10mm ? What was it originally loaded to


PDA






horsemen61
November 26, 2013, 02:06 PM
Ok guys here is my question The 10mm does anybody have any idea as to what its original loading was I see no point in handloading for it if all I am loading is a glorified 40 sw

thanks
Horsemen61

If you enjoyed reading about "10mm ? What was it originally loaded to" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Peter M. Eick
November 26, 2013, 02:16 PM
200 grns at 1200 fps is the holy grail of the 10mm. You can get their with 800x with published data.

Less than that you are in 40 "short and weak" territory.

(Spoken as a die hard 10mm fan!)

sexybeast
November 26, 2013, 02:22 PM
Yeah! 10mm is great! 1300fps with AA9 too with a 180. I know someone loading it to 1450 with Vihtavouri powders with a 180 in a 6" barrel Wicked!
When it first came out it was loaded hotter than it is now for factory. I still have a box of Norma ammo, 200gr JHP behind who knows what load? I also have a box of ProLoad thats stout too.
.357Mag was loaded much hotter in the 50's than it is today also. A 158gr use to be pushed at much more than you will find today.
Some guns are stronger than others.

jmr40
November 26, 2013, 02:29 PM
The 10mm Auto, in its original form, launched a 170gn JHP at 1,300fps and a 200gn JTC at 1,200fps.

Quoted from here. I'm getting a chronographed 1300+ fps with Double Tap 200 gr bullets and use 155 gr GA Arms loads @ about 1375 for general purpose uses. They make a light 180 gr load @ 1100 fps for a practice load I don't hand load for my 10mm.

http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id7.html

I'm a fan of the 10mm round as well, but have a realistic attitude. For most SD situations I don't really think the full power loads are necessary and a 40 or even 9mm is fine. I view my Glock 20 as my outdoors camping/hiking gun. Much lighter than any revolver, holds 2.5X more ammo and with the better loads will match 357 ballistics from shorter barrels. It comes closer to 44 mags when they are fired from 4" or shorter barrels than most of the revolver guys will admit.

Gives me a fighting chance against the extremely rare possibility of larger predators, but with the versatility to be a good choice for the far more likely 2 legged predators.

Saleen322
November 26, 2013, 07:41 PM
One of my favorite loads is a 180 HP using Blue Dot that clocks at 1252. It is VERY accurate and smacks 'em! :D

ljnowell
November 26, 2013, 07:57 PM
It comes closer to 44 mags when they are fired from 4" or shorter barrels than most of the revolver guys will admit.


Only if you are cherry picking loads. Its more like 357 mag, and even that can beat it our of a same length barrel. Plenty of data for 180gr 357s at 1400+ fps.

Torian
November 26, 2013, 08:44 PM
Only if you are cherry picking loads. Its more like 357 mag, and even that can beat it our of a same length barrel. Plenty of data for 180gr 357s at 1400+ fps.
Agreed...closer to a .41 magnum...which is still saying something. My standard load for my 10mm Elite Match is Underwoods 180 grain XTP at 1300. It moves.

nastynatesfish
November 26, 2013, 09:24 PM
Maybe close to 357 loads bit I'm yet to see a 15rnd revolver! I load 185-200gr Hornady xtp. Not sure of crony data but they'll leave the stippling marks on your hand after a clip full. I love it. I enjoy shooting it next to 45s. The FBI used it but complained about recoil so dropped it, bunch of sissies lol.

horsemen61
November 26, 2013, 09:32 PM
Ok thanks guys for the replies

ljnowell
November 27, 2013, 02:54 AM
Maybe close to 357 loads bit I'm yet to see a 15rnd revolver! I load 185-200gr Hornady xtp. Not sure of crony data but they'll leave the stippling marks on your hand after a clip full. I love it. I enjoy shooting it next to 45s. The FBI used it but complained about recoil so dropped it, bunch of sissies lol.

And thats a fact!

jmr40
November 27, 2013, 10:04 AM
It comes closer to 44 mags when they are fired from 4" or shorter barrels than most of the revolver guys will admit.

Only if you are cherry picking loads. Its more like 357 mag, and even that can beat it our of a same length barrel. Plenty of data for 180gr 357s at 1400+ fps.
__________________


You won't see those speeds from 4" or shorter barrels. Re-read my post very carefully. I specified shorter barrels.

I get 1315 fps from a G-20 shooting 200 gr bullets. That beats 180's @ 1400 fps from a 357. and you won't do that with a 3" barrel.

I also own a couple of 629's. One with a 3" barrel and another with a 4" barrel. My G-20 is 1" shorter and 3/4 lb lighter than the 3" 44 mag. The 3" gun shoots 240 gr bullets to only about 1100-1150 fps. The 4" gun is only about 100 fps faster That is not a huge difference from the 1300+ I get from the G-20. If I were to shoot those loads from an 8" barreled 44 then I would see those 1400-1500 fps speeds, but who actually carries around an 8" gun.

jmr40
November 27, 2013, 10:54 AM
Had a minor family emergency before I finished.


All of the load data, and published ballistics for magnum revolver loads are with 7.5" or 8" test barrels. All data and published ballistics for semi-auto rounds come from either 4.5" or 5" barrels. Shooting a 3", 4" or 6", 44 magnum revolver is like shooting a 300 magnum with a 9", 12" or 18" barrel. No one would be surprised if a 300 mag shot poorly from a 9" or 12" barrel, but seem surprised when a 3" or 4" 44 or 357 mag doesn't come close to published numbers.

Almost all semi-auto speeds however are usually quite close to published numbers because test barrels are closer to what people actually use. These guys have done the testing. Their data, while not perfect, has been pretty close to what I have observed.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

Same barrel length isn't important. Same overall gun length is what is important in a carry gun. A photo below of a 4.5" G-20. This gun shoots a chronographed 1315 fps with 200 gr bullets. It is 1" shorter overall, and 3/4 lb lighter than the 44 mag with a 3" barrel in the photo. The 44 only shoots 240 gr bullets to about 1150 fps. That is pretty close, and from a smaller more compact gun holding 10 more rounds.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/001-11.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/jmr40/media/001-11.jpg.html)

jmorris
November 27, 2013, 11:26 AM
I agree with the comparison to .357. A 460 Rowland kit in a Glock 21 would be more on par with the 44 mag.

jerkface11
November 27, 2013, 11:45 AM
The FBI used it but complained about recoil so dropped it, bunch of sissies lol.

Honestly as much as the FBI's 10mm weighed I don't see how recoil could have been an issue. They probably just didn't like hauling the chunk around.

Havok7416
November 27, 2013, 01:14 PM
Honestly as much as the FBI's 10mm weighed I don't see how recoil could have been an issue. They probably just didn't like hauling the chunk around.
I have a S&W 1006 - the 1076s bigger brother - and I have to say the recoil is still substantial. Follow-up shots can be difficult with full-power loads, so I can see how the FBI would have a problem with it. Not to say that I'm glad they gave up on the round!

jerkface11
November 27, 2013, 01:58 PM
I have a 1006 as well. And empty it weighs more than my fully loaded Glock 20.

Havok7416
November 27, 2013, 02:03 PM
What is the difference between the two like? All my 10mm guns are steel.

Taterhead
November 27, 2013, 07:55 PM
200 gr @ 1200 fps.

You can get there with a few different powders in a Glock 20, but only one of them while following book data. I have personally loaded to book maxes with several powders, including 800-X, Longshot, and Accurate no. 9. Only Hornady's Accurate no. 9 load got to 1200 fps with a 200 XTP in my G20. That load, by the way, is incredibly precise with SDs on velocities that I wish I could get through my rifle loads.

With a 5" barrel, LS and 800-X would likely get closer to 1200 fps. But truthfully, what is the difference between 1150 and 1200 fps?

I love the versatility of this cartridge, and the Glock 20 specifically. Full-house heavy loads for wilderness carry, or soft 40 S&W loads for gaming. And everything between.

Elkins45
November 27, 2013, 09:09 PM
I get 1315 fps from a G-20 shooting 200 gr bullets.

Is that with handloads or commercial? If handloads, would you mind sharing which powder you are using?

frankenstein406
November 27, 2013, 09:16 PM
Maybe close to 357 loads bit I'm yet to see a 15rnd revolver! I load 185-200gr Hornady xtp. Not sure of crony data but they'll leave the stippling marks on your hand after a clip full. I love it. I enjoy shooting it next to 45s. The FBI used it but complained about recoil so dropped it, bunch of sissies lol.
Wonder why they didn't go with 41ae then

rcmodel
November 27, 2013, 09:18 PM
Norma originally produced three loads for the 10mm.

200gr FMJ @ 1,200fps.
170gr JHP @ 1,300fps.
165gr JHP @ 1,400fps.

They also loaded to 44,000 CUP.
U.S. manufactures dropped that to 36,000 CUP.

Then SAAMI changed it to 37,500 PSI.
And today I think most load to the 35,000 PSI same as the .40 S&W and .357 Magnum.

But I still remember the first Colt Delta Elite I shot, and the Norma 10mm ammo of the early days!

It was like touching off a .41 Magnum, and launched brass into the next county!!

rc

41 Mag
November 28, 2013, 06:24 AM
I LOVE the 10mm and my IAI Javelina with the longer barrel. While to some they might be considered anchor material I have not found that to be the case with mine. While it might not be for everyone, it fits my hand great feels good and carries well in my shoulder rig. I do not do CC so that isn't an issue with me one bit.

It eats up 180 and 200 grain loads and easily hits the mentioned velocities with AA-9 printing 2" or so groups at 50yds while doing it. Being all SS and having the longer slide really helps with the recoil and it is a hoot to shoot. I have hunted feral hogs with it very successfully with the 180gr Gold Dots on numerous occasions.

As RC pointed out however, I usually find only about half of the cases it ejects, however so I don't shoot it as much as I would like to. When I do set up to practice at the farm with it I use an old wool army blanket held up by a piece of rope and clothes pins to deflect all the cases down into a pile. I couldn't set this up at any public range they would toss me right out.

SDGlock23
November 28, 2013, 08:07 PM
Nothing like 10mm threads. I load for the 10mm and others too, and it's got it's positive aspects, but you know it's getting deep when people seriously compare it to a .41 Mag or .44 Mag. It is very similar to .357 Magnum ballistics, it's kind of like a .357 Mag using a .400" bullet.

When the 10mm can shoot a 250gr @ 1500 fps then it will be like a .41 Magnum, it cannot so it's not. A .44 is more powerful than that so comparing the 10mm to the .44 Mag is only what fanatics do.

You hardly hear it for those comparing it to a magnum class revolver, but it is much closer to the .40 S&W performance wise. It shoots the same size and weight bullets as the .40, and it will shoot them a little faster if they're both loaded to the same pressures using the same barrel length. Good cartridge, just a wee bit over hyped.

Buck13
November 28, 2013, 08:15 PM
Norma originally produced three loads for the 10mm.

200gr FMJ @ 1,200fps.
170gr JHP @ 1,300fps.
165gr JHP @ 1,400fps.

They also loaded to 44,000 CUP.


Is there any load data from those days for powder that has not been reformulated since then?

David Wile
November 28, 2013, 10:05 PM
I used to have a Star Megastar 10MM, and it was quite gentle to shoot 200 grain bullets at the 1,200 FPS loads. Unlike other 10MM autos, it was made strong enough to handle the full loads without shooting itself apart. It really was a tank compared to the Colt and S&W autos which do not weigh anywhere near the Megastar. I can understand how folks have problems handling full loads in those autos, but I can also assure you the Megastar simply did not have the recoil of those lighter autos.

While the Megastar made it rather easy to handle the full 10MM loads because of its increased size and weight, that very same increase in size and weight made it a lot more difficult to conceal in any practical way. My only problem shooting my Megastar was the fact that my trigger finger continued to move downward with each shot. The trigger on the Megastar is too straight. If it were curved more like the trigger on my S&W 659, I don't think I would have had the problem with my finger creeping down. I wrapped a very thin strip of adhesive tape around the bottom of the Megastar trigger to form a kind of knob at the bottom, and that stopped my finger from moving. It looked dumb, but did the job. If I had continued shooting, I thing I would have had a gunsmith weld a knob on the bottom and finish it up to look a lot nicer than my adhesive tape fix.

In any case, the full load 10MM cartridge is an excellent cartridge if it is used in a really strong frame auto like the Megastar. It is a shame they stopped making the Megastar so many years ago. It really is an excellent pistol.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

jerkface11
November 28, 2013, 10:19 PM
How much does a megastar weigh? My 1006 weighs as much as my super red hawk.

David Wile
November 29, 2013, 12:27 AM
Hey Jerkface,

The 1006 is listed as 2.4 pounds, and the FBI's chosen 1076 is something less than the 1006 since it is more than a half inch shorter overall. The Megastar is listed as a whopping 3.1 pounds empty. When you put 9 rounds in the 1006 and 15 rounds in the Megastar, the difference in weight is more significant. The heavyweight Megastar really makes a difference in controlling recoil. Everyone who ever shot my Megastar for the first time was quite surprised by the mild recoil the Megastar produced with full loads. Everyone expected the recoil of a 1911 45 auto, but they were surprised when they experienced the milder recoil from the Megastar that was shooting a more powerful round than the 45 Auto.

It really was a great 10MM auto for those who could handle the overall size and weight of the Megastar. I should also mention the big double stack handle is also big, and many folks said it was too big for their hand. It fit my hand very well, and I would say my hand is certainly not big. My hand is too small to palm a basketball, so I would not call it "big."

Again, it is a shame the Megastar did not succeed in sales and was discontinued. I think the political attitude of the Clinton Administration probably contributed to the failure of the Megastar.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

steve4102
November 29, 2013, 09:16 AM
Only if you are cherry picking loads. Its more like 357 mag, and even that can beat it our of a same length barrel. Plenty of data for 180gr 357s at 1400+ fps.

Yes there is and like Hodgdon data those numbers are generated from a 10 inch barrel. That extra 5 inches is where the extra velocity comes from.

Hodgdon tested it's 10mm loads in a 5 inch barrel they list a Max velocity with 180gr bullet at 1287fps. Run this through QL with a comparable 10 inch barrel and the velocity increases to 1436fps.

Calculated the other way. Hodgdon lists a max velocity of 1422fps with 180gr bullet in a 10 inch 357 Magnum. Drop that barrel length down to 5 inches and the velocity is reduced to 1209fps.

Torian
November 29, 2013, 11:02 AM
Nothing like 10mm threads. I load for the 10mm and others too, and it's got it's positive aspects, but you know it's getting deep when people seriously compare it to a .41 Mag or .44 Mag. It is very similar to .357 Magnum ballistics, it's kind of like a .357 Mag using a .400" bullet.

When the 10mm can shoot a 250gr @ 1500 fps then it will be like a .41 Magnum, it cannot so it's not. A .44 is more powerful than that so comparing the 10mm to the .44 Mag is only what fanatics do.

You hardly hear it for those comparing it to a magnum class revolver, but it is much closer to the .40 S&W performance wise. It shoots the same size and weight bullets as the .40, and it will shoot them a little faster if they're both loaded to the same pressures using the same barrel length. Good cartridge, just a wee bit over hyped.
Ouch...but the man speaks the truth. Some of us do get a little emotional when we talk about our much beloved and usually misunderstood 10mm. Don't judge us too harshly!

I wish the .41 magnum was more prevalent than it is now. What a great caliber. While I could technically carry my 10mm with 200 grain hardcast for dangerous game, I agree the .41 magnum would be preferable.

In regards to the 10mm vs. .357, the 10mm edges it out on all fronts that I've seen...but only by a small margin when properly loaded. My main Underwood loads for these calibers are as follows:

10mm 135 grain Nosler JHP -1600 FPS
.357 magnum 125 grain Gold Dot Bonded HP - 1600 FPS

Potatohead
November 29, 2013, 05:34 PM
Ive enjoyed this thread. You 10mm folks are an interesting lot. And I think I mean that in a good way:)

If you enjoyed reading about "10mm ? What was it originally loaded to" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!