[Waxed Canvas]

Two terms in Congress with any sitting member in while measure passes being forced to resign after their term is up if more than two terms have been served. End congressional retirement now.

Our society is in collapse due to many reasons not the least of which is a group of National Policiticians who do not have the best interests of us in mind regardless of what party they come from.

Talk to anyone living on the Southwest border of the U.S. and ask them what is going on right now. It is incredible. The borders are as porous now as ever and the Border Patrol has even more restraints put on it now that ever before.

Push for term limits and don't believe the horse crap both parties put out about term limits being unconstitutional or a restriction in the freedom of speech.

Does anyone think George Washington wanted Congressmen staying in congress 30 years and leaving with a multi-million retirement deal?

[Hkmp5sd]

We already have term limits. They are called elections. If the citizens don't like their elected representative, they can vote someone else into his office. While I would love to see Ted Kennedy given the boot, if the voters of Mass. want to keep voting him into office, that is their choice.

Remember that back when George Washington was president, there was no two term limit on the office of the president.

[Don't Tread]

I agree 1000% with Waxed Canvas, But the problem is that the incumbents have been working for years to entrench themselves, and they would most likley be the ones who would vote on such a measure, It's a good idea But, something big would have to happen to get it done

[Standing Wolf]

Frankly, I think a limit of one term in federal office would be just fine. The professional politicians have done an excellent job of entrenching themselves at the nation's expense. I can't imagine amateurs could do much worse.

[GigaBuist]

Remember that back when George Washington was president, there was no two term limit on the office of the president.

Very true -- and my understanding of this is that Washington set an example by saying 2 terms was enough for him -- time for somebody else to take the torch. Everybody else went along with this until FDR. Once FDR was out of office the gentleman's rule of 2 terms being the limit was codified into law.

Personally I think our elected officials really need to be looking at their terms in office as public service, not a lifetime career. I hear so many people complain about career politicians, but they just keep voting the same guys back in it seems.

Heck, I've done it! My Congressional rep has been there forever it seems (probably all of my 23 years) but I still voted for him. Granted, his track record seems to be good with regards to AWB, but he's certainly not perfect I'm sure. It was better than a Democrat though.

[Glock Glockler]

The impetus of this post was assumedly that we have a bunch of crooks in office that pick our pockets and infringe on our rights, yes?

If that's the case then why do they keep getting elected? The problem is not the politicians, they're nothing more than whores that will cater the will of the masses, the problem is the stupid masses that believe they can get something for nothing if it comes from the govt. Product of modern culture and govt education, it is, and putting limits on terms will not solve the problem as the only result will be an increase in power of the party machinery to install whatever Santa Claus will best appeal to the public and give away whatever dole is in demand.

In markets as in politics demand is king, not supply.

If you have an educated populace that was used to taking care of their own needs instead of having Big Daddy govt wipe their behinds you'd see politicians that would reflect that. I wouldn’t mind another Ron Paul represent me for the next few decades if he was on top of his game and didn’t sell out.

There is no silver bullet, if you want to help the situation you need to:

- Get the govt out of schooling. In the past 5 decades the involvement of the Feds into education has skyrocketed and intellectual abilities of American Students has plummeted, do you think it's a coincidence?

- Ensure that only citizens vote. Ever hear of illegal aliens voting? It's not fiction, and I doubt I have to explain it.

- Scale back govt intrusion into people's life. If you get people into the habit of expecting to be taken care of they will vote for those that will provide it.

- Reform immigration so that we are not bringing in masses of welfare trolls who will vote for more doles or Jihadists who will engage in domestic terrorism. We don’t need masses of people in general; our population is plenty big as is, what we need in the form of highly skilled talent we should bring in.

- And in my ideal world voting would not simply be something that you qualify for by being born here and reaching 18. Natives should have to earn their stripes just like immigrants by passing tests in US govt, history, math & science, and economics, and they should have to swear an oath to the Bill of Rights.

It's not sexy but it has teeth, do that and you'll basically solve the problem, but if not you can go on about terms limits and accomplish nothing of any significance.

[Abe]

Sorry to be a pessimist but...while I may agree with you Glock Glocker, I think that the things that you have outlined are less likely to occur than the National Association for the Preservation of Incumbents, er I mean Congress, voting themselves out of their almost permanent jobs. Given the current situation I'd rather take my chances with the Santa Claus of the Term scenario. I've watched the Circus of the Incumbents movie long enough.

I'd like to see term limits setup the "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" scenario but completely doubt it will ever happen.

Runnin' the guvmint is waaaaay too complex for the average citizen to understand. Why, some neophtye senator or congressman might grab that old Constitution and that dang Bill O'Rights and then imagine the fix we'd be in. It's best we leave this to the perfessionals. :rolleyes:

- Abe

[TaurusCIA]

The problem is not the politicians

Maybe not completely but they have stacked the deck over the years. If they were there to help America and not coerce votes they would do the right thing instead of the political thing. (Yes, they are normally mutually exclusive.) They will never understand the plight of average American when they have established all the self rewarding perks for themselves.:(

Runnin' the guvmint is waaaaay too complex for the average citizen to understand.
It really is in most regards but only because the rules are written in Washington Politicalese. This is done intentionally to keep out the average American citizen (the riffraff) and even if one slips through they won't know the language and won't be able to do anything.:confused:

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Think about this: YOU want term limits because the OTHER GUY keeps electing HIS congresscritter to everybodies detriment. So you eeek to use the power of government to limit the other guy's choices. :scrutiny: You are either for freedom or you are not.

Term limits is just another way of saying elections do not work. If that is your position, then work on elections. Do not take away my rights to keep my congresscritters should I choose to do so.

[Waxed Canvas]

Term limits:

In 1994, the Republicans touted term limits that is until they sweeped Congress. Then they did a " Queen of the Hill " vote whereby they floated three seperate term limit measures knowing none would get a majority and the politicos could go home syaing they voted for term limits.

Yes the electorial process is broken and that is why you have so called pro gun Republicans in office when measures like the 1994 crime bill get passed. The Republicans left in mass for Thanksgiving and the bill just happened to get passed. Gee, imagine that. Sounds familiar with the Queen of the Hill doesn't it?

Ultimately, there will come a day when guns are not politcally expedient and then all politicos will seize the opportunity to neuter us.

Two terms go home------no retirement. Do any of us get a lucrative retirement for four to twelve years of work?

I am serious: WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

[Hkmp5sd]

so called pro gun Republicans in office when measures like the 1994 crime bill get passed.
It was a democratic controlled congress that passed the AW ban.

[Waxed Canvas]

You are right mpd-----my bad. Here's another twist: NO LOBBYING ANYWHERE FOR FIVE YEARS AFTER AN OFFICE IS VACATED.

I am working on a website. I will let you guys know when it is done.

two terms

no retirement

5 year moratorium on lobbying after vacating an office

[Bruce H]

If the public can pass and ratify an ammendment to limit the president to two terms it is only fitting that congress should have the same rules. I don't see the need to let them have two terms. One and out. Get more people involved with the process. Take the reelection promises out of the equation and see what happens. The entitlement bandwagon would crash. Fiscal responsibility just might make a come back. If their was no selfinterest in promising people money for votes it would never be mentioned. Their is a multitude of qualified people that could stand one term and get on with their lives. If some complete idiots were elected they wouldn't fit in like they do now.

[Hkmp5sd]

Take the reelection promises out of the equation and see what happens.
The problem is it takes all promises out of the equation. A politician can promise anything to get elected and then do absolutely anything they want. The only way to make politicians answerable to the voters is the requirement for politicians to keep the voters happy.

[TaurusCIA]

The deck is stacked so we always loose. Even when a semi-regular Joe gets there he/she is blackballed by the rest of crooks so they are ineffective and don't last long. We need to clean house.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...

I'm personally at the alter point at this time.:scrutiny:

Permanent congresscritters work to everybody's detriment. They only stay permanent by selling out to special interests.

[TaurusCIA]

I am working on a website.

Let me know by PM when you get it running.

I don't care about Republicans or Democrats or Libertarians or any other group. I want to see America back in the hands of the people and we can't do that with career politicians.

Government is only complicated because it is out of control. It is out of control because the people who run it have lost touch with the real people of America. They only hear the voices of the special interest lobbyists. They only speak Washingtonese.

[Glock Glockler]

It is out of control because the people who run it have lost touch with the real people of America

Ok, so who is it that votes for these corrupt politicians, the boogeyman?

No, it couldn't be the American people that are installing these crooks because they're too stupid to know that housing, education, healthcare, and jobs dont just spontaniously appear at the snapping of the govt's fingers?

Install whatever term limits you like, the only result is that the same politicians are still going to be in the spotlight stumping for and working with whatever new guy the party chooses to hand out doles. Seems like an alot of work to accomplish absolutely nothing.

[TaurusCIA]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems like an alot of work to accomplish absolutely nothing.
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You've got to start somewhere. It's a lot harder to steer the cart when you aren't in the driver's seat. Cut off the head and the political monster will die. It's much better than trying to give it a hang nail.

There will be a lot less incentive for the career guys if they can't ride the gravy train for life like many do now. Right now we usually have to choose between

I'd rather take my chance with new Washington blood than stick my head in the sand and wait for the people to get it. Complacency is a poison taken one drop at a time...the people are very sick about now. Term limits will not infringe on civil rights any more than Presidential term limits have.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...
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It's long overdue.

[Waitone]

We already have term limits.

Every two (count 'em, 2) years the entire house of representatives and 1/3 of the senate is up for re-election.

Every two years we the voter has the opportunity to shut down all the nonsense we call DC.

The problem is everyone wants to throw out the other guy's bum.

Throwing out your personal bum is much easier if you jettison the democrat vs. republican model and substitute the incumbent vs. challenger model.

[TaurusCIA]

is up for re-election.

There in lies the problem. I thought their term was up not that they were up for re-election. Even you assume that it's a re-election. They are supposed to be just another candidate for election not someone who we have to fight to replace.

You have just proven my point. It is so engrained that you don't even question it anymore.

How very sad.:(

[TaurusCIA]

We already have term limits.

They work about as well as our RKBA. They both have been corrupted and need fix'n.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government...

Naivete may be endearing on the Beverly Hillbillies but in politics it's constitutional suicide.

Term limits will help restore some balance to the process just as eliminating soft money helps restore accountability.

My hope is that we will get to the point were are not voting for the lesser of two bad choices.

[Waitone]

There in lies the problem. I thought their term was up not that they were up for re-election. Even you assume that it's a re-election. Nice catch! From congresses' position they are up for re-election and you are right. From our position they are up for election. Good work!

Semantic gamesmanship aside, every two years those who vote have the opportunity to shut it down and start all over. We don't by our collective decisions. If we can't exercise personal responsibility to dispense with people who displease us in congress with the tools already in place, I fail to see how one more law will accomplish anything.

[TaurusCIA]

Sometimes things are so skewed that we must level the playing field to allow for change. If you start a 100 sprint with your opponent 50 yards ahead it is very very unlikely you will be able to overcome the deficit.

John Adams: "There is no right clearer, and few of more importance, than that the people should be at liberty to choose the ablest and best men, and that men of the greatest merit should exercise the most important employments; yet, upon the present [term limits] supposition, the people voluntarily resign this right, and shackle their own choice.... [T]hey must all return to private life, and be succeeded by another set, who have less wisdom, wealth, virtue, and less of the confidence and affection of the people."

Another tragic example of the elitist assumption that any new blood in Washington will have less wisdom, virtue, etc. than the lifers. Those poor incumbents would have to return to private life like the rest of us. How awful.

Its funny how congress thought it was good to limit the President but not themselves. And of course federal judges don't want limits on themselves either. Power corrupts.

[TaurusCIA]

every two years those who vote have the opportunity to shut it down and start all over

Unfortunately we have to choose between Mr. Bad and Mr. Worse because the system has been corrupted by the lifers in Washington.

[JPM70535]

The idea of term limits sounds good in theory,and in the case of POTUS seems to have worked. (Imagine 4 more years of the Clintons) I don't ever see that happening for the reason often stated, that the Bill to limit terms would be voted on by the Critters affected by it. I see passage as slim to none.

A far better answer to the problem of worthless Congress Critters such as Teddy, (Never met a tax bill I didn't like) Kennedy, is to change the standards for the right to vote. There was something to be said for the old laws that limited voting to property owners in property tax issues or requiring literacy tests as a prerequisite to being granted the right to vote. While I feel reasonably sure that a majority of conservative ,aka Republicans might agree with these or some other voting requirements, I feel equally certain that Liberals, aka Democrats will be up in arms at any such suggestions. To impose any such standards would destroy their voter base. Just imagine if only those citizens with a minimum education level equivilent to the ability to read,write, and communicate (in English) on an 8th grade level, were accorded the right to vote. How different the makeup of Congress would look were it not for the illegals, the illiterates and the perpetual welfare class. My bet s that there would be no Chuckie boy Schumer or Diane feinstein sitting there.

Going one step further with the idea of requirements for voting rights, I would be in total favor of requireing 4 years of National Service as in Robert Heinlein's novel where such a requirement was the law of the land. Personally I feel that if such a requirement were in effect, the instances of incursions into other country's affairs that contained the possibility of the deaths of American soldiers would be few and far between, and when actions were undertaken, there would be unanimous support among the Voters who would have been there,done that. And as an added bonus, the candidacy of those like Kerry would be a non issue.

Just my opinion, and everyone has one.

[ksnecktieman]

If you can believe:
I will reduce taxes.
I will improve education.
I will win the war on drugs.
I will provide free health care.
I will support the working man.
I will reduce inflation.
I will increase national productivity.
I will bring our military home.
I will stop terrorism.
I will stop crime.
I support everyone being armed.
I will improve conditions for the underpriviledged.
I will protect the environment from abuse.
I will outlaw abortion.
I will stop prayer in schools.

IMHO fifty percent of the people that bother to vote will vote on ONE of those promises. Rich, Poor, Working, Unemployed, Sick, Crime victim, Parent of school age kids..... PICK YOUR ISSUE.

I think that the reason we have so many bad politicians is because even IF we vote, we do not have to choose each candidate. Move the lever to dem, or repub, and pull the lever, choose options, if you wish, and default if you do not select. We should go to the polls, and HAVE to write in the name of who we want to vote for (type it in). If we can not NAME our candidate we should not vote.

My own weakness is judges. They do not campaign around here, so I do not know if one is better than another. My default on them is to vote for new. If I know the name from current office, I vote against them.

When you vote you vote for everything on the ballot,,,,,,,,, I want to be able to vote for "none of the above". If I do not educate myself on city or county commisioners, or sheriff or school board, (zoning commisioner? *** does HE do?) I should not vote for them.

[MarkDido]

"It is out of control because the people who run it have lost touch with the real people of America"

I would also add that it's out of control, because about 96% of American voters don't start paying attention to political issues until about 20 minutes before an election.

Ask them John Kerry's position on the Second Amendment and you'll probably get a blank look. But if you ask them who the finalists are on American Idol, or who just got voted off the damn island, you'll get an earful.

Bread and Circuses

[Bruce H]

It is out of control because everybody wants their piece of the treasury. Remember the statement " This type of government will fail when people find they can vote themselves money from the treasury". This has been going on for a long time. People want to protect what they already have and want more, thus don't touch my congresscritter. So lets all just ride the greatest nation on earth into the ground and when it colapses scratch our collective heads in wonder.

[Joe Demko]

A far better answer to the problem of worthless Congress Critters such as Teddy, (Never met a tax bill I didn't like) Kennedy, is to change the standards for the right to vote.

This inevitably translates as "How can I disenfranchise my political opponents?"

[corncob]

Imposing standards that must be met before you "recieve" the "right" to vote from the state sounds good, but it is a terrible idea. Very few Americans vote, and very few own guns. They last thing we need to do is open the door for the state to decide who can be allowed to vote the way it decides who can be allowed to own guns.

How about filling out a 4473 at the polls and waiting while the Feds do an instant background check? Answering no to "Have you ever been a user of marijuana?" and all that crap under PENALTY OF PERJURY!!!

It would make the number of people who actually go to the trouble to vote go through the floor.

We can still peacefully assemble (some places) and we can still speak out freely against the state (about some things) and we can still own guns (a little). Do you really want to add voting to that list?

[TaurusCIA]

I have talked with many folks who don't really like "their" guy but are afraid that if they don't keep him in office then the other states guys who have been there forever will manipulate the system to give all the goodies to their voter base.

If none can stay beyond a set limit then people will be more free to vote their conscience and not their fear. If the representatives aren't there to make a career then they might be more likely to vote for the right thing instead of the political thing.

Get the judges out too. They do whatever they want because they think they are beyond the reach of the people they are supposed to serve. The attitude I see most often is (we don't serve the people we serve the law...our law).

The legal profession's relative autonomy carries with it special responsibilities of self-government. The profession has a responsibility to assure that its regulations are conceived in the public interest and not in furtherance of parochial or self-interested concerns of the bar. and if we don't then too bad because you can't make us.

John Adams: "There is no right clearer, and few of more importance, than that the people should be at liberty to choose the ablest and best men, and that men of the greatest merit should exercise the most important employments; yet, upon the present [term limits] supposition, the people voluntarily resign this right, and shackle their own choice.... [T]hey must all return to private life, and be succeeded by another set, who have less wisdom, wealth, virtue, and less of the confidence and affection of the people."

Another example of elitist thinking. Wisdom comes only from Washington.

If you aren't a Washington insider then you have no virtue.

What's up with the wealth comment? Going to Washington is supposed to give you wealth too?

[Joe Demko]

At the time Adams said that, the franchise and eligibility to hold office would have been limited to white male property owners. By default, anybody in office would have been a man of some wealth. I suspect what he was getting at was that a person who served for a long time would be a man of independent means, who could therefore afford to spend time in Washington DC. A newcomer of less wealth would be distracted from governing by the need to pursue his business interests. Adams was, I think, not addressing the idea of going into politics specifically to gain wealth.

[TaurusCIA]

"[T]hey must all return to private life, and be succeeded by another set, who have less wisdom, wealth, virtue, and less of the confidence and affection of the people."

It seems clear given the context that he thought that another "new" set of representatives would have less wisdom, wealth, etc. than those who were already there. This seems to imply that being there gives some increase in these areas. Somehow they are better than the average American. This elitist attitude is the very reason we need to clean house(s). We need to start there and move on to the judiciary.

[harpethriver]

How can a politician effectively discharge the duties of an elected office while running for office? Simple, it can't be done, notwithstanding the fact whether said politician was actually effectively discharging those duties in the first place is arguable. Is term limits a solution? We don't need no stinking term limits! What we need is a Constitional Amendment making it illegal to run for office while holding office. Wouldn't it be great to be able to force a politician to wait before running again so that said politician could have his/her record examined accurately to see if he/she actually deserved to be elected again?

[TaurusCIA]

harpethriver,

I think you have the answer. Make them do their job.

making it illegal to run for office while holding office.