WWII trophy??


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Perfesser
December 9, 2013, 11:25 AM
A friend of a friend has this one.
It was described to me as a 'Jap carbine'. Supposed to be a bringback from Saipan or Okinawa and (again, supposed) to have still been full of cosmoline as if picked up from an armory or the shipping box. Note the mum still intact!
I know very little about these so if this has been seen before - sorry for the repeat but I don't know how to tell the type and I didn't get to see it before I left.

These are the best pics but there are several more.

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rondog
December 9, 2013, 11:59 AM
Wow, that's awesome! Looks like it was never issued! Bring some more of those photos, please. I don't know Jap rifles, but I'm guessing Arisaka Type 44?

Dframe
December 9, 2013, 12:03 PM
Most likely a 7.7 calibre. Appears to be in incredible shape. You rarely see them that nice.

deadin
December 9, 2013, 12:07 PM
Look up Type 44 Arisaka Cavalry Carbine...... It should be in 6.5 Japanese.

SDC
December 9, 2013, 12:15 PM
The markings on top of the receiver read "44 Type", so this should be in 6.5mm Arisaka, and it's in beautiful condition. There should be another mark on the side of the receiver which will tell you which arsenal this one was built at.

Schutzen
December 9, 2013, 12:33 PM
It is a soldiers bring back, the chrysanthemum is still intact. All that were imported after the war and those that were surrendered were supposed to have the chrysanthemum ground off.

LAGS
December 9, 2013, 12:59 PM
Years ago, I ran into a guy that was the Mayor of a small town by Los Angeles.
He had a whole collection of Jap Guns that he got straight out of the Armory in Japan durring the occupation.
Brand New, Never fired.
He had one of about every model including the take down rifles.
He said the Armory was in Tokyo, and was not Bombed durring the war, because it was the Ford Tractor Plant over there.

Perfesser
December 9, 2013, 04:33 PM
Rest of the pics are grainy and just shots from the sides; none close enough to find the arsenal markings. Once Greg sees this post he might send a shot of that.
Any Idea what it would be worth?

Steel Horse Rider
December 9, 2013, 10:44 PM
I would probably pay in the neighborhood of $500 for such a speciman. Whether the market is higher or lower than that is beyond my knowledge, but I do like the Arisaka's.

45_auto
December 11, 2013, 06:47 PM
He said the Armory was in Tokyo, and was not Bombed durring the war, because it was the Ford Tractor Plant over there.

So we firebombed Tokyo, totally destroyed over 50% of the city and killed several hundred thousand people, were specifically trying to destroy their industrial capability, did more damage than the atomic bombs, but were very careful to miss the Ford Tractor Plant?

You have a lot more faith in Air Force target planners and bombardiers than I do if you believe that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9/10 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II;[2] greater than Dresden,[13] Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.

Jim K
December 12, 2013, 12:32 AM
The same story was told about the GM and Ford plants in Germany. It wasn't true there, either. No matter who owned them before the war, they were making war material for the enemy and they were bombed.

Of course, even if we had wanted to spare a factory with the Ford oval on the roof, that would have been impossible. During the war, the Army Air Force bragged that with its famous (and highly classified) Norden bomb sight, a B-17 could drop its bombs in a trash can from 20,000 feet. It later turned out to be a rather large trash can, as high altitude bombers were lucky to get their bombs within a mile of the target unless it was the size of a city.

Jim

blarby
December 12, 2013, 01:43 AM
Thats a really, really, really nice rifle.

Perfesser
December 12, 2013, 10:05 AM
Here's the side of the receiver with the SN and (I hope) the arsenal mark.

LAGS
December 12, 2013, 10:13 AM
I am sure it was all propaganda that they told the occupation forces, that the did not bomb the Ford plant.
They were probably trying to hit it like any other target, but Just Missed.
So what better way to spread rumors about our bombing accuracy , then to spread rumors, that we only hit what we wanted too.
The US is not beyond Putting a Positive spin on their Mistakes or failures to drum up support, or Bolster our capabilities.
But the guy had pictures of the Ford Plant intact, and the big Oval sign still there.

SDC
December 12, 2013, 10:42 AM
The "circle on top of circles" mark (which is supposed to look like a stack of cannonballs seen from the top) is the mark of the Kokura Arsenal.

Perfesser
December 12, 2013, 11:14 PM
Thanks to all who provided information...now we know what it is and where it was made. And in just 3 days.

tahunua001
December 19, 2013, 08:18 PM
Most likely a 7.7 calibre. Appears to be in incredible shape. You rarely see them that nice.
abso-freaking-lutely false. the type 44, which is definitely what the OP has, was only chambered in 6.5x50mm. there were never any type 44s rechambered to 7.7 either. beyond that, to my knowledge there was never a carbine length rifle in 7.7 only long rifles or take downs.

I will concur that that is a beautiful rifle and I am thoroughly jealous. I have a type 44 and it is quite beaten but easily the most accurate military surplus rifle I own. I intend to use it in the next CMP shoot. mine was ground mum though.

tark
December 20, 2013, 04:22 PM
It is a type 44 and it is a 6.5mm. And it is beautiful. One like it, not as high conditioned, sold at auction at the Rock Island Auction Co, a while back for four figures. (Low four figures. I believe it was around 1200) Japanese rifles have been steadily rising in value lately. Last year a 99% type 99 long rifle went for over 2500! It had been listed in the cat. at 900-1000!

tark
December 20, 2013, 08:14 PM
Just looked up the type 44 that sold in RIAs most recent auction. It went for 1725 big ones! As I have said, Japanese arms are going UP in value!

tahunua001
December 20, 2013, 09:21 PM
those are auction prices and in no way reflect average retail value.

$800, that is the standard going rate for type 44s in normal condition, the OPs could more than likely pull an even grand without breaking a sweat but it is an uncommon specimen.

type 99s are $300 in average condition. with all parts intact and matching including the bayonet and sling a person might be able to get away with $550.

at this day and age I find more people picking up arisakas for $100 than mosin nagant 91/30s.

tark
December 21, 2013, 12:28 PM
Why would auction prices be higher that retail prices? I would think that an auction would be the best way to find the actual value of a gun. Most guns I see at RIA co. go for far LESS that the same guns for sale used in the retail stores around here. Nice old Smiths and Colts in very good condition and standard calibers I see sold all the time for 200-300 dollars. I see the same guns used in the retail stores and at gun shows going (or NOT going) for half again as much. Maybe it is just the times, or the fact that I live outside the United States (Illinois) but I do know this. If I want the best guns for the cheapest prices, I'll go and bid at auction.

Jim K
December 21, 2013, 08:05 PM
At some auctions, the cause of high auction prices is due to "auction fever". This is shorthand for "I'll be d**ned if I am gonna let some SOB get that item even if I spend every nickel I have to take it home with ME!!" (See also "macho", "competitiveness" and "testosterone.")

But at RIA and other auctions like that, most bidders are dealers, not collectors, so they won't go above a price that will let them sell the item at a nice profit.

Jim

tark
December 22, 2013, 01:20 PM
Jim in my experience most of the people I see at R.I.A. co ARE collectors, not dealers. I see a lot of collector FFLs and not many dealers. Why would a collector buy a gun from a dealer who is charging him more than he got it for at the auction house? The collector would go to the auction house and buy it himself. There is too much money to be made in the retailing of new firearms, these days. Only a few, very specialized dealers, show up at high end auctions.

irl104
December 29, 2013, 03:22 PM
Very nice looking rifle for sure.

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