Carry Gun Paradigm Shift


PDA






doc540
November 24, 2013, 10:12 AM
cliffs:
XDS in .45 ACP sold after getting it back from the recall (serious trigger issues)

carried the custom Colt CCO for two months - 8 rounds of .45 ACP

One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber. (And I've been a .45 ACP guy.)

Now I am carrying an ugly, sunrise-dependable Gen3, Glock 19.

16 rounds of Barnes all-copper 9mm.

25 cent trigger job = smooth, 5 lb trigger

finis

If you enjoyed reading about "Carry Gun Paradigm Shift" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
sig228
November 24, 2013, 10:23 AM
Glock 19...ugly is in the eyes of the beholder... Personally, I don't see ugly. I see functional and reliable and effective.

doc540
November 24, 2013, 10:26 AM
compared to my custom CCO, it looks like Nancy Pelosi

wait, I take that back :o

Queen_of_Thunder
November 24, 2013, 10:39 AM
A post bordering on starting a caliber war.

doc540
November 24, 2013, 10:40 AM
post focus: shot placement is King

can't control what other direction it might take :)

sig228
November 24, 2013, 10:41 AM
compared to my custom CCO, it looks like Nancy Pelosi

wait, I take that back :o
Thanks, that image in my mind just ruined my day....

CDW4ME
November 24, 2013, 10:43 AM
I have 1911's in 45 acp but nearly always carry a Glock 23/32 or 27/33 depending on attire

I like a big 45 bullet, but I can appreciate the benefit of having additional rounds at my disposal.
7 + 1 of 45 acp 230 gr.
VS
13 + 1 of 40 S&W 180 gr.
(extra magazine with either)

Also, since I carry the compact model 27 sometimes there is no difference in shooting by going with the larger 23; if I chose the 1911 I would introduce another variable- a safety that must be manually disengaged.

mtrmn
November 24, 2013, 10:44 AM
Somebody on one of these forums said that 1911's are the guns you show your friends. Glocks are the guns you show your enemies.

I carry a 1st gen Glock 19 and have for like the last 15 yrs or so. My reloads with Speer 124gr Gold Dots.

doc540
November 24, 2013, 10:47 AM
Not trying to start a pro/anti 1911 war.

Just saying I decided to go with 16 rounds of 9mm (and a 15 round extra mag) and plan on shooting as accurately as I can shoot my 1911 in .45 ACP.

just one man's choice

Hometeached1
November 24, 2013, 10:51 AM
That's funny, I started out with a glock 19, and now I carry a glock 30sf, granted one of the main reasons I got the 30 incase JHPs don't open up with winter clothing. Still like my 19, might carry it in the summer when people have less clothing on. I still like as many rounds as I can have, yet still grip the pistol well. On a side note I have some four legged predictors out here in the sticks.

HexHead
November 24, 2013, 11:47 AM
I carry a 1st gen Glock 19 and have for like the last 15 yrs or so.

Are the front and back straps serrated or smooth? If serrated it's a Gen2 Glock.

They made a very small run of 19s as a special order by a police department that were Gen1. They do occasionally show up on the market.

Tomac
November 24, 2013, 11:58 AM
All handguns are relatively poor "stoppers" regardless of caliber or bullet used. Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
That's why I carry a 15+1 SIG P2022 9mm.
Tomac

eldon519
November 24, 2013, 12:32 PM
I actually recently standardized my auto loaders on the 9mm Glocks for much the same reason as you. I've got a Glock 19 and Glock 26. I saw similar advice from prominent instructors and terminal ballistics authorities emphasizing shot placement and multiple hits to decisively neutralize threats, and for me 9mm is the best choice.

That said, I do still have some magnum and big bore revolvers for range fun.

armoredman
November 24, 2013, 12:37 PM
I can't stand Glocks...I'd rather be surrounded by pictures of all the Glock models ever made then have one picture of Ms Pelosi staring me in the face. Heck, if people will un-elect her, I'll BUY a Glock!

Back to the OP...*ahem*, I believe shot placement does matter, but the illogical extension of this is that everything should be a 22lr, because of very high mag capacity and very low recoil. I think 9mm works well for both shot placement and damage inflicted, with modern high quality self defense ammunition, but I also will never, ever give someone grief about carrying 45ACOP, 40SW, 357, 38 Special, etc., hey, it's what works for YOU.

doc540
November 24, 2013, 12:56 PM
agreed

just happen to have plenty of both of these on hand:

Caliber: 9mm Luger +P
Bullet Wt.: 115gr CORBON Self-Defense JHP
Velocity: 1350fps
Energy: 466ftlbs

and
all copper Barnes
Bullet Wt.: 115gr DPX
Velocity: 1250fps
Energy: 399ftlbs

chieftain
November 24, 2013, 01:25 PM
The only requirement in a serious fighting weapon is reliability. I agree most folks should not carry a 1911, because of the needed knowledge base, and time to maintain it. The good news is that today we have a large number of reliable handguns to choose from. Still tops in reliability is the quality revolver, bar none. But todays selection of pistols is quite broad. One can be picky but most of them are good.

Please do not confuse civilian/police durability with military reliability and durability. Two different ballparks when applied to small arms.

Caliber is simple. For semi-auto's it's either 9 or 45. Many folks I respect like the 40S&W but I have yet to see or hear of a reason for it's existance, over the 9 or 45. Knowledgeable quality bullet selection is what is important regardless of caliber.

I have used both the 45acp and 38spl (when I did my job, the caliber did it's job) in combat, and seen the 9mm in action in several of those same actions. They were all military in nature. The handgun was only used when my primary weapon went dry at a point that the Black hats didn't want to give me time to reload soon enough for me to prevent new entries in my Health Record Book. Needless to say I succeeded, they did not. Understand I felt that when ever I was using a handgun, I was just staying alive, I fight with a rifle.

Pick a good reliable weapon for your mission statement, LEARN IT! Not just to shoot it, learn how to maintain it to it's smallest component, change your springs and in some cases, pins on schedules, and keep to it. Clean it when you use it. Just like your vehicle, teeth and body. Exactly the same issues.

As a former Marine DI this isn't advice, it's gospel. Never saw a man die BECAUSE he cleaned and maintained HIS OWN weapon. I have seen several die and get wounded because they did not.

Unless your mission requires it, large number of bullets is rarely "required", but can't hurt within reason. Don't think of possibility, stick with probability. I could get over run by an armored company of North Koreans on the way to the supermarket, but most likely will not.

I am equally at home with a 6 shot revolver, which I carried for years as I did a 8 shot 1911, 13 shot SIG 228, or a 15 shot Walther PPQ or HK. Nothing wrong with any 9mm Glock, but I subjectively don't care for them. I recommend Glocks to many folks. Owned my first Glock back in the mid to late 80s. I don't care for many compact weapons either.

Go figure.

Fred

Old Dog
November 24, 2013, 02:42 PM
1911's are the guns you show your friends. Glocks are the guns you show your enemies.Meh. 1911s are for those who can master a more complicated platform, desire an accurate pistol with a superior trigger pull; Glocks are the guns the bean-counters can show to those who approve their budgets.

Not trying to start a pro/anti 1911 war.Oh. I understand, really (even though I'm at heart a 1911 guy). At any rate, I do believe we've spoken to this topic quite often, not long ago in this thread I brought up much the same concept:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=677106

mtrmn
November 24, 2013, 03:21 PM
Are the front and back straps serrated or smooth? If serrated it's a Gen2 Glock.

They made a very small run of 19s as a special order by a police department that were Gen1. They do occasionally show up on the market.
OK you busted me. Mine is serrated with little squares molded in the grip frame. But I have had this gun since our sheriffs dept first went to Glocks and I bought it from one of the deputies. My only defense is that I have NOT studied the history of these Glocks and their "generations"-I simply assumed that since the gun is so old (actually bought early 1990's but didn't start carrying til later) it had to be 1st gen. There is no rail or any other fancy stuff on it.

C0untZer0
November 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
I think the Barnes 9mm TAC-XPD comes up a little short in the penetration department.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7ZGKghQtw4

RBid
November 24, 2013, 09:50 PM
The only requirement in a serious fighting weapon is reliability.

STRONGLY disagree.

Reliability is priority number 1, but making a Kel Tec PF9 100% reliable would not make it a serious fighting weapon. Handling characteristics, sights, some ergonomic issues, etc can contribute to or take away from a weapon's efficacy as a "serious fighting weapon".

Handling characteristics are badly underrated.

ChCx2744
November 24, 2013, 10:05 PM
1911's are nice. The limited 8-round capacity (Regardless of how reliable .45ACP is) turns me off from wanting to carry it for any other reason but to show it off, though. If I want to carry seriously, I carry something else. If I want to show off a good-looking gun to friends, I might carry the 1911...And a long-gun in the trunk :)

Twiki357
November 24, 2013, 11:43 PM
Sorry.... I couldn't help myself. :D

primalmu
November 25, 2013, 12:08 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the 9mm is cheaper to shoot (even though I reload), so its easier to practice with and become proficient. It also allows for smaller guns like my Ruger LC9 that are easier to conceal (and therefore more likely to be carried). Plus, for the same size gun I get higher capacity (7 + 1 with an extra 7 round mag = 15 rounds). Those are a few reasons why I've stuck with 9mm.

I love the .45 ACP, though. Just not to carry on a day to day basis.

eldon519
November 25, 2013, 10:24 AM
My S&W 1911 was my first centerfire and is probably my single-most-fired weapon. It's got somewhere between 10k-15k rounds through it. Once I got my first Glock, it was an easy decision to put the S&W in the back of the safe. That might not be the choice for everyone, but I wouldn't say someone choosing a Glock over a 1911 has trouble mastering "a more complicated platform" or is focusing on finances when they do so. The cost of my 9mm and .45 reloaded rounds is identical no less.

g_one
November 25, 2013, 10:31 AM
Even though they're almost identical except for slide/grip length, I think the subcompact (G26 etc) models look great, while the full size and compact models are pretty ugly. For me it's about the proportion of slide length to grip length (the main reason I don't like mag bumper pads). The main reason I got rid of my G26 was that it was too wide for pocket carry.

Now my EDC is an LCP, but that's only because my job means I basically have to pocket carry rather than carry on my hip. I think my next purchase is going to be a 3" SP101 for those days when I can get away with carrying an IWB.

skoro
November 26, 2013, 09:58 AM
Not trying to start a pro/anti 1911 war.

I hear ya, doc.

Love my 1911s and really enjoy shooting them at the range. But I don't carry 'em. Everyone of us has to evaluate our situation and decide what fits us best for carry purposes.

Your choice of the Glock is definitely a good one and no doubt fits your needs. One of my brothers is a LEO and his department switched from Sig to Glock a year back. Although he always said good things about his Sig, he now tells me the Glock is even better.

Me?

I pocket carry almost exclusively and I'm not really concerned about having lots of rounds, but that's just my own personal opinion.

Go forth and prosper. :)

JDR
November 26, 2013, 11:44 AM
The positive reviews I'm reading on those CorBon and Black Hills factory 9mm plus P loads using the Barnes TAC-XP copper JHP bullets are making me believe that 9mm CCW is the way to go!

mavracer
November 26, 2013, 12:29 PM
The more I see civil unrest looming on the horizon the more I see the value of the capacity a 9mm allows.

orionengnr
November 26, 2013, 10:16 PM
One of my firearm mentors convinced me that shot placement trumps caliber.
No arguments here.
But I shoot a 1911 better than anything else.
So the "shot placement" argument works in favor of the 1911 for me...

doc540
November 26, 2013, 10:18 PM
"No arguments here.
But I shoot a 1911 better than anything else.
So the "shot placement" argument works in favor of the 1911 for me..."

Even with training, my performance in IDPA matches has convinced me to carry with more ammo. :o

Torian
November 26, 2013, 10:22 PM
I like my 10mm Underwood 125 Nosler Jacketed HPs running along at 1600FPS. The bullet practically explodes when it hits the target. Shooting watermelons is fun.

15 rounds of 10mm in my Elite Match leaves a smilke on my face.

doc540
November 28, 2013, 10:14 PM
first time to shoot it

ran 4 to 6 shot strings, very rapid fire just pointing (not aiming) at 10 yds

with practice this is gonna work just fine

Got the Dillon fired up after feasting today.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/4d806534-610b-4d5f-af2f-1ceca8229f1f_zps921c879a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Reloading/5debd5df-24df-48d6-bfb4-e046dc702fe7_zps75131894.jpg

Bobson
November 28, 2013, 10:18 PM
Glock 19...ugly is in the eyes of the beholder... Personally, I don't see ugly. I see functional and reliable and effective.
Agreed. Gen3 G19 is a beautiful firearm.

doc540
November 29, 2013, 06:19 PM
back again today

same drill

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Targets/04bc2ee9-5193-42d0-80e2-188705e66dab_zps043c600f.jpg

greenlion
November 30, 2013, 09:28 AM
Thats not a paradigm shift. Thats just trading out your carry gun for another. A lot of us do that every other week. A paradigm shift would be carrying a Lightsaber.

pittspilot
November 30, 2013, 08:39 PM
I've carried quite a few different guns. (XD9 Subcompact, HiPower, VBOB, M66 Smith & Wesson, Makarov, J Frames etc)

One day LGS had a few G19 Gen 3's that were PD trade ins. Decided to buy one as a truck gun. First time to the range revealed that the thing flat ran and that it fit me well. A few IDPA matches with it revealed that I was as quick and accurate with it as I am with a 1911. And, bonus, it carries like a dream. Easy to conceal and light. It's now my main carry gun, and I have a spare one that I bought to back it up.

So for me, it is the best carry solution, going away.

Sol
November 30, 2013, 09:14 PM
Penetration? Shot placement? Reliability? I think I can answer at least 2 of those, a quality magnum double action revolver with some training and quality ammo.
Magnum penetration.
Revolver reliability.
Training for shot placement.

doc540
December 1, 2013, 11:59 PM
"capacity"

I like having it now.

Shot the G19 for the third time today.

Same drill: rapid-fire, 5 shot strings at 10 and 5yds.

improving and confidence is growing

DammitBoy
December 2, 2013, 12:29 AM
I like capacity and .45

That's why I carry the Para P14

perpster
December 2, 2013, 02:06 AM
Many in recently-even-more-unfree states (for example: NY SAFE Act, CT new gun control laws, etc.) that have asinine limits on magazine capacity -- 10 round capacity in NY, and a limit of 7 rounds in that 10 round magazine, have started migrating to larger caliber handguns for concealed carry. A 1911 platform in .45 ACP, Glock 36 and/or the Springfield Armory XDS in .45 ACP come to mind. If you can't carry more than 7 (plus 1 in the chamber), might as well carry what will make the biggest hole to stop the threat as quickly and reliably as possible. Short barreled revolvers in .44 Magnum or .45 ACP aren't a bad choice either.

TarDevil
December 2, 2013, 03:58 PM
Choice of defensive weapon will always be a personal choice, and should represent the sum of all factors allowing said individual to deliver the maximum force required for successful defense, caliber alone is not enough. Factors I considered:

the most gun I could reasonably carry
combination of gun and caliber that provided controlable delivery
ability to maintain proficiency


Of course, the weapon should be reliable.

rskent
December 2, 2013, 04:14 PM
Seven seems like enough, sixteen should also be OK.
Whatever you feel comfortable with, works for me. :cool:

dehughes
December 2, 2013, 05:17 PM
The only requirement in a serious fighting weapon is reliability. I agree most folks should not carry a 1911, because of the needed knowledge base, and time to maintain it. The good news is that today we have a large number of reliable handguns to choose from. Still tops in reliability is the quality revolver, bar none. But todays selection of pistols is quite broad. One can be picky but most of them are good.

Please do not confuse civilian/police durability with military reliability and durability. Two different ballparks when applied to small arms.

Caliber is simple. For semi-auto's it's either 9 or 45. Many folks I respect like the 40S&W but I have yet to see or hear of a reason for it's existance, over the 9 or 45. Knowledgeable quality bullet selection is what is important regardless of caliber.

I have used both the 45acp and 38spl (when I did my job, the caliber did it's job) in combat, and seen the 9mm in action in several of those same actions. They were all military in nature. The handgun was only used when my primary weapon went dry at a point that the Black hats didn't want to give me time to reload soon enough for me to prevent new entries in my Health Record Book. Needless to say I succeeded, they did not. Understand I felt that when ever I was using a handgun, I was just staying alive, I fight with a rifle.

Pick a good reliable weapon for your mission statement, LEARN IT! Not just to shoot it, learn how to maintain it to it's smallest component, change your springs and in some cases, pins on schedules, and keep to it. Clean it when you use it. Just like your vehicle, teeth and body. Exactly the same issues.

As a former Marine DI this isn't advice, it's gospel. Never saw a man die BECAUSE he cleaned and maintained HIS OWN weapon. I have seen several die and get wounded because they did not.

Unless your mission requires it, large number of bullets is rarely "required", but can't hurt within reason. Don't think of possibility, stick with probability. I could get over run by an armored company of North Koreans on the way to the supermarket, but most likely will not.

I am equally at home with a 6 shot revolver, which I carried for years as I did a 8 shot 1911, 13 shot SIG 228, or a 15 shot Walther PPQ or HK. Nothing wrong with any 9mm Glock, but I subjectively don't care for them. I recommend Glocks to many folks. Owned my first Glock back in the mid to late 80s. I don't care for many compact weapons either.

Go figure.

Fred
Great post, chieftain.

JTMcC
December 2, 2013, 05:56 PM
mtrmn says:

Somebody on one of these forums said that 1911's are the guns you show your friends. Glocks are the guns you show your enemies.

I carry a 1st gen Glock 19 and have for like the last 15 yrs or so. My reloads with Speer 124gr Gold Dots.




I say:

We've been doing it all wrong. I've never shown a 1911 of mine to a friend, but I've used one of them while being shot at in the dark. I've never owned a Glock, can't believe I'm still breathing.
My (late) Dear Old Dad used old 1911's in a few death defying instances in this country and others. He never owned a Glock. Died of heart disease at an old age, didn't die of "don't own a Glock" at young ages when he was being shot at.

Just wish I'd of heard this earlier, I'd be even more alive than I am now.

The GlockFanBoys are just too funny.

JT

Schwing
December 2, 2013, 06:50 PM
A paradigm shift would be carrying a Lightsaber.

One of my life-long burning questions I have never had adequately answered is:

Just how well would Darth Vader do against a Tommy-gun? :)

doc540
December 2, 2013, 08:42 PM
Moving from a custom 1911 to a Glock, to me personally, is a paradigm shift. :o

KimberUltra
December 2, 2013, 09:03 PM
I switched from a 3" 45 to a 4 inch 40 s&w. I'm not even close to a practiced shooter. I can hit what I'm shooting at at a self defense range but past that it's pretty ugly. But I'm young and broke. Range time is expensive. I was never a fan of flocks just because of the stigma around here over them. You say you have a glock and ur immediately put into the gangbanger demographic. Especially since I'm young. That's why I like my kimber.

Plus fort the 40 right now is easier and cheaper than 45.

Jim NE
December 2, 2013, 09:05 PM
I've shifted from .45 to 9mm for outside carry, as well. I just have to be honest and admit it - I shoot a 9mm more accurately than a .45, at least if the 9mm is my Ruger SR9c or my CZ 75.

I still prefer my main .45acp - a Taurus PT145 - as my main home defense handgun, though, as almost all shooting distances would be 20 feet or less, and I still can shoot the PT as accurately as my good 9mm's at that distance (more or less).

I switched to the 9mm because I was worried about what, or more importantly, who, I might hit if I missed my intended target with the .45acp.

doc540
December 9, 2013, 06:40 PM
simple

and I can shoot it

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Glock%2019/2dc22845-f207-460d-8c77-95997b38fdd0_zps40dddede.jpg

1911 guy
December 10, 2013, 11:36 AM
No secret I don't like Glocks. But if it works or you, go for it. They aren't junk guns, I just don't like the design. But that's entirely subjective.

g_one
December 10, 2013, 11:45 AM
There's a gun for everyone. For most people, there are lots of guns. Personally, if I owned a G19 in addition to the 1911 I already own, I wouldn't have a problem carrying either one of them. The only thing that would keep me from regularly switching back and forth between the two is the difference in controls. A 1911 with arched MSH/hogue rubber grips points and shoots amazingly for me - and so does a Gen 4 glock. I like them both, but I happen to own a 1911 and not a Glock.

Personally, if I was going to buy a Glock, I'd buy a CZ. But that's just because I have a soft spot for CZs. I've owned Glocks in the past and had no complaints about them whatsoever. I still own my 1911 and unless someone wants to buy it along with all the holsters and grips I have for it as a package deal I'll keep it til the time comes to pass it on to g_one jr.

Jim NE
December 10, 2013, 11:48 AM
A recent shooting range experience brought home the same thing to me as it did the OP. After many years of shooting, I still shoot a good 9mm (and some not so good 9mm's) better than a .45acp. I'm going to evaluate 9mm vs. .40 in the near future, but I know off the bat the difference, if any, won't be as pronounced as with the .45. So for ccw, .45 is out, and either 9mm or .40 is in.

.45 auto will be my main home defense, though, as the shooting distances will be confined to 20 feet or under. Shotguns are too awkward and cumbersome for my application.

If you enjoyed reading about "Carry Gun Paradigm Shift" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!