High New Holster concern


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YourAlterEgo
November 9, 2013, 01:03 PM
Received my High Noon Holster this week. Overall I liked the look and fit but this just irks me. It’s an in waistband from their top tier Extreme Duty line of holsters. I’m concerned about the front sight snagging in a high intensity situation and people laughing because the holster is canted on the wrong axis (the last part was a joke).

Would you be okay with this or???

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MikePaiN
November 9, 2013, 01:11 PM
You need to contact High Noon and have that holster fixed or replaced if you're not happy.
I'm sure High Noon will take good care of you.

YourAlterEgo
November 9, 2013, 01:46 PM
I guess what I am asking is, am I being too meticulous. This tilt seems a bit excessive to me. If they can't get the front sight to sit freely somewhere in that huge channel, why not just used a half circle, like a tube cut in half? I did email them and the politely told me to go away. If this is "very normal", why not post that up on their sight?

Hi Redacted,

Yes that’s very normal. The site track is there to just to provide a barrier between the leather and you. The front site will channel away its own path, if it's hitting.

None of the holsters with site track are exactly straight.

Take Care
James

www.HighNoonHolsters.com

From: Redacted
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 8:56 PM
To: Orders@HighNoonHolsters.com
Subject: RE: Your High Noon Holsters Order Number: Redacted

Is this normal for the sight track to be this canted from the sights? I can force it not to touch but then that causes the hip side of the holster to have a bulge due to the sight track. I've flexed the seams quite a bit but doesn't keep the sight from sliding along the track.

> Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 23:05:01 -0400
> From: Orders@HighNoonHolsters.com
> To: Redacted
> Subject: Your High Noon Holsters Order
>
> Hello High Noon Customer,
>
> Thanks for your order! We appreciate your business.
> You must visit this link below for FULL instructions about your order.
>
> Please Note A Large Part of Our Line Is Custom Made And Molded To The Gun
> You Picked And Is Non Returnable. If You Do Not Know If Your Item Is Non Returnable,
> Right Now Is A Good Time To Find Out.
>
> www.highnoonholsters.com/Turnaround_Times/Order_Thank_You_Page/order_thank_you_page.html

> Order Number: redacted
> Placed : 10/13/2013 23:05:01 EDT
>
> Ship To: Bill To:
> redacted
> US US
>
> Code Name Quantity Price/Ea. Total
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PSC Public Secret W/Clip 1 $109.95 $109.95
> aMaterial: Cowhide
> bColor: Natural
> dGun Model: H&K USP Compact 9,40,45 3.58"
> cRight Hand or Left Hand :: .Right Hand
> eRush Service: No I do not want the rush service.
> fCustom Holster: Yes, I Understand And Agree This Is Non Returnable
> Shipping: UPS Ground: $14.00
> Sales Tax: $0.00
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Total: $123.95

CraigC
November 9, 2013, 02:29 PM
I don't like the way that looks, or really anything else about it. There's no reason why the sight track shouldn't be in the right place. I can't believe they charge $110 for an unfinished holster and another $75 for a finished one. Another $65 for $2 worth of shark hide is also ridiculous. For that much coin, it ought to be perfect. If I was setup for machine stitching and did that kind of stuff every day, if I already had the pattern, I'm sure I could make one in an hour. I probably spend more time finishing the flesh side than they do on the whole thing. I'm not trying to run them down so you'll buy from me because I don't do that type of holster. I just know what it takes to make one and am not impressed with the value I see there.

A suede lined, floral carved El Paso Saddlery #88 Street Combat would run $154.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/P1010138.JPG

9mmepiphany
November 9, 2013, 04:32 PM
Yes, that is very normal for an IWB holster, however I must admit that I didn't know that High Noon had moved the pricing up to that level.

I have an old Milt Sparks Summer Special which just has two welts of leather running down the length of the pouch and the front sight isn't centered either...of course I only paid $18 for it and see that they are up to $95. Even their top line VM-2 is only $120

I'm not seeing what you ordered that makes puts it into the non-refundable category

ivankerley
November 9, 2013, 04:38 PM
i wouldnt be happy with that at all, looks more than a little off and for the money you should be satisfied, obviously its bothering you id have them refund your money, etc.
best of luck
Gene

9mmepiphany
November 9, 2013, 05:07 PM
i wouldnt be happy with that at all, looks more than a little off and for the money you should be satisfied, obviously its bothering you id have them refund your money, etc.
best of luck
Gene
Not really an option when you agree to this

f. Custom Holster: Yes, I Understand And Agree This Is Non Returnable

You would think, they'd offer to try to fix it

CraigC
November 9, 2013, 05:15 PM
"Non returnable" just means you can't return it if you change your mind or don't like it. It does not give them a free pass on poor construction.

Either:
1) The pattern was drawn up poorly, with no regard for getting the sight channel at least close to center.

2) Or the guy running the machine either did not properly mark it or just eyeballed the placement of the sight channel.

3) Or they really don't care one way or another.

None of which are excusable on a $110 holster with no finish.

J2FLAN
November 9, 2013, 06:02 PM
That is not normal, at least on any of my holsters. Say, you go to a sight with a pipe or something in the high $ world, that may cause trouble. I like HIGH NOON and have two of their low-end holsters that are great, but that looks like bad work.

CPO15
November 9, 2013, 06:09 PM
I'm surprised High Noon hasn't been in this thread to defend themselves. They seem to get real prickly at criticism. I've only bought their generic IWB holsters to tide me over while waiting for a custom from another maker; their "off the rack" is good for a quick fix. I always stopped short of ordering their custom stuff due to the wait times and relative cost, but I did expect their special orders to be top notch, not the quality of the OP's purchase.

But, anyone can make a mistake in a product; I hope High Noon makes it right. Unless they really don't care to do so.

ivankerley
November 9, 2013, 07:41 PM
Not really an option when you agree to this

You would think, they'd offer to try to fix it

Yeah, id be politely(at first) expressing my concerns to them, including pictures if need be... hopefully they step up, nothing about that on a $110 purchase looks acceptable, hopefully it wouldnt look acceptable to them either
Best of luck to YourAlterEgo
Gene

rcmodel
November 9, 2013, 07:51 PM
including pictures if need be...And links to this thread on THR.

2,061 people are looking at THR as I type this.

Bad publicity for High Noon if you ask me!!


On the other hand, the holster was made to be carried flat against the body.

Not cinched tight against a sticking out hip- bone.

That will bend it further then designed, and pull the sight track off center.

As shown in the photo.

rc

The Lone Haranguer
November 9, 2013, 08:37 PM
In the photo you're just holding it in your hand. Your grasp is also bending it outward. Is it possible the sight track would center when you're wearing it and it is pulled tighter against your body? Try strapping it on as you normally would wear it and then hold a mirror below the holster at the muzzle end.

YourAlterEgo
November 9, 2013, 10:48 PM
It does look like I'm pushing on the leather in the original photo but I'm not. The leather is stiff, which I like. Very hard to make it change its shape without forcing things.

I'll try to get a picture of the front sight not touching the track in the morning. It ends up bulging the hip side (right side in the pic) out in a weird way.

I've thought about actual wear position helping out but its the hip side that is the problem. Wearing slacks would only put pressure on the holster from the hip, no pressure from the pants. exacerbating the problem. Holstering the gun, the sight starts off right down the middle, then rotates to push up against the sight track.

I don't think High Noon thinks its much an issue. They seem to think I'm asking for exact dead center, I'm not, just not pushing on the track in a way that it can get hung up. Their response time for emails is impeccable though.

From: Orders@HighNoonHolsters.com
To: Redacted
Subject: RE: Your High Noon Holsters Order Number: Redacted
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:38:32 -0500

Hi Redacted,

With our "reputation", if something was wrong it would be fixed in a split second. It’s a leather holster, they push right or left or sometimes centered and we made the site track out of soft rubber in case it hits the site. It will not harm your front site.

I pulled 2 going out, pictures below. As you can see, as I have said before its perfectly normal, it's impossible to get 2 sides of leather to be the exact same hardness to get a 100% centered track. One side is always stronger. It's impossible to put 1,000lbs of pressure on the holster to mold the holster on the gun you pick and have it be "exactly straight" it will move because its leather and leather runs thick and thin.

We see it all the time and it's normal. The site track is there to provide a barrier between the leather and you.

None of the holsters with site track are exactly straight.

We appreciate the help from the forums, but we know the product much better. We have been using the site track for 17 years and have seen many cows and horses get molded with it on.

A kydex holster will give you a perfectly straight track but leather is a different story.

Take Care
James
www.HighNoonHolsters.com

From: Redacted
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 3:23 PM
To: Orders
Subject: RE: Your High Noon Holsters Order Number: Redacted

Is there anything you can do to correct this, I'm really not okay with how the sight track is pushing on the front sight and have posted the picture and concern to a couple of enthusiast forums earlier today. All responses said to ask you to make it right.

Rule3
November 10, 2013, 12:58 AM
I guess the bottom line is: does it interfere with the draw of the gun? The slide (and sight) do not go post the end of that insert do they? They would have to extend out the bottom of the holster, so is there any way it can catch and snag?

If not, it just looks bad and will not snag on the draw.

I do not agree with the company response, for that money I would want something that not only worked but liked better.

HN is in FL near where I used to live. I ordered one holster from them and got a similar response on a minor issue. Needless to say I have not looked at their product again. There are to many other companies out there with better products, less money and better customer service.

ivankerley
November 10, 2013, 01:10 AM
im sorry but if theyre gonna offer the feature you have to get closer than that.
of course its gonna be difficult to get dead center but that looks twisted. would this cause more wear and tear on the finish? maybe im not understanding the feature correctly
Gene

PabloJ
November 10, 2013, 04:06 AM
I do not think canting is a problem. If one wants good alignment polymer holster of substantial construction is needed. Next time buy 'The Master's Leather' holster. Many good gun shops carry these products and there is very good reason for that. You get very good looks with excellent durability at reasonable cost.

What you have there might be of very sound construction, but looks.......? Let us not go there. Ok, it looks "raw and rugged".

PabloJ
November 10, 2013, 04:15 AM
I don't like the way that looks, or really anything else about it. There's no reason why the sight track shouldn't be in the right place. I can't believe they charge $110 for an unfinished holster and another $75 for a finished one. Another $65 for $2 worth of shark hide is also ridiculous. For that much coin, it ought to be perfect. If I was setup for machine stitching and did that kind of stuff every day, if I already had the pattern, I'm sure I could make one in an hour. I probably spend more time finishing the flesh side than they do on the whole thing. I'm not trying to run them down so you'll buy from me because I don't do that type of holster. I just know what it takes to make one and am not impressed with the value I see there.

A suede lined, floral carved El Paso Saddlery #88 Street Combat would run $154.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/P1010138.JPG
Now that very nice piece of leather hardware.

PabloJ
November 10, 2013, 04:31 AM
Well I like the name 'High Noon' gland someone besides me liked "The Quick and The Dead".

YourAlterEgo
November 10, 2013, 10:51 AM
On the looks side of things, I like the rough exterior. What High Noon says is that they put the smooth side on the inside for quicker upholstering, rough side on the outside so the holster has hold/friction against the body.

Silly as it sounds, I like the rough and tough raw look.

The canted sight channel though, has had me go back to my $10 nylon holster.

PabloJ
November 10, 2013, 10:57 AM
It's not a problem. As guy above suggests the belt pressure will move muzzle end toward the center.

340PD
November 10, 2013, 11:13 AM
Personally, I think it looks Horse <deleted>, and if I paid for it with a credit card, I would contact them and dispute the sale. I have three Custom holsters and NONE of them are even close to touching the front sight, whether I had the holster on my hip or in my hand.
IMHO you have an real reason to complain.

ivankerley
November 10, 2013, 11:17 AM
It's not a problem. As guy above suggests the belt pressure will move muzzle end toward the center.
obviously its a problem for YourAlterEgo as hes not happy with it, and it would irk me too, especially dropping that much coin on it

I've thought about actual wear position helping out but its the hip side that is the problem. Wearing slacks would only put pressure on the holster from the hip, no pressure from the pants. exacerbating the problem. Holstering the gun, the sight starts off right down the middle, then rotates to push up against the sight track.


seems it doesnt get better for YourAlterEgo when using it

Regards
Gene

Lucky Derby
November 14, 2013, 01:33 AM
That would be fine, and what I would expect, for a $35 holster. At High Noon's pricepoint, unacceptable.

Field Tester
November 14, 2013, 03:14 AM
I'm in agreement, they should try to make right on it. For as much money as you spent and as much competition there is, this should be a no brainer for them.
Have you Googled and found similar complaints?
Also it does seem you're getting the brush off. Not that their replies have been outright rude, but they do have a condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone.

Mainsail
November 14, 2013, 09:45 AM
I'm concerned about the person writing their emails not knowing the difference between 'sight' and 'site' even though the OP used it correctly in his email to them.

CraigC
November 14, 2013, 11:11 AM
Belt pressure won't fix that. On a foldover design, the pistol should be centered on the main seam. The sight channel should be directly across from that. Laid flat before stitching, it should be exactly in the middle of the pattern. Belt tension will make a slight difference in a pancake but not 'that' much.

Rule3
November 14, 2013, 01:39 PM
I think the major point here or the bottom line is:

The customer is not happy. What the customer wants is not a major deal and would cost next to nothing for the company to try and correct.

It is worth doing just for good will. I was in business my whole career it takes a lot more to gain back a lost or dissatisfied customer than it does to just do something helpful.

Take some of the best reviewed companies like LL Bean or in the gun business Brownells. They will do what ever it takes to make it right.

Sam1911
November 14, 2013, 02:10 PM
There are too many GOOD holster makers out there to spend that kind of cash on something that looks like that.

Truth be told I find it hard to believe that entire STYLE of holster could ever fetch that much cash, but that's more of a "different strokes" kind of issue. But to be called on your inaccuracy and call it "normal?" Poor, poor stuff there.

9mmepiphany
November 14, 2013, 03:45 PM
I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that a High Noon holster is in the 3 figure price range

YourAlterEgo
November 14, 2013, 08:40 PM
After reading the comments about cost of this unit, guess it wasn't a great deal even if it didn't have this "normal" issue. Anybody care to share some good competing IWB makers? I like the look of leather but Kydex isn't out of the question.

To answer the question asked earlier "Have you Googled and found similar complaints?". Most reviews I found were on their lower tiered offerings. Found very few on their top tier. I bought into High Noon Holster brand due to a recommendation from a friend. He also only had experience with their lower, $20 type offerings which are of the one size fits all type.

I may email them one more time to ask if they are sure they don't want to do anything to correct this. Maybe talk to the credit card company if they still refuse. I understand that a leather product may not be 100% repeatable (this is a tad bit away from 100%), but you need to state and/or show what the quality of the product your offering actually is. "A patented stitched in sight track that is carefully blended into the design", kind of leads you to believe they got the process down. Can one actually patent something that can not be reliably duplicated?

9mmepiphany
November 14, 2013, 09:50 PM
I think you'd have a hard time bettering the original Bruce Nelson designed Summer Special as produced by Milt Sparks (http://www.miltsparks.com/). This is there Summer Special 2 which retails for $100

http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/SS-2_large.jpg

They're regular Summer Special is $95

http://www.miltsparks.com/images/Photos/SSpecial_large.jpg

armoredman
November 14, 2013, 11:30 PM
Perhaps I am the odd man out, but all I use is High Noon, and I have/have had some very good rigs by them, including this Slide Guard for a CZ P-07.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/fits.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/fits.jpg.html)

This is my daily carry, and has been for a couple of years now, a CZ SP-01 Phantom in a High Noon Down Under with straps, and couple with the High Noon Rock Steady gun belt, it's a perfect combo.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/DownUndertwomonthslater.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/High%20noon%20Gear/DownUndertwomonthslater.jpg.html)

The molded in sight track is a plus with some of their rigs, and I have one as well, a Double Jeopardy,(show with my CZ P-01), one of the most potentially versatile IWB rigs I've ever used.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/DJ6_zpsf5e2b678.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/High%20noon%20Gear/DJ6_zpsf5e2b678.jpg.html)

Molded in sight track is dead on in this model.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/DJ4_zps80ca9d2f.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/High%20noon%20Gear/DJ4_zps80ca9d2f.jpg.html)

My wife also uses High Noon, with the same Double Jeopardy for her CZ 2075 RAMI.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/JoRAMIinDJ5_zps49963f2e.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/High%20noon%20Gear/JoRAMIinDJ5_zps49963f2e.jpg.html)

Very comfortable rig, and while it IS quite pricey, it's a top flight holster. I am always a BIG lover of sweat shields, being a desert rat. It's still t-shirt weather here in AZ, and that sweat shield on the High Noon Holsters I have, like this Slide Guard for a Glock 19, (use it at work, don't own the Glock, sorry), is VERY handy for keeping seat off a firearm finish.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/GlockSlideGuard_zpscf91f9d1.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/armoredman/media/High%20noon%20Gear/GlockSlideGuard_zpscf91f9d1.jpg.html)

I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted, and I tend to agree, that isn't what I would consider right, and I hope you get it squared away. I just have to take issue with people stating High Noon doesn't make what they would consider quality leather, because that's all I have ever gotten out of them

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 12:59 AM
Belt pressure won't fix that. On a foldover design, the pistol should be centered on the main seam. The sight channel should be directly across from that. Laid flat before stitching, it should be exactly in the middle of the pattern. Belt tension will make a slight difference in a pancake but not 'that' much.
The pattern is straight and sewed straight. The problem lies in the molding process. As you should know........ leather stretches and does it even more with the track in there. We can never tell exactly how that track will line up, it all depends on the leather. In any case right , left or center, the front site never will catch on the holster. It can't because our design will not allow it. The leather extends over the muzzle of the gun. I emailed the OP some other pictures, I don't see them posted.

The track off a bit is normal, aesthetically the OP wants it centered but in no way does that take away from the quality and function of the holster. Its leather sometimes unpredictable.

We did offer to make him one in Horse Hide, I wonder where that post went, OP OP why did you leave that out? And where are our pictures we sent you of the ones with the left center track?

We offered the horse because its so stiff, it has less of a chance of one side being a different durometer.

Bottom line is I have been working with the track for 17 years, the track just provides a barrier between the site and leather.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 01:04 AM
I'm still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that a High Noon holster is in the 3 figure price range

I am not sure why, last 15 years they in the 3 figure price range. The problem is we have holsters from 25.00 to 500.00. The lite duty holsters everyone can afford, so that what you hear about so often. So most folks just associate us with the lower end.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 01:07 AM
I think the major point here or the bottom line is:

The customer is not happy. What the customer wants is not a major deal and would cost next to nothing for the company to try and correct.

It is worth doing just for good will. I was in business my whole career it takes a lot more to gain back a lost or dissatisfied customer than it does to just do something helpful.

Take some of the best reviewed companies like LL Bean or in the gun business Brownells. They will do what ever it takes to make it right.
We could make 5 new ones and the track will be off somewhere. What everyone has to understand is its leather and the track is soft rubber, when molded they shift.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 01:19 AM
"Non returnable" just means you can't return it if you change your mind or don't like it. It does not give them a free pass on poor construction.

Either:
1) The pattern was drawn up poorly, with no regard for getting the sight channel at least close to center.

2) Or the guy running the machine either did not properly mark it or just eyeballed the placement of the sight channel.

3) Or they really don't care one way or another.

None of which are excusable on a $110 holster with no finish.


Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.

The patterns are steel rule dies, set in stone, there can be no mistake cutting.

The placement of the site has it own die set so no mistakes can be made.

The last embellishment is just fool's errand and you completed the task well. I really have to say something, that's a piss off, "we don't care" if you know anything about High Noon Holsters for the last 17 years is that we do care.

We even offered him a Horsehide upgrade but somehow he failed to mention that.

Do us a favor next time forget the "drive by post", do some research when you post, for the good of all the forum members.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 01:31 AM
I'm in agreement, they should try to make right on it. For as much money as you spent and as much competition there is, this should be a no brainer for them.
Have you Googled and found similar complaints?
Also it does seem you're getting the brush off. Not that their replies have been outright rude, but they do have a condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone.

This here post is another propaganda post and we take offense to it. For 17 years we built up a stellar reputation, within the gun community.

"condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone"

You must be joking us, that's not the way High Noon does it. You are another one, a "drive by poster." Get all the information before dirtying up the forum. Its a nice place, lets keep it that way.

Maybe the OP should check his spam box? We offered him the Horse on us, its stiffer and has a better chance to keep the track somewhat straight.

Alex

Field Tester
November 15, 2013, 02:31 AM
This here post is another propaganda post and we take offense to it. For 17 years we built up a stellar reputation, within the gun community.

"condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone"

You must be joking us, that's not the way High Noon does it. You are another one, a "drive by poster." Get all the information before dirtying up the forum. Its a nice place, lets keep it that way.

Maybe the OP should check his spam box? We offered him the Horse on us, its stiffer and has a better chance to keep the track somewhat straight.

Alex
Drive by poster?

All I said was that your company should attempt to correct a mistake that can obviously lead to possible damage to the OP's firearm, or issues with drawing. Now you claim you did that, good for you. That's how a quality business should operate. I made no disparaging remarks regarding your ability to make good on your product because as you said, I only had one side to the story.

As for my comment regarding your condescension, I stand by it. And your reply to my post now backs up my belief. Obviously your company could use a bit more tact with their PR. I don't blame you for wanting to defend your product. But the OP obviously felt a brush off from you and I felt the same. Your comments to me were unnecessary and could have been better chosen. In today's market place, you would think a company such as yours wouldn't have the luxury to respond the way you do. But what do I know, I'm just a drive by poster and not a potential consumer right?

9mmepiphany
November 15, 2013, 02:34 AM
I want to thank High Noon Holsters for taking the time to comment.

It is always good to get both sides of the story. I now also wonder why the OP did not post the other pictures or mention that you had offered the Horsehide upgrade...I would have certainly taken it...and that would definitely fallen under a generous attempt to "Make Things Right"

I have to admit that I was unaware that your products covered such a wide price range.

Field Tester
November 15, 2013, 02:38 AM
PS,

I also asked the OP if there were similar complaints regarding the track. First and foremost should be for him to check if there were issues with drawing. You already point put that the design makes it impossible to snag on. What about any excessive wear to the blueing? You have raving fans of your product that state this isn't normal for your company and the consumer isn't happy. Shouldn't that be a badge of pride on it's own for you and at the same time tell you both something?

YourAlterEgo
November 15, 2013, 10:49 AM
"The pattern is straight and sewed straight. The problem lies in the molding process. As you should know........ leather stretches and does it even more with the track in there. We can never tell exactly how that track will line up, it all depends on the leather. In any case right , left or center, the front site never will catch on the holster. It can't because our design will not allow it. The leather extends over the muzzle of the gun. I emailed the OP some other pictures, I don't see them posted." You should state this right alongside where you state the "A patented stitched in sight track that is carefully blended into the design". The pictures, you should also post those along with the rest of the nice pictures on your site, and/or you can post them here. If I walk onto a car lot, I can see and test drive the product. I can't do that with internet purchases. You kind of need to tell the customer what deficiencies there may be. Like I've stated previously in this thread, I searched, think I only found one other picture of the sight track and it looked nice, just like the guy that posted just above your first post in this thread.

“The track off a bit is normal, aesthetically the OP wants it centered but in no way does that take away from the quality and function of the holster.” Can you point to one place that I have asked for centered? All that I have asked for is for the sight not to be in contact with the track. I do not want to have to worry about it getting snagged in a situation that would already be high intensity.

“We did offer to make him one in Horse Hide, I wonder where that post went, OP OP why did you leave that out?” I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate that I am being deceptive and dishonest here. Can you please post ANY thing you have sent me that substantiates your claimed offer??? I would ask that you redact my email but you will not find any such “offer”.

“And where are our pictures we sent you of the ones with the left center track?” Again, that’s your job to tell me what you’re offering. I don’t see how the pictures of what I consider to be defective help you or me. I kind of said to myself when I saw them, if that many tracks come out defective, why wouldn’t they change the design or LET POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS KNOW THIS!

“We offered the horse because its so stiff, it has less of a chance of one side being a different durometer.” Again, no you did not. Yes I check what’s in my spam box, block true spam, and allow what is not spam. I have received only ONE email you HNH that was not a response to an inquiry or request from me. That was the “THANKS FOR ORDERING” email. The next email was from the delivery company. Fine, there is no use for any other contact but you most certainly did not make the generous offer of horse hide.

“We could make 5 new ones and the track will be off somewhere. What everyone has to understand is its leather and the track is soft rubber, when molded they shift.” It would have been helpful to me if this was stated on your website along with the positive talking points.

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.” It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do.

“We even offered him a Horsehide upgrade but somehow he failed to mention that.” No you did not. I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate I am being deceptive and dishonest. Please provide ANYTHING that substantiates your claim. You have brought this horse thing up several time to make your company look better, but it is simply not true.

“"condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone"

You must be joking us, that's not the way High Noon does it. You are another one, a "drive by poster." Get all the information before dirtying up the forum. Its a nice place, lets keep it that way.

Maybe the OP should check his spam box? We offered him the Horse on us, its stiffer and has a better chance to keep the track somewhat straight.”

For me, does feel like "condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone, as I stated early on in the post. But I also said I thought you did it politely. Quite telling people they are doing “drive by post”. That is a silly thing to say. They are stating their opinion in response to my initial post. I do check my spam box. I would give about a 0.01% chance that you sent anything to me that was inadvertently deleted. If could post up your “Horse” email, that would be great (I will now refer to this as the “horse ____ email”.


I feel I have been very honest about the product I received from High Noon Holster. I’ve said I like the look, the stiff leather, the finish, etc. I have never asked for my sight to go straight now the middle, but did state that I am not comfortable with it making contact with the track. I have not ask HNH for a refund, discount or anything more than what I paid for. I have posted our correspondence in their entirety, minus two pictures of what I also consider defective. Again I felt and feel they have no bearing on my issue. If they would have been displayed along with the rest of this “features” photos, that would have put the burden of responsibility in my lap. You responding to my concern AFTER PURCHACE with “Hey look, quite a few of our tracks come out pretty screwy”, does not do anything to help the situation. This thread was started with me asking if others would be comfortable with the product I received. I think general consensus says “No”

You have responded for High Noon Holsters by calling me dishonest and deceptive while making claims of a generous “horse ____ email”. Calling others “drive by poster” and laughable for stating their opinion. You defend HNH’s reputation by saying “OP didn’t show you the two pictures I sent him AFTER HE PURCHASED THE PRODUCT of other screwy sight tracks, and by also falsely claiming your generous horse offer? Really? In my opinion, that is poor form.

Again is there anything that you can do to help with my concern, even if it is only to give me some pointers on how to fix it myself.

YourAlterEgo
November 15, 2013, 11:00 AM
I lied, it was one picture with two holsters in it. It can't hurt repeating, I have never asked for perfectly straight, only for it not to push or make contact with the track. Mine does not lightly "touch", it pushes on the track once the front sight makes it about half way down the track.

response email:
From: Orders@HighNoonHolsters.com
To:
Subject: RE: Your High Noon Holsters Order Number:
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 16:38:32 -0500

Hi ,

With our "reputation", if something was wrong it would be fixed in a split second. It’s a leather holster, they push right or left or sometimes centered and we made the site track out of soft rubber in case it hits the site. It will not harm your front site.

I pulled 2 going out, pictures below. As you can see, as I have said before its perfectly normal, it's impossible to get 2 sides of leather to be the exact same hardness to get a 100% centered track. One side is always stronger. It's impossible to put 1,000lbs of pressure on the holster to mold the holster on the gun you pick and have it be "exactly straight" it will move because its leather and leather runs thick and thin.

We see it all the time and it's normal. The site track is there to provide a barrier between the leather and you.

None of the holsters with site track are exactly straight.

We appreciate the help from the forums, but we know the product much better. We have been using the site track for 17 years and have seen many cows and horses get molded with it on.

A kydex holster will give you a perfectly straight track but leather is a different story.

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 11:57 AM
I'm glad High Noon responded. Because now I know that you are basically paying hand-made prices for machine-made holsters. That "the machine makes no mistakes", so whatever the machine turns out is what you get. No shortage of excuses.


The pattern is straight and sewed straight. The problem lies in the molding process. As you should know........ leather stretches...
If you're telling me that the S-I-G-H-T track is stitched in perfectly centered and then the leather "stretches" to get it that far out of line, there is either something wrong with your process or your leather.


The placement of the site has it own die set so no mistakes can be made.
Yet here we are.

Master Blaster
November 15, 2013, 01:41 PM
Here is my 2 cents, I have about 15 leather holsters form 5 different makers that have a sewn in sight track, none of them are that far off or that SLOPPY.
I would never consider buying a holster from High Noon if that is what they pass off for good workmanship. I have a 12 year old IWB made for my G26 by DeSantis holster called the Inner Piece. The sight is centered in the track, The workmanship is much neater, and I have carried the holster hundreds of times over the last 12 years and the sight track is still centered.

Here it is 79.99 list price, and less than that from Natchez

http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-HOLSTER-OR-ACCESSORY/INSIDE-THE-WAIST-BAND-HOLSTERS/Inner-Piece/Glock/26-27-33

JMHO YMMV.

farm23
November 15, 2013, 02:26 PM
I don't have a dog in this discussion but I have learned a lot.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 03:54 PM
Drive by poster?

All I said was that your company should attempt to correct a mistake that can obviously lead to possible damage to the OP's firearm, or issues with drawing. Now you claim you did that, good for you. That's how a quality business should operate. I made no disparaging remarks regarding your ability to make good on your product because as you said, I only had one side to the story.

As for my comment regarding your condescension, I stand by it. And your reply to my post now backs up my belief. Obviously your company could use a bit more tact with their PR. I don't blame you for wanting to defend your product. But the OP obviously felt a brush off from you and I felt the same. Your comments to me were unnecessary and could have been better chosen. In today's market place, you would think a company such as yours wouldn't have the luxury to respond the way you do. But what do I know, I'm just a drive by poster and not a potential consumer right?

If you search the web we have a near spotless reputation, and we try hard to keep it that way.

The problem with typed words is its an interpretation by the reader. Example being, did you shut the door? or DID YOU SHUT THE DOOR!!! Outside of the caps, which one did I mean? I apologize if you took my response back to you in a negative way, wasn't meant like that. We are new we are around 17 years.

All I said was that your company should attempt to correct a mistake that can obviously lead to possible damage to the OP's firearm, or issues with drawing.

The problem being, you assumed it was a mistake and could damage the gun. And then posted the misinformation. Its not a mistake as I posted before. Its just what happens to leather and that track. As I said before the soft rubber site track will not damage the site or gun and there is no issue when drawing.

And we did offer the horse hide thru email.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 04:01 PM
I want to thank High Noon Holsters for taking the time to comment.

It is always good to get both sides of the story. I now also wonder why the OP did not post the other pictures or mention that you had offered the Horsehide upgrade...I would have certainly taken it...and that would definitely fallen under a generous attempt to "Make Things Right"

I have to admit that I was unaware that your products covered such a wide price range.
Yes, LOL its a problem we battle often. We have something for everyone. We start with lite duty holsters, then move to Medium, then the extreme duty. A good example here this page here.
http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Product_Line/Belt_Holsters/Inside_The_Waistband/inside_the_waistband.html

We break it down so its easy to understand. We know not every person needs a $100.00 holster. It all depends on the job you are trying to get done. We do find ourselves grabbing those 30.00 holsters often here in the Florida heat.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 04:16 PM
PS,

I also asked the OP if there were similar complaints regarding the track. First and foremost should be for him to check if there were issues with drawing. You already point put that the design makes it impossible to snag on. What about any excessive wear to the blueing? You have raving fans of your product that state this isn't normal for your company and the consumer isn't happy. Shouldn't that be a badge of pride on it's own for you and at the same time tell you both something?

Yes we agree with you, but if we lay 15 of the exact same holsters down, there are differences in all of them.

Everyone of the tracks will be different to a trained eye. Our customers don't have that chance to see that, so based on there experience they are correct.

But what needs to be understood is leather is a natural product and reacts different to the manufacturing process some of the time, buts that leather, we understand that.

Have you ever eaten a tender steak and then got a tough one?

Alex

JTQ
November 15, 2013, 04:54 PM
I've had good success with High Noon products in the past. That sight channel does look off to me, and while I understand the explanation from High Noon, I think it would still bug me a little to see that.

On the other hand, whenever I see somebody join a forum to complain about a product, I get a little suspicious.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 05:11 PM
Here is my 2 cents, I have about 15 leather holsters form 5 different makers that have a sewn in sight track, none of them are that far off or that SLOPPY.
I would never consider buying a holster from High Noon if that is what they pass off for good workmanship. I have a 12 year old IWB made for my G26 by DeSantis holster called the Inner Piece. The sight is centered in the track, The workmanship is much neater, and I have carried the holster hundreds of times over the last 12 years and the sight track is still centered.

Here it is 79.99 list price, and less than that from Natchez

http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-HOLSTER-OR-ACCESSORY/INSIDE-THE-WAIST-BAND-HOLSTERS/Inner-Piece/Glock/26-27-33

JMHO YMMV.

We appreciate you posting and trying to help, this is a classic example of comparing apples to oranges, another misunderstanding of holsters. Not your fault, its hard to "look under the hood" when it comes to holsters.

There is no stitched in site track in that holster, there is room made in the molding process for the front site. But in no way is there a stitched in rubber track in that holster, according to the picture/link you posted. After that holster is molded, if the leather shifts to one side, it is then moved by hand to make it look even. You can't do that with our track.

Alex

YourAlterEgo
November 15, 2013, 05:24 PM
whenever I see somebody join a forum to complain about a product, I get a little suspicious

That is very understandable, but I didn't complain in my original post. I had already received a response email from HNH stating they didn't consider it a problem. I asked the group if they would be okay with this product as it was delivered to get others perspective. Was I simply being a whinny lite girl or would others feel the same about it as I was feeling. It was an honest attempt to get third party feedback before responding to HNH.

I was honest with HNH when I told them I had posted it to a couple of enthusiast forums and general consensus was that they (responders) would not be happy. Received a "they don't know what there talking about, I've been doing this for 17 years" response.

He never said the order was not real, or any of the posted emails untrue. I have not asked for money back, only a repair.

He responded by telling untruths and attacking my character. I'm very surprised he has not taken the opportunity to clear up anything in my wall of text response to him. Original post, not meant to be spiteful in any way, at this point, I'm a little pissed off at High Noon Holster.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 05:38 PM
I'm glad High Noon responded. Because now I know that you are basically paying hand-made prices for machine-made holsters. That "the machine makes no mistakes", so whatever the machine turns out is what you get. No shortage of excuses.



If you're telling me that the S-I-G-H-T track is stitched in perfectly centered and then the leather "stretches" to get it that far out of line, there is either something wrong with your process or your leather.



Yet here we are.

Huge misunderstanding of holster manufacturing. I am not sure you understood my post at all? We and most other holster manufacturers who could afford the dies and the machine to cut would have a different view then yours. One would want the patterns made into steel dies and the leather cut out by a machine instead of by hand, in that way no mistakes are made.

"basically paying hand-made prices for machine-made holsters."

To be clearer and give you an example and how your post is more misinformation is:

And you may not want to hear this but a machine like a "sewing machine" is used to sew with also. I am sure almost any holster maker has one because a sewing machine is 100 times (exaggeration) more accurate then trying to do it by hand.

So should we not use the better method to make a holster with???

Your post makes no sense at all.

Alex

Sam1911
November 15, 2013, 05:47 PM
It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense. Maybe you'd like to adjust or clarify your statement? A sewing machine is never used because it is more accurate. Only because it is faster.

Do you only do marketing or c.s. for High Noon or have you ever done a shift behind a stitching machine?


Even if it made basic sense to say that, we're all looking at pictures of holsters that are poorly formed and you're attempting to tell us they are more accurate than the far nicer hand made examples shown?

Please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light. You only get one ... :uhoh:

BSA1
November 15, 2013, 05:59 PM
YourAlterEgo,

Did I miss where you have actually worn the gun and holster, and if so, over what period of time?

Or is you grievance solely based on the appearance of the front sight and sight track fit in Post #1?

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 06:15 PM
"The pattern is straight and sewed straight. The problem lies in the molding process. As you should know........ leather stretches and does it even more with the track in there. We can never tell exactly how that track will line up, it all depends on the leather. In any case right , left or center, the front site never will catch on the holster. It can't because our design will not allow it. The leather extends over the muzzle of the gun. I emailed the OP some other pictures, I don't see them posted." You should state this right alongside where you state the "A patented stitched in sight track that is carefully blended into the design". The pictures, you should also post those along with the rest of the nice pictures on your site, and/or you can post them here. If I walk onto a car lot, I can see and test drive the product. I can't do that with internet purchases. You kind of need to tell the customer what deficiencies there may be. Like I've stated previously in this thread, I searched, think I only found one other picture of the sight track and it looked nice, just like the guy that posted just above your first post in this thread.

“The track off a bit is normal, aesthetically the OP wants it centered but in no way does that take away from the quality and function of the holster.” Can you point to one place that I have asked for centered? All that I have asked for is for the sight not to be in contact with the track. I do not want to have to worry about it getting snagged in a situation that would already be high intensity.

“We did offer to make him one in Horse Hide, I wonder where that post went, OP OP why did you leave that out?” I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate that I am being deceptive and dishonest here. Can you please post ANY thing you have sent me that substantiates your claimed offer??? I would ask that you redact my email but you will not find any such “offer”.

“And where are our pictures we sent you of the ones with the left center track?” Again, that’s your job to tell me what you’re offering. I don’t see how the pictures of what I consider to be defective help you or me. I kind of said to myself when I saw them, if that many tracks come out defective, why wouldn’t they change the design or LET POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS KNOW THIS!

“We offered the horse because its so stiff, it has less of a chance of one side being a different durometer.” Again, no you did not. Yes I check what’s in my spam box, block true spam, and allow what is not spam. I have received only ONE email you HNH that was not a response to an inquiry or request from me. That was the “THANKS FOR ORDERING” email. The next email was from the delivery company. Fine, there is no use for any other contact but you most certainly did not make the generous offer of horse hide.

“We could make 5 new ones and the track will be off somewhere. What everyone has to understand is its leather and the track is soft rubber, when molded they shift.” It would have been helpful to me if this was stated on your website along with the positive talking points.

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.” It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do.

“We even offered him a Horsehide upgrade but somehow he failed to mention that.” No you did not. I won’t call you a LIAR if you don’t insinuate I am being deceptive and dishonest. Please provide ANYTHING that substantiates your claim. You have brought this horse thing up several time to make your company look better, but it is simply not true.

“"condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone"

You must be joking us, that's not the way High Noon does it. You are another one, a "drive by poster." Get all the information before dirtying up the forum. Its a nice place, lets keep it that way.

Maybe the OP should check his spam box? We offered him the Horse on us, its stiffer and has a better chance to keep the track somewhat straight.”

For me, does feel like "condescending and a "we've already got your money, so quit bothering me and go away" tone, as I stated early on in the post. But I also said I thought you did it politely. Quite telling people they are doing “drive by post”. That is a silly thing to say. They are stating their opinion in response to my initial post. I do check my spam box. I would give about a 0.01% chance that you sent anything to me that was inadvertently deleted. If could post up your “Horse” email, that would be great (I will now refer to this as the “horse ____ email”.


I feel I have been very honest about the product I received from High Noon Holster. I’ve said I like the look, the stiff leather, the finish, etc. I have never asked for my sight to go straight now the middle, but did state that I am not comfortable with it making contact with the track. I have not ask HNH for a refund, discount or anything more than what I paid for. I have posted our correspondence in their entirety, minus two pictures of what I also consider defective. Again I felt and feel they have no bearing on my issue. If they would have been displayed along with the rest of this “features” photos, that would have put the burden of responsibility in my lap. You responding to my concern AFTER PURCHACE with “Hey look, quite a few of our tracks come out pretty screwy”, does not do anything to help the situation. This thread was started with me asking if others would be comfortable with the product I received. I think general consensus says “No”

You have responded for High Noon Holsters by calling me dishonest and deceptive while making claims of a generous “horse ____ email”. Calling others “drive by poster” and laughable for stating their opinion. You defend HNH’s reputation by saying “OP didn’t show you the two pictures I sent him AFTER HE PURCHASED THE PRODUCT of other screwy sight tracks, and by also falsely claiming your generous horse offer? Really? In my opinion, that is poor form.

Again is there anything that you can do to help with my concern, even if it is only to give me some pointers on how to fix it myself.

I am going to skip over most of the bells and whistles in your post and get to the point. We did not call you dishonest and deceptive at all, we suggested you check your spam box, maybe the email did not get to you. We gave you the benefit of the doubt, something you do not do for us. No big deal here.

You out right state we did not send that email etc, etc, etc and we are just saying that to make High Noon look good etc etc. Give us a break, are you joking? Really?

I am not sure if you are new to computers, you are certainty new to this forum. But I now call on who ever is reading this thread, I would like to know, have you ever sent an email and it not get there? Has someone said they sent an email to you and you never got it?

One could have easily turn the tables and say you are a High Noon hater, you got the email and you are lying. Does that make sense??

This case is closed and it does not make you look good in any way. We need to move the conversation to a more mature level.

So the only thing to do now is, lets pretend we sent the email and its lost in cyber space and you just found out. The offer stands get a return number and we will start to make you a horse holster. The track may be off at the front or at the end, I mean the opposite side. But the horse is much stiffer then cow and fares better when it comes to the shift of the track.


Off topic here. It would be much easier for forum members and us to read your posts if when you quote do not put your response right next to the quote. Put it under it. Its really hard to read. Especially when its a big post like yours.

Example here:

What you posted

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.” It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do

Better way to post

“Forums are great places of information and then sometimes they fail, like this post.”

It has not been a fail for me. At least I know others would feel the same way I did when I received the holster, and I still do.

Alex

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 06:45 PM
High Noon is not scoring any points with me with their comments.


Huge misunderstanding of holster manufacturing. I am not sure you understood my post at all? We and most other holster manufacturers who could afford the dies and the machine to cut would have a different view then yours. One would want the patterns made into steel dies and the leather cut out by a machine instead of by hand, in that way no mistakes are made.
No, machines make it easier for less skilled labor to turn out a decent holster. Sewing machines work faster. They are not better or more accurate. Your statement about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate is laughable at best. How many holsters have you hand stitched to make that statement? Any at all??? Or are you really just a machine operator? To make that statement makes me think you've never made a holster without a machine and are just repeating some nonsense you heard around the shop.

Yes, as with most other things, the best quality work is done by hand. That includes leather work and no, I'm not referring to myself.

I can't help but notice the pronounced stitching in this pic. As if the thread tension was not set properly. The thread should be embedded in the leather to protect it from abrasion. Which we can already see a bit of fraying, even on the new one in the OP. I also see very sloppily and unevenly finished edges. Acceptable on a $50 holster but not on one that cost twice as much. I'd sure as hell be unhappy to see this kind of thing on a $185 black version.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/DJ4_zps80ca9d2f.jpg

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 06:51 PM
Does anybody see anything "100 times less accurate" about this hand stitching?

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/leatherwork/large/IMG_1776b.jpg

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 06:58 PM
My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/P1010138.JPG

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 07:30 PM
It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense. Maybe you'd like to adjust or clarify your statement? A sewing machine is never used because it is more accurate. Only because it is faster.

Do you only do marketing or c.s. for High Noon or have you ever done a shift behind a stitching machine?


Even if it made basic sense to say that, we're all looking at pictures of holsters that are poorly formed and you're attempting to tell us they are more accurate than the far nicer hand made examples shown?

Please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light. You only get one ... :uhoh:

That's interesting coming from a moderator and unexpected. Rude and obnoxious would be something else that comes to mind. In 17 years on forums that has not happened from someone who is a "moderator".

If you look on any forum my name, Alex, (also Justin) is there for High Noon, for the past 17 years. I am not a CS or marketing rep. I am in the factory, always. I happened to set up all of our sewing machines from an Adler to a Juki to a Campbell (needle/awl setup).

"It is patently absurd to say a sewing machine is more accurate at stitching than someone hand-placing individual stitches. That doesn't even make sense."

Well, now lets get to sewing machines and your post up top. I disagree strongly.

A sewing machine can be adjusted to throw any stitch length you want. Example being, 8 stitches per inch, 6 stitches per inch etc etc. Whatever the user wants. Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.

Sam, please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light and you are a moderator, one who represents the forum?

You only get one and unfortunately you never get a second chance to make a first impression. I must say I am still shocked at your post.

Holster History for the members.

To give you a bit more info on High Noon Holsters and myself. We happened to be very good friends with the greatest holster maker alive, Red Nichols. We have known him and been friends with him for years. He is the inventor of our military's M9 holster and countless patented other holsters. He drove the industry in holster design. A good education over here http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Red_Nichols/About_Us/about_us.html

Why do you think Red has aligned himself with us? He could pick anyone in the industry. Just a little more food for thought Sam.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 07:33 PM
My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/P1010138.JPG
Ok Craig not 100 times. You are correct. But I did say 100 times (exaggerated)

Oppy
November 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
After seeing the OPs pic I went and grabbed my XD9 in its High Noon 'Split Decision' Holster. It looks just fine (the site is nearly perfectly aligned), and very finished by comparison (no offense). It's actually very nice for the $40 otd I paid for it. For the money I'd buy from HNH again, no problem.

I also have a US Gun Leather holster that I view as a 'top drawer' holster, but I wouldn't directly compare the two because, although they perform the same function, they are really two different beasts all together.

Maybe I missed it, but I hope in the end there is resolution that is acceptable to both parties...queue the music and drumming circle :>.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 07:41 PM
My own pic is a good example of what can happen with machine stitching. You can easily see that the stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster. Particularly along the bottom. This does not happen when you hand stitch. Because we use tools that Alex has probably never heard of to insure the stitch line is an equal distance from the edge from beginning to end. No holster is perfect, whether made by man or machine but when you make comments about machine stitching being 100 times more accurate than hand stitching, expect to be called on it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsii/large/P1010138.JPG

I can't believe what you post and actually think. The stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster because its due to the operator working the machine. Not because its done by a machine. In a walking foot machine which most heavy duty leather machines are you a steering the work, the operator did not stay on the edge. If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.

Alex

Field Tester
November 15, 2013, 07:42 PM
HNH,

Your reply to me was completely unnecessary and you've crossed into the threshold of completely rude. There's no point in responding to you because it's obvious that you cannot handle any criticism or questioning with any tact.

I take your replies to me with great offense and I know that I will NEVER purchase any products from your company. Based off your responses to the others in this thread and unwillingness to stand by your products, I will also recommend to my family, friends, Gun Club and anyone who ever asks in person or on any forums to stear clear of your company. I hope this thread lives as an example for me to point out to others.

Field Tester
November 15, 2013, 07:45 PM
Also, if you dispute the fact the no other emails were sent to make good on your product, why haven't you posted your original missing emails with the time stamp on them? The OP said itwas perfectly fine if you redact his personal info. You haven't done this, yet you still feel content with calling him a liar or "it got lost in the spam filter".

Either way, I'm done with this thread and this company. Your responses have been nothing short of shameful.

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 07:46 PM
Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.
Utter nonsense from top to bottom from someone who has obviously never hand stitched a holster in his life.


I can't believe what you post and actually think. The stitching is not the same distance from the edge all the way around the holster because its due to the operator working the machine. Not because its done by a machine. In a walking foot machine which most heavy duty leather machines are you a steering the work, the operator did not stay on the edge. If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.
Yeah, smart guy, I understand it's the guy running the machine. This discussion 'may' have a chance of being productive if you stop assuming you're talking to idiots. Which is probably your approach to customer service and why we're having it in the first place.

Fact is, it is up to the guy running the machine to maintain the distance to edge. The machine does not do it for him and the machine does not guarantee a better stitch or a correct distance to edge. Maybe if YOU knew what YOU were talking about.....

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 07:50 PM
YourAlterEgo,

Did I miss where you have actually worn the gun and holster, and if so, over what period of time?

Or is you grievance solely based on the appearance of the front sight and sight track fit in Post #1?

Its appearance. Has nothing to do with function of the holster.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 07:51 PM
HNH,

Your reply to me was completely unnecessary and you've crossed into the threshold of completely rude. There's no point in responding to you because it's obvious that you cannot handle any criticism or questioning with any tact.

I take your replies to me with great offense and I know that I will NEVER purchase any products from your company. Based off your responses to the others in this thread and unwillingness to stand by your products, I will also recommend to my family, friends, Gun Club and anyone who ever asks in person or on any forums to stear clear of your company. I hope this thread lives as an example for me to point out to others.
We hope it lives too. We do stand by our products. Search the web

Alex

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 07:53 PM
Has nothing to do with function of the holster.
He stated plainly that he can feel the front sight grinding down the inside of the sight groove.

If you had put half the effort into your actual customer service as you have here just making excuses for poor craftsmanship, you might have actually gained potential customers instead of losing them. Especially considering that your holsters only take minutes to make. Methinks that High Noon has experienced some success and let it go to their heads. :rolleyes:

I just remembered that I have a High Noon pancake that is probably 8yrs years old. It came with a used S&W I bought. I was so impressed with it that I have never used it and don't even remember where it is.

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 08:04 PM
Yeah, smart guy, I understand it's the guy running the machine. This discussion 'may' have a chance of being productive if you stop assuming you're talking to idiots.
Fact is, it is up to the guy running the machine to maintain the distance to edge. The machine does not do it for him and the machine does not guarantee a better stitch or a correct distance to edge. Maybe if YOU knew what YOU were talking about.....


I did said the operator did not stay on the edge. I am not sure why you are getting so mad. Its just a discussion. You have a different opinion and a different way of doing things then I do. Its nothing to get mad at. If you like hand stitching great and you think its better great. My experience and opinions are different. Nothing to get disrespectful over.

Why not go to the 9mm vs 45. Maybe we will get somewhere?

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 08:08 PM
Especially considering that your holsters only take minutes to make.


That is on par with my 100 times comment. Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.

Alex

Field Tester
November 15, 2013, 08:15 PM
That is on par with my 100 times comment. Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.

Alex
I think you should show this thread to your superiors before you dig yourself any further. This is not how a quality company responds to a client base.

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 08:16 PM
Mad? Don't flatter yourself. I'm amused more than anything.


If you knew what you were talking about you would not have posted that.
Statements like that are what take it from a discussion to an argument.


You have a different opinion and a different way of doing things then I do.
No, you have made several statements here that are completely untrue and done so out of pure ignorance.


Coming Craig admit when you are wrong.
Prove me wrong and I will gladly admit it. I was obviously being facetious but only exaggerated slightly.


Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.
I'd like to see you take this statement to a leather working forum. :)

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
Again, Alex, tell us how many holsters you have hand stitched? Are you even able to construct anything out of leather without the dies, presses and machines? For you to make such general statements about the inferiority of hand work, surely you have done a fair amount yourself. :scrutiny:

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 08:27 PM
Again, Alex, tell us how many holsters you have hand stitched? Are you even able to construct anything out of leather without the dies, presses and machines? For you to make such general statements about the inferiority of hand work, surely you have done a fair amount yourself. :scrutiny:

I have done patterns and hand work before High noon was able to afford the bells and whistles.

Craig you know the only way to start a new design is make a pattern and then hand cut the holster. I know you know that? I hope you do. Yours posts are misleading at best. Of course we, High Noon and I have to work without dies and presses for new designs.

I never said hand was inferior. Your words not mine. I was talking about the benefits of machine work over hand work.

Leather working forums will have there views on stitching also. The bottom line is that one develops a manufacturing process based on what he is making and what's available to him in the way of tools. I talk to Red Nichols all the time and we all do things different.

Alex

Sam1911
November 15, 2013, 08:30 PM
That's interesting coming from a moderator and unexpected. Rude and obnoxious would be something else that comes to mind. In 17 years on forums that has not happened from someone who is a "moderator". Really? Well gosh. And I'm usually the nice one! :o

I did not mean to be rude in any way. I offered honest advice. Postings like this are permanent. They really don't get erased so this is entirely the face you're showing the world, for good. If you've been on other forums for 17 years, I sincerely and in friendship hope that all those other public interactions push the balance far in the other direction and that folks won't be too badly swayed by what they've read here.

I am not a CS or marketing rep. I am in the factory, always. I happened to set up all of our sewing machines from an Adler to a Juki to a Campbell (needle/awl setup).Ok, thank you for answering that. I do appreciate it. From the way you spoke it kind of seemed like you might be more on the front office side and less involved in the actual process. I was mistaken and I apologize.

A sewing machine can be adjusted to throw any stitch length you want. Etc.:D Yes, yes, good heavens. I've used sewing machines before. I understand passing well how they work. They are not de facto ANY more "accurate" than hand stitched anything.

Sam, please take a bit more time in formulating your responses. This is your reputation you're holding up to light and you are a moderator, one who represents the forum?Yes. And I'll speak honestly and plainly, and while showing you no discourtesy.

Why do you think Red has aligned himself with us? He could pick anyone in the industry. Just a little more food for thought Sam.There might be many names that could be placed in the list of "the greatest holster makers" and Mr. Nichols may deserve to be on that list. Why exactly he chose to associate with you you haven't said and I can't speculate. Will he speak to the current question? Is this holster in question representative of his level of work? Does he stand behind it?

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 08:55 PM
Craig you know the only way to start a new design is make a pattern and then hand cut the holster. I know you know that? I hope you do. Yours posts are misleading at best. Of course we, High Noon and I have to work without dies and presses for new designs.
I know but I have no idea of what your experience and expertise REALLY is. All I have are the words on the screen and some very unflattering pictures of your company's work. Fact is, you have not done much hand work. You do not know how hand stitching compares to machine stitching and all your thrice-quoted statements about hand stitching are incorrect.


I never said hand was inferior.
Really???
Its very hard to do that by hand on a consistent basis on a large number of holsters, more then 2.

Also, sewing machine thread tension can be tightened or loosened to affect the needle's thread or the bobbin's thread. It's very difficult to control this by hand stitching, from my experience you get some stitches that look OK but are really loose. The machines thread tension is way more consistent than by hand stitching.

Try taking a hand stitched product apart and then a machine stitched product apart. Only then you will understand what I am saying. Machine is a stronger more consistent stitch.
This is the third time I've quoted this. If that doesn't state that hand stitching is inferior, I don't know how it could be any more clear.

rcmodel
November 15, 2013, 09:19 PM
That HN holster is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

So I will let CraigC do it.
He is doing a dang good job so far!

I used to make a lot of holsters & knife sheaths, hand stitched and all.

And I would never ever on a really bad day let something like that High Noon get past my scrap leather junque box!!!

The stitching is not tight, the sight protector is Way off-center, much further then normal leather stretch could ever account for.

And it just plain does not look like a hand-stitched or machine-sewn custom holster in any regard at all.

I would have been ashamed to sell something like that to a customer, or even give it away with my name on it!!

Why don't you just chalk it up to a factory workers Monday morning mistake, and send the guy another holster that is made like a custom holster should be made??

rc

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 09:23 PM
Really? Well gosh. And I'm usually the nice one! :o

I did not mean to be rude in any way. I offered honest advice. Postings like this are permanent. They really don't get erased so this is entirely the face you're showing the world, for good. If you've been on other forums for 17 years, I sincerely and in friendship hope that all those other public interactions push the balance far in the other direction and that folks won't be too badly swayed by what they've read here.

Ok, thank you for answering that. I do appreciate it. From the way you spoke it kind of seemed like you might be more on the front office side and less involved in the actual process. I was mistaken and I apologize.

:D Yes, yes, good heavens. I've used sewing machines before. I understand passing well how they work. They are not de facto ANY more "accurate" than hand stitched anything.

Yes. And I'll speak honestly and plainly, and while showing you no discourtesy.

There might be many names that could be placed in the list of "the greatest holster makers" and Mr. Nichols may deserve to be on that list. Why exactly he chose to associate with you you haven't said and I can't speculate. Will he speak to the current question? Is this holster in question representative of his level of work? Does he stand behind it?

No problem, we most likely took that all wrong.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 09:30 PM
I know but I have no idea of what your experience and expertise REALLY is. All I have are the words on the screen and some very unflattering pictures of your company's work. Fact is, you have not done much hand work. You do not know how hand stitching compares to machine stitching and all your thrice-quoted statements about hand stitching are incorrect.



Really???

This is the third time I've quoted this. If that doesn't state that hand stitching is inferior, I don't know how it could be any more clear.

As I said before, I think we should talk about 9mm vs 45 we will make progress, LOL. My words on the screen are knowledgeable and my experience in the industry is vast.

Alex

CraigC
November 15, 2013, 09:34 PM
So I will let CraigC do it.
He is doing a dang good job so far!
Thank you!!!


My words on the screen are knowledgeable and my experience in the industry is vast.
Your holster looks cheap and your words about hand stitching are wrong.

rcmodel
November 15, 2013, 09:34 PM
my experience in the industry is vast.Well, your experience with customer relations, sales, and advertising must not be nearly as vast as your expertise with hand stitching.

BTW: You are aware that vast exposure to leather dye fumes is bad.
Mkayyyy?

rc

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 10:58 PM
That HN holster is so wrong, I don't know where to start.

So I will let CraigC do it.
He is doing a dang good job so far!

I used to make a lot of holsters & knife sheaths, hand stitched and all.

And I would never ever on a really bad day let something like that High Noon get past my scrap leather junque box!!!

The stitching is not tight, the sight protector is Way off-center, much further then normal leather stretch could ever account for.

And it just plain does not look like a hand-stitched or machine-sewn custom holster in any regard at all.

I would have been ashamed to sell something like that to a customer, or even give it away with my name on it!!

Why don't you just chalk it up to a factory workers Monday morning mistake, and send the guy another holster that is made like a custom holster should be made??

rc

We did offer him an upgrade on us a day or so ago. Had he got the email this thread would not be here.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 15, 2013, 11:10 PM
Your holster looks cheap and your words about hand stitching are wrong.


Some advice if you are teachable at all. Never get involved with another makers work, leave that for the customers and the maker to solve. You are out of line and it makes you look like an amateur, but then again you don't really have manors or even know the industry very well.

We understand you do everything by hand and will defend hand stitching to the end. We were not knocking your business at all, I think that's the way you took it.

Over 9,000 posts............... lots of free time, I would like to see you make more holsters, but that post count says it all.

Alex

rcmodel
November 15, 2013, 11:43 PM
Over 9,000 posts............... lots of free time,Ohhh!

That's not a very High Road thing to say for a guy with 35 posts!!

Some of us do have very high post counts.

Some of us have time on our hands we have no control over due to age, family issues, or sickness you have no knowledge of.

I can assure you sir, some of us wish we didn't have all that time on our hands, and could do something else like go shooting, or make knives again, or do leatherwork again!

All you are doing now is digging a deeper hole for yourself and your company with some of us.

rc

YourAlterEgo
November 16, 2013, 12:10 AM
"We did offer him an upgrade on us a day or so ago. Had he got the email this thread would not be here. "

Thanks for the how to properly post comment earlier. I do not believe you have ever emailed me anything other that what I have posted. Please post the email if I am mistaken. I have have had 1 email in about 20 years that supposedly showed up late (to question my "internet" know how is.. I really did LOL). This thread would not be here if HNH would have at least ingauged me in some sort real of conversation about how to make this okay, instead of waving your hand like you are a Star Wars Jedi "There is no problem here".

Your arguing with more established members than me (as you pointed out), concerns me.

I don't need an upgrade to horse. What I was offered, via your website, I paid for and what I was willing/able to spend at the time of purchase.

I am very surprised you have not contacted me via email if you intentions are true. At this point, I'm.. nerves about what I may receive in return if I exchanged it.

Your last reply to me in this thread felt like an additional kick in the nuts.

I am not a High Noon Holster hater as you eluded to earlier.. Why would I fork over, over $100 in the hopes you would send me an off holster, just so I could ask if the people reading this would be okay with it?

High Noon Holsters
November 16, 2013, 12:36 AM
I am going to skip the bells and whistles again and fix the problem. As posted, I asked you to get a return number so we could get this going. Just email us.

The upgrade to horse is on us, its free.

Alex

armoredman
November 16, 2013, 12:36 AM
I apologize for not mentioning that the pictured sight track holster was a "factory second"- only way I
could get one on my paycheck! I'm happy with it, and it really shows little wear for as much as it is used.
I stand by what I have said, that I have had nothing but great products and service from
High Noon Holsters. I am no expert in anything, (just ask my wife! :-)), but every
rig I've received from them has always exceeded my expectations. I look forward to
a new rig from them soon.
Having said that, it behooves me to say to Craig, nice holster, sir.

High Noon Holsters
November 16, 2013, 12:41 AM
Ohhh!

That's not a very High Road thing to say for a guy with 35 posts!!

Some of us do have very high post counts.

Some of us have time on our hands we have no control over due to age, family issues, or sickness you have no knowledge of.

I can assure you sir, some of us wish we didn't have all that time on our hands, and could do something else like go shooting, or make knives again, or do leatherwork again!

All you are doing now is digging a deeper hole for yourself and your company with some of us.

rc
I was speaking to CraigC not everyone. The point being you are not a holster maker, if CraigC was busier, he would have no time to post. That's from one maker to another.

I did not say a high post count was bad, you took that the wrong way. In fact a high post count is good you enjoy the forum.

Alex

High Noon Holsters
November 16, 2013, 12:44 AM
I apologize for not mentioning that the pictured sight track holster was a "factory second"- only way I
could get one on my paycheck! I'm happy with it, and it really shows little wear for as much as it is used.
I stand by what I have said, that I have had nothing but great products and service from
High Noon Holsters. I am no expert in anything, (just ask my wife! :-)), but every
rig I've received from them has always exceeded my expectations. I look forward to
a new rig from them soon.
Having said that, it behooves me to say to Craig, nice holster, sir.

Yes there we go, we have our answer, we do sell proto types and seconds. Close outs are up there now http://www.highnoonholsters.com/Close_Outs/close_outs.html

Alex

Rule3
November 16, 2013, 01:28 AM
I am going to skip the bells and whistles again and fix the problem. As posted, I asked you to get a return number so we could get this going. Just email us.

The upgrade to horse is on us, its free.

Alex

Well there you go, that is all the Company can do. Sounds like a fine solution and an end to the whole long drawn out discussion. Should have been a lot sooner (Maybe it was with the "lost e mail", only the OP knows)

Just think of how many holsters could have been made or corrected the OP's holster in the time spent on all the posting.;)

9mmepiphany
November 16, 2013, 02:04 AM
I think we've come to the end of this discussion.

OP had a concern, the manufacturer has offered to address it

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