"Group of US Soldiers Pose with their M1911 Pitstols"


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CmdrSlander
December 7, 2013, 02:44 PM
http://i.imgur.com/3rpH2xS.jpg

Just found this elsewhere on the internet, I thought you all would appreciate it.

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M2 Carbine
December 7, 2013, 02:47 PM
Pretty cool.)

zxcvbob
December 7, 2013, 02:51 PM
Trigger-finger control is not great. ;)

CmdrSlander
December 7, 2013, 02:54 PM
Trigger-finger control is not great. ;)
IIRC, that and the other commonplace rules of gun safety were really only popularized among firearms users in the 1970s - 80s by the folks at Gunsite and other training centers who got tired of seeing people die in accidents, and to mitigate liability at their facilities.

silicosys4
December 7, 2013, 02:54 PM
Trigger-finger control is not great. ;)

Yea, I count three guys who dont have their fingers on the trigger.
Muzzle control isn't so good either...finger on the trigger and muzzle pointed at the head of the man next to you...
Neat picture though! certainly shows how attitudes have changed

ambidextrous1
December 7, 2013, 02:56 PM
I don't think those men are "officers", as the caption stated. Their caps don't have the metallic braid.

In WWI, the Army supplied everyone - officers and enlisted - in the European Theater with a 1911.

Jim Watson
December 7, 2013, 03:08 PM
Some of those guys look like they had just as soon shoot you as not, too.

LeonCarr
December 7, 2013, 03:18 PM
Looks like about WWI or thereabouts...they are posing with their new-fangled self loading pistols :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

el Godfather
December 7, 2013, 04:20 PM
Nice picture and subtle reminder of times when 1911 was the thing.

cocojo
December 7, 2013, 04:26 PM
I guess they weren't aware back then about finger out of the trigger until ready to shoot. All in all nice photo.

BYJO4
December 7, 2013, 04:45 PM
I always enjoy old pics like this showing military arms.

mokin
December 7, 2013, 04:46 PM
Neat picture. Back in my teens I spent an afternoon with a friend of my Grandfather's who was an Army veteran who pursued Poncho Villa and later fought in WWI. That was a special afternoon.

Hangingrock
December 7, 2013, 04:52 PM
In WWI, the Army supplied everyone - officers and enlisted - in the European Theater with a 1911. That statement is counter to the government having S&W and Colt produce revolvers in 45ACP to supplement the short fall in 1911 pistols.

CapnMac
December 7, 2013, 06:01 PM
It's an odd grouping in a way. Only two of those fellows are wearing pistol belts. One of those has a whistle chain, so, he's likely the squad/section leader.

The rest are wearing versions of the modified cartridge belts to carry a pistol magazine pocket. Mills wove belts a pockets short; existing belts had a pocket removed, or an extension of regular belt width added on.; or the purpose-made mounted belt.

Given the lack of suspenders, I'm tempted to conclude that this is a cavalry or mounted unit. They could be a mounted MG or field gun unit--the TO&E for those units would include sidearms for all hands.

But, that's just a guess. Most of the "official" issue for US forces in WWI was not actually ready until 1919. The change from mounted infantry to mechanized infantry complicated the neat, orderly, organized QM Tables.

Fishbed77
December 7, 2013, 06:14 PM
Nice picture and subtle reminder of times when 1911 was the thing.

I wasn't aware that it isn't still "the thing." :D

Rollis R. Karvellis
December 7, 2013, 06:46 PM
Ah the good old days when life was simpler, and everybody on the internet only argued about how stupid it was for the government to change from the great, and wonderful .38, to that stupid .45 ACP.

LNK
December 7, 2013, 06:47 PM
At least the hammers are down....:)

Maybe safeties are on also...

LNK

jr_roosa
December 7, 2013, 06:52 PM
Maybe safeties are on also...

Nope.

-J.

DT Guy
December 7, 2013, 06:53 PM
If the hammers are down and the safeties are on, their guns are broken. :)


Larry

LNK
December 7, 2013, 06:58 PM
You would think I would know that about the hammer and safety. Next time I will engage brain before I type...:banghead:

LNK

Sagetown
December 7, 2013, 07:08 PM
Looks like they had just been issued these arms and are showing them off.
Some of the boys act like they've never handled a pistol in their life. A little handgun training needs to be given from the looks of things too.:cool:

dfariswheel
December 7, 2013, 07:37 PM
I suspect they are not a Cavalry unit.
The holsters are the Model 1916 Dismounted (Infantry) holster.
The Cavalry would most likely be issued the Model 1912 Mounted (Cavalry) holster.

351 WINCHESTER
December 7, 2013, 08:01 PM
My Grandfather was issued a 1911 starting with the Mexican Campaign and WWI under General Pershing. He was awarded 2 silver stars, but I don't know what for as he never talked about war. He did tell me that after he was discharged after the Great War he still had his .45 and he took it back and turned it in. My Dad told me that he had a lot of horses shot out from underneath him. He lived to be almost 92 which really surprised everyone since he had smoked for so long, non filtered cigs. He used to take me fishing to his secret fishing hole in Pa. He was in the 109th Pa. Field Arty Penn. I have about half his medals and my cousin has the other half. Very crude dog tags, all hand stamped and made of alum.

twofifty
December 7, 2013, 08:53 PM
Any idea what the background might be? Rhine? Danube?

Looks like there's a paddlewheeler which you'd think they didn't have on European rivers.

0to60
December 7, 2013, 09:20 PM
Any idea what the background might be? Rhine? Danube?

Looks like there's a paddlewheeler which you'd think they didn't have on European rivers.
Looks like a backdrop. Look at the smoke coming from the paddlewheeler. It doesn't look real.

0to60
December 7, 2013, 09:23 PM
The guy in the middle row all the way to the right looks psychotic. These days, I'm guessing he would be pulled from active duty and sent to PTSD therapy.

wally
December 7, 2013, 09:27 PM
Trigger-finger control is not great.

Shocked that it took two replies to mention this.

ratt_finkel
December 9, 2013, 11:39 AM
Yeah, that is definitely an artificial backdrop. Great picture though! I love this stuff!

The guy on the bottom left looks downright terrified LOL

Double Naught Spy
December 9, 2013, 11:55 AM
I guess they weren't aware back then about finger out of the trigger until ready to shoot.

You could also add that they should not be pointing their guns at anything they didn't intend to destroy and I would be willing to bet they weren't willing to destroy whatever is high and left of each one of them.

I think they were aware back then that a 1911 with the hammer down cannot be discharged by pulling the trigger. Note that the hammers are all down. They were aware that the guns were "safe" even if we don't consider that to be true today. As per the rule of the day to prevent NDs, the guns were possibly loaded with a magazine, but a round was not chambered. The gun won't discharge with a round not in the chamber. So there is no issue of safety per the rules of the period.

You can't expect people nearly 100 years ago to be necessarily in compliance with safety rules that came later anymore than you can expect people today to be fully compliant with safety rules that come in the future.

Nifty picture.

Arkansas Paul
December 9, 2013, 12:23 PM
they are posing with their new-fangled self loading pistols .

Yeah, with their new fangled smokeless powder. A man can't even lay down a proper smoke screen with that crap.

Hurryin' Hoosier
December 10, 2013, 04:49 PM
The background is obviously a painting or enlarged picture of some 'burg in Europe. Given their lack of stripes, I'm guessing this might very well have been done in some photo studio in the States or, maybe, in Paris. Only two Corporals in the bunch, and those two were the only ones with combat stripes on their right sleeves.

Cool picture, nevertheless.

ClickClickD'oh
December 10, 2013, 04:59 PM
2 (bookends) corporals and a bunch of privates. Too bad we can't see what color the V devices on their sleeves are.

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 05:06 PM
The backdrop is most certainly:

Koblenz Germany viewed from the east bank of the Rhine. Coblenz as we spell it was the US Occupation HQ in 1919. HQ centered in Eherenbreitstein Castle. View to west is Koblenz which was named Confluence by Romans (confluence of Moselle and Rhine rivers.) The intersection where they met is called "Die Deutsche Eck" (the German corner) which was home to a huge equestrian statue of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Statue is visible in the painting.

This scene would have been the "ultimate" background shot of the conquering Doughboy heroes.

I went there many times in the 1980's (Armor Officer 3rd Armored Division-Gelnhausen) because it was/is the home of the Wehrtechnik (War Technology) Museum and the best military history bookstore in Germany.

Great Memories!

My wife made an independent id of the images as well. She was Spearhead soldier as well!

Sagetown
December 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
I noticed the no stripes on the rank and file too. After I posted earlier, I figured they were some Basic Trainees getting to hold their new weapons for the first time.

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
These guys would have survived WW1. After Armistice Allied forces marched into zones of occupations in Germany. British=Cologne, US=Coblenz, and French=Mainz. US and Brits left their zones early as they softened on Germany. French had to be pryed out.

These guys were the lucky ones and located in a cake assignment. Doughboys stuck in France awaiting transport back to USA werenot so lucky.

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 05:23 PM
Notice feet of men on right are in a puddle - photo taken outside!

Ash
December 10, 2013, 05:33 PM
One of them is a PFC, you can see his stripe.

Hurryin' Hoosier
December 10, 2013, 06:06 PM
Following further review, I do a see third Corporal. I don't see any PFCs, though. And I guess there are a couple more with combat chevrons.

Hurryin' Hoosier
December 10, 2013, 06:07 PM
The backdrop is most certainly:

Koblenz Germany viewed from the east bank of the Rhine. Coblenz as we spell it was the US Occupation HQ in 1919. HQ centered in Eherenbreitstein Castle. View to west is Koblenz which was named Confluence by Romans (confluence of Moselle and Rhine rivers.) The intersection where they met is called "Die Deutsche Eck" (the German corner) which was home to a huge equestrian statue of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Statue is visible in the painting.

This scene would have been the "ultimate" background shot of the conquering Doughboy heroes.

I went there many times in the 1980's (Armor Officer 3rd Armored Division-Gelnhausen) because it was/is the home of the Wehrtechnik (War Technology) Museum and the best military history bookstore in Germany.

Great Memories!

My wife made an independent id of the images as well. She was Spearhead soldier as well!
Ausgezeichnet!

tarosean
December 10, 2013, 06:34 PM
Notice feet of men on right are in a puddle - photo taken outside!

Yes but you can clearly see the backdrop line from the background, right above the man on the far rights stripes.

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 06:39 PM
Background is a painted backdrop - no doubt. Old water stains also visible. Looks like it was pretty old in 1919 w/the paddle wheelers.

Vern Humphrey
December 10, 2013, 06:44 PM
I don't think those men are "officers", as the caption stated. Their caps don't have the metallic braid.

The round collar disks identify them as enlisted men. In addition the single individuals to left and right are respectively a corporal and a sergeant -- and each one has wound stripe (precursor to the Purple Heart.)

In WWI, the Army supplied everyone - officers and enlisted - in the European Theater with a 1911.
Or tried to -- the M1917 revolvers were issued as a substitute.

Ankeny
December 10, 2013, 07:08 PM
Another group of soldiers with thier new fangled 1911 pistols. I guess what goes around comes around.
http://www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/marines.jpg

twofifty
December 10, 2013, 08:07 PM
The backdrop is most certainly:

Koblenz Germany viewed from the east bank of the Rhine. Coblenz as we spell it was the US Occupation HQ in 1919. HQ centered in Eherenbreitstein Castle. View to west is Koblenz which was named Confluence by Romans (confluence of Moselle and Rhine rivers.) The intersection where they met is called "Die Deutsche Eck" (the German corner) which was home to a huge equestrian statue of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Statue is visible in the painting.

This scene would have been the "ultimate" background shot of the conquering Doughboy heroes.

I went there many times in the 1980's (Armor Officer 3rd Armored Division-Gelnhausen) because it was/is the home of the Wehrtechnik (War Technology) Museum and the best military history bookstore in Germany.

Great Memories!

My wife made an independent id of the images as well. She was Spearhead soldier as well!
Thanks for clarifying that 3gunEric.

To the others, look up Koblenz and Deutsche Eck in Wikipedia
to see contemporary and historic pictures of the town featured in the doughboy's class photo.

The statue of Kaiser Wilhelm (dark blob on pedestal near confluence, right side background) was blown up in 1945, and replaced decades later.

Very cool of the OP to have found & posted this picture.

stressed
December 10, 2013, 08:14 PM
IIRC, that and the other commonplace rules of gun safety were really only popularized among firearms users in the 1970s - 80s by the folks at Gunsite and other training centers who got tired of seeing people die in accidents, and to mitigate liability at their facilities.
This.

It wasn't uncommon to see a soldier firing a subgun from the hip with the stock folded if it could be in WWII as well, something that would sound ridiculous to even try today.

RetiredUSNChief
December 10, 2013, 08:19 PM
Looks like a backdrop. Look at the smoke coming from the paddlewheeler. It doesn't look real.

It is a backdrop. You can easily tell this by a variety of means, not the least of which is the board to which the hedge scene in front of it is sewn. You can clearly see the stitching/seam to the left of the left most soldier and, if you look in the gap between him and the other two soldiers next to him, you can see the board where the hedge was not sewn over or had come loose.

The picture itself is a flat, two-dimensional image just behind this flowery hedge drop which you can also see a seam in on the far right side of the picture.

As for the comments about safety and such...come on, folks! Different times, different standards, different training. I work at a shipyard and there are some places around here which have pictures of shipyard workers from decades ago working topside on ships in drydock...not only no safety shoes, but no shoes at all, standing topside on a ship with no safety rigging to keep people from falling 50 feet into the drydock, no safety lanyards for fall protection when working aloft, sitting on steel beams up high on cranes eating their lunches with no fall protection...

:scrutiny:

Roadkill
December 10, 2013, 09:42 PM
This is a 1918, I still shoot it.

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=786443&size=1

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=786444&size=1

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=786445&size=1

gc70
December 11, 2013, 04:54 AM
The round collar disks identify them as enlisted men. In addition the single individuals to left and right are respectively a corporal and a sergeant -- and each one has wound stripe (precursor to the Purple Heart.)

I can't make out the third stripe on the man on the right, but the men at both ends are the only ones with whistle lanyards and pistol belts. The man at the back left may have rank stripes on his right sleeve, or it may be a trick of lighting. At any rate, none of the men have the sleeve cuff braid that would indicate an officer.

Three of the men have wound chevrons on their lower right sleeves - the men on each end and the man at center-right in the back.

Two of the five men on the front row have overseas chevrons on their lower left sleeves.

Two other interesting things about the picture. None of the men appear to have unit patches on their left shoulders and all but one of the holsters have leg ties that are still neatly wrapped as they would have been issued.

Double Naught Spy
December 11, 2013, 07:32 AM
To the others, look up Koblenz and Deutsche Eck in Wikipedia
to see contemporary and historic pictures of the town featured in the doughboy's class photo.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFile%3AKoblenz_im_Buga-Jahr_2011_-_Festung_Ehrenbreitstein_45.jpg

First pic. You can see the primary building and bridge towers.

LeonCarr
December 11, 2013, 11:34 AM
Roadkill,

Nice 1911 ya got there. Is that the original magazine? I read somewhere that they heat treated the top half of the magazine to preserve the feed lips.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

BP Hunter
December 11, 2013, 11:52 AM
I guess safety wasn't a big issue back then. Why? Because the American back then did not understand that when something went wrong, somebody had to award the victim millions of dollars for injuries. Yes, there were the good ol' days.

Oh, great picture, too!

Double Naught Spy
December 11, 2013, 03:15 PM
Again, they understood safety just fine. Every one of those guys knows that their 1911s cannot discharge by pulling the trigger if the hammer is already down and the hammer is down on those guns. Doctrine of the time also was not to carry with a round chambered. Guns won't discharge without a chambered round. Hammer down on an empty chamber is pretty darned safe on a 1911.

SlamFire1
December 11, 2013, 03:40 PM
My guess the AEF Army of Occupation. We still had guys in 1919 over there, maybe later. I am curious about the city in the backdrop.

3GunEric
December 11, 2013, 10:03 PM
SlamFire1 see post #33 for city details.

kBob
December 12, 2013, 07:54 AM
3GunEric,

Good call. I was trying to remember. Artillery Officer 3AD HHB DIVARTY 81-82
Hanau. Went on the DIVARTY Officers Rhine Mosel river cruise summer of 82 and got smashed tasting the wines, fortunately not as badly as the new Female LT I was sponsoring that week, who made repeated passes at the ship captain.

I blew the photos up to 400 % to try to look at the left collar discs (all enlisted as they are discs) Only one seems remotely identifiable and it appears to be crossed somethings, whether sabers, cannons, or Muskets I can not tell. Not sure the MPs had their own insignia yet or a separate branch for that matter at the time this photo was made.

-kBob

Roadkill
December 12, 2013, 08:29 AM
Nice 1911 ya got there. Is that the original magazine? I read somewhere that they heat treated the top half of the magazine to preserve the feed lips.



Its all original. Old family gun. Took me years to track it down and another twenty or so before I got it. Its as tight as any modern gun I own. Sights really are bad though.

3GunEric
December 12, 2013, 09:42 PM
kBob,

Remember the Frauleins on Lamboy Strasse?

B Company 1-33 AR

SC Shooter
December 13, 2013, 09:55 AM
The back drop appears to be a generic drop down painting of a "typical" Europe image. I am guessing that with the exception of the two corporals, the rest are new recruits getting ready to deploy to Europe around 1915.

Kernel
December 14, 2013, 01:01 AM
ready to deploy to Europe around 1915

America was at peace in 1915. Congress declared war on April 6th 1917. It then took us about 10-12 months to get useful quantities of troops in theater, since we had almost no standing army.

I agree these are likely occupation troops. Posing in Koblenz, Germany. After the war. Outdoors, because the light would be best.

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