Anything more damaging than a 12 gauge with buckshot?


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sbaker10
November 9, 2013, 11:47 AM
Is there anything short of a explosive or .50 BMG that is more damaging single shot than a 12 gauge with 00 buck shot? It would be like being shot 12 times.. A slug is .70 caliber if I remember right and some even expand.


However a single shot 45/70 is in the same price range and they can be utterly destructive as well, what is your input?

I want a gun for home defense, defense against large critters such as the occasional black bear, and just a toy to occasionally blow up targets with, 45/70 aint cheap and shotguns aren't a couple cents per shell either.

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Tommygunn
November 9, 2013, 11:51 AM
While I tend to shy away from flowery descriptions of the destruction weapons cause, OO 12 gauge makes for a very good defensive round.
Make sure over penetration is not a serious concern.
I've heard 5.56mm. in a AR is actually less penetrative and better where over penetration (of walls and structure) are concerned, and is even better than some handgun rounds that way.
But a 12 gauge is a fine home defense weapon.

sbaker10
November 9, 2013, 11:54 AM
Over penetration is not a huge issue all in all, I live on the 2nd floor, and while there is one other person on my floor where I would "hunker down" with my gun would be shooting off into the side of the house, which has 100 acres of trees past that. I just want something that would stop someone 99% of the time, my 9 could do it so could my mosin nagant, but I don't want to rely on a lucky shot or haul my 5 foot bolt action rifle out :p

Arizona_Mike
November 9, 2013, 12:02 PM
12ga 3" magnum with buckshot? 10ga with buckshot?

Mike

USAF_Vet
November 9, 2013, 12:02 PM
What's more devastating than a 12 gauge with buck shot?


A 10 gauge with buckshot. :)

Tommygunn
November 9, 2013, 12:04 PM
...Yeah....there is that ..... and a dislocated shoulder to go with it.:p

Arizona_Mike
November 9, 2013, 12:09 PM
Almost forgot aboujt the 12ga 3.5" magnum. SAMMI pressure is 14k instead of 11.5k since there were no old guns to worry about.

Mike

50 Shooter
November 9, 2013, 12:21 PM
000 Buck or HP slug, rifled barrel would get you into better slugs for more range. Inside the house its a moot point though.

sbaker10
November 9, 2013, 12:53 PM
So the general consensus is the only thing with more stopping power than a shotgun is a bigger shotgun? Might just be my next gun, even if I never need it, which I hope I don't, it'll be fun to blow up old appliances before I haul them off.

USAF_Vet
November 9, 2013, 01:32 PM
I was being facetious with the 10 gauge.

I think 12 gauge 00 buckshot is more than adequate for HD. Other than that, a 5.56 AR is also fine, as would be a service caliber handgun.

xfyrfiter
November 9, 2013, 01:53 PM
A four bore using slugs, 4 rounds = 1 pound of lead. Only problem is black powder only and takes a lot.

akodo
November 9, 2013, 01:58 PM
Is there anything short of a explosive or .50 BMG that is more damaging single shot than a 12 gauge with 00 buck shot? It would be like being shot 12 times.. A slug is .70 caliber if I remember right and some even expand.


However a single shot 45/70 is in the same price range and they can be utterly destructive as well, what is your input?

I want a gun for home defense, defense against large critters such as the occasional black bear, and just a toy to occasionally blow up targets with, 45/70 aint cheap and shotguns aren't a couple cents per shell either.

Is there something more damaging than a blast of a 12 gauge 00 buckshot?

Yes, many things. For starters, 12 gauge 000 buck shot, it's even bigger.

You also discuss 12 gauge slugs.

While it is true that the 12 gauge using slugs packs more whallop than even the mighty 30-06 there is a whole world beyond it in power. Generally these are cartridges that were developed for dropping dangerous game in Africa. I suggest you do a little googling on the 375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott, 460 Weatherby, 600 Nitro Express, and the like.

Of course while these are more potent than a 12 gauge slug, they aren't nearly as cheap, nor are they as useful in home defense. The 12 gauge 00 buckshot is regarded as a good home defense not because it is so incredibly powerful but because it balances 1) Power 2)Price 3)Penetration 4)Availability. There is something better than a 12 guage in each of those categories, but few items that are high on the list in ALL those categories.

M2 Carbine
November 9, 2013, 02:42 PM
Anything more damaging than a 12 gauge with buckshot?
I would sat the Centurion brand "Buck and Ball' load is about as bad as it gets in a HD shotgun load.
But it's hard to find now.
I bought a bunch when it was inexpensive and available. Very fast and very destructive.
Kicks like heck.

https://www.google.com/search?q=centurion+buck+and+ball+ammo&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=X35-UqFCzdjJAdWYgJgP&sqi=2&ved=0CHsQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=985


As for my HD shotgun I load this gun with 12 ga Federal 00 Buck FliteControl.
With a extra full choke I'm getting a spread of 13.5 inches at 35 yards.
My HD distance is out to 35 plus yards, so I want the shot spread as small as possible.
The normal average shot spread for a 18 inch cylinder bore 12 ga shotgun is one inch for each yard distance to the target.


http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/KelTecKSGwchoke_zpsa0b9fa09.jpg (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Bell-helicopter-407/media/KelTecKSGwchoke_zpsa0b9fa09.jpg.html)

OldMac
November 9, 2013, 03:29 PM
The biggest advantage of the 12ga over the large bore rifles is the forgiving spread. Movement, bad lighting, sleepy eyes, surprise, and adrenaline all can screw up your perfect form and aim that you demonstate at the range on a bright sunny day in a relaxed environment. Close does count with horse shoes, hand grenades, and shotguns.

OldMac
November 9, 2013, 03:36 PM
If i am awake and waiting for grizzly to bust thru the cabin door, then the 45-70 marlin is my preference for repeated (hopefully at least 2) shots on target with good penetration to shut that monster down. Of course i hope i never know if that theory is sound or not.

medalguy
November 9, 2013, 03:57 PM
Here's my choice for HD

Guns&Religion
November 9, 2013, 04:16 PM
I would have to say a submachine gun, like an MP40 would be "slightly" more damaging than a 12 gauge, but not much. I say this after seeing one used at an indoor range once.

If I had a, "Alamo" situation at my house, the 12 guage would be my first choice though.

jmr40
November 9, 2013, 04:21 PM
Is there anything short of a explosive or .50 BMG that is more damaging single shot than a 12 gauge with 00 buck shot?

Most any centerfire rifle round with softpoint ammo and most pistol calibers. While buckshot is effective, it is the most over rated defensive load. It's only real advantage is being able to increase the probability of hits because of multiple projectiles. Each projectile on it's own is a poor performer.

PabloJ
November 9, 2013, 04:37 PM
Is there anything short of a explosive or .50 BMG that is more damaging single shot than a 12 gauge with 00 buck shot? It would be like being shot 12 times.. A slug is .70 caliber if I remember right and some even expand.


However a single shot 45/70 is in the same price range and they can be utterly destructive as well, what is your input?

I want a gun for home defense, defense against large critters such as the occasional black bear, and just a toy to occasionally blow up targets with, 45/70 aint cheap and shotguns aren't a couple cents per shell either.
Yes, combat flechette load in 3" case.

rcmodel
November 9, 2013, 05:11 PM
Flechette's in 12 ga shotguns were proven ineffective in Vietnam.

They are still ineffective in 2013.

They were very effective in Vietnam when fired out of a 105mm or 155mm cannon where you can get a screaming steel cloud of them in one shot.

But that ain't no shotgun.

rc

oneounceload
November 9, 2013, 05:37 PM
...Yeah....there is that ..... and a dislocated shoulder to go with it.

Don't forget the detached retina as well. Happened to someone I know, wasn't pretty

Sheepdog1968
November 9, 2013, 05:45 PM
Both are good choices. What do you want to own and practice and feel most comfortable with? That's the one I would reccomend. There is no right and wrong answer. I'd sleep soundly with either.

eldon519
November 9, 2013, 05:46 PM
The IWBA has stated that #1 buckshot is the most effective against humans based on their analysis. If I remember right, it is the smallest pellet size for which the projectiles will all reliably reach FBI minimum penetration while having the largest combined cross-sectional area.

stressed
November 9, 2013, 05:53 PM
Most any centerfire rifle round with softpoint ammo and most pistol calibers. While buckshot is effective, it is the most over rated defensive load. It's only real advantage is being able to increase the probability of hits because of multiple projectiles. Each projectile on it's own is a poor performer.
May be poor performer to some, but I shot a large doe under 10 feet one handed while just alerted; out of a double barrel coach gun with a 3" Rem Hi-Velocity copper plated 12 pellet 00. All 12 pellets exited out the other side of the chest cavity with a baseball sized pattern (18.5" barrel) destroying all ribs and organs along with it.

I imagine it would be equivalent to a 12 round burst from a .380 machine pistol loaded with LRN.

plumberroy
November 9, 2013, 07:26 PM
I have a big 10 ga single shot it is far less punishing to shoot than the 12 ga pumps shooting 3 1/2 in loads I have shot And who ever decided a 5 lb single shot that will chamber 3 1/2 shells was a good idea ought to be drawn and quartered :what:
Roy

Uniquedot
November 9, 2013, 09:18 PM
Flechette's in 12 ga shotguns were proven ineffective in Vietnam.

They are still ineffective in 2013.

Not true as the advances in steel shot technology has made flechette's a very effective armor piercing round. The federal law enforcement training center put out a video showing the effectiveness of these rounds and their armor piercing ability.


While buckshot is effective, it is the most over rated defensive load. It's only real advantage is being able to increase the probability of hits because of multiple projectiles. Each projectile on it's own is a poor performer.

Tell that to the Germans in WW1 as they proved so effective they threatened to put to death any Americans captured carrying them and tried to have them banned for use in warfare. I have killed game with buckshot and have personally seen it's effectiveness on human beings.

LeonCarr
November 9, 2013, 10:09 PM
I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.

Never underestimate an East Texas Redneck with a shotgun :).

IMO/IME to do more damage up close than a shotgun requires something belt fed, crew served, high explosive, or nuclear.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

stressed
November 9, 2013, 10:15 PM
I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.

Never underestimate an East Texas Redneck with a shotgun :).

IMO/IME to do more damage up close than a shotgun requires something high explosive, belt fed, or crew served.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Nice shooting

Speaking Texas and Shotguns, I remember reading about Texan Confederate troops and calvary towards the end of the war refusing to surrender even after running out of lead, they would load rocks as buckshot in their coach guns and open fire on Federal troops when given chance - with deadly results.

rcmodel
November 9, 2013, 10:19 PM
Not true as the advances in steel shot technology has made flechette's a very effective armor piercing round.Who ask about armor piercing ability??

Of course needle size Flechette's will go through a ballistic vest better then a load of buckshot.

But so will an ice pick.

But you still end up with icepick wounds that won't bleed out rapidly and = quick stops.

rc

LeonCarr
November 9, 2013, 10:23 PM
LTC William B. Travis used a double barreled flintlock shotgun at The Alamo.

Texans like their shotguns.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

rcmodel
November 9, 2013, 10:42 PM
But he only got off two shots.

Then they killed him with sixteen bayonets!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!! :D

rc

119er
November 9, 2013, 11:16 PM
rcmodel:
Flechette's in 12 ga shotguns were proven ineffective in Vietnam.

They are still ineffective in 2013.

They were very effective in Vietnam when fired out of a 105mm or 155mm cannon where you can get a screaming steel cloud of them in one shot.

But that ain't no shotgun.

APERS-T! (Anti-personnel - tracer) I was a 105mm crew member on the M119. We fired some APERS-T at targets while on deployment, but never at actual enemy.

There is a direct fire sight(essentially a rifle scope) on the M119 and a time fuse chart on the trail to set time. The round itself is aluminum rather than steel and filled with flechettes. The fuse pops it at the distance specified by the fuse chart and a black swarm of flechettes spreads all over the area. A smoke canister drops from the base to mark the actual point of detonation and a red tracer flies from the front at detonation to confirm trajectory. The spread is pretty wide, that round has some rpm to it to sling those things out! I certainly wouldn't want to be in front of it.

The effect of this round on personnel as I remember it was to saturate the enemy with many small wounds that can't be tended quickly by medics. If you have 50 holes in your body bleeding at one time, you'll have a hard time stopping all that bleeding before you bleed out. Of course the rate at which that happens depends on where the went through. Imagine being a medic trying to help 5 or 6 people in this condition. A true death of a thousand cuts.

I always liked the direct fire with HE(high explosive/comp. B) shells better! Much more entertaining. We had a crazy 1SG that had us fire some set to muzzle action! IIRC a fuse had to make 10 revolutions to arm. This made sure the shell was clear of the gun before it activated and supposedly prevented a round from going off in the tube. Muzzle action basically detonates the shell at the minimum point. 12 revs. IIRC. Anyway, CLOSE! We blew up the hesco's in front of our position!

OP, sorry for the thread jack:o

So, right on RC. Got a howitzer? GTG. Shotgun? Not so much!

stressed
November 10, 2013, 12:24 AM
Killer junior

LeonCarr
November 10, 2013, 12:48 AM
Its ok rc...we got our revenge at San Jacinto :).

To stay on topic kinda...wasn't there a case of a firebase under siege during The Vietnam War where they had exhausted all of their artillery ammo except two then experimental "Beehive" rounds loaded with flechettes, they shot them at the enemy, and ended the siege?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

allaroundhunter
November 10, 2013, 12:58 AM
The biggest advantage of the 12ga over the large bore rifles is the forgiving spread. Movement, bad lighting, sleepy eyes, surprise, and adrenaline all can screw up your perfect form and aim that you demonstate at the range on a bright sunny day in a relaxed environment. Close does count with horse shoes, hand grenades, and shotguns.

Have you ever patterned a 12 ga with buckshot at HD ranges?... You're lucky if you get a full 7" of spread. "Close" doesn't cut it if you are off the target, regardless of what gun you are using. Using the thought that you can "miss and still hit" as an excuse sets you up for failure.


That being said, a 12 ga is a very good defensive weapon. I keep mine loaded with #4 buckshot.

119er
November 10, 2013, 01:09 AM
Have you ever patterned a 12 ga with buckshot at HD ranges?... You're lucky if you get a full 7" of spread.

Right on. That "spread" effect is the one of the most annoying shotgun myths out there. Second only to racking the action to "scare" your adversary. I put new shooters on paper at about 10 yards and let them see for themselves. Then compare that to the longest shot within their home. Usually gets the point across.

Hornady's TAP patterns really well out of my guns too and has got some punch to it. The Fiocchi Low recoil is nice too.

eldon519
November 10, 2013, 01:12 AM
Agreed allaroundhunter. Really you shouldn't rely on one shot anyhow. You'd probably do best with something like an AR15 and count on multiple accurate hits until the threat is incapacitated.

JohnKSa
November 10, 2013, 01:46 AM
I won a free lunch from a Firearms Instructor in the police academy when I put 30 holes into a 25 yard target faster and more accurately with a Remington 870 loaded with 00 Buckshot than he did with a Colt 635 9mm Submachine Gun on full auto.Makes sense. I remember reading somewhere, years ago, that unless the person with the subgun was well-trained, a person with a shotgun was more effective, in general.

Sheepdog1968
November 10, 2013, 03:27 AM
I have a big 10 ga single shot it is far less punishing to shoot than the 12 ga pumps shooting 3 1/2 in loads I have shot And who ever decided a 5 lb single shot that will chamber 3 1/2 shells was a good idea ought to be drawn and quartered :what:
Roy
It's probably the same person who thought a pistol grip shotgun was a good idea.

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 10, 2013, 08:32 AM
I would have to say a submachine gun, like an MP40 would be "slightly" more damaging than a 12 gauge, but not much. I say this after seeing one used at an indoor range once.

Getting shot by a 12 gauge 3/4 00 buck is like getting shot by 9 .32ACP chambered handguns at once if I'm not mistaken. A 9mm subgun would be more damaging with a burst than a single shot from a regular shotgun.

USAF_Vet
November 10, 2013, 04:50 PM
Sub gun = 30 rounds 9mm.
Shotgun = 6 rounds of 00 buck. At a minimum, the shotgun yields 54 projectiles.

Shotgun in the hands of someone with even mediocre training is lethal.

Are there other weapons just as good, slightly worse or slightly better? Yes. But the 12 gauge with 00 buck is pretty formidable.

plumberroy
November 10, 2013, 05:38 PM
I realistic terms there may be more damaging loads . But they are more costly, possibility of more colaterial damage need more training lets face it dead is dead buckshot at H.D ranges is a fight stopper guns to fire it are reasonalbly affordable and take less training to be effective

stressed
November 10, 2013, 07:15 PM
Upgrade it to 000 buck, and even 0000 buck and your caliber size goes up, with FPS going down.

stressed
November 10, 2013, 07:20 PM
I can see why you think this.

A burst from a subgun with bonded or copper hollowpoints +P+ or hot equivalent through it's longer barrel is probably pretty devastating, especially with a very high rate of fire to nearly dump the mag perforating the person on the other end before you are off target.

Imagine the barrel in the video below being the BG, with some hot hollowpoints loaded instead. I'm not sure if there is anything on this earth that would survive that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O38a_Bx18RU

JohnKSa
November 10, 2013, 09:14 PM
I just remembered reading something else years ago. The author of the piece had noted that the overall effect of a shotgun blast seemed out of proportion with the "sum of the damage".

In other words, when comparing a shotgun blast victim with another shooting victim where the projectile impacts were similar in number and size, it seemed to the author that the shotgun victim seemed to react more strongly to the shotgun blast. His theory was that the multiple simultaneous impacts resulted in more trauma to the victim's system than the same number of similarly damaging impacts which were spread out over time.

To be fair, the comparison was between persons shot with shotgun blasts and persons shot multiple times with conventional weapons, not full-auto weapons. Even assuming that the author's speculation was on target, I have no idea whether or not the impacts from a full-auto burst occur close enough together to create the same effect.

One other thing to take into account is that it's generally easier to get hits with a shotgun than a subgun. I'm not talking about the shot spread, I'm talking about the fact that holding a subgun on target for anything longer than just a short burst tends to be more difficult than scoring a solid hit with a shotgun.

stressed
November 10, 2013, 11:43 PM
John, watch the video above. Pretty much no recoil. That's whats nice about subguns.

Now if a guy wants to combine weapons... a drum fed full auto shortbarrel Siaga 12 spitting 3" 15 pellet plated and buffered 00 as fast as it can cycle would be, well, devastation.

From a 20 round drum that would be 300 .32 caliber balls in a few seconds. There is also 18 pellet 3" by some vendors - 360 .32 balls on target.

Running 1 or 4 buck in 3" would just turn your target into minced meat after 20 rounds in rapid succession.

JohnKSa
November 11, 2013, 12:59 AM
There are probably some subguns that recoil less than the one in the video, there are certainly others that recoil more. That's why I intentionally used the words: "generally" and "tends". ;)

Uniquedot
November 11, 2013, 02:01 AM
Who ask about armor piercing ability??

Of course needle size Flechette's will go through a ballistic vest better then a load of buckshot.

But so will an ice pick.

But you still end up with icepick wounds that won't bleed out rapidly and = quick stops.

The piercing ability applies to it's effectiveness. As far as it piercing better than buckshot there is no comparison as buckshot will not penetrate unless the armor is defective. The last advancements I saw on vests proved that an ice pick wouldn't penetrate it, but then again that armor may have been developed after the studies by the FLTC and flechette's may not penetrate that armor either. In any case an ice pick, a flechette, or a lead ball in the heart equals a dead mammal either way and that's easily understood. I however would not use anything other than buckshot and slugs in my HD guns as I've only ever heard of one criminal entering a home wearing body armor and he was laid to rest with a 30-30 round to the face. Besides even though the fletchette's proved to penetrate body armor it probably couldn't make it to the vitals afterward which is what I'm assuming you were referring.

tactikel
November 11, 2013, 03:32 AM
The Thompson M28 .45 was considered the "most destructive hand held weapon in the world" a while back.:D.
For Bear defense use slugs, bad guys buckshot, plinking a 10/22.

evan price
November 11, 2013, 07:46 AM
You can still get buck & ball loads at Cabelas under their Herter's Defense brand name. Looks just like the Centurion stuff to me. Cheddite hulls in both.

Can't think of a more devastating home-defense-distance weapon than a reasonable shooter with a pump 12-gauge and 00 buckshot.

You can try to tell me that ARs are the thing for HD but I will never agree.

If you have an AR and like it- great. $800 investment in a weapon, plus mags and gear.

12-gauge pump for under $200 at the pawn shop or used rack at the gun store. 6 rounds of 00 buckshot. Not as much skill needed for a newer shooter. No stigma of an evil black gun either.

Buckshot for in the house distances- a 9 pellet hello & goodbye.
1-oz slugs for in the yard- 470 grains of git the heck out of my barn.

ugaarguy
November 11, 2013, 09:23 AM
Mr. Price, that's a pretty closed minded view point to say you'll never agree.

Now that the panic has largely subsided the S&W M&P-15 Sport is once again available for under $650 OTD if one shops around. I realize that's still three times the price of something like a Maverick 88. However, it's hard to make an apples to apples comparison since an AR-15 type rifle since we're obviously comparing a semi-auto rifle to a pump shotgun. However, yes, a base model $200 pump shotgun is the most cost effective HD firearm currently available.

The Sport also ships with a perfectly functional set of iron sights and a 30 round PMAG, as do most AR-15 type rifles. What other "gear" does one need?

Last, I disagree about pump shotguns being easier for a new shooter. Pump guns can be short stroked, and even 20 gauge pump shotguns have significant recoil for a new shooter. A semi-auto carbine in an intermediate chambering is much easier to teach a new shooter to use in my limited experience. I'm not saying a pump shotgun is difficult to learn to use by any means either.


Of course, I can also offer a few counters my own points above:

A Remington 11-87P with a supercell pad was one of the softest shooting shotguns I've ever fired. The Remington 1100 with a similar recoil pad is about the same. At $744 shipped from Bud's the Rem. 1100 TAC2 is a much more apples to apples comparison to a semi-auto carbine.

If pump shotgun a recoil is a concern a drop-in replacement / pre-fitted Limbsaver, Decelerator, or similar premium recoil is a low cost way to bring felt recoil to much more tolerable levels.

If one has physical strength issues or other serious problems dealing with recoil there are always .410 pump shotguns as well. 3 pellets of 000 buck per shell at the same velocity as 12 ga buck is still a very good option for defensive uses.

Officers'Wife
November 11, 2013, 07:06 PM
Based on what I saw coming through the ER about a year and a half ago one thing more damaging would be a PO'd woman with a leather purse full of Mary Kay products.

lemaymiami
November 11, 2013, 07:41 PM
A few thoughts about this topic.... most of it is speculation since few will ever find out what works (or doesn't..) the hard way. In my limited experience an ordinary 00 buck 12 guage round is very effective on a human target - at close range (under 15 meters). There might be better weapons - but not something owned by an ordinary guy (unless you're police or military you're not likely to have a full auto MP5 handy for self defense...).

As far as flechette rounds go... the real deal was always as an artillery round and was used for last ditch close quarter work as the enemy was coming over the wire. A special forces warrant officer I worked with briefly in 1968 described how it worked in an actual incident at a small firebase he was at. He said that as things got bad and were getting worse you'd hear someone yell "beehive" and you did a groundhog as the rounds went overhead -aimed right at the wire. It was just a much more modern version of cannister or grape shot that was the last ditch cannon ammo in years gone by.... I didn't ask how well it worked since I figured that if he was telling the truth, then "beehive" was why he was there at all. When I finally got over there three years later the item we relied on (and hoped would never be used) was phou-gas (sp?). It was your basic home brew instant napalm set along the wire at intervals and meant to be command detonated (just a 55 gallon drum of jellied gasoline with a directional charge behind it....). Like others have said the attempt to use flechettes in shotgun rounds proved ineffective.... If anyone one can tell me I'd like to know if there are any current flechette artillery rounds in service today... or has it just gone out of fashion?

Lastly firearms, deadly as they are, aren't the greatest man-stoppers available to the ordinary man. I always thought that a car, used properly, was a real fight ender if needed. Although I kept that tactic in my arsenal - I never found out on the street. Still there are a few cops killed every year by getting hit by a car....

plumberroy
November 11, 2013, 08:08 PM
Real life buckshot experience .... I can nearly cut a small deer or feral dog's head off with buckshot less than 1 inch strip of skin holding head on shot at 30 foot . Feral dog in the air coming to eat me shot at 5 foot> head mostly disappeared and got blood all over me. second feral dog decided eating me wasn't a good move took one shot to chest at 40 foot... dead right there
Roy

evan price
November 12, 2013, 07:23 AM
@ UGAARGUY:

Well, I have my own mind made up, not to say someone elses' mind won't have a different opinion. You know what they say about opinions.

The AR platform is not my thing. I've owned them, I don't like them.
Yes, with a 12-ga there's jams possible like short shucking the pump or double feeds etc. Same can be said about the AR. Bolt over base jams, FTF, FTE- all guns can break.

Let's compare terminal energy of a 55-gr 223 at 2800 fps versus a 470-gr 12-ga slug at 1550 fps.

Sure a slug runs out of energy at 100 yards and relally is best at 50 yards and under.
And 223 can reach out to 300 yards but is great in the 100-200 range.

I don't forsee a home defense scenario where the need to get out to over 50 yards will be very necessary. If someone is 50 yards away from me they are no longer a physical threat. I don't live in a warehouse.

Home defense is more like trench warfare than open-field battle. Lots of obstacles, turns, tight clearances and distractions.

Again, MY OPINION, and I'm no Awerbuck.

Uniquedot
November 12, 2013, 11:29 AM
Feral dog in the air coming to eat me shot at 5 foot> head mostly disappeared and got blood all over me.

I've witnessed the same thing with a human being and it wasn't pretty at all. A good portion of the mans head was scattered everywhere. Saw another man hit in the chest with 00 buck and it too was a pretty disgusting sight with bullet holes in both lungs, the heart, and the neck with a single trigger pull. My dad relayed a story to me where he witnessed a shootout and the guy with the shotgun won with a single pull of the trigger he took out the brain and the heart of the other involved party. I'll continue to offer the advice that nothing beats a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot for home defense ranges. If one wants to argue for the AR one can go right ahead, but pull that trigger nine times instead of one and see how well it goes over in court.

Fiv3r
November 12, 2013, 01:32 PM
In up-close bad breath ranges, the 12 gauge with 00 buck will probably always be the general go-to for home defense with good reason. Even a "glancing" blow is going to ruin a home invader's day.

For years, an 870 then Ithaca 37 was my self defense weapon of choice. Still is when I stay at my stepdad's cabin.

However, for me, the AR is now what I'll grab in that situation. It has nothing more to do with than in my new home I would possibly have to fire TOWARD my daughter's room. I like the tumbling nature of the .223.

Actually, there are probably scores of different weapons with various uses that make them more or less adequate. My house has pretty narrow halls. I would most likely grab a .40 pistol over either long arm if I had to check something out downstairs.

Stevie-Ray
November 12, 2013, 03:46 PM
The IWBA has stated that #1 buckshot is the most effective against humans based on their analysis. If I remember right, it is the smallest pellet size for which the projectiles will all reliably reach FBI minimum penetration while having the largest combined cross-sectional area. True, dat, but I find #1 buck ungodly hard to find, whereas 00 buck is available everywhere. As such, I keep my HD shotgun loaded with 00 buck from Remchester, normally. I haven't even been able to pattern it with #1 buck as of yet, though it does extremely well with 00. The same articles that tout #1 buck as the best HD load also say 00 buck is ranked no.2, both in 2.75" size.

Wish #1 buck would start showing up regularly around here. Like to try it out.
But I also have an AR and EDC pistol loaded for HD to keep all bases covered.

FuzzyBunny
November 12, 2013, 03:51 PM
In a perfect world I would have a shotty with 00 and a light and a few flashbangs.

This would be when I had the family in the safe room and only badguys roaming the halls.

Officers'Wife
November 12, 2013, 04:40 PM
Let me see...

Gramps Browning semi-automatic shotgun will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger, say all six shotshells in 30 seconds.

There are 8 32 caliber ball in a 12gauge shotshell

8 * 6 = 48
48 * 2 = 96 (bring up to a full minute.)

That gives a cyclic of 96 rounds per minute with an effective magazine of 48 rounds...

Can you fire 48 rounds out of an M-16 in 30 seconds? Or an M-14 or AK-47 for that matter?

In the end it's really kind of a moot point. In a real world situation if the only thing you can get to is a .22 single shot it would still be head and shoulders above your winning smile and killer personality.

allaroundhunter
November 12, 2013, 05:16 PM
Can I fire 48 rounds out I my AR in 30 seconds? I can do it in less than 20....

By the same token, I can empty my 11 shot shotgun in under 5 seconds.... A little better than 6 shots in 30 seconds

Speedo66
November 12, 2013, 08:49 PM
Re: shotgun or AR, keep in mind several states already have AR's on their ban list. So far, none have outlawed a sporting shotgun.

The anti AR trend will probably increase. Long live the shotgun. :rolleyes:

Anybody making a modern ducksfoot pistol? http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/jpg/duckfoot3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/ducksfoot.html&h=342&w=760&sz=27&tbnid=_hxHSpUOBT0oZM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=200&zoom=1&usg=__EPI1ClvE-IwFFPFbgRPHpjYvzIk=&docid=i5Bvc-le3ePRXM&sa=X&ei=UMyCUqrGPKnasASO64LYBw&ved=0CC0Q9QEwAA

d2wing
November 12, 2013, 09:16 PM
Most any centerfire rifle round with softpoint ammo and most pistol calibers. While buckshot is effective, it is the most over rated defensive load. It's only real advantage is being able to increase the probability of hits because of multiple projectiles. Each projectile on it's own is a poor performer.
This post is correct, tests show that buck shot is only effective at very close range. It is a great in home defense because of the high number of hits and energy but it is like being shot multiple times with a .22lr or at best a .32 cal. Pistol. And beyond a few yards penetration drops ,off dramatically. This is a plus for home defense unless you have really large rooms or long hallways and heavy furniture to duck behind. Very deadly inside a 20 foot room.

rbernie
November 13, 2013, 09:04 AM
Buckshot has an effective range of well past 'get off my lawn' (at least most suburban lawns) and getting dangerously close to 'too far away to be considered a SD/HD threat' under anything but a Mad Max type of scenario. It's not just for clearing a room...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=726909

Specifically, you can watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S546W_L0tFo

lemaymiami
November 13, 2013, 09:27 AM
d2.... must disagree with the idea that buckshot is only effective at very close range.... At 15 meters an ordinary 9 pellet 00buck round (2 3/4") will not only penetrate a human torso laterally from side to side -it will also (in a standard riot configuration shotgun) have a small enough spread at 15 meters (about 15" in every shotgun I ever used) to keep all of those pellets in the chest cavity... Unfortunately for me this is one of those "ask me how I know" propositions.... As a practical matter you can pretty much count on that same round dispersing the pattern at one inch per meter from the muzzle in an 18" improved cylinder barrel.... I consider any shooting situation under 15 meters (say less than fifty feet) as prime territory for any riot configured shotgun, period.

Since I was a young cop the day I fired my one and only shot on the street I was in and out of court for about six months as a result until the shooting was ruled to be justified. I had access to all the autopsy work-up, measurements and all, so the above description is pretty accurate -even though the incident involved was almost 35 years ago now. When the dust settled and I finally came to grips with my own reactions to what I'd been involved in - I made a point of learning as much as I could about shotguns and the best tactics to use one and survive. I relied on one for years after that -but never fired another shot on the street...

d2wing
November 13, 2013, 01:10 PM
Lemay. You have first hand knowledge superior to mine. I guess the specifics of what range we are talking about we're not clear in my post. I agreed that in a home buckshot is lethal. Or inside a duck boat. I was thinking of a test that showed at 75 yards in some shots no pellets hit a human size target. Those that did would not have much penetration particularly in case of armor or heavy clothing like leather with padding. I agree that it is good at close range and thanks for your information, again you know more than I do especially about specifics. I just think some are overly impressed with TV shows and imaginary scenarios. You speak from knowledge, not imagination so I welcome useful information in your post.
I also thank you for public service and commend you for pointing out that shooting someone is a very serious matter with lifelong effects.

jmr40
November 13, 2013, 02:43 PM
I posted on page 1, didn't read the whole thread and if this has been mentioned I missed it.

Any shotgun, 12 or 20 ga shooting slugs or buckshot loads are going to generate 25-30 ft lbs of recoil depending on indivdual guns and loads. That is 300 win mag recoil levels. I find it amusing at how many will tell novice shooters they need a shotgun for protection, but emphatically steer veteran shooters away from any magnum loading for hunting because of excessive recoil.

An AR with a more effectve soft point bullet generates around 5 ft lbs of recoil by comparison.

Stevie-Ray
November 13, 2013, 03:02 PM
Any shotgun, 12 or 20 ga shooting slugs or buckshot loads are going to generate 25-30 ft lbs of recoil depending on indivdual guns and loads. That is 300 win mag recoil levels. I find it amusing at how many will tell novice shooters they need a shotgun for protection, but emphatically steer veteran shooters away from any magnum loading for hunting because of excessive recoil.The answer to that is semi-auto. My HD shotgun is a fully vetted Mossberg 930 SPX and is the softest shooting shotgun I've ever fired. There may be better ones out there, but I seriously doubt they'll be any easier on the shoulder.

lemaymiami
November 13, 2013, 06:01 PM
D2.. you're right about the consequences... I retired out in 1995 and have not carried a sidearm one day since then (after carrying 24/7 for just about 22 years when I was up and walking around). Although I'm tempted to pick up another popper - to date I haven't, and don't regret the decision one bit (...so far).

modwerdna
November 13, 2013, 06:20 PM
I often use 12 gauge 3 inch magnum extra full choke with #4 buckshot for coyotes.. wait for it..... 43 pellets@ 1450 fps .25 caliber, and they come in steel variety too! so if you fire 4 shots in 4 seconds that's 172 lethal 25 caliber balls.... what sub-machine gun goes that fast?? and you don't have to aim at 30 yards! just point!

JohnKSa
November 14, 2013, 12:12 AM
I find it amusing at how many will tell novice shooters they need a shotgun for protection, but emphatically steer veteran shooters away from any magnum loading for hunting because of excessive recoil.Apples and oranges. It's a rare person who doesn't sight in his hunting rifle from the bench and an even more rare person who shoots his self-defense shotgun from the bench.

Shooting from the offhand position, the recoil of a decent self-defense shotgun will be much less punishing than shooting a rifle with similar recoil energy from the bench.

Deltaboy
November 14, 2013, 12:21 AM
I shot Bambie and Feral dogs over the decades with 2 3/4 high brass 00 buck . It made a mess of the dogs and most deer never took more than 3 steps. So that and slugs are all I need in the house. The 30/30 is there for longer ranged stuff.

C0untZer0
November 14, 2013, 01:04 AM
I did a quick search for Remington Master Blaster 8ga industrial shotgun and couldn't find it in this thread.

And yes it's a mounted system, but technically it's more damaging than a 12ga.

http://www.remington.com/en/products/ammunition/industrial/masterblaster-system.aspx

I also think it's categorized as a destructive device with no sporting purpose (I could be wrong), but unless you only planned on using it to defend your kiln, you might get yourself in hot water - or hot something or other...

Shawn Dodson
November 14, 2013, 12:22 PM
Of course needle size Flechette's will go through a ballistic vest better then a load of buckshot.

When fired from a shotgun many flechettes will strike soft armor sideways and bounce off. Those that impact point forward don't penetrate very far - the tail fins snag in the armor and stop.

True, dat, but I find #1 buck ungodly hard to find...

https://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=FC-LE1321B

WardenWolf
November 14, 2013, 01:43 PM
Buckshot in general is very effective. It's hard to argue with a fist-sized combined hole. Even a slug isn't going to do that much overall damage in most cases. The only thing a slug can do that pellets generally cannot is turn cover into concealment. And even if the person is wearing body armor, a slug will break bones behind said body armor and may even kill just from that even if it does not penetrate.

Officers'Wife
November 14, 2013, 07:25 PM
Can I fire 48 rounds out I my AR in 30 seconds? I can do it in less than 20....

By the same token, I can empty my 11 shot shotgun in under 5 seconds.... A little better than 6 shots in 30 seconds
You are much better at changing magazines than I am.

If I tried shooting the Browning that fast my last shot would probably be a 60 to 80 angle.

allaroundhunter
November 14, 2013, 08:37 PM
You are much better at changing magazines than I am.

If I tried shooting the Browning that fast my last shot would probably be a 60 to 80 angle.

My mag changes are pretty quick, but I also have a 48 round magazine.

Competitive shooting requires good recoil control and fast follow up shots.

meanmrmustard
November 15, 2013, 11:35 AM
I posted on page 1, didn't read the whole thread and if this has been mentioned I missed it.

Any shotgun, 12 or 20 ga shooting slugs or buckshot loads are going to generate 25-30 ft lbs of recoil depending on indivdual guns and loads. That is 300 win mag recoil levels. I find it amusing at how many will tell novice shooters they need a shotgun for protection, but emphatically steer veteran shooters away from any magnum loading for hunting because of excessive recoil.

An AR with a more effectve soft point bullet generates around 5 ft lbs of recoil by comparison.
Have you fired a semi auto shotgun?

splattergun
November 15, 2013, 11:53 AM
Everyone needs a 12ga 3" shotgun. Shooting 00 buck for home defense, slugs for the occasional black bear (as OP mentioned) and cheap skeet shot for plinking, not to mention actually hunting a variety of critters with the thing. A truly multi-use weapon.

just my tuppence

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