How would you legally ship a fully automatic handgun?


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Arizona_Mike
November 8, 2013, 04:57 PM
No plans to do so, but while researching something else, I stated to wonder about this.

How would one go about lawfully shipping a fully automatic handgun?
UPS and FedEx Won't ship Automatic weapons and the USPS won't ship handguns?

I'm wondering if the law only refers to Title I handguns and not Title II items.

Mike

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CoRoMo
November 8, 2013, 05:15 PM
Ship through a dealer.

There are a few ways that shipping a machine gun might take place and many would require some ATF forms. Might as well have one of the local class 3's handle the forms, shipping and all.

Arizona_Mike
November 8, 2013, 06:54 PM
OK, who does the dealer ship with? That's what I was asking.

Mike

dogtown tom
November 8, 2013, 10:50 PM
Licensed dealers and manufacturers are allowed to use USPS to ship handguns, frames, receivers, etc in addition to rifles and shotguns.

Nonlicensees are only allowed by USPS to ship rifles and shotguns.

USAF_Vet
November 9, 2013, 01:16 PM
There are dozens of bonded, licensed, private courier companies that, while they have rules, are much less restrictive (and sometimes much more expensive) than the traditional big three.

Arizona_Mike
November 9, 2013, 04:16 PM
Thanks for the answers.

Mike

AlexanderA
November 10, 2013, 11:31 PM
If something is fully automatic, it's not a "handgun." The "machine gun" classification trumps everything else, including short-barrelled weapons. That's why you don't need a second tax stamp if your machine gun has a less-than-16" barrel.

The preferred method for shipping machine guns is USPS Registered Priority Mail. UPS will not accept anything fully automatic, and FedEx won't insure it adequately.

Bubbles
November 11, 2013, 07:11 PM
UPS will not accept anything fully automatic...
They are not supposed to but some counter workers don't know that. I do know that if UPS loses a machine gun they won't pay an insurance claim on it.

Walt622
November 30, 2013, 07:28 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but I was wondering about the legalities of shipping NFA weapons. From what I have read, just handing a NFA weapon to someone at the range COULD be considered an illegal transfer. Is there special consideration in the law to cover handing off the item to a person or company to transfer it to a dealer or owner?

Aaron Baker
November 30, 2013, 09:21 PM
From what I have read, just handing a NFA weapon to someone at the range COULD be considered an illegal transfer. Is there special consideration in the law to cover handing off the item to a person or company to transfer it to a dealer or owner?

First off, you've gotten bad information about letting other people shoot your NFA firearms at the range. As long as you remain in their presence, no transfer has occurred. There are large FFLs who rent machine guns at their ranges--no one has ever gotten busted for their practice. It's perfectly acceptable.

As for the second part of your question, I think someone else can probably chime in. I can't answer directly whether the federal statutes specifically speak to how NFA shipping may be done. However, as I understand it, for any interstate transfer of an NFA firearm, there will have to be a sending dealer and receiving dealer involved. So you transfer the firearm to an in-state dealer on a Form 4, he transfers it to another dealer in another state on a Form 3, and when that transfer is approved, he can ship via whatever carriers are allowed for dealers, and then there's a Form 4 in the second state from the dealer to the end user.

The only way that you could transfer an NFA firearm directly to another individual is if they were in your own state. In that case, you should just be handing it to them directly in person, not shipping it, even across the state.

Aaron

medalguy
December 2, 2013, 11:24 PM
I believe, but haven't done it, but a C&R licensee can directly receive an interstate transfer on an appropriate item, no?

Bubbles
December 3, 2013, 12:44 PM
However, as I understand it, for any interstate transfer of an NFA firearm, there will have to be a sending dealer and receiving dealer involved.
False, a non-licensee can ship a Title II firearm to an FFL in any state once the Form 4 is approved. There is no need for it to be transferred to an in-state FFL first.

Aaron Baker
December 3, 2013, 07:56 PM
False, a non-licensee can ship a Title II firearm to an FFL in any state once the Form 4 is approved. There is no need for it to be transferred to an in-state FFL first.

That's the part I wasn't clear on. Thanks, Bubbles. It seems like the "rarer" NFA markets is where this really comes up, i.e. machine guns, etc. I've only ever done Form 1 builds or Form 4s from in-state dealers. I was aware that you could sell straight to another person on a Form 4 in-state, but I didn't know how many steps were required for out-of-state sales.

So if I want to sell to another private individual in another state, I can do a Form 4 to a dealer in his state, and then the dealer in his state does another Form 4 to him? If that's the case, then Arizona Mike's question is an important one. If I'm selling a machine gun to a dealer in a different state, how do I ship it to him?

The suggestion of getting another Class III dealer involved raises this question for me: wouldn't that mean I'd have to do a transfer to him first?

Aaron

Bubbles
December 4, 2013, 08:39 AM
That's the part I wasn't clear on. Thanks, Bubbles. It seems like the "rarer" NFA markets is where this really comes up, i.e. machine guns, etc. I've only ever done Form 1 builds or Form 4s from in-state dealers. I was aware that you could sell straight to another person on a Form 4 in-state, but I didn't know how many steps were required for out-of-state sales.
It's the same as for a Title I firearm - you ship to the out of state dealer, and that dealer handles the transfer to the buyer. The only difference is that an approved F4 is required prior to shipping and transfer. The reason most people try to purchase their Title II firearms from an FFL/SOT or an in-state non-licensee is that they don't want to cover the tax for two transfers.

So if I want to sell to another private individual in another state, I can do a Form 4 to a dealer in his state, and then the dealer in his state does another Form 4 to him?
Yes

If that's the case, then Arizona Mike's question is an important one. If I'm selling a machine gun to a dealer in a different state, how do I ship it to him?
USPS Registered and insured.

The suggestion of getting another Class III dealer involved raises this question for me: wouldn't that mean I'd have to do a transfer to him first?
Yes, which is a waste of time and transfer fees.

pjeski
December 6, 2013, 05:21 PM
With the shipping company not offering adequate insurance to cover mine, I contacted my homeowners insurance agent and had him add an endorsement specifically to cover the MG from the time the seller shipped it until I receive it next spring (I hope). It was specifically covered for an agreed amount. It was not expensive.

brettboat
December 8, 2013, 11:15 PM
"machine parts"

Bubbles
December 9, 2013, 12:14 PM
"machine parts"
Insanely bad idea. Firearms must be declared, and if the shipper loses it you can kiss the insurance claim goodbye so you're out the gun and the money.

dogtown tom
December 9, 2013, 06:07 PM
Bubbles Quote:
"machine parts"

Insanely bad idea. Firearms must be declared, and if the shipper loses it you can kiss the insurance claim goodbye so you're out the gun and the money.
+1
I don't jnow what internet genius coined this idea, but he needs to be slapped.

Ship "machine parts" interstate to a nonlicensee and guess how cool that idea really is.:what:

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