Disruptions to powder supply - AP70N


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Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 02:28 AM
If AP70N is what I think it is hopefully we will see some at the start of 2014.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/news.asp

Understatement of the year....
"ADI Powders are aware that some of our customers may have lately experienced some difficulty in getting hold of some of our powders. We are aware of some temporary disruptions to powder supply at the moment, resulting in a few localised powder shortages"


Ouch!, the dreaded loacalised powder shortage rears its ugly head.
:banghead:

Not trying to bad mouth ADI or anyone I just thought the end of statement was funny.

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ArchAngelCD
December 7, 2013, 03:51 AM
That company is speaking to their home base in Australia, not to America.

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 04:01 AM
Yes, I know they were talking about ADI powders in Australia.
Just thought it was kind of funny. It seems that we have the same situation here in the US with most suppliers and most powders so I was just laughing at the localised powder shortage part. There may not be a "shortage" there may just be a huge increase in demand that is outstripping supply making powder difficult to find.
Now if I just had a .50BMG (and they were legal in California) I could find powder for it.:)
Maybe I have not been looking for powder in the right places.:banghead:

USSR
December 7, 2013, 08:20 AM
There may not be a "shortage" there may just be a huge increase in demand that is outstripping supply making powder difficult to find.

Ya think?:rolleyes:

Don

W.E.G.
December 7, 2013, 09:44 AM
Once again, the advice is to acquire a THREE-YEAR supply of the ammo components that you know you will actually use.

This will eliminate personal shortages in almost every instance.

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 11:34 AM
For those of us who shoot quite a bit there might be legal (as well as monetary:eek:)issues about a three year supply. Some places NFPA 495 applies and limits you for example to storing 10000 primers and 20 lbs of powder in residences. Some places are even more restrictive.

(Note: I am not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday inn last night)

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm?page=pubs
See items 200 and 201
I wish I it was possible for me to have a three year supply.

Maybe if I win the Power Ball one day....

sexybeast
December 7, 2013, 11:58 AM
Does anyone know what AD70 is? Is it sold here?
There has been some discussioni of this on another thread.
I heard that it was Universal and it was produced by ADI for Hodgdon to sell her in the states.

Rule3
December 7, 2013, 12:03 PM
Does anyone know what AD70 is? Is it sold here?
There has been some discussioni of this on another thread.
I heard that it was Universal and it was produced by ADI for Hodgdon to sell her in the states.

This chart shows "equivalents" similar but NOT the same

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

morcey2
December 7, 2013, 12:03 PM
According to the hodgdon MSDS, AP70N is Universal Clays. I know that the clays line was disrupted by a fire at ADI earlier this year an I think this is a continuation of that delay.... although the announcement was made in August so things may be improving since then.

MSDS: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/MSDS%20Files/Smokeless/Hodgdon/Clays%20Family/Universal%20Clays.pdf

Matt

sexybeast
December 7, 2013, 01:19 PM
MSDS: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/MSDS%20...al%20Clays.pdf



Won't open and wants me to download a program.
Feel free to copy and paste. I would like to read it.
I did read the load data on ADI's site and I would be suprised if they were the same powders.

Rule3
December 7, 2013, 01:57 PM
Won't open and wants me to download a program.
Feel free to copy and paste. I would like to read it.
I did read the load data on ADI's site and I would be suprised if they were the same powders.

Can't cut and paste a PDF it probably wants you to download Adobe Reader so you can read PDF files.

Adobe Reader is safe and a good thing to download.

It says the same equvilant as the link I posted above about clays, universal

ngnrd
December 7, 2013, 02:02 PM
Here's a quick screenshot of part of the first page of the MSDS for AP70N.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac157/ak-angler/Misc/feaf262d-4f89-4361-bb82-18c876870076_zps5457f492.jpg

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 03:01 PM
Rats, zipped it up but it is still above the attachment size.

Be careful installing Acrobat sometimes it wants to install other stuff as well.
Note: Adobe reader is fairly safe but bad .pdfs can and do exist, And Adobe flash is nice, but flash and Java are responsible for creating a lot of security holes,
at least in Windows in my opinion.

Sorry this is off thread.

W.E.G.
December 7, 2013, 03:22 PM
Some places NFPA 495 applies and limits you

There's always a way to justify not being prepared, eh?

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 03:48 PM
Ah yes, if there are any legal issues involved.

I would love to have a bomb proof bunker on a couple of hundred square miles of land with lots of food, water, gas, medical supplies, guns and ammo, where I could just walk outside and shoot, just like I would prefer not to have to go to work on Monday but for most of us there are monetary considerations, if you don't have to worry about money I am happy for you.

I will leave it there as I don't want this to deteriorate and deviate from the High Road.

sexybeast
December 7, 2013, 03:53 PM
Well if this is true there is still a problem. If this is correct and Universal is made by ADI which they call AD70 then their load data is messed up.
They call for a max load of 5.5 behind a 140gr lead bullet in 40s&w.
I was loading 5.4 and they were soft and light. They also wrote that they would be doing 1150fps and I observed 1k fps less than that.
These loads they are listing are "very" light and they are calling them max. I have my doubts still.

Rule3
December 7, 2013, 04:16 PM
Download Adobe Reader it is perfectly safe, just do not download the tool bar it may try to attach.

You can look up Varget powder which made by ADI and known as AR2208 but again it is the same as the first chart from ADI

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 04:26 PM
I see the same sort of thing in 9mm data and I am sure there are more for other powders/cartridges as well)
ADI
L 125 AP70N 3.5 980 27,000 psi 3.8 1,055 33,050 psi
Hodgdon
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon Universal .356" 1.125" 3.8 993 24,400 CUP 4.3 1096 31,300 CUP
Hodgdons start is ADIs max!

I do see in this case that one pressure is in CUP and the other is PSI, sure wish we could get everything in PSI so we could compare apples to apples not oranges.

ADI does not show an OAL and this might be the difference or it might be due to different 125 gr lead bullets.
IF AP70N is Universal hopefully we will see more of it soon.
Right now it is one of my favorites but I have not been able to try HP38/W231 yet, even though someone here kindly offered me some.

Not to be disagreeable and leave The High Road, but to say Acrobat Reader is perfectly safe is like saying reloading is perfectly safe.
If a person is careful yes they are, if not bad things can happen. It might be better to say Acrobat reader itself is somewhat safe (However, I have in my experience with 1000s of machines seen it conflict with other software and cause issues on occasion, but not often) However .pdfs are not "perfectly safe" as they can contain viruses, just like Word/Excell and other format files for example. Just Google/BING/whatever search PDF + virus. I can say that I have seen infected PDFs found by antivirus software, antivirus in a corparate enviroment is part of my job. If you don't believe legitimate software can be unsafe look up exploits on Flash and Java two very commonly used pieces of software.
For example.

http://www.kaspersky.com/about/news/virus/2013/is_there_any_protection_against_java_exploits
Adobe reader is mentioned there.

I use Adobe reader ( and have also used the full version) and I consider Acrobat Reader a necesary evil like taxes.

PS I hope I don't get a warning for using a nasty word like taxes.....

Walkalong
December 7, 2013, 04:34 PM
This it?

sexybeast
December 7, 2013, 04:39 PM
L 125 AP70N 3.5 980 27,000 psi 3.8 1,055 33,050 psi


I was just reading this myself. No way 3.8 of Universal is 33k psi!
I agree with the load, I loaded 3.7gr behind a 125gr lead rn. Good and soft and accurate load, But I also agree with Hogdons that its closer to 25k psi.
Something is very wrong with their data and pressure specs.

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 05:05 PM
sexybeast I followed your advice and backed down from 4 to 3.8 and to me the 3.8 seems soft, way softer than factory S+B. 3.8 shoots well for me though so why push it. I had went up to 4.3 (Hodgdons max with a 125 lead TCN) which according to ADI would be way over.

Maybe something to do with being on the bottom half of the world, I understand things are strange there, water drains the wrong way, there are prams, lorries, car parks , spanners etc.:)
And yes that is the MSDS and it appears to be legit from imrpowder. (Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester powder)

Lets hope walkalong is not being:evil: and trying to slip us a bad pdf!:neener:

ngnrd
December 7, 2013, 05:20 PM
For those of us who shoot quite a bit there might be legal (as well as monetary:eek:)issues about a three year supply. Some places NFPA 495 applies and limits you for example to storing 10000 primers and 20 lbs of powder in residences. ....

Sorry. You have been given bad information. You can take my word for it, or you can look it up here (http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages) if you want (you'll have to register to access the NFPA standards, but it's free).

NFPA 495-14.5.6 For small arms primers classified by the U.S. DOT as 1.4S, the limit stored in residences shall be permitted to be increased to 150,000.

NFPA 495-14.3.7.2 Quantities [of smokeless propellants] exceeding 9.1 kg (20 lb), but not exceeding 22.7 kg (50 lb), shall be permitted to be stored in residences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 25.4mm (1 in.) nominal thickness.

I just looked up the MSDS's for Federal (http://www.federalpremium.com/downloads/msds/F4001_Small_Arms_Primers.pdf) and CCI (http://glarp.atk.com/2008/msds/Primers.pdf) primers, and they are both listed as 1.4S. So the 150k primer limit stated in NFPA 495-14.5.6 would apply. (I didn't actually look up the other brands, but I assume that they will be the same.)

So, that leaves the NFPA 495-14.3.7.2 requirement of building a storage box from 1-inch thick wood in order to be able to store 50# of powder. That's enough powder for more than 7500 rounds of 308 (at 45gr/round), or about 14,000 rounds of 223 (at 25gr/round), or 50,000 rounds of 45ACP (at 7gr/round). And, this would be in addition to whatever quantity of completed ammunition you may have on hand. So, I'm sure there are folks out there that shoot more than this in the span of a year or two. But, for the VAST majority of hand loaders, building a wooden box just doesn't seem to me to be an overly onerous requirement in order to be prepared for the next shortage.

NOTE: NFPA 495-14.3.7.1 says you can have up to 20# of powder in its original containers - without the requirement to store it all in a wooden box.

Walkalong
December 7, 2013, 05:30 PM
Big wooden box (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=158872&d=1329055438), with a way for the pressure to release.

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 05:35 PM
Thanks, interesting.
SAAMI shows NFPA 11-5.4 as showing 10000. Also shows 25000 in a car but only 10000 in a residence, that does not make sense. I was told by a vendor (as I recall) when inquiring how many could be shipped at one time that the limit was 65lbs. Don't have any idea if that is correct, does not seem right. That would be a WHOLE bunch of primers and I would imagine 65lbs would make a sizable bang to say the least if something went wrong.

And yes I saw the box requirement. It's interesting because it says 1" wood walls, does not say what kind of wood, balsa, pine, oak etc. but requires a "weak" wall for venting
How weak is "weak", certainly we don't want to create bomb storing powder by containing it to tightly. I know balsa is streching it but just using it for an example. I would be interested if someone had an "approved" design. Might not be a bad idea even if you did not have more than 20lbs but had more than a couiple.

I will do more follow up research.
It was certainly not my intention to present inaccurate information .

Dudedog
December 7, 2013, 07:34 PM
Thanks for the pic Walkalong that gives me some ideas. The cutout/hole is the "weak" side?

Walkalong
December 7, 2013, 09:25 PM
The weak side is the top, the cut gives the gas a head start at getting out.

1SOW
December 7, 2013, 09:57 PM
Another smaller version WITH self-closing doors and all rabbeted joints using screws, not glued. The reason for rabbeted joints using screws and not glue, IS to let the pressure out. Sudden pressure will lift the doors open, but they reclose to discourage flames.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TQE-C7Q81_Y/UGOR5UNKkwI/AAAAAAAABZM/jsnNg7iFEo8/s128/S4300016.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CliKjvq6bxk/UGOR6Zy5iVI/AAAAAAAABZc/Gt9dka1kEq8/s128/S4300017.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yaGpLt-cDU8/UGOR7vmzHDI/AAAAAAAABZo/zLWUuVyuJAw/s128/S4300019.JPG

sexybeast
December 7, 2013, 10:42 PM
Just how did this go from an Australian powder AP70 and loads in 40s&w and 9mm to wood boxes?

docsleepy
December 7, 2013, 10:44 PM
NFPA may or may not be adopted by the authorities. Florida has a limit in state law for powder; it is above 100 lbs. I think it is 125 or 150; must be in a wooden box with "nominal" 1" thickness. (I added 1/2" plywood to a 1/2" footlocker). I think I decided that Florida's primer limit might be 10,000 per structure. I'm not sure on that.

Dudedog
December 8, 2013, 03:16 AM
My fault I sidetracked my own thread commenting on the three year supply and Acrobat(which is way off topic).
Hopefully I did not upset anyone there.
I do appreciate the info on the side track however.
I should probably check for powder storage threads or start a new one.

If AP70N is Universal that might mean that possibly we will see some more Universal soon as the supply of it seemed to dry up before some other powders IMO. I don't know what % of the pistol/shotgun market Universal had but say if it was 5% (a number I just made up) then other powders for the same apps have to cover that 5%. However I believe it is just a case of demand outstripping supply right now in reloading components.

I headed this way because someone else was looking for load data for AS30N, AP50N, AP70N and AP100N and had I had heard that Hodgdon imported ADI AP70N as one of their powders (and possibly others) and I got sidetracked on it because I found the topic interesting.

I know finding the best powder is one of the benefits of reloading, I just find it frustrating to have to change when I had something I liked and worked well for me in the 4 pistol calibers that I load.
I enjoy reloading but I enjoy shooting too, and the supply issue is a pain.:(

BTW nice looking storage box 1SOW.
Dad was in the Army for 30 years (Korea, 3 tours in Vietnam) so I happen to have some footlockers.

dickttx
December 8, 2013, 12:30 PM
Has anyone ever bought AP70N in the US?
Probably not, so no problem. Just buy Universal.:D

ReloaderFred
December 8, 2013, 01:06 PM
It really doesn't matter what kind of wood your box (if you choose to build one) is made from. The idea of the wood is it chars as heat is applied, and the resulting char has an insulating effect. Wood doesn't transfer heat like metal does, so it slows down how fast the contents get hot enough to burn.

You may also want to watch this video: http://youtu.be/3SlOXowwC4c

It dispels some of the hype about ammunition and fire.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Rule3
December 8, 2013, 02:00 PM
NFPA may or may not be adopted by the authorities. Florida has a limit in state law for powder; it is above 100 lbs. I think it is 125 or 150; must be in a wooden box with "nominal" 1" thickness. (I added 1/2" plywood to a 1/2" footlocker). I think I decided that Florida's primer limit might be 10,000 per structure. I'm not sure on that.

My house is concrete block but has drywall interior. I consider it a big box. They use drywall to fireproof safes,;)

Dudedog
December 8, 2013, 02:20 PM
I have seen the video before, and think its great. Sad to see all that ammo burned! (but for a good cause) Most of my supplies are stored in a locked shed seperate from the house (my reloading shed:))so the odds are the house could burn down and the shed would be fine. I have always wondered about storing ammo in military metal ammo cans. They seem like they would allow pressure to build to a fairly high level before something failed, but I am guessing that maybe the US Military knows what it is doing. I think maybe I will start a thread on this and see what others think.

coonan1911
December 9, 2013, 10:34 AM
Hi
Just made a comment about this under POWDER SHORTAGE ( MarchBoom 703 )
Hodgdon Material Safety Data Sheet April 2009 maybe interesting???
Regards
coonan1911

orionengnr
December 9, 2013, 06:20 PM
Lots of good info in this thread.
Special thanks to Walkalong and 1SOW for the pics....something to think about.
My father was a carpenter by trade, but I did not inherit the woodworking gene (however, I somehow ended up with a pretty good aptitude for all things mechanical...perhaps mom and the milkman...never mind. And yes, I am that old). :)

Ahem...anyhow...perhaps one or more of you woodworking genii could market the plans, or cut the parts and sell a ready-to-assemble kit?

You would have at least one customer right here. I can screw it together and stain it. :)

And I'd bet I'm not the only one.

Hey, could be a good source of supplemental income. Who wouldn't welcome that?

(subscribing)

docsleepy
December 9, 2013, 06:47 PM
You can probably do it yourself. If you wish to store powder, I stronlgy suggest using 1" plywood and don't make it too big -- it will be heavy heavy heavy.

Hinges on the back, padlock hasp on the front, don't get to fancy.

Alternate is to go to an army navy store, buy surplus one, and face the sides with additional plywood. That is what I did.

dickttx
December 9, 2013, 06:54 PM
I had purchased several of the wooden military footlockers at estate sales for $5 each. Regrettably, when we moved recently I had to put them in our estate sale. Probably got less than that for them.

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