first thought is what number or numbers were used when the gun was transferred to him?

My second thought is there is often a lot of confusion was to what is the actually the Serial Number as manufacturers stamp assembly and other meaningless numbers to the customer on the gun. It is not clear exactly who added the number and could well be a inventory or lot number or a police evidence number. I suppose the best route would to be contact the Importer and ask them what the number is for.

Sam Cade
October 30, 2013, 12:40 PM
Could be a rack number from the original user.


I've got an Israeli BHP with a big ol' "004" electropenciled onto the front strap.

dprice3844444
October 30, 2013, 02:34 PM
take pictures and send them to century arms international asking them about which numbers are valid and if they did enter the second set of numbers.see what they say.send the same pictures/questions to batfe firearms branch.keep all paperwork.second numbers could have been added by a previous owner.

mgkdrgn
October 30, 2013, 04:58 PM
Absolutely not legal.................the serial# applied by CAI is the legal serial# for that firearm. Removing it is a Federal crime.
^^ What he said.

jaysouth
October 30, 2013, 07:27 PM
Just curious, why would the importer add another number to the gun? As I understand it, that would not be needed unless there was no manufacturers serial number.

My take from conversations with BATFE technical services in WVA is that it is illegal to remove any importer's markings from the firearm whether a number, text or logo.

Cast in point was a Norinco logo and 'made in china' from a 1911A1. I wanted to remove both for cosmetic purposes. They were sympathetic but said absolutely not.

Hurryin' Hoosier
October 30, 2013, 07:56 PM
As it turns out, I got my foot off the bag. I could have sworn that both of my 82s had the factory serial number stamped on the slide and the frame. I was wrong. They both have it stamped on the slide and the barrel. If the ATF requires a serial number on the frame, that might explain why CAI etched a number where they did.

Jim K
October 30, 2013, 08:56 PM
Yes, the requirement is for the serial number to be on the frame. But if the number is already on the barrel and slide, I would assume the importer would put the same number on the frame.

The Colt Argentine pistols presented a similar problem. The Colt factory serial number, per the customer's request, was put on the frame under the mainspring housing, and on the slide. The Argentines considered the slide number to be the valid serial number. When the guns were imported, either the importer didn't know the frame serial number was there, or didn't want to bother removing the MSH to see it, and just copied the slide number which, due to mixing of parts in service, didn't match the original frame number.

Jim

goon
October 30, 2013, 09:51 PM
I'd just live with it. Seems the safest bet.

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