Winchester OD Military 00 Buck-substandard?


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Redlg155
October 31, 2013, 09:00 PM
As of late I've been buying Winchester military 00 buck in 5rd boxes at Walmart. I'm thinking it is premium ammo on par with LE issue, and then I read reports about it being old and/or unreliable. To top things off- I get a shell with a bad primer. Even a second strike fails to fire the shell.

To be truthful, it is a rare occasion when I have a shotgun shell misfire. Even with old ammo stored for years.

Is this stuff old contract ammo the military never used? Would you rely on it for self defense?

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Fred Fuller
October 31, 2013, 09:54 PM
I don't know that it's substandard - seems to me that QC for a lot of ammo has slipped with the major uptick in demand recently. Last of the Win "military" buck I bought was in case it was needed for a shotgun class last year - I haven't used it all up but so far it's shot OK. Not the greatest patterns, but it went boom.

I wouldn't call it premium, and I don't believe it's old .mil contract ammo either. Far as I know it's new production, and the 'military' angle is pretty much just a sales gimmick. Performance wise it seems to shoot just like regular Winchester buckshot... to mae anyway. OPMMV...

Steve C
November 1, 2013, 10:07 PM
I wouldn't say that ammo is substandard, just nothing special or remarkable.

The only thing special about "military grade" is the use of non reflecting surfaces, IE black brass and olive drab hull color. Since a shell case with reflective surfaces and color that doesn't blend in with the camouflage can give away the position of someone in combat, the rounds are colored the way they are.

The military spec for 0-0 buck ballistics out the muzzle is basicly the same as what you can buy as civilian, police or other non-military spec ammo. Stores will sell product at what ever price the customer will pay. Why anyone pays more for mil-spec ammo that should sell for less as overrun surplus is beyond me.

AI&P Tactical
November 1, 2013, 10:22 PM
After the gun and ammo run of 2008 QC suffered across the board with guns and ammo. It has to be worse as what started in December of 2012 is over with guns but still going on with ammo. I have even posted I would not buy a new gun for the next year or so because of the pressure on the manufactures to push this stuff out. So I agree with the above guys that commented on the over QC of ammo. On a side note: Calling something Military means nothing to me as Military contracts go to the lowest bidder but I have never shot this stuff so know nothing about it. I use Wolf 00 and have been unable to find any so I got that RIO stuff as it seems to be the cheapest around and it works great. I don't mind a dud round or misfeed in training and in fact, had to think up ways to make this happen in the training of my HRT so my guys would know what to do. Take advantage of these things and practice clearing the weapon and getting loaded fast and back into the fight. Might save your Six one day.

improperlyaged
November 1, 2013, 10:22 PM
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=1&t=318439

Take a look at this and tell me what you think?

Fred Fuller
November 2, 2013, 12:05 AM
Take a look at this and tell me what you think?

Pretty standard evaluation of buckshot loads. I/we have talked about that sort of thing here for years...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165368

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8644938&postcount=12, in the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=695148

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469188

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=624751

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=471751

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=350646

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=203604

etc.

lemaymiami
November 2, 2013, 10:29 AM
Interesting thread, interesting physical comparison by breaking down individual shells to compare components...

None of this mentions what everyone should remember about basic 00 buck rounds using ordinary cheap Winchester 2 3/4 rounds as a baseline... At CQ distances (under 15 meters) the damage an ordinary 00 buck round will do to a human torso has to be seen to be appreciated, period. At close ranges an ordinary 00 buck round is a fight ender, period. Yes, there are situations and distances when better, heavier, rounds with tighter shot patterns are desirable - but at close range I'll take those ordinary Win or equivalent rounds any day.... I relied on them for years.

LeonCarr
November 2, 2013, 03:43 PM
Fred Fuller - Thank you for mentioning the Buck-O-Rama Tests.

Redlg155 - In a Defensive Shotgun class I taught last year one of the students used the Winchester OD Military 00 Buckshot as his ammo for the class. After several failures to eject from his Mossberg 590, it was discovered that the rim diameter of the OD military case was smaller that any of the other ammunition used. So small than even the dual extractors of his Mossberg 590 were failing to eject the fired case and the extractors were slipping off the rim when pumping the forend to the rear.

So IME/IMO there is something to be said about the rumors of unreliability in the Winchester Military OD 00 Buckshot. Even when compared to the Winchester Super-X 00 Buckshot, the rims are smaller.

I personally would not rely on it for self defense.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

willypete
November 2, 2013, 05:53 PM
I've never heard of shotgun shells being drab-colored or non-reflective for military use. All of the shells I was ever issued were red with shiny brass bases.

GarySTL
November 2, 2013, 08:48 PM
I've got some new production military (winchester) shells. Not buck, but #9 shot. OD plastic with blackened brass base. I know it's new production because I got it at the East Alton factory.

RMc
November 8, 2013, 10:29 PM
Regarding the "Buck-O-Rama" test and larger patterns from 3" magnum buckshot:

The widely accepted truism that shotshells completely burn the powder charge in under 18" of bore travel is not completely accurate. With heavy loads and slower shotshell powders the complete burn can take some 22 - 24 inches of bore travel. So pairing 3" magnum buckshot with an 18" cylinder bore barrel is an invitation to larger pattern spread due to high muzzle pressure.

PabloJ
November 9, 2013, 02:17 AM
LGS sells Federal 'Law Enforcement Only' 00 BK with flight control (Vo 1145fps) for $4.99 per pack of five. Few weeks ago Dick's was selling 25 shell boxes of Remington 00 BK at $17.99 . Who needs military surplus? Who needs Walmart?

frankenstein406
November 9, 2013, 03:52 AM
Federal flight control is nice, probably one of the top ones.

Glock Doctor
November 9, 2013, 04:28 AM
When did Wal-Mart start selling high quality self-defense ammo? I think the first clue is, ahhh, ....... 'Wal-Mart'!

AI&P Tactical
November 9, 2013, 12:15 PM
Wal-mart is upgrading a lot of the Sporting Goods Section. You can even find Knoxx Stocks, Surefire lights and other quality items. And no to the first guy who says these are lower priced items build just for walmart, they are the same as you would find anywhere. So yes, plan to see quality carry ammo there also.

Glock Doctor
November 10, 2013, 06:32 AM
I'll agree that some of Wal-Mart's so-called, 'Super Stores' have expanded the product lines they carry in Sporting Goods; but, in a town like Stroudsburg, PA it's still the same old crap ammunition, or since the Sandy Hook massacre in Newtown, CT very little or no crap ammunition at all.

Wal-Mart merchandise IS inferior to many manufacturers' usual product lines and similiar models sold in other stores. Both of my TV's had more features and were better made than very similar TV's - from the same manufacturers - sold at Wal-Mart.

You can see evidence of dissimilarities (downgrading) in the model numbers on many other - but not all - electronic items; and you can see evidence of unmistakable downgrading on some brands of ammunition Wal-Mart sells, too: e.g., the product codes on boxes of Federal, 'Champion' range ammo all carry the prefix, 'WM'; and it's this same ammunition that is notorious for failing to consistently cycle Glock slides.

willypete
November 12, 2013, 12:42 PM
I've got some new production military (winchester) shells. Not buck, but #9 shot. OD plastic with blackened brass base. I know it's new production because I got it at the East Alton factory.

Interesting. I wonder if it was intended for use as part of a survival kit or other specialized role.

PabloJ
November 12, 2013, 12:44 PM
I don't think there is much wrong with surplus BK loads, but one can find better loads for pennies more.

GarySTL
November 12, 2013, 12:51 PM
Interesting. I wonder if it was intended for use as part of a survival kit or other specialized role.

They shoot just fine for clays. They come in a white box with black print labeled in English and French for some reason. Perhaps for foreign military? I'm out right now, but will photograph a box next time.

gunnutery
November 13, 2013, 01:03 AM
Ever since I first saw them for sale in a catalog, I thought the mil-surp or mil -"style" was a little over priced for actual mil-surp. It seemed like a marketting thing as previously mentioned. I may have first seen it in CTD though, which would explain the high price.

Good to know about the smaller diamiter rims, even though I'm not buying any. I had to swear off of Winchester SG ammo right off the bat with my Mossberg 500 because they wouldn't extract.

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