30-30 vs. .308 out to 200 yards?


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Archangel14
December 1, 2013, 12:23 AM
Gents:

Is there a significant difference between the effectiveness of the 30-30 and the .308 out to about 200 yards? I know there's many different size bullets and such, so let us assume a 170 grain for the 30-30 and, say, 147 grain for the .308. And I know that "placement is everything", but let us assume that the shooter is not Dead Eye Dick and can only hope to hit the upper torso of the target.

Give me your thoughts please....Thanks!

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Radagast
December 1, 2013, 01:52 AM
Both will work.

Inebriated
December 1, 2013, 03:22 AM
Both would work, but depending on your zero, the .30-30 would have considerably more drop. Looking at Nikon's Spot-On software, the .30-30 shooting a 170 grain Nosler Partition would hit 8.3" low at 200 yards with 100 yard zero. A .308 shooting a 150 grain Nosler Partition would hit 3.6" low at 200 yards with a 100 yard zero.

jmr40
December 1, 2013, 07:34 AM
While both can work I'll take the 308 every time.

13" of bullet drop and around 900 ft lbs of energy for a 30-30 with 4-6" groups vs 3"of bullet drop and around 2100 ft lbs of energy for a 308 with 2-3" groups.

Radagast
December 1, 2013, 07:58 AM
The bullet drop is true. With lever revolution rounds I would expect tighter groups for the .30-30, but OP did specify 170 grain, so good point.
Against an unarmored thin skin target I would expect both rounds to be effective.
Recoil and recovery time are different, for a person without much experience shooting the .30-30 will be more manageable, assuming lever action vs sporter weight bolt action.

If OP is considering an AR10 or similar weapon then the semi will win every time.

Platform and shooter will be more important than the cartridge in any adrenaline charged flight or fight scenario.

Robert
December 1, 2013, 09:40 AM
Lets focus on the ballistics and leave out the rest.

LebbenB
December 1, 2013, 10:16 AM
While both can work I'll take the 308 every time.

13" of bullet drop and around 900 ft lbs of energy for a 30-30 with 4-6" groups vs 3"of bullet drop and around 2100 ft lbs of energy for a 308 with 2-3" groups.
This says it all, right here. Assuming iron sights, at 200 yds, using a .308 would be as simple as aiming COM. With 30-30, you have to use some Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation. Simple is always better.

hatt
December 1, 2013, 10:16 AM
If you're wanting to shoot to 200 yards don't sight in the .30-30 at 100 yards. Sight it in to take full advantage of the chosen bullet. .30-30 is an easy 200 yard deer cartridge.

hatt
December 1, 2013, 10:21 AM
This says it all, right here. Assuming iron sights, at 200 yds, using a .308 would be as simple as aiming COM. With 30-30, you have to use some Kentucky windage and Tennessee elevation. Simple is always better.All that says to me is that misinformation is prevalent. Proper zero give the .30-30 200+ yard MPBR.

krupparms
December 1, 2013, 10:36 AM
If both rifles were sighted in at 200', I don't think you would see much practical difference! If the rounds hit in about same spot. Say a heart /lung shot. I would say that the game would be dead by the time you got to it. Not much practical difference! JMO.

Archangel14
December 1, 2013, 10:40 AM
Let me be more specific....my question left the arena open to too much interpretation. I know that a 30-30 is not on par with a .308. But is there a significant difference in what a 30-30 and a .308 would do to a living target at say 100 yards, and at 200 yards?

krupparms
December 1, 2013, 11:08 AM
Not much if any!

Art Eatman
December 1, 2013, 11:45 AM
@ Post #11: Six of one, half-dozen of the other.

jmr40
December 1, 2013, 11:53 AM
All that says to me is that misinformation is prevalent. Proper zero give the .30-30 200+ yard MPBR.

A 30-30 zeroed at 200 is going to be 5" high at 100, about 3" high at 50 yards. Deer or any other target, human or not, rarely stand out in the open with a bullseye painted on the vitals. They are usually behind or in thick cover presenting a much smaller target. I don't want to have to remember to aim low at the ranges where 90+% of shots are taken just to be able to make easier hits at ranges I'll probably never shoot. Much easier to aim high on long shots than to remember to aim low on quick snap shots at closer range.

My 308 loads will never be more than 1/2" above or below my line of sight from 50-130 yards and only about 3" low at 200. No guess work involved at 50-150 yards where almost all shots are realistically taken.

is there a significant difference in what a 30-30 and a .308 would do to a living target at say 100 yards, and at 200 yards?

If you hit a deer sized animal, including humans, no. The difference is that the 308 greatly increases the probability of a hit.

Archangel14
December 1, 2013, 12:05 PM
If you hit a deer sized animal, including humans, no. The difference is that the 308 greatly increases the probability of a hit.

I guess the 308 increasing the probability of a hit that would depend , in large measure, on the shooter's ability and familiarity with the firearm. I have an old Yugo M48 that I'm really good with out to about 100 yards. I can get 1.5-2 inch groups with iron sights. But I think it's because I am practiced with it. But out to 200, I'm 5-10 inches. More a result of the crappy sights than anything, I think.

So what I'm taking away from this thread is that if I can put a 30-30 round on a living creature at 100-200 yards, it will likely have the same deadly effect as a 308 at such range, correct?

Ratshooter
December 1, 2013, 12:34 PM
I found a couple of bowling balls someone was throwing away. I took them to my buddies land. We set them up at 300 yards. He shot one with a 270 and a 150gr bullet. I shot it with my 30-30 and I can't remember if it was a 150gr or a 170gr bullet but I think it was a 170gr and when we looked at the chunks blown off the ball the craters were almost identicle.

The 270 was a little bigger but not by much. I suspect a 30-30 at 200 yards would be a very deadly round. And you could use a scope with extra stadia lines to help with the aiming point.

Malamute
December 1, 2013, 12:45 PM
Your initial post mentioned a 147 gr 308 bullet, which would be a full jacket military load. In that case, I'd choose the 30-30. I wouldn't use a full jacket bullet to hunt or shoot any living critter if I had a choice. If you mean 150 gr soft point hunting ammo, the 308 will have a more pronounced wounding effect. Having shot deer with a 30-30, they work, but with not nearly the tissue damage of a 30-06 (which is very close to a 308 in ballistic performance). My take on dressing out animals shot with those two rounds, and seeing the reaction of the animal from a hit is, something would have a better chance of surviving with a 30-30 hit than a 308 hunting load hit.

With similar zero ranges (they DONT have to be at exactly the same zero range to compare) both will be reasonably easy to hit with out to 200 yards. If you want more precise hitting ability than just making a decent game shot on a deer etc, the 308 would be easier to achieve that with, being flatter shooting.

palmrose2
December 1, 2013, 01:41 PM
All that says to me is that misinformation is prevalent. Proper zero give the .30-30 200+ yard MPBR.
Not with iron sights less than an inch above bore line. Sight height is as always, a big deal. It drives me crazy when people quote ballistics without quoting sight height. All the parameters are a big deal. Wind drift in a 10 mph cross wind may approach 10 " @ 200 yds.

Your every day 30-30 170 gr flat nosed bullet leaving the muzzle @ 2,200 fps is IMHO, a sketchy load for your average hunter @ 200 yds.

Nite Ryder
December 1, 2013, 03:03 PM
At 200 hundred yards there is a big enough difference in these two cartridges that it would be wise to use the 308 unless you were shooting a tin cans and just wanted to hear something go bang. If you are serious about hitting a target or slowing down a threat at 200 yards, use a 308. If you want a fast handling gun at 75 yards use a 30-30 Winchester.

shafter
December 1, 2013, 03:41 PM
I know a 30-30 is capable at 200 yards with good ammunition but if I thought that 200 yard shots might be common I'd go with a 308.

Archangel14
December 1, 2013, 08:29 PM
I know a 30-30 is capable at 200 yards with good ammunition but if I thought that 200 yard shots might be common I'd go with a 308.

Is that because a 30-30 at 200 yards will do significantly less damage to a living creature than a .308 at that distance?

Stophel
December 1, 2013, 08:33 PM
It's not a matter of terminal performance within normal ranges. It's all a matter of trajectory. ;) The .308 shoots flatter. That's it.

d2wing
December 1, 2013, 08:37 PM
There will be more tissue damage with the .308 assuming both are normal expanding hunting bullets. I don't recall the exact speeds that determine the amount of cavitation. The .308 shoots flatter, is more accurate and has more energy. But it has more recoil. In a light gun like a lever action some guys prefer the 30-30 for deer.

WVRJ
December 1, 2013, 08:44 PM
308 will just plain out perform the 30-30.Not even a good comparison.More accurate,flatter shooting,harder hitting.I have been hunting deer for about 40 years,and have been on more wounded deer chases from the 30-30 than any other round.30-30 will do the job,but it is often over estimated in what it can do.Thanks to me,you are now 2 cents richer.

back40
December 1, 2013, 09:00 PM
been on more wounded deer chases from the 30-30 than any other round

this could very well be due to poor shot placement, and shouldn't be taken as a fault of the cartridge itself. it has been said that 30-30 has taken more deer than any other cartridge, and has also been used with great success for black bear and moose.

however, i do agree, that .308 will outperform it in most any situation.

MutinousDoug
December 1, 2013, 09:18 PM
When I used to shoot cowboy metallic silhouette back in the 1980's, I used 150gr RN 30-30 bullets throughout the course. The 200 yd rams when down when hit and spattered the jacketed bullets pretty thoroughly.
If you know the ballistic limitations of the cartridge, they are going to be effective on game at that range. Would the .308 Win cartridge be more effective? Seriously?

WVRJ
December 1, 2013, 09:32 PM
Shot placement and the popularity of the 30-30 in my area would be more to blame than anything.Most guys around here who use a 30-30 don't shoot them often,a lot of the rifles are iron sighted lever actions,and they are carried by old-timers who think that kind of setup will kill em as far as you can see em.I look at my 308 precision rifle and think to myself "there's a comparison?Really?"

TexasPatriot.308
December 1, 2013, 09:39 PM
for some reason the .308 has been used by the military as a sniper round instead of the 30/30......cant see why this is even being asked.

KY Sparky
December 1, 2013, 09:55 PM
Here's data from Hornady:

155 gr 308: 2045 ft-lb @200yd
160 gr 30-30: 1643 ft-lb @ 200yd

With modern ammunition this is more than enough energy to effectively kill a deer or human sized target at this range. So, if the shooter can do his/her part: dead is dead. No difference, however the shooter's job could be a littler easier with a .308 at "in between" ranges due to flatter trajectory.

Nite Ryder
December 2, 2013, 01:04 AM
In deed a 30-30 has probably killed more deer than any other rifle, but the rest of the story is, for so many years there was not another comparable rifle. Because it has killed more deer means nothing, we have no way of knowing how many deer were hit and got away or were not recovered. A 30-30 is a wonderful rifle for what it was designed for, and that was short range shooting. Two hundred yards stretches it's capabilities, but it more than stretches the capabilities of most shooters. Remember, most shooters are not 20 year old kids with sharp eye sight, they are old fuddie duddies like me who wear glasses and don't see as well as we once did. Believe it or not, we don't shoot as well as we once did either. If the 30-30 is a Marlin it is easy to mount a scope, and that helps, but it still doesn't make a 30-30 perform like a 308. The time is coming when we will be saying 'an AR-15 kills more deer than anything else'.

Glock19Fan
December 2, 2013, 01:21 AM
for some reason the .308 has been used by the military as a sniper round instead of the 30/30......cant see why this is even being asked.

Because it is a NATO round that allows the use of Spitzer type bullets that give the platform accuracy out to 600-1000 yards. Also, there are far better weapon designs available for the .308 than the .30-30.

None of this means that the .30-30 is a bad cartridge, as you seem to imply. A good 170 grain soft point does very well terminally out to 150-200 yards. At that range is still gives good expansion, a reasonable amount of fragmentation and most importantly deep penetration.

The only issue I can think of when hunting with the .30-30 out to that range is competency of the shooter. If you are good enough to hit the kill zone, then the .30-30 is good enough to quickly kill/drop the deer.

palmrose2
December 2, 2013, 04:29 AM
Because it is a NATO round that allows the use of Spitzer type bullets that give the platform accuracy out to 600-1000 yards. Also, there are far better weapon designs available for the .308 than the .30-30.

None of this means that the .30-30 is a bad cartridge, as you seem to imply. A good 170 grain soft point does very well terminally out to 150-200 yards. At that range is still gives good expansion, a reasonable amount of fragmentation and most importantly deep penetration.

The only issue I can think of when hunting with the .30-30 out to that range is competency of the shooter. If you are good enough to hit the kill zone, then the .30-30 is good enough to quickly kill/drop the deer.
Dude. I can not imagine any fragmentation of a typical 170 grain 30-30 bullet at velocities under 1800 fps. Nor would I want any in a carcass I intend to consume.

Glock19Fan
December 2, 2013, 04:35 AM
Dude. I can not imagine any fragmentation of a typical 170 grain 30-30 bullet at velocities under 1800 fps. Nor would I want any in a carcass I intend to consume.

Many soft points will exhibit some fragmentation down to around 1600 FPS unless they are bonded or use a hard lead. The 170 grain Core Lokt bullets in .30-30 have an fairly large amount of exposed lead at the nose of soft lead, and despite being well known for holding together, the tip will almost always produce fragmentation.

And fragmentation shouldn't matter when hunting because most people don't shoot where they eat. Much of the fragmentation is distributed throughout the heart and lungs and is rarely in edible muscle tissue.

Arkansas Paul
December 2, 2013, 10:11 AM
for some reason the .308 has been used by the military as a sniper round instead of the 30/30......cant see why this is even being asked.

Well hell, if thats the logic you want to use, you could apply it to the .308 vs any cartridge out there.

What is better for long range shooting, a .308 or a .270 WSM? Well the military uses .308 so it must be so much better that its a silly question.

hatt
December 2, 2013, 10:15 AM
A 30-30 zeroed at 200 is going to be 5" high at 100, about 3" high at 50 yards.
How bout not zeroing at 200 either. Maybe, if you wanted to instead of simply arguing the superiority of some other round, there's a zero that can be worked out for your load that keeps you no more than 3 inch high or low all the way to 200.

The way the arguments are going here the .308 is also a poor choice because they make even more better magnum rounds.

hatt
December 2, 2013, 10:22 AM
Here's data from Hornady:

155 gr 308: 2045 ft-lb @200yd
160 gr 30-30: 1643 ft-lb @ 200yd

With modern ammunition this is more than enough energy to effectively kill a deer or human sized target at this range. So, if the shooter can do his/her part: dead is dead. No difference, however the shooter's job could be a littler easier with a .308 at "in between" ranges due to flatter trajectory.
Please don't try and insert common sense into the debate. If discussing the long range ability of of short range cartridges you only compare the worst of the options not solutions specially designed to address the issue. Hornady bullet take away the debate.

valnar
December 2, 2013, 10:28 AM
People choose the .30-30 (talking about today, not 100yrs ago) because of the guns, not the terminal ballistics of the cartridge. Lever guns are cool. But lets face it, if no lever guns existed and you had to choose a cartridge for a bolt action, nobody would choose the .30-30. (For the equivalent recoil, I'd pick the 6.5x55 :) )

I'm not saying that is right or wrong - I have a couple levers too. But for the most part they are short range guns. If you plan on consistently shooting targets 200 yards away, pick up the .308. If that is the extreme end, then the .30-30 is fine.

The same argument can be made for .44Mag out of a rifle under 50 yards. Great performance and capacity out of a lever gun, but wouldn't be your first pick for 200 yards.

Saleen322
December 2, 2013, 10:35 AM
The .308 does generally have a practical advantage but most of that is not due to the cartridge, it is more often the rifle it is chambered in. I have 6 .308s and 3 30-30s but none of my 30-30s are lever action so I can load more efficient bullets and am not limited to flat nose types. I used to play around with cast bullets a lot and due to the long neck of the 30-30, it had a good reputation for accuracy in that role. I have a 788 Remington in 30-30 (now in 38-55) that shot well but I have a 340 Savage that was a real 1.5 MOA gun with cast bullets and sometimes better. If you are looking at a single shot or bolt action 30-30 and you reload, it will perform well out to 200 yards and its performance will surprise a lot of people especially those with limited background on firearms. However if you are looking at a low cost factory rifle and factory ammo, the .308 will be the better choice.

Arkansas Paul
December 2, 2013, 10:37 AM
The way the arguments are going here the .308 is also a poor choice because they make even more better magnum rounds.

I don't think anyone said that the .308 or .30-30 either one was a poor choice. For whitetails at 200 yds, both are good choices.
I was simply pointing out that just because the military uses it, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is the best at something. Saying that out of two rounds, the one that the military uses must be better is silly.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2013, 10:56 AM
Use the one that is most practical for your situation. Distance, load choice, how it carries; these are your deciding factors.

If a particular example of either rifle is inaccurate for the shooter, the why should be determined such that no animal suffer needlessly. If the shooter is the accuracy problem, he or she should also seek correction but to echo others, dead is dead.

hatt
December 2, 2013, 10:56 AM
I don't think anyone said that the .308 or .30-30 either one was a poor choice. For whitetails at 200 yds, both are good choices.
I was simply pointing out that just because the military uses it, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is the best at something. Saying that out of two rounds, the one that the military uses must be better is silly.I wasn't directing anything at you. The "cause the military uses it" was certainly silly. And especially considering the military is moving on to other calibers for sniper roles.

I'm addressing the people that are arguing nuances of .308 vs .30-30 trajectory for short range hunting. Sure the .308 shoots flatter than the .30-30, but the 7mm mag shoots flatter than the .308. It must be better too.

Archangel14
December 2, 2013, 11:01 AM
Okay, this thread has gotten a little off "target", so to speak (pun intended). I know that a .308 shoots flatter and has more energy. I get that. I understand why the military uses it and not a 30-30 round. I understand that the 30-30 is much weaker.

BUT, the question remains: if I shot a living creature (let's say a 150 pound living creature) somewhere in the chest at 200 yards, is there really any difference in the outcome between the 30-30 and the .308?

hatt
December 2, 2013, 11:08 AM
Okay, this thread has gotten a little off "target", so to speak (pun intended). I know that a .308 shoots flatter and has more energy. I get that. I understand why the military uses it and not a 30-30 round. I understand that the 30-30 is much weaker.

BUT, the question remains: if I shot a living creature (let's say a 150 pound living creature) somewhere in the chest at 200 yards, is there really any difference in the outcome between the 30-30 and the .308?
Pretty sure that's been answered. NO DIFFERENCE. If you make a good hit, you made a good hit.

Art Eatman
December 2, 2013, 11:27 AM
Either agree or disagree with hatt. Forget all the other off-topic stuff. :)

Arkansas Paul
December 2, 2013, 11:34 AM
BUT, the question remains: if I shot a living creature (let's say a 150 pound living creature) somewhere in the chest at 200 yards, is there really any difference in the outcome between the 30-30 and the .308?

If they land in the same spot, no there will be no difference. The outcome will be a dead deer if the hit is in the vitals.
However, depending on ammo selection, the one hit with the .30-30 may run a little farther before expiring as a result of the flat nose lead bullets that must be used with them. With the .308 you can use bullets like ballistic tips, SSTs or SGK BTHPs that expand more rapidly and violently than the standard cup and core soft points, resulting in faster kills. That is the main difference at that distance IMO.

CraigC
December 2, 2013, 11:57 AM
Good Lord, we need a flatter shooting cartridge than the .30WCF for 200yds now??? If that's the case then certainly we need .300 magnums for 300yds and the .338Lapua for 400. Seriously, if I thought I needed a cartridge that shot flatter than the ole .30-30 for 200yd shots on deer-sized critters, I'd quit right now. Heaven forbid we should actually learn how our rifles shoot and adjust accordingly.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Arkansas Paul
December 2, 2013, 12:06 PM
Calm down Craig. Have some coffee or something. :)

OrangePwrx9
December 2, 2013, 12:20 PM
Quote:
been on more wounded deer chases from the 30-30 than any other round

"this could very well be due to poor shot placement, and shouldn't be taken as a fault of the cartridge itself."

And poor shot placement might be because:
1) range judgment is much more critical with the high, looping trajectory of the .30-30.

2) the .30-30 and the rifles it is chambered in are both inherently less accurate than .308 in a typical bolt-action

And wounded deer might be because there wasn't enough velocity left at range to reliably expand the .30-30 bullet.

I've heard the 'wounded deer-chase/.30-30' story several times. OTOH, I've very seldom heard it with regard to .308 or .30-06 class cartridges.

If 200 yard shots are seriously in the cards, the .308 is the most humane choice. For me, as an average hunter, the .30-30 is at most a 100 to 120 yard rifle; about half the range someone skilled with that cartridge would attempt.

Archangel14
December 2, 2013, 01:16 PM
Pretty sure that's been answered. NO DIFFERENCE. If you make a good hit, you made a good hit.

Now there you go! Thanks Hatt!

Seriously, if I thought I needed a cartridge that shot flatter than the ole .30-30 for 200yd shots on deer-sized critters, I'd quit right now.

More really good, plain, simple insight. Thanks CraigC

Now, let me tell you where I was going with this. I know we take the "High Road" here. That's why I subscribe. No Zombie talk here. BUT, I am searching for a defensive rifle that is an alternative to the AR/AK platforms. Thought I had it with a lever action .44, but not too thrilled with it. Have my eyes focused on a 20 inch .308 bolt gun, but I thought that it might be too much for my expected defensive ranges (100 to 200 yards). Hence, my inquiry as to the 30-30, compared with a quantity that I am familiar with, ie the .308. Based upon the many fine responses here, I think I'd be well equipped with a Marlin 20 inch in 30-30. Thanks for all the info!

fragout
December 2, 2013, 02:12 PM
Here is some information that I gathered that you might find useful.

I have a 20in bbl rifle chambered in 30-30, and an 18.5 in bbl rifle chambered in 308.

Here were my results using a chronogragh.

Note: Both were fired on the same day and under the same conditions.

Note: 30-30 = Win 170gr Power Point.
308 = Win 150gr Power Point.

Note: I ran both of the cartridge's average velocities thru my ballistics program, along with the E.C., elevation above sea level, etc...... and here is what it came to.

Velocity and K.E. at 20ft from the muzzle:
30-30: 2199fps with 1825ft/lbs of energy
308 : 2769fps with 2553ft/lbs of energy


200yards:
30-30: 1602fps with 969ft/lbs of energy
308: 2194fps with 1603ft/lbs of energy

I have hunted with both of these rifles, ( Deer, as well as hogs)....... and while the 308 has quite a bit more behind it's bullet at the 200yard mark compared to the 30-30, both are very capable at killing.

Especially if the shot from either rifle is placed in the same spot (Sake of argument.)

Both seem to produce similar wound channels at 200yards or closer, and typically exit the animal. (Quartering shots included)

The difference really showed itself to me when the distance is increased, and if I'm hunting something bigger than white tail deer.....but that wasn't your question.

BTW..... I did shoot a few boxes of 147gr 7.62x51mm on the same day, and under the same conditions. (Win "white box" Q3130)........using the same 18.5in bbl rifle.

It's really gonna come down to the rifle, and what you prefer to shoot, unless your wanting to hunt bigger critters like elk at 200yards, or whitetail deer at distances over 200yards.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2013, 03:06 PM
Agree with hatt, amen CraigC! AA14, for your purposes, you might also look into the Ruger Mini 30 if you don't find a 30-30 that strikes your fancy. Hope that doesn't stray too far off topic, just another idea.

Archangel14
December 2, 2013, 04:59 PM
you might also look into the Ruger Mini 30

Thanks. I actually want something with a little more "ummppff" than a .223.

Arkansas Paul
December 2, 2013, 05:01 PM
Mini 30s aren't .223, they're 7.62x39 which is about the same power level as a .30-30 Win.
I'd rather have the .30-30, but that's just me. Your opinion may differ.

Eb1
December 2, 2013, 05:21 PM
Just use a .25-06 and sight it in @ 200 yards. Barely and inch travel in elevation over the 200 yards. Just aim and squeeze.

Sorry. I had to say it.

Skylerbone
December 2, 2013, 05:43 PM
I'd rather have the .30-30, but that's just me. Your opinion may differ.

I would as well but if Archangel is looking for an short range defensive? rifle rather than a true hunting rifle then 7.62 x 39 in a semi-auto is still a practical choice. It would languish in my safe while a good lever gun would see plenty of action but again, it's all about personal decisions.

Officers'Wife
December 2, 2013, 06:16 PM
Good Lord, we need a flatter shooting cartridge than the .30WCF for 200yds now??? If that's the case then certainly we need .300 magnums for 300yds and the .338Lapua for 400. Seriously, if I thought I needed a cartridge that shot flatter than the ole .30-30 for 200yd shots on deer-sized critters, I'd quit right now. Heaven forbid we should actually learn how our rifles shoot and adjust accordingly.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.


I agree with you Craig, it's not the machine it's the operator. My ancient little 32-20 will hit a target at 200 yards and still have enough energy to do some damage. My Grandfather could makes hits at unbelievable ranges with his Garand. My hubby is fair with his Remington 308 and my brother takes coyotes with his 30-30 at what I consider extreme ranges well in excess of 200 yards. But my brother has been shooting that rifle since he was 13 and he considers it almost an old friend.

back40
December 2, 2013, 06:17 PM
And poor shot placement might be because:
1) range judgment is much more critical with the high, looping trajectory of the .30-30.

2) the .30-30 and the rifles it is chambered in are both inherently less accurate than .308 in a typical bolt-action


range estimation is up to the shooter. some are good at it, some aren't. action type wasn't part of the question. if we leave it to cartridge effectiveness alone, either will do the trick at 200yds with proper shot placement. whether you are capable of proper shot placement with a 30-30 is a different story, and up to the individual to decide.

Archangel14
December 2, 2013, 07:01 PM
Mini 30s aren't .223, they're 7.62x39

Ah yes, forgive me. I knew that. If I went with the 7.62x39, I'd probably opt for an AK variant.

my brother takes coyotes with his 30-30 at what I consider extreme ranges well in excess of 200 yards. But my brother has been shooting that rifle since he was 13 and he considers it almost an old friend.

More of what I'm looking for. I'm really sold on the idea that acquaintance with the firearm is much more important than the inherent ballistics. I'm concluding that a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with much practice can be a really solid "defense" platform.

OrangePwrx9
December 2, 2013, 08:42 PM
Saigas are a decent 7.62x39 AK variant. Used to be quite inexpensive compared to a Mini-30. Now they've gone up some and are getting hard to find.

They come outfitted with a hunting stock, but can be easily upgraded to full AK configuration if that's your thing. See the forum on Saiga-12.com

Skylerbone
December 2, 2013, 08:58 PM
I'm concluding that a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with much practice can be a really solid "defense" platform.

It can indeed.

d2wing
December 2, 2013, 09:45 PM
Yes there is, I repeat, there will be more tissue damage. After certain thresholds there is more tissue damage as velocity increases. This does depend on factors such as which tissue, bullet construction and range but yes, the .308 will do more damage all else being equal. If both bullets expand the .308 will transfer more energy and this will show up as bloodshot tissue. If you hit the deer in the lungs as you should death will be quicker as more of the lungs will be mush. Those of you that do not shoot enough game with a variety of weapons over a lifetime or study enough should really not confuse the poster by saying one hole is as good as another. It is not. I agree with the poster that said more deer are wounded by a 30-30. I love my 30-30 for sneaking through brush but understand it's limitations. The .308 hits harder.

Ro1911
December 2, 2013, 10:47 PM
yes

Float Pilot
December 2, 2013, 11:38 PM
30-30:

Most Win M-94 carbines and Marlin 336s which are chambered for the 30-30 cartridge use a 20 inch barrel.

The 30-30 AKA 30 WCF only develops about 1,950 to 2,000 fps with a 170 grain bullet fro a 20 inch barrel.

The standard 170 grain 308 caliber semi flat nose bullet has a ballistic coefficient of 0.205

IF, fired at an optimistic 2,000 fps, the 170 grain Sierra bullet is only traveling at 1,357 fps at 200 yards. Developing about 695 foot pounds of energy.
IF, that 30-30 rifle is zeroed ( sighted) at 100 yards, the bullet will drop another 11.5 inches by the time it gets to 200 yards.

Thus a miscalculation in range by only 50 yards will mean missing the vital area of a deer sized animal. 50 yards too close it will be 7.5 inches higher and 50 yards further it will be 10 inches lower.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

308Win:

Using a 20 inch barrel once again, the real world velocities for a 150 grain soft point run between 2,750 to 2,800 fps for the 308 Winchester.

A Sierra 150 grain soft point boat tail has a ballistic coefficient of 0.380
A 150 grain Hornady flat based soft point has a BC of 0.344

If we use the lower BC'ed flat base bullet and the lower velocity, we still come up with a retained velocity of 2,246 fps at 200 yards. And with a retained energy of 1,680 foot pounds.

When sighted ( zeroed ) at 100 yards it is only 4.1 inches low at 200 yards.


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

RECAP:
150 grain 308 and 170 grain 30-30 from a 20 inch barrels:

308 remaining velocity: = 2,246 fps..... energy= 1,680 foot pounds
30-30 remaining velocity; = 1,357 fps....Energy= 695 foot pounds.

If both are sighted at 100 yards the 30-30 has over TWICE the extra drop out at 200 yards.

Personally I would regard using the 30-30 at 200 yards as un-sportman. It does not retain enough energy for a predicable clean kill.

Officers'Wife
December 3, 2013, 06:15 AM
Ah yes, forgive me. I knew that. If I went with the 7.62x39, I'd probably opt for an AK variant.



More of what I'm looking for. I'm really sold on the idea that acquaintance with the firearm is much more important than the inherent ballistics. I'm concluding that a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with much practice can be a really solid "defense" platform.

Any weapon, with solid training, can become a defense platform. My poor little underpowered Winnie 92 in 32-20 can put a ball in the same hole at "social" range with a little practice. While not having the knockdown power of hubby's 308 or bubba's 30-30 or even Dad's 45-70, a round in the breadbasket is going to make even the most stubborn and dedicated hostile wonder if he may have made a mistake.

I've been told by certain Vietnam Vets that they personally knew of a "crazed boonie rat" that used to snipe at the enemy with a short bow. The claim was turning around and seeing one of your comrades with an arrow in his chest or -ahem- privates was not good for morale.

Last but by far least, remember the last stand of Don Alejo, who was not allowed by law to have true "effective" defense weapons yet in his last stand managed to kill four of his attackers that were armed with fully automatic weapons and anti personnel grenades. The lesson of Don Alejo is that if the person of the moment has decided enough is enough, it doesn't matter what they have to be deadly. The heart bent on destruction is a terrible weapon of war.

hatt
December 3, 2013, 10:03 AM
If both are sighted at 100 yards the 30-30 has over TWICE the extra drop out at 200 yards.
But why would you sight in a .30-30 at 100 yards if you anticipated up to 200 yard shots? And why not discuss other bullets that may be more suited for longer range work? I hear some company made bullets for just such purposes.

CraigC
December 3, 2013, 10:28 AM
Personally I would regard using the 30-30 at 200 yards as un-sportsman. It does not retain enough energy for a predicable clean kill.
That's an irresponsible and erroneous statement.

Or we can be realistic and unbiased and see that a 170gr .30-30, which is a fantastic penetrator, probably shouldn't be compared to a 150gr .308. A 150gr .30-30 will run an honest 2200fps with a BC of .255. As such, sighted in at 150yds, will be no more than 1" half high up to that range and 4" low at 200yds.

Same scenario for a 170gr Speer at 2100fps is less than half an inch less flat. So I don't know where the above nonsense comes from but that's exactly what it is, nonsense.

Energy. :barf: A 250gr .45Colt at 900fps produces a paltry 450ft-lbs of your precious energy, at the muzzle, yet will fully penetrate any deer that walks from any angle and kill it deader than fried chicken. So maybe folks should start realizing that energy is a poor gauge of a cartridge's effectiveness against live critters. How many .30-30 haters have actually spent much time with one? Versus those just looking at ballistics tables or plugging numbers into programs? Bottom line is that the .30-30 is a simple solution to many a problem and that within its effective range, nothing does a better job on whitetail. I can see how folks with .308's, .30/06's and .300Mag's with big 3-9x and 4-12x scopes, who never shoot beyond 200yds, would be hesitant to accept that their rifles don't kill deer any deader than the lowly and unfashionable (perceived to be outdated) .30-30.

Float Pilot
December 3, 2013, 03:35 PM
The Original Poster asked specifically for the 170 grain bullet.
He also said he was not exactly a sure shot.

While I agree that the 170 grain bullet will penetrate just fine even at the low velocity of 1,357 fps at 200 yards. It will only poke a 30 caliber hole, which is fine if it goes where it should. But he said he was not a sure shot..

I like the 30-30 just fine, however when using a 30-30 carbine (20 inch bbl) I limit my shots to the 100-125 yard range while hunting. Which is more than fine for a wooded area.

I grant you that the Alaskan Sitka Black-Tail deer are smaller than the southern US white tail. A big one only weighs 140 pounds. Most weigh more like 100.
When you see half of one protruding from behind a tree you have a couple seconds to make a shot before he makes the jump to light speed.
Trying that at 200 yards is a bit of a stretch after you have been climbing up a heavily wooded hill side all day.
If you wound one, they run off into the brush and the nearest Brown Bear usually finds it long before you do...

( we only have deer in limited areas of our state, The fish and game yahoos prevent them from spreading. Unfortunately all the areas with Sitka Black tail are also heavily populated with Brown Bears. They tend to be attracted by rifle shots during deer season. They will run up and steal a deer carcass while you are trying to load it in your boat. And you can not shoot a brown bear for doing that...)

Our caribou are larger, but much tougher than a deer. Every year I see wounded caribou running off from guys who hit them with 308s and 30-06s. While they do tend to migrate through open areas which would afford you a 200 yard shot from a prone position. There is no way to quickly make a follow-up shot in case you only wound the poor critter at long range. At least not with a 30-30 carbine. After the first shot the whole herd hits 50 mph in the other direction.

I have taken more than a few caribou with a 30-30 carbine, but usually at less than 100 yards with proper stalking techniques.

I also have an old 1894 Winchester with a 26 inch barrel and a tang peep sight. It generates 150-175 fps more velocity and is much more accurate than my more recent production 94 carbine. I would not hesitate to use that rifle at longer ranges, if we allowed salt lick or corn drop stations for an accurate range guess. But we do not. That rifle has taken a couple moose and a rather large brown bear. But it is worth more than our old car, so I trying not to get it too far out in the boondocks.

Tom Horn's disputed last long shot was with a 30-30 Rifle ( 26 inch barrel) and that was at 210 yards. He said it would have been the shot of his life, if he had done it...

Eb1
December 3, 2013, 03:40 PM
I have a hard time believing a 180 grain .30-06 will not drop a rain deer in his sled tracks. Not to get off topic to much, but the people shooting the rifle must be the worst shots ever.

hatt
December 3, 2013, 05:00 PM
The Original Poster asked specifically for the 170 grain bullet.
He also specifically asked about the 147 grain .308 bullet too but you didn't mention that poor selection just pointed out better options. OP isn't even talking about hunting and has cause the usually bickering about this and that.

1. Almost all deer are shot under 200 yards.
2. .30-30 is a fine deer cartridge out to 200 yards assuming adequate shooter/equipment ability.
3. If you're planning on the possibility of taking longer shots Hornady pointy bullets are probably a good idea.
4. If you're planning on hunting open country or power lines leave the .30-30 at home and bring something else. No such thing as the do all rifle.

Anything else?

fragout
December 3, 2013, 05:35 PM
I have a hard time believing a 180 grain .30-06 will not drop a rain deer in his sled tracks. Not to get off topic to much, but the people shooting the rifle must be the worst shots ever.
================================================================

I would agree.:) If a body cant shoot straight, they need to learn how, and quit blaming it on the cartridge, as any of the cartridges mentioned here (too include 7.62x39mm) has the lethal capacity to put bambi in the dirt out to 200 yards.

With that said, 30-06 and 308 leave 30-30 and 7.62x39mm in the dust out past them distances.

Example below: ( Exit wound via one northern plains whitetail deer )

He was hit at exactly 464.8 yards with one 168gr BTHP with a BC of .464 fired from an M1A-A1.
The cartridge produced a velocity of 1873fps with 1308ft/lbs of energy upon impact.

( As a comparison, 1 170gr 30-30 HOR FTX with a BC of .33 fired thru my 20in bbl Glenfield would have produced a velocity of 1350fps with 690 ft/lbs of energy at the same distance, and under the same atmospheric conditions.)

The difference in drop (provided that both rifles were zeroed at 200yards)......
308 : 37 inches
30-30 : 72 inches

fragout
December 3, 2013, 05:51 PM
He also specifically asked about the 147 grain .308 bullet too but you didn't mention that poor selection just pointed out better options. OP isn't even talking about hunting and has cause the usually bickering about this and that.

1. Almost all deer are shot under 200 yards.
2. .30-30 is a fine deer cartridge out to 200 yards assuming adequate shooter/equipment ability.
3. If you're planning on the possibility of taking longer shots Hornady pointy bullets are probably a good idea.
4. If you're planning on hunting open country or power lines leave the .30-30 at home and bring something else. No such thing as the do all rifle.

Anything else?
======================================================================

Here you go..........

Same rifle as I mentioned before that is chambered in 308. (18.5in bbl)

Ammo = Win (USA) 147gr M80 ball Q3130 (BC = 417)

MV = 2780fps
KE = 2522 ft/lbs

200yards:
Velocity =2366
KE = 1827

Note: All of my figures are not found in some book, but compiled first hand with my own rifles, and equipment, so it doesn't get much more "realistic" than this for me at least.

Note: 147gr M80 is one of the more under rated loads spoken of on the internet. From my first hand experience of witnessing what it can do to hogs here in the states, the stuff works just fine. With that being said, there are better choices available for hunting IMO.

Note: Your probably right in regards to your 4 points quoted above. I wouldn't choose 30-30 as the cartridge for a "do all" rifle either.

My do all cartridge is currently 308 (165gr SGK BTHP to be exact, as this bullet has performed well for me on all species of NA deer, elk, and black bear. )
A Caribou wouldn't stand a chance at 200 yards , provided that the same 165gr bullet mentioned above was placed right. Same goes for 150gr bullets launched from a 308 case.

Float Pilot
December 3, 2013, 06:25 PM
OP isn't even talking about hunting and has cause the usually bickering about this and that.

Hmm, I think he did originally ask about just that... If you look he had edited his original post... The wonders of the internet....



I have a hard time believing a 180 grain .30-06 will not drop a rain deer in his sled tracks. Not to get off topic to much, but the people shooting the rifle must be the worst shots ever.
================================================================

I would agree. If a body cant shoot straight, they need to learn how, and quit blaming it on the cartridge

I am certainly not blaming the cartridges, but many folks whom I have hauled into the bush over the years do not do so swell when it actually comes to making a kill shot. They do OK on the range, and maybe they do OK back down-south on a ranch hunt after somebody drives them out with a golf cart to see a half tame critter. But after making them walk or climb for a few hours, a lot of them mis-judge their range and make weird wounding shots on moving critters.
( Like blowing the lower jaw off a caribou at only 75 yards, or blasting the antler base at 50 yards )
And caribou meat tastes sour if you let them run wounded .

I will only deal with wildlife photographers these days, they end to be less excitable and I can make money with the same Bear, Dall Sheep, mountain goat or Moose over and over all season long.

fragout
December 3, 2013, 06:32 PM
Sounds like a good money maker to me Float Pilot.:)

You nailed it.

Bad shots are bad shots......whatever the reason....... and not the fault of the cartridges they were using.

Ratshooter
December 3, 2013, 06:35 PM
The OP asked about hitting the "Upper Torso" at 200 yards. That to me means he is not talking about shooting deer at 200 yards but hitting a person. When someone is talking about hitting game they usually say "Chest Cavity".

You CAN sight an open sighted 30-30 at 100 yards and then raise the ladder on the rear sight for longer ranges. I have read each step raises the poi in 50 yard increments for each notch. Sighted in for 100 yards on the lowest notch you would need to raise it two notches. Shooting at 200 yards would confirm that the sights are good for that range. Just like the slide on military sights that are graduated for different ranges.

My speer manual shows them getting 2100fps with several loads shooting a 170gr bullet from a 20" barrel. Using a scope so you get the 1 1/2" above the bore and sight in 2" high at 100 yards and you should be zeroed at 150 and 5" low at 200 yards. That shouldn't be too difficult for the average shooter to make hits with at that range. It also shows the velocity at 200 yards to be 1609fps and have 977 pounds of energy remaining. Thats better than what others have posted. And speer used real rifles for their testing, not test barrels.

hatt
December 3, 2013, 07:07 PM
If you deer hunt in woods and protect the homefront the .30-30 would be a fine do all rifle. Handy .308 bolt with lower power scope will accomplish most any task. Only problem is every time the do all rifle threads come up someone expects a gun to be a top notch CQB gun and reach out to 1000 meters. I just nip it in the bud. No do alls. :D

fragout
December 3, 2013, 07:07 PM
Ratshooter's figures are right in the same ballpark as mine, with 1602fps and 969ft/lbs of energy at 200yards.....thru my 20in bbl Glenfield 30-30...via Winchester 170gr Power Points.( BC = .241)
I would be interested in what others have found via their own rifles, ammo, and equipment. (IE a chrono)

Intentionally aiming with a gut shot in mind might explain why Float Pilot guides photographers now, and not hunters.

Maybe it might be wise for average shooters to decrease their maximum effective range IOT consistently place the shot in the vitals when it comes to hunting at least?

Thoughts?

Note: It is probably a good idea to keep this thread concentrated on hunting, and not defense. ( A moderator has already suggested this advice.)

fragout
December 3, 2013, 07:28 PM
If you deer hunt in woods and protect the homefront the .30-30 would be a fine do all rifle. Handy .308 bolt with lower power scope will accomplish most any task. Only problem is every time the do all rifle threads come up someone expects a gun to be a top notch CQB gun and reach out to 1000 meters. I just nip it in the bud. No do alls.
==============================================================================================

Understandable.:)

Float Pilot
December 3, 2013, 08:43 PM
Fragout I just tried to send you a PM with a photo attached but I can't figure out how to do that...

fragout
December 3, 2013, 09:59 PM
Float Pilot.

PM received, and reply sent.

My email aint running right now, but the wife plans to work on it tonight while I'm out hunting hogs.

Take care.

HKGuns
December 3, 2013, 10:06 PM
Cartridge dependent energy @200 yards.

150 gr .308 = 1850

150 gr 30-30 = 859

You decide.

Eb1
December 3, 2013, 10:57 PM
I am with CraigC.

I have hunted with a 30-30 for 30 years. I even load it with 125 grain FNHP from Sierra now instead of shooting 150 - 170 grain soft points.
The only reason I bought my .25-06 was because I started hunting huge pastors where my 30-30 would not allow me to hit the fence lines from the big pine tree in the middle of the field.

Good thing I did as there was an oak tree 150 yards from my stand, and 150 yards from the fence. Well just so happened a couple critters never came to the oak tree, and after a long wait for them to come closer the .25-06 reached out to 300 yards and dropped both with two shots.

If I had to choose a 30-30 over a .308 for my 200 yard animal get'r/personal defense rifle. I'd go 30-30 9 times out of 10 because you just never can be 100% sure you wouldn't need a 300 yard rifle, but with the 30-30 you can do it all withing 200 yards. Be it elk, hog, deer, coyote, p-dogs, intruders of the two legged kind.
If you hand load then you can load the 110 grain half jacketed HP from Speer for some serious explosive results @ 2500 fps using H335, and they are very accurate, but you want to know about the 170 grain .308 bullets from both guns.

My favorite 170 grain for the 30-30 is the blue box Federals. Second would be the 170 grain Power Points from Winchester. They seem to be the most accurate for factory ammo.

Anyway back the question from the OP. The lever action from Marlin can be topped off where the Winchester has a flaw in its loading gate IMO. Also the lever gun can be cycled much faster and keep target acquisition IMO over the platforms the .308 Winchester is shot out of.

If a bread basket shot is made with a 170 grain soft point hunting round from a 30-30 or .308 Win you are going to have the same results. Death.

P.S. What is fun is loading 170 grain .308 30-30 flat nose bullets in a .308 or a .30-06 at speeds past 2500 fps. More along the lines of 2700-2800 fps. Talk about an instant ballistic tip. The soft lead nose made to flatten at 30-30 speeds just turns itself inside out with tons of "energy" and "explosive" results.

Float Pilot
December 4, 2013, 12:48 AM
I started hunting huge pastors

Headline: Fat preachers disappear in woods! Congregations devastated.

Eb1
December 4, 2013, 02:14 AM
haha. Pastures. Sorry. I am tired. Unexpected death in the family and not much sleep. Whoa. Man, that was to much.

hatt
December 4, 2013, 08:14 AM
Cartridge dependent energy @200 yards.

150 gr .308 = 1850

150 gr 30-30 = 859

You decide.

165 gr .30-378 = 3435

Now what? If more is better...

Eb1
December 4, 2013, 09:21 AM
I got a buddy who uses a 336 Texan, and he kills deer every year from 200 yards to 10 yards since I have known him.
That rifle is the most accurate lever action rifle I have ever shot. At 100 yards it will, and I promise, put three shots in one hole if you can hold that tight. I have done it, he has done it, and he has done it often.

You can lever through the magazine in seconds where a bolt action, i.e. .308 Win, would take a while. If you could find a .307 Win then that'd be a different story all together, but you still have the loading gate problem where the next round backs up into the receiver.

I say 30-30 Marlin from 1972-1989, used for a buck-fifty please, Pat.

Lloyd Smale
December 4, 2013, 09:28 AM
Id say if you shot 10 deer at a 100 yards youd see very little difference. I also say that if you shot 10 at 200 youd see the 308 kill quicker.

2004boss
December 4, 2013, 09:44 AM
My ca10 308 cycles a bit faster than my 30-30 marlin. I think the 30-30 is a great round however I don't believe it can hold a candle to the 308. With 175gr 200yd zero I'm 1" high at 50yd and 2" high at 100yd about 10" low at 300yd 170gr 30-30 gets about 2" at 50 4" at 100 and -16" at 300.

I think the 308 is a much more effective round. Then there's ammo availability and variety. But its just my opinion.

Arkansas Paul
December 4, 2013, 09:46 AM
FloatPilot beat me to it. I was gonna ask if your beef was with preachers or fat people in general. :)

I even load it with 125 grain FNHP from Sierra now instead of shooting 150 - 170 grain soft points.

I have heard nothing but wonderful things about that bullet. They say it really changes the way the .30-30 performs on deer sized game.

HKGuns
December 4, 2013, 06:39 PM
165 gr .30-378 = 3435

Now what? If more is better...

Wow, you sure got me. Funny how that wasn't the damn question and I stated facts and told the OP to decide based on the data presented. Where in my post did I say more is better?

Now go away and stay on topic and try harder to actually add something to the actual topic next time.

Casefull
December 4, 2013, 10:23 PM
The 308 is hands down the better round...funny how hard people will try to prove the unproveable. I hunt with both rounds.

Eb1
December 5, 2013, 03:28 AM
AP, being that we're neighbors there enough of both.

hatt
December 5, 2013, 09:27 AM
Wow, you sure got me. Funny how that wasn't the damn question and I stated facts and told the OP to decide based on the data presented. Where in my post did I say more is better?

Now go away and stay on topic and try harder to actually add something to the actual topic next time.
Had you read through the thread you'd observed a company makes a bullet just for this discussion.

mdauben
December 5, 2013, 10:38 AM
If I needed a gun for ranges out to 200 yards, I would go with the .308 every time. The .30-30 is a great round for close-in hunting, but IMO is a 150 yard deer cartridge. At that range (200 yards) the trajectory is starting to drop and the bullet energy is becoming marginal for deer sized game.

Not saying it won't kill one at 200 yards, but its not ideal when there are so many other, better choices.

CraigC
December 5, 2013, 11:08 AM
The .44Mag will get you to 125yds with a handgun or 150yds with a rifle. I think the old .30WCF is good for more than that.

mdauben
December 5, 2013, 06:25 PM
The .44Mag will get you to 125yds with a handgun or 150yds with a rifle. I think the old .30WCF is good for more than that.
I guess its in that grey area where the hunter has to decide what he will accept. I consider the energy of a .44 mag out of a rifle at 100 yards to at the edge of what I deem acceptable for deer. I would certainly never use it beyond that range. Again, I am certainly not saying you can't kill a deer at 150 yards with a .44 carbine, but I don't consider it optimal. If you have a choice I would use something better.

CraigC
December 5, 2013, 06:46 PM
Even if you believe in energy, which I do not, a .44 rifle will have the same velocity at 150yds as a revolver at the muzzle. A good Keith bullet at 900fps will penetrate end to end on any deer that walks. Even at handgun velocities it doesn't drop that low until 250-300yds. The .44 does not want for killing ability until way beyond any shooter's ability to place a bullet accurately.

The world will be a better place when shooters stop believing the energy myth.

Art Eatman
December 5, 2013, 07:37 PM
This has become more roundyround than it has for the original question. Nuff fer now. :)

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