Sizing new brass...


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gonoles_1980
December 8, 2013, 11:03 AM
I bought 500 .357 bass cases a while back. I've been running them through the sizing die first. Am I wasting my time doing this?

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steve4102
December 8, 2013, 11:11 AM
No. I size all my new brass both pistol and rifle. It's a long way from the manufacturer to my bench, so I size everything to make sure the necks and case mouths are perfectly round and my cases are all uniform. I personally don't find anything I do at the loading bench a "waist of time". It is a hobby and an enjoyable one for me. YMMV

As for your "time", you will probably spend more time posting this question and reading replies then it would have taken you to just size them.

gonoles_1980
December 8, 2013, 11:19 AM
LOL - Good point :).

Walkalong
December 8, 2013, 11:23 AM
I size new brass, although many think it is a waste of time. :)

fallout mike
December 8, 2013, 11:29 AM
I size new brass as well.

FROGO207
December 8, 2013, 11:44 AM
I size ANY brass before I reload it whether it be new or previously fired. I will clean, size it, and put it away with a note as to where in the process it is presently.

ReloaderFred
December 8, 2013, 11:45 AM
Mine are all sized prior to loading, new or fired, it makes no difference.

Hope this helps.

Fred

gamestalker
December 8, 2013, 01:12 PM
No waste of time in my opinion, I size all new to me brass before trimming and loading it.

GS

SASS#23149
December 8, 2013, 01:15 PM
years ago I had bullets almost fall into un-sized brand new brass,been sizing it ever since.Well worth the time,imho.

45lcshooter
December 8, 2013, 01:39 PM
ANY(new, once fired, multiple firings) brass you intend to reload because the robots that make the brass are made by humans, humans make mistakes, which could transfer into the robots that make the brass. At the range i find brass all the time i re-load, i would not pop the primer out, put new one in, charge it, and put a bullet on it, and fire it, that is just flat out poor judgement.

New brass needs to be worked to the correct diameter of the chamber and reloading die. A lot of my new brass i get the streaks on it from the die tightening up the case. In turn better case tension, and better case retention.

Resize any and all brass no matter what, or you could possibly end up hurt, from a blown up gun.

plmitch
December 8, 2013, 01:49 PM
I always size new brass, can't hurt.

Rule3
December 8, 2013, 02:05 PM
Not directed at the OP in any way.

This question come up a lot. If you reload you always resize the brass so why is "new" brass always in question? Is it to save a step or something.?? On most any press the first stage is to size and de prime so to me new brass just goes along for the ride like once fired or hundred times fired.

Yes, resize new or old.

Offfhand
December 8, 2013, 08:19 PM
A few years ago I was on the panel of a reloading seminar at an NRA annul convention. About 250 members were in the audience and during the Q&A discussion someone asked about sizing new rifle brass. I responded to the question with another question, asking the audience how many handloaders there knew the actual dimensions of their resizing dies. No hands were raised. I then asked how many simply knew the diameter of the expander buttons in their sizing dies. This time about a dozen hands went up. By then the audience were beginning recognize the point of my query. That being, why would you presume that your loading die(s) is more dimensionally exact than new cases? When in fact, as I had previously determined by testing and measuring, that there is surprising wide variation in dimensions not only between different reloading die manufacturers, but even from lot to lot by same maker. Meaning, in effect, that all too often we assume our loading dies to be correct without any real knowledge that they are. My own professional experience examining ammo, components and tooling, plus that of the professionals in the firm where I work (Now part time) has demonstrated that there is high probability that new cartridge cases will be more within dimensional parameters than will the average sizing die. The bottom line being that unless you are certain about the internal dimensions of a sizing die you are essentially plunging your new case into a sizing die's risky unknown. So what possible advantage is to be gained?
Further, as we all know, it is not uncommon for necks of new brass to have been deformed during handing, packing and shipping. (They certainly are not made that way.) Often the necks are then straightened by amateur handloaders simply by forcing them over the expanding ball in a sizing die. But here again, dimensions can vary by maker and lot to lot, with variations sometimes extreme. (Have you ever actually measured the expanding balls in your dies?) Which is why the wiser and more correct choice for straightening and rounding deformed case neck is with a known and true dimension expanding mandrel. These are available from different makers, (K-M and Sinclair for example) at modest cost and in addition to being gentler and more precise with new cases, plus keeping them straighter, are also smoother to use.
Attached is a photo of neck mandrels made by KM, Sinclair and one made in our own shop. Making your own, such as this, is a relatively simple lathe operation.

docsleepy
December 8, 2013, 08:37 PM
That's a very interesting point.

However, I once did an experiment with a reasonably accurate (not benchrest quality, but around 1 MOA) rifle: cases reloaded using Full Length sizing + followup Neck Sizing (collet die), versus cases reloaded using only Full Lengh sizing die (which has that awful expander button etc....

There was no appreciable difference in accuracy. At least that *I* could discern. This is just one test in one rifle and one shooter, but with my benchrest gun I can get some pretty good groups and for deer hunting I want to be accurate even at 300+ yards, so I work hard at reloading and this surprised me.

Rule3
December 8, 2013, 09:04 PM
A few years ago I was on the panel of a reloading seminar at an NRA annul convention. About 250 members were in the audience and during the Q&A discussion someone asked about sizing new rifle brass. I responded to the question with another question, asking the audience how many handloaders there knew the actual dimensions of their resizing dies. No hands were raised. I then asked how many simply knew the diameter of the expander buttons in their sizing dies. This time about a dozen hands went up. By then the audience were beginning recognize the point of my query. That being, why would you presume that your loading die(s) is more dimensionally exact than new cases? When in fact, as I had previously determined by testing and measuring, that there is surprising wide variation in dimensions not only between different reloading die manufacturers, but even from lot to lot by same maker. Meaning, in effect, that all too often we assume our loading dies to be correct without any real knowledge that they are. My own professional experience examining ammo, components and tooling, plus that of the professionals in the firm where I work (Now part time) has demonstrated that there is high probability that new cartridge cases will be more within dimensional parameters than will the average sizing die. The bottom line being that unless you are certain about the internal dimensions of a sizing die you are essentially plunging your new case into a sizing die's risky unknown. So what possible advantage is to be gained?
Further, as we all know, it is not uncommon for necks of new brass to have been deformed during handing, packing and shipping. (They certainly are not made that way.) Often the necks are then straightened by amateur handloaders simply by forcing them over the expanding ball in a sizing die. But here again, dimensions can vary by maker and lot to lot, with variations sometimes extreme. (Have you ever actually measured the expanding balls in your dies?) Which is why the wiser and more correct choice for straightening and rounding deformed case neck is with a known and true dimension expanding mandrel. These are available from different makers, (K-M and Sinclair for example) at modest cost and in addition to being gentler and more precise with new cases, plus keeping them straighter, are also smoother to use.
Attached is a photo of neck mandrels made by KM, Sinclair and one made in our own shop. Making your own, such as this, is a relatively simple lathe operation.

That is interesting however I doubt many reloaders know the size of their reloading dies, I confess that I do not. So every caliber I reload and each time I reload a case I am plunging them into the "unknown"??

So new or used it still is a leap of faith that the die is correct or problems would be noticed. All my cartridges fit.

jakk280rem
December 8, 2013, 09:07 PM
There was an article in Handloader magazine a few issues ago about full length sizing new shouldered brass. I do not recall a mention of straight wall cases. The author made a good point for not doing it. He stated other than uniforming case mouths that were deformed during shipping that it was a bad idea. When I get a chance I will search thru my backissues and get the issue and see if there is a digital copy available.

ReloaderFred
December 8, 2013, 09:08 PM
I've had brand new .45 Colt brass where even a .454" diameter bullet would drop right to the bottom of the case. This was from a manufacturer who has been in the business for many years, and regularly receives accolades for it's "quality" and long case life.

I'll just keep sizing my new brass like I've done for the past 50+ years and be comfortable knowing it's all the same when I get done. And yes, I've measured some of my sizing dies and most of my expanders, so I do know what I'm shoving those cases into.

Hope this helps.

Fred

witchhunter
December 8, 2013, 09:13 PM
New brass gets the same treatment as range pick up brass. For pistol, just like any other. Rifle brass for a bolt action gets the entire treatment, size, trim, deburr flash holes and primer pocket. When priming any brass, loose primer pockets get tossed in the scrap can. No, I do not know the dimensions of my dies, but I do know what they size the necks to.

243winxb
December 8, 2013, 09:19 PM
I have loaded 100 Win., 243 win brass as it came from the factory. :eek: The Rem., had to bump the case mouth with the expander to make it round. :rolleyes: Seat Boatail bullets. Pet load goes under 1" @100 yds. :barf: Single shot Rem. 40x rifle. New handloaders should FL size first, you need the practice. :D

Walkalong
December 8, 2013, 09:59 PM
We are, after all, going to be sizing those cases for every other firing with whatever dies we are using. Sure, there are bad dies out there, but that is something we have to figure out regardless if we use them on the first firing or not.

I made the mandrel on the bottom. Sinclair Gen 1 die body.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=116627&stc=1&d=1267387549

osteodoc08
December 8, 2013, 10:03 PM
Funny this should come up. I debated this again in my head as I set up my press for my 41 tonight and was using virgin starline brass......it went through the sizing die

Grumulkin
December 9, 2013, 07:14 PM
http://www.orchardphoto.com/h29zo99.jpg
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http://www.orchardphoto.com/h5uz288.jpg


Do you notice any trend?

Understand that I don't really care if you resize new brass but it's a waste of time. Do you check the dimensions of factory bought loaded ammo? Do you resize the the cases of factory loaded ammo? Are the cases a manufacturer sells to you for reloading different from what they load their ammo with?

As far as the "what can it hurt" question; every time brass is resized it's worked and becomes more brittle. Your resizing to accomplish pretty much nothing has put your case necks one resizing closer to cracking unless you anneal them which I'm betting hardly any of you do. What about bottle necked cases; how do you remove the lube in the case necks? Do you think lube in the case necks has anything to do with neck tension on the bullet? Maybe you don't lube the case necks in which case do you think yanking your expander ball out of the case neck could have any effect on where the shoulder ends up?

higgite
December 9, 2013, 10:51 PM
I size new brass, although many think it is a waste of time. :)
I too always size new brass. I figure if it makes me feel better, it's not a waste of time. ;)

Tim the student
December 10, 2013, 12:52 AM
I always size new rifle brass.

Never had new pistol brass, but if I did have new pistol brass, I'd size it too.

Steve C
December 10, 2013, 01:20 AM
To me sizing factory new handgun brass is just loosing one load by working the brass that unneeded extra first time.

I have bought new Winchester, Remington, Federal, PMC, and Starline pistol brass in .38 spl, .357 mag, .41 mag, .32 S&W Long, .45 acp, and 9mm. Never bothered to size any of it, just ran it through the expander and case mouth belling die, primed and loaded. Never had any problems with any of it holding bullets or fitting chambers. Have always inspected the brass and have had a few with dings in the case mouth but that gets removed by the expander.

I have never bought new brass for rifle. Rifle brass should be checked in a guage or chamber, at least enough of them to see if sizing or trimming is really needed.

ole farmerbuck
December 10, 2013, 07:12 AM
After trying to chamfer some new .204 brass, I neck size new brass now.It was cutting in on some spots on the brass and hardly touching in other places. I couldnt tell by looking that the necks were dinged but the chamfer tool showed it.

Walkalong
December 10, 2013, 07:36 AM
but the chamfer tool showed it.Yes, to do this right, the necks must be round, and square.

steve4102
December 10, 2013, 07:40 AM
The bottom line being that unless you are certain about the internal dimensions of a sizing die you are essentially plunging your new case into a sizing die's risky unknown. So what possible advantage is to be gained?

There is nothing "risky unknown" about the internal dimensions of a sizing die.

I "know" that the sizing die I am using is set up to size my brass to fit my chamber. I do not have to know how much my dies internal dimensions differ from your die or anyone else's die. I do not care if your die differs from mine, I will be using mine not yours.

If my die is out of spec and plunging "new" brass into it alters it's size and shape, GOOD, that is what I want, I want all my brass both New and Old to be sized with my out of spec die, so they are identical, even if they are wrong, they are identical.

groundsclown
December 10, 2013, 08:09 AM
I want all my brass both New and Old to be sized with my out of spec die, so they are identical, even if they are wrong, they are identical.

Ding ding ding winner winner chicken dinner.
Same reason I trim my new straight wall pistol brass... :eek::what:
CUN-SI-STAN-SEE :D

Zeke/PA
December 10, 2013, 08:27 AM
I size ALL new brass both rifle and pistol to avoid mostly bullet seating problems down the road.

243winxb
December 10, 2013, 09:20 AM
Before loading the brass, as it came from the factory, a few things have to be checked. 1. Out of a bag of 100, 10 must chamber in the rifle with no problems. 2. The trim length must be at or under maximum. 3. The bullet should not fall into the case. I measure the neck diameter before and after seating a bullet. This tells me what i need to know about neck tension. 4. Bump the case mouth with an expander to make it round if needed. (Like Walkalong's Tool) At this time you can also check cartridge head clearance, head to datum. 5. Use a Sierra 85gr boatail bullet to expand the neck on seating. If you did run the new brass into my FL die, the shoulder may not move forward at all. Only firing will do this. Factory new brass is undersize for the most part. Now the flash hole gets uniformed. If trim length is all the same or close, i sort by 1/10 th gr. Hoping to get 50 brass that are within 3/10 gr. After firing the first time, brass is neck turned for the Rem 40X, not for the Rem. 600. In the 40X, groups on the first firing will average right around 3/4" @ 100 yds. About the 3 loading,using a FL bushing die, the unsided part of the neck will have expanded to the chamber ( sizing about 1/2 of the neck) Groups will be smaller now, some under 1" @ 300 yds if i do my part & read the wind correctly. Just how i do it. Your result may be different. Berger Bullets @ 300Yds. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737261

Rule3
December 10, 2013, 11:56 AM
To me sizing factory new handgun brass is just loosing one load by working the brass that unneeded extra first time.



Your kidding right?:confused:

Dang I am going to get indefinite minus one, rather than indefinite reloads.?

mokin
December 10, 2013, 12:10 PM
You got new brass?! Things are definitely looking up. I almost always size new brass before I load it. Every now and then I don't.

Rule3
December 10, 2013, 01:55 PM
You got new brass?! Things are definitely looking up. I almost always size new brass before I load it. Every now and then I don't.

:D:D:D

I am still working on my range brass from 5 years ago. Only brass I ever bought new was 45 Colt as you do not find them laying around.;) I sized them and even trimmed them, it was fun:eek:

dagger dog
December 11, 2013, 04:42 PM
years ago I had bullets almost fall into un-sized brand new brass,been sizing it ever since.Well worth the time,imho.
I had that happen with 45 Colt ( LC if you like to call it that), bought 100 new off the shelf sealed bag, 0.452" boolit dropped right to the bottom of an unprimed case, tried a few more same results.

Just wonder if they were NOS and had been run on tooling set up for the older 0.454" standard that was common pre WWII ?

Any way I size 'em all now even rifle, that way you have a starting point, for repeatability, you know every case in the batch will have be the same.

gonoles_1980
December 12, 2013, 10:17 AM
mokin took about a month of searching. But with the LCR 357 I can only fire 20-30 rounds of factory ammo before it becomes less fun from the kickback, more in the trigger. So I bought .357 brass to make my own lighter loads. I could fire a 100 of those and only just use up 100 rounds, and it's quite fun to fire.

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