Missing Primers After Firing 9mm Reloads


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mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 02:10 AM
Howdy, I am new to reloading and have only loaded up a few batches of 9mm. I shot about 200 rounds at a steel shoot this evening and noticed that a few of my empties were missing primers. All of the rounds fed, fired, and ejected without issue. Recoil was not bad, nor did the rounds seem louder than usual.

I have found information online stating that some people have had federal brass have loose primer pockets which could cause this. I have also seen others state that missing primers can be a sign of high pressure.

What do you think? Am I likely loading too hot? Is it something else?

I am loading 115gr Berry's Plated bullets, in .FC. once fired brass, with 4.4gr of tite group, OAL all between 1.150 and 1.158. I tested loads at 4.0gr and the brass was ejecting right into my face. The 4.4gr feels good, but I want to make sure I am loading safely.

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sexybeast
November 20, 2013, 02:32 AM
Sounds like you are doing everything right. 4.4gr of titegroup is a little hot but not more than max. If the pressure was way too high the primers would be flat and some of the primers would be punctured.
I've never had any primers fall out of the pocket after shooting the cartridge.
Maybe there is a batch of cases with very loose pockets.
Hope others can help, I load and shoot 300-400 9mm and 40 rounds per week. I'm not a novice at this.

1SOW
November 20, 2013, 03:55 AM
Which primers?

It's possible to pick up brass with a loose primer hole, but not so likely with several at the same time.

I've been shooting over 10K 9mm/yr for quite a while and have had ONE primer fall out as I was handling the fired cartridge case in my case bag.

noylj
November 20, 2013, 06:58 AM
If a primer falls out, the case is trash. Dispose of them. Cases are too cheap and safety too important.
In 40 years of shooting 9x19, I have NEVER had a primer fall out.
Cases may not have been hardened enough at the case head, so cases are weak and too malleable.

Thompsoncustom
November 20, 2013, 07:53 AM
Hmm my first thought is your pressures are to low and the primers aren't sealing but I ran your data through Quickload and if your throwing a 4.4 charge than you should be right where you want to be.

Walkalong
November 20, 2013, 08:42 AM
The cases are trash.

Assuming they were good cases that had not been over stressed previously by over pressure loads, then that load is over pressure. Did the primers seat normally?

I have never had a primer come out of a 9MM case, not even with a couple of loads that were borderline.

243winxb
November 20, 2013, 09:13 AM
Hodgdon 115 GR. LRN Hodgdon Titegroup .356" 1.100" 3.9 1075 25,800 CUP 4.3gr. Maximum 1151 30,500 CUP Berry's Plated Bullets FAQ We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data. Make sure data is below 1250fps unless you are using a Thick-Plated bullet that we list a higher max velocity for like the 9mm 124gr HBRN-TP that can be shot to 1500fps in open class guns like a .38 Super. Keep in mind that since our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 11:22 AM
Thanks for all the help.

1. Berry's load data: I know the LRN max is 4.3gr, but Berry's does say its fine to use mid-range jacketed data. I couldn't find any FMJ data, but my Lee manual and Hodgdon site list 115 GR. SPR GDHP with a min of 4.5gr and a max of 4.8.

4.4gr seems like it should be very reasonable based on that data. Am I wrong to use the SPR GDHP as my "jacketed data?"

2. I am still having a tough time recognizing pressure signs like flattened primers. The pictures in my Lee manual aren't great and I guess I just need more practice. This afternoon I'll snap a pic of some of my other empties from this batch to make sure none of you spot any pressure signs.

3. Is it possible that I am not seating the primers with enough force or not seating them deep enough?

4. Anybody have instructions on how I can get my Lee Pro Auto Disk to throw 4.2gr of Titegroup? Right now I am stuck with 4.0gr or 4.4

Jim Watson
November 20, 2013, 11:29 AM
If you are dropping primers, that IS a "pressure sign" and a severe one.
What headstamp on the brass? I found a .45 of the sorry A-MERC brass that had slipped through with the primer fallen out, no shooting required.

You can adjust the Lee disk cavities with a file or epoxy, up or down, to get the load you want. I'd try some at 4.0 first, though.

jwrowland77
November 20, 2013, 11:30 AM
Not that anything is wrong with your 4.4gr of TG, but I use 4.0 for my FMJ, and it's a very nice shooting load, and very accurate load.

When using load data, you really want to use loads for bullets with the same profile as the one your using. So if you're using a Berrys RN, and can't find specific load data for Berrys 115gr RN, you'll want to pick another bullet profile with a RN in the 115gr.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 11:40 AM
Headstamp is ".FC."

I tried 4.0gr loads and the brass was ejecting directly into my face.

Have people been successful using the epoxy/file method? I'm worried about a rougher surface after tampering leading to inconsistent drops.

I am shooting these loads in a stock Glock 19, by the way.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 11:44 AM
jwrowland77, are your 4.0gr FMJ loads using 115gr bullets? What type of firearm are you shooting them through?

4.0gr on the Berry's in my Glock didn't seem to have quite enough oomph to eject the brass away from my face. It did cycle the action, and was definitely a very mild smooth shooting load.

dprice3844444
November 20, 2013, 12:06 PM
dillon makes a primer pocket swager that might help restore the pocket to original demensions. adding a primer sealer after swaging to seal the primer in might also help retain primers. just a thought

sexybeast
November 20, 2013, 12:29 PM
The primer is more likely to fall out before shooting it than after shooting it. The case rear and primer gets compressed against the breech when firing and should be tighter.
Just out of curiosity you should check out the breech face of you slide. Where the firing pin comes out and strikes the primer, is it "dished" or concave? I've heard it happening on open class guns that are shot with lots of very high pressures rounds before. Unlikly with you being a new reloader or the gun being shot with regular ammo.
I've reloaded thousands of Federal 9mm, never had a problem with it and kinda prefer it to the Nato headstamped Winchester floating around.
What primers are you using?
As a side note 4.4gr of titegroup is slightly above max with lead but plated can be safely pushed a little harder. A friend uses that load in his M&P with Berrys and the accuracy results are not that good. He gets some eratic patterns. I would back off to around 4.0. As long as the cases are ejecting and the slide locks back after the last round you are good.

Rule3
November 20, 2013, 12:32 PM
How many times have the cases been reloaded. No I do not keep an exact count of my 9mm brass , maybe I should, but approximately.

Are they really old and used many many times?

Try some new or once fired brass and see if the problem continues.

I would blame the Glock and throw that away:D

Jesse Heywood
November 20, 2013, 12:42 PM
Try this. Take one of the cases that lost a primer. Try inserting a new primer with your fingers. If the primer goes in, the pocket is too big. If the primer won't go in, use your priming tool and seat a primer in the suspect case and a primer in a case that didn't lose a primer. Is there a big difference in the pressure required?

Jesse Heywood
November 20, 2013, 12:49 PM
Here are primers fired in a Glock. Thanks to BDS.
Normal Glock striker indents in the front and light striker indent in the back (all primers ignited)
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=140315&stc=1&d=1302573648

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 01:01 PM
Thanks for the ideas. I will report back after work.

Merle1
November 20, 2013, 01:05 PM
Howdy, I am new to reloading and have only loaded up a few batches of 9mm. I shot about 200 rounds at a steel shoot this evening and noticed that a few of my empties were missing primers. All of the rounds fed, fired, and ejected without issue. Recoil was not bad, nor did the rounds seem louder than usual.

I have found information online stating that some people have had federal brass have loose primer pockets which could cause this. I have also seen others state that missing primers can be a sign of high pressure.

What do you think? Am I likely loading too hot? Is it something else?

I am loading 115gr Berry's Plated bullets, in .FC. once fired brass, with 4.4gr of tite group, OAL all between 1.150 and 1.158. I tested loads at 4.0gr and the brass was ejecting right into my face. The 4.4gr feels good, but I want to make sure I am loading safely.



What primer are you using? They could be undersized too. I use a Lee primer seating tool, so I would IMMEDIATELY notice any variation :cuss: in primer seating pressure.

Merle1
November 20, 2013, 01:08 PM
dillon makes a primer pocket swager that might help restore the pocket to original demensions. adding a primer sealer after swaging to seal the primer in might also help retain primers. just a thought



Swaging won't shrink the pocket, but it might help get it back to being round.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 01:40 PM
CCI small pistol primers.

Merle1
November 20, 2013, 01:50 PM
I wondered if perhaps the were one of the imports.
Have you miked them so see if they are proper diameter? Mistakes happen. :uhoh:
Did you try to hand seat a primer as suggested above?

Master Blaster
November 20, 2013, 02:16 PM
Anybody have instructions on how I can get my Lee Pro Auto Disk to throw 4.2gr of Titegroup? Right now I am stuck with 4.0gr or 4.4

Probably a silly question, but did you Weigh the charges your lee powder measure is throwing on a Scale or are you assuming they weigh 4.4 gr because that is what the cavity size should be throwing???

sexybeast
November 20, 2013, 02:40 PM
That is also what I use and unless you want to alter/modify one of the discs I would say no you can't. There is an adjustable contraption Lee makes for the powder disc measure but I have had mixed results with it. With Titegroup you may just get it to work.

rcmodel
November 20, 2013, 02:52 PM
I didn't see anyone mention it yet, but?

This could be high pressure caused by bullet setback during feeding on the ones that dropped the primers.

Make sure your case neck tension is as it should be.

Make sure your expander isn't any larger then .352" or so.

Make sure your taper crimp is no smaller then .376" when measured at the case mouth.

Sized cases come out of my RCBS sizing die at .372" O.D. at the case mouth.
After expanding they are still .372".
My expander measures .350" and actually doesn't expand at all.
It's just a guide for the belling portion of the expander.


You can test for set-back by marking a line with a Sharpie around the bullet case mouth joint and repeatedly chambering the same rounds several times.

If the Sharpie mark goes inside the case?
You are getting set-back during feeding to some degree, which will raise pressure considerably if the seating OAL goes far enough south on you.

rc

BSA1
November 20, 2013, 03:03 PM
The O.P. does not state the brand(s) of brass he is using, whether new or used, if used the source of the brass and number of times reloaded. This is one of the reasons I avoid buying used, mixed head stamped range pick-ups. Ditto post #6. Trash the old stuff and try quality new brass.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 03:18 PM
Using . FC. Brass, once fired. I bought factory rounds, fired them and saved my brass. I have not tried some of these suggestions yet because I am at work. Thanks hanks again for all the help.

longdayjake
November 20, 2013, 03:50 PM
Also, if you are one who was duped into using the lee factory crimp die, you might be resizing your bullets.

Merle1
November 20, 2013, 03:53 PM
Very good advice!

Rule3
November 20, 2013, 03:58 PM
Using . FC. Brass, once fired. I bought factory rounds, fired them and saved my brass. I have not tried some of these suggestions yet because I am at work. Thanks hanks again for all the help.

^^^ This will help narrow down one of the probable causes.

If they work with all other variables the same you can pretty much bet it's the brass. If the once fired brass does it also then time to work on another solution,

Narrow them down one at a time.

cfullgraf
November 20, 2013, 04:06 PM
Is it something else?


Not yet asked, and maybe an obvious answer but you know what they say about "assume".

Are you using a primer pocket uniformer or aggressively cleaning the primer pockets? If so, you could be causing the problem by removing too much brass in the primer pocket.

Many folks never bother cleaning the primer pockets, especially handgun.

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 05:21 PM
I have not cleaned the primer pockets at all. I tumbled the spent brass in corn cob media and then decapped at the first stage of my Lee turret, while resizing.

Also, I fired almost 200 of these same loads, and it looks like only four or five experienced the missing primer.

Potatohead
November 20, 2013, 05:32 PM
The contraption Sexy Beast is referring to is the Lee adjustable charge bar methinks. And my success has been mixed with it also. Its cheap, I would try it if I were you.
FYI Ive had good success altering my Discs with a dremel and/or file. Im about to buy a set that will just be used as "altered" discs, Ive gotten into the habit of hacking into them pretty frequently now:)

mudmanfloyd
November 20, 2013, 05:41 PM
Potatohead,

Where do you purchase spare discs? Do you just pick hole that throws a little less then you want and file lightly around the perimeter of the hole?

Potatohead
November 20, 2013, 06:11 PM
I returned your PM. I would add, try the charge bar. Ive got mine working good with Zip now. If TiteGroup is similar to Zip/hp38 itll work nicely. It works better with some powders than others. (And small charges can be troublesome)

Potatohead
November 20, 2013, 06:31 PM
Disclaimer: im a noob too. Maybe an intermediate noob, but a noob nonetheless

mstreddy
November 20, 2013, 10:57 PM
OP, I recently shot some commercial reloads using Ammoload brass where the primers fell out on firing on at least 3 cases as well. I don't know any data on how they were loaded, but it does happen.
In your case, -- check out some of the tips given above as to the feel of the seating of the primers. The tip on trying by hand is sound.
Bad brass happens - even from reputable makers. Also, give a good look at your pistol and see if any of those primers or parts are somewhere in the frame. I've had primers fall out and jam the AR Bolt Carrier Group. I've seen them get stuck in the actions of AKs as well. So, I guess you can say that it does happen and just be aware of the process and the steps along the way.

mudmanfloyd
November 21, 2013, 01:53 AM
Tried priming by hand on the empties that had dropped primers. I was barely able to get it started in the primer pocket. I tried the same thing with some other once fired brass and had the same result. So, I don't think the primer pockets were too loose.

I opened up one of the holes on my auto disk and got it to throw 4.2gr of TG. Loaded up 25 rounds and I am gonna go see how those shoot.

Thanks for all the tips.

rskent
November 21, 2013, 06:10 AM
Make sure your taper crimp is no smaller then .376" when measured at the case mouth.

I think this is the golden nugget of this thread.

Its pretty easy to over crimp a tapered cartridge. Don't ask how I know that.

gamestalker
November 22, 2013, 12:08 PM
This is something that has never happened to me with any firearm, much less and AL. I've seen a couple reloaders with primers falling out of their high powered rifle cartridges after firing before, but never 9mm or any other AL handgun cartridge.

My first thought would be a high pressure issue. In this respect, I think RC is onto something with set back possible causing pressures to spike. Speer did some testing years ago, in which they deliberately set a bullet back .030" on a load tested at 28,000, the result was pressures more than doubled to 62,000 cup.

GS

243winxb
November 22, 2013, 12:59 PM
it looks like only four or five experienced the missing primer. Tried priming by hand on the empties that had dropped primers. I was barely able to get it started in the primer pocket. Makes no sense that the primer fell out, but the pocket is still tight?? As far as over pressure, is bridging possible using your tool/powder? Could one case get 3 gr of powder & the next gets the extra powder, total of 5.8gr? RC might have it, bullet set back on chambering.

Merle1
November 22, 2013, 01:00 PM
This is something that has never happened to me with any firearm, much less and AL. I've seen a couple reloaders with primers falling out of their high powered rifle cartridges after firing before, but never 9mm or any other AL handgun cartridge.

My first thought would be a high pressure issue. In this respect, I think RC is onto something with set back possible causing pressures to spike. Speer did some testing years ago, in which they deliberately set a bullet back .030" on a load tested at 28,000, the result was pressures more than doubled to 62,000 cup.

GS



What do you mean by "AL" ? :confused:

Merle1
November 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
Makes no sense that the primer fell out, but the pocket is still tight?? As far as over pressure, is bridging possible using your tool/powder? Could one case get 3 gr of powder & the next gets the extra powder, total of 5.8gr? RC might have it, bullet set back on chambering.



What that implies to me, as illogical as it seems, is that the primers were undersized. :scrutiny:

Potatohead
November 22, 2013, 01:15 PM
Make sure your taper crimp is no smaller then .376" when measured at the case mouth.

how bout .3755? i end up there a lot...

243winxb
November 22, 2013, 02:01 PM
What that implies to me, as illogical as it seems, is that the primers were undersized. Now this makes sense, undersize primers.

LeftyTSGC
November 22, 2013, 02:55 PM
I dont know if i follow the logic of no less than .376;:scrutiny:

9mm boolit .355

average case wall thickness at mouth .010

.355 + .010 + .010 = .375 +/- your actual wall thickness. Most of mine turn out at .374 after 4000 9mm reloads I have never had a problem:banghead:

SAAMI max is .380, i dont think i ever had one that large, now I only reload FMJ from MG, no lead or plated so there may be a variance there.

I guess it depends on your specific handgun and its tolerances.

Also, i have (knock on wood) never had a primer fall out.

mstreddy
November 22, 2013, 09:12 PM
Merle -- AL is auto-loader as in semi auto pistols in this context.

rcmodel
November 22, 2013, 09:21 PM
Now this makes sense, undersize primers. No SM Pistol primer is going to remain undersize after getting kicked in the shorts with 35,000 PSI pressure and expanding to fit whatever primer pocket it happened to be seated in without falling out before being fired.

Unless the case head flows due to excess pressure and the primer cup expansion can't keep up with it fast enough.

rc

mtrmn
November 23, 2013, 07:03 PM
I don't know about pistol brass, but I've thrown away a LOT of FC rifle brass due to the primer pocket being too large-after only the 1 firing of the factory load.

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