NFA machine pistols and CCW


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stressed
November 18, 2013, 11:11 PM
Obviously there were some automatic pistols produced, tech9, MAC10, Micro Uzi, 93R, G18, etc.

Question being, can these be carried concealed or open with a valid CCW or in the states that do not require so? They are classified as "handguns".

The question is hypothetical. Open discussion. We already discussed the byprocuct of having to use an NFA item for self defence in the other thread.

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Sam1911
November 18, 2013, 11:55 PM
All up to state law. If no prohibition against automatic weapons being carried, then sure.

As far as being "classified" -- they are all Machine Guns under federal law. So the fact that they are shaped (well, sort of, some of them) like regular GCA or Title I handguns really doesn't matter.

wideym
November 19, 2013, 01:07 AM
Arkansas state law prohibits NFA as a concealed carry gun specificily. I would tend to agree with it as I wouldn't want someone using a Glock 18 in a public area. If you have ever fired one you would know that it just a bullet hose.

However the law states that you may conceal carry any legal handgun, which means an AK or AR pistol is fine if you can conceal it. Again, not the best option for a self defence handgun in a public area.

AlexanderA
November 19, 2013, 10:47 AM
You'd run into problems if you were in one of the seven states that have adopted the Uniform Machine Gun Act (Maryland, Virginia, Connecticut, South Dakota, Montana, Arkansas, and Wisconsin).

TRX
November 20, 2013, 06:52 PM
My Arkansas CHCL says "pistol." Arkansas defines "machine guns" separately; back in 1986 when I got my MAC-11, I had to register it with the Secretary of State's office, which at the time required state registration of machine guns that fired pistol ammunition. I have no idea if that's still a requirement.

Since the state differentiates between "pistol" and "machine gun", I don't think the CHCL is good for Mad MAC.

Nuclear
November 25, 2013, 12:39 AM
Last time I checked, in Arizona it is legal to carry any gun that it is legal for you to own.

Doesn't mean it is a good idea, but it is legal.

Carl N. Brown
November 25, 2013, 03:16 AM
I have read an article by GEM on mock juries ruling on same hypothetical "bad shoot" by home owner with six weapons up to AR15 judged by juries selected from law college students, and bad shoots by cop (all details equal but male cop with Glock, male cop with AR, female cop with Glock, female cop with AR) judged by jury selected from cops with shooting experience. My impression: I would not want to face a jury on a bad shoot with a NFA pistol.

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/09/will-it-hurt-me-in-court-weapons-issues-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
Meyer, G. E., (2009). Will it hurt me in court: weapons issues and the fears of the legally armed citizen. The Jury Expert, American Society of Trial Consultants, vol 21 no 5, Sept 2009, p 29-42.
Based on Meyer, G.E., Banos, A.S., Gerondale, T., Kiriazes, K., Lanklin C.M. & Rinker, A.C. (2009). "Juries, Gender, and Assault Weapons", Journal of Applied Social Pscychology, 39, 945-972.

hentown
November 25, 2013, 12:00 PM
I don't want to face a jury with a bad shoot with any weapon. How would one go about concealing a MAC? They're pretty bulky and heavy.

I don't find the G18 to be a "bullet hose." Anybody who's spent a little time with them can easily fire accurate, controlled bursts. I personally wouldn't carry a G18, even if I had one and could carry it legally...not because of legal ramifications, but because I just don't think they'd be my best choice for a concealed carry pistol.

HexHead
November 25, 2013, 01:45 PM
Glock 18 is select fire. With the happy switch turned off, it's just like a Glock 17. It would be prudent to carry it that way.

Prince Yamato
November 25, 2013, 04:36 PM
It's by state. So in my state (Texas) I could carry a Glock 18. Though, I'd much rather carry a G26 with an aftermarket selector if I could.

Bullet hose... blah, blah...

If you've ever shot a full-auto Glock, you'd know that they are perfectly controllable.

jerkface11
November 25, 2013, 05:27 PM
Glock 18 is select fire.

Not a single one is transferable though. So you'd have bigger problems.

EmGeeGeorge
November 25, 2013, 05:50 PM
If I am reading it correctly, remember to that there is a federal enhancement for commission of a felony with a machine gun; so that questionable shooting(even with a legally possessed NFA machine gun) that ends up with a manslaughter conviction could technically put you looking at lotsa extra time in the fed pen.

Jim Watson
November 25, 2013, 08:17 PM
M. Ayoob described two cases of self defense with full autos.
Both were "good shoots" by the usual standards. One was no problem, the other caused a lot of hassle over the weapon used.
How many cases are there to review? Not many.

zoom6zoom
November 25, 2013, 09:00 PM
If you had a weapon seized as evidence after a shoot, would you rather it be a fairly easily replaceable pistol, or an extremely expensive NFA?

justashooter in pa
November 26, 2013, 12:45 AM
as Sam remarked, it usually depends on state law. in Penna NFA CCW is not prohibited. this applies to SBS and SBR, as well. some folks are using this logic to carry loaded SBR in cars.

TRX
November 26, 2013, 03:50 AM
>concealable

My Ingram M11A1 is no larger than some modern double-stack pistols, at least with the short 16-round mag inserted. The standard 32-round mag is definitely awkward to hide, though.

One of the reasons I bought the M11 instead of the M11/9 or M10 was that the M11 will drop into an ordinary coat pocket.


>Glock... perfectly controllable

With the selector set to "FULL", shooting my M11 is similar to holding an angry cat by the scruff of the neck.

jmorris
November 26, 2013, 09:48 AM
Question being, can these be carried concealed or open with a valid CCW or in the states that do not require so? They are classified as "handguns".



On a form 4 they are classified as "machine gun" on type of firearm. If my Mac was not a machine gun it would be an SBR because it has a stock, like all of the FA Macs.

SharpsDressedMan
November 26, 2013, 04:40 PM
Ohio prohibits what they refer to and define as "dangerous ordnance", basically prohibiting suppressors or machineguns.

hentown
November 27, 2013, 04:04 PM
Several years ago, My 2nd gen G17 thought it was a G18 for a couple of weeks. Didn't take me too long to learn how to control the bursts. Got rid of the guilty trigger bar and it no longer thought it was a G18. ;)

I won't be using a machine gun for s.d. purposes, but do plan on using a suppressed G17 as my nightstand gun. I trust my opinion and my legal advisors a lot more than I'd trust a non-legally-trained gunrag-writer/seminar-giver. ;)

pjeski
December 5, 2013, 06:03 PM
M. Ayoob described two cases of self defense with full autos.
Both were "good shoots" by the usual standards. One was no problem, the other caused a lot of hassle over the weapon used.
How many cases are there to review? Not many.
This is the one I've read:
http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident

I'd be interested in reading about the "no problem" one.

PBR Streetgang
December 5, 2013, 10:36 PM
The tech-9 was a closed bolt ,semi-auto pistol. It was never produced in a full auto version. Some illegal conversions were done using Interdynamic KG-9 Open style bolts.

Jim Watson
December 6, 2013, 12:38 AM
pjeski,

Ref the Beckwith case.

http://gunowners.org/op0730.htm

He didn't actually shoot anybody with his full auto, he got his man with a semi.

Jim K
December 6, 2013, 01:23 AM
The problem is that a prosecutor (or the plaintiff's attorney in a civil case) will try to make the weapon the issue in the case instead of the circumstances, and unless the judge is on the ball (and unbiased himself) might get away with it.

Jim

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