Do you crimp a 223/5.56 bullet with a cannelure in AR15


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Rule3
December 10, 2013, 03:16 PM
Lots of threads and question regarding crimping a bullet in 223/5/56 that has a cannelure, Thought I would put it in a poll form.

This is with a Lee collet type rifle die crimp totally different than the pistol FCD. (just for clarity)

Or any brand/kind of crimp die

This is blasting or plinking ammo not match grade stuff.

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steve4102
December 10, 2013, 03:20 PM
I crimp all my semi-auto ammo with the Lee Factory Crimp die. Even the Match Grade stuff, Improves accuracy in my firearms.

Walkalong
December 10, 2013, 03:47 PM
I use a taper crimp with a 55 Gr FMJ with a cannelure. It has nothing to do with accuracy. I never shoot those for groups.

But, if the cannelure has no indentation, there is nowhere for the case mouth to go, so it is a waste of time. Some jacketed bullets these days have little marks instead of a real cannelure. I don't know why they bother.

With the FCD in question, it can be adjusted heavily and then will push the case mouth in and make its own indention, but I don't want to damage the bullet that much.

Otto
December 10, 2013, 03:50 PM
Nope, no crimp is needed with 556 and the Lee FCD is a waste of money IMO.

Rule3
December 10, 2013, 04:08 PM
I use a taper crimp with a 55 Gr FMJ with a cannelure. It has nothing to do with accuracy. I never shoot those for groups.

But, if the cannelure has no indentation, there is nowhere for the case mouth to go, so it is a waste of time. Some jacketed bullets these days have little marks instead of a real cannelure. I don't know why they bother.

With the FCD in question, it can be adjusted heavily and then will push the case mouth in and make its own indention, but I don't want to damage the bullet that much.

That's the cannelure I am referring to. The little bumpy line for lack of a better explanation. No it's not a groove like a 357 LSWC With the LEE rifle crimp die I never set it to make it's own groove either. Barely the recommended 1/2 turn. It can smash the heck out of a bullet.

http://www.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-55-gr-FMJ-BT-with-cannelure/

GT1
December 10, 2013, 04:23 PM
Yes, a light crimp using the FCD in the cannelure(Doesn't matter if there is a cannelure or not to me, actually). The FCD is a crimp die only in my case because I've already sized the case, it only uses the crimp function.

steve4102
December 10, 2013, 04:37 PM
That Hornady bullet has a deep cannelure for a rifle bullet. This is a wimpy cannelure.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9378/224-dia-77-gr-HPBT-MatchKing-Cannelured-box-of-500

redclay
December 10, 2013, 05:04 PM
I crimp all bullets loaded for a semi-auto, rifle and hand gun.
When I first started reloading for semi-auto it was recommended that I shouldn't crimp for increased accuracy. This advise was HOG WASH spread by people that don't know squat about semi-autos. The violence of the round being chambered is enough for an un-crimped round to lose the bullet and wedge it in the lands and powder spilled in the action. I tested the results of the Lee Factory crimp in a press and it more than doubled the force required to move the bullet. Leaving them un-crimped is fine for a bolt gun. I find my accuracy improves with modest powder loads running about 2500 FPS in an auto loader
Just my experience, hope it helps

jaguarxk120
December 10, 2013, 05:06 PM
What otto said in post no. 4.

cfullgraf
December 10, 2013, 05:21 PM
I used to crimp my semi-auto rifle rounds but give it up years ago.

moxie
December 10, 2013, 06:14 PM
I do not crimp. No need. If the bullet is coming loose upon chambering, there are other problems.

That Sierra bullet's cannelure ain't really. It's just a, to me, guide on where to seat the bullet.

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 06:29 PM
Maybe I am wrong but isn't the whole point of the cannelure to give some "purchase" to the crimp for magazine fed weapons?

canĚneĚlure
noun \ˈkanəlˌ(y)u̇(ə)r\
-s
Full Definition of CANNELURE
1
: a groove running lengthwise on the surface of a cylinder or column
2
a : a groove around the cylinder of an elongated bullet for small arms to contain a lubricant
b : a groove around a bullet into which the edge of the cartridge case is crimped
c : a groove around the rotating band of a gun projectile to lessen the resistance offered to the rifling
d : a groove around the base of a cartridge where the extractor takes hold

cfullgraf
December 10, 2013, 07:07 PM
Maybe I am wrong but isn't the whole point of the cannelure to give some "purchase" to the crimp for magazine fed weapons?



Crimping bullets in the cannelure does not improve neck tension and in some cases decreases it.

But, there are special cases where crimping is useful.

Crimping helps in tubular magazine rifles where the bullets push against the base of the next bullet and recoil of the gun can move the bullets. Kind of like banging on the bullet with a hammer.

Also, some very high power rounds can move the bullets under recoil, or in rifles where the magazine allows the bullet to bang against the front of the magazine can get some benefit from crimping.

Rule3
December 10, 2013, 07:24 PM
Granted the 223/5.56 is not a heavy recoil. How about an AR10 style in 308. Would the rounds bounce around enough in the magazine to move the bullet?

3GunEric
December 10, 2013, 08:39 PM
All I know is that I crimp them all. 5.56, 7.62, and 7.62x39. Done this tens of thousands of times and never had a prob - so a crimping I will go!

moxie
December 10, 2013, 09:03 PM
3GunEric,

You are correct. If you aren't crimping, a cannelure isn't needed. But, the 55FMJBT with cannelure is usually the most common and cheapest .223 bullet (.224) available. So many of us use it a lot for plinking, drills, classes, etc. And it might not be the best but it's certainly suitable for defense rounds. It has very good terminal ballistics.

NCsmitty
December 10, 2013, 09:07 PM
If your neck tension is correct, IE, expander button at least .002" under bullet diameter, there is no need to employ a crimp in an AR.
The only rifle loads that I crimp, is for tube magazine lever actions.


NCsmitty

billybob44
December 10, 2013, 09:22 PM
I put a light crimp on all of my AR ammo. I use an RCBS AR series Taper Crimp die..Bill.:D

Dr.Zubrato
December 11, 2013, 03:02 AM
I used to, and since I load on a single stage I tried without it one time and realized I could cut out a whole lot of extra crimping and save myself some time. Not to mention I seat my bullets a little long, so my case mouth is below the cannelure. Never had any problems or failures to feed, but I have been getting subMOA from a lightweight barrel profile fighting rifle at 100 yards.
If I was working on a progressive press, I probably would crimp lightly, just for the hell of it.

cfullgraf
December 11, 2013, 07:07 AM
Granted the 223/5.56 is not a heavy recoil. How about an AR10 style in 308. Would the rounds bounce around enough in the magazine to move the bullet?

Besides 223 Remington, I do not crimp 30-06 used in an M1 Garand or 308 Winchester used in an M1A.

So, I would suspect that an AR-10 style rifle in 308 Winchester would not need crimping.

Of the 10 rifle cartridges that I reload, only 30 Carbine gets crimped and that is a taper crimp to remove mouth belling.

zerobarrier
December 11, 2013, 07:51 AM
Its not really needed in 223 especially if used in a bolt gun, but I do any ways. It makes me feel better in my AR-15. Also I only do .002-.003 crimp

Devilfrog
December 11, 2013, 08:05 AM
I crimp all my semi-auto ammo with the Lee Factory Crimp die. Even the Match Grade stuff, Improves accuracy in my firearms.
Yep, what he said :D

steve4102
December 11, 2013, 09:23 AM
Crimping bullets in the cannelure does not improve neck tension and in some cases decreases it.

But, there are special cases where crimping is useful.

Crimping helps in tubular magazine rifles where the bullets push against the base of the next bullet and recoil of the gun can move the bullets. Kind of like banging on the bullet with a hammer.

Also, some very high power rounds can move the bullets under recoil, or in rifles where the magazine allows the bullet to bang against the front of the magazine can get some benefit from crimping.

How can this be? If crimping into a cannelure does NOT help secure the bullet, how can "there are special cases where crimping is useful."?

If crimping does nothing, how can it help in "high powered" rounds and in "tubular magazines"? :confused:

cfullgraf
December 11, 2013, 11:17 AM
How can this be? If crimping into a cannelure does NOT help secure the bullet, how can "there are special cases where crimping is useful."?

If crimping does nothing, how can it help in "high powered" rounds and in "tubular magazines"? :confused:

I will rephrase, the general consensus is that crimping is detrimental to the perfomance of the round upon firing.

Some folks do not agree with this though.

In cases like tubular magazine or high recoiling cartridges, a proper crimp aides in holding the bullet in position.

stavman11
December 11, 2013, 11:30 AM
Never crimp my .223

Seemed to increase the Pressure and decrease the accuracy when I tried It....

So now I drop a Bullet in and Thats all...:)

Walkalong
December 11, 2013, 12:15 PM
An improper crimp can indeed damage neck tension by buckling brass a hair. I read cfullgraf's post to mean that.

A good crimp, especially a roll crimp, into a good cannelure with some depth for the neck to turn in to, can help the bullet from moving in rough conditions, such as banging around in the mag or bouncing off of feed ramps. The military does it for a reason.

I crimp 55 Gr FMJ ammo for blasting and plinking. I do not crimp any other ammo for .223.

Rule3
December 11, 2013, 12:33 PM
For the non crimp crowd,

Lets take the common 55 gr Hornady with the cannelure (little bumpy line thing:))

Does that by itself hold the bullet tight in the mouth of the case.??

If not, then isn't it there to be crimped??

This is the pressing question of the day;)

stavman11
December 11, 2013, 02:30 PM
I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself:D then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU;)

Load up 20 No Crimp
Load up 10 with slight Crimp
Load up 10 with Medium Crimp

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...

I enjoy doing those kinds of testing.... makes a Range day even more Fun

oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings:)

stavman11
December 11, 2013, 02:33 PM
and Side Note

when Loading .223 I have noticed the Bullet seating is always much tighter than hand loads... Thus the tension of the bullet to Case, without crimp, to me seems much better than Most Hand gun Loads...

Again thats how it seems to me anyways:D

Walkalong
December 11, 2013, 02:36 PM
Does that by itself hold the bullet tight in the mouth of the case.??

If not, then isn't it there to be crimped??
No.

Yes, but you don't have to.

Rule3
December 11, 2013, 03:02 PM
I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself:D then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU;)

Load up 20 No Crimp
Load up 10 with slight Crimp
Load up 10 with Medium Crimp

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...

I enjoy doing those kinds of testing.... makes a Range day even more Fun

oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings:)


I brought the chrongraph with me last range trip but it is still so damn hot here I lost interest. I like doing that testing also, more so with handguns but down here in the sub tropics it just sucks the life out of you. Once it cools off I will go forth and test.:) Combination of humidity and temp. Zone 10

Comrade Mike
December 11, 2013, 03:20 PM
I crimp for all my semi autos, this I like my 12 dollar "waste of money". Very easy to use in any caliber and puts a nice crimp on the bullet.

JonB
December 11, 2013, 04:13 PM
I am working on 1000 rounds of .223 right now (well at least another 100 as my bullets will run out), and I use the FCD on all of them. I go easy on it (ie follow the set up directions) and don't apply a stout crimp. I can do 100 rounds in a few minutes with my hand press, so there isn't much time savings to be had - especially when compared to the time it takes to prep the brass in the first place.

forestswin
December 11, 2013, 04:21 PM
Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself:D then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU;)

................

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...


oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings:)


the poll hasn't quite established a clear winner - we need an answer:confused:

I think stavman's suggestion is excellent:D

I just picked up a set of .223 dies for my son's .223 and got plenty of cases:eek:

and inquiring minds want to know:D

pictures of the targets with & without crimps with your findings would be nice too:scrutiny:

SlamFire1
December 11, 2013, 04:33 PM
Crimping deforms the jacket, swages the lead core, moving the center of gravity of the bullet out of the axis of rotation. Crimping and the Lee Factory Crimp die are the surest way to ruin a good bullet.

So, I don't crimp unless I have to. Crimping makes sense for elephant guns, tube magazines, or Vulcan 20mm antiaircraft guns. I don't load for the Vulcan but crimping makes sense there as the ramming speeds are very high.

Suggestions that crimping improves accuracy is all bosh: the proponents can't shoot straight, are not winning any competitions. What ever results they have are not impressive and the differences are all explained by the "texas sharpshooter" fallacy.

Ranger Roberts
December 11, 2013, 04:40 PM
I am by no means an expert in reloading .223, so take my vote with a grain of salt, but I am in the "no" crowd. In my experience I have not noticed increased accuracy between crimped/not crimped.

cfullgraf
December 11, 2013, 04:40 PM
"texas sharpshooter" fallacy.

That's a term I have not heard before. Learn something every day.:)

steve4102
December 11, 2013, 04:45 PM
. I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !

Rule3
December 11, 2013, 05:28 PM
the poll hasn't quite established a clear winner - we need an answer:confused:

I think stavman's suggestion is excellent:D

I just picked up a set of .223 dies for my son's .223 and got plenty of cases:eek:

and inquiring minds want to know:D

pictures of the targets with & without crimps with your findings would be nice too:scrutiny:
Well Forest as I know what an analytical mind you have, you are elected!!!

Just think of all the data, flow charts, graphs and measurements you can make!. I know you already have the brass sorted by headstamp and trimmed to the millimeter!

I'll even sen you a bag of these fine Winchester Bullets:neener:

With 68 votes it's pretty much a tie.

moxie
December 11, 2013, 09:09 PM
"So, I don't crimp unless I have to. Crimping makes sense for elephant guns, tube magazines, or Vulcan 20mm antiaircraft guns. I don't load for the Vulcan but crimping makes sense there as the ramming speeds are very high. "

Yes they are. I used to work on Vulcan M61A1 guns. (Also SUU-16s and 23s.) Hi speed stuff.

If you look closely at M193 and 855, etc. , they are lightly crimped. Almost unnoticeable. That is to preclude bullet jump in full auto guns primarily.

Otherwise, the only real need for crimp is heavy recoiling revolvers, again to prevent bullet jump. Good case neck tension takes care of the rest.

I'm with you. I don't crimp unless I have to.

forestswin
December 12, 2013, 12:40 AM
Well Forest as I know what an analytical mind you have, you are elected!!!

Just think of all the data, flow charts, graphs and measurements you can make!. I know you already have the brass sorted by headstamp and trimmed to the millimeter!

I'll even sen you a bag of these fine Winchester Bullets:neener:

With 68 votes it's pretty much a tie.


:what: Now wait a minute Rule:cuss:


Hey, it was stavmans suggestion, and its 20 degrees up here
If I were to do it - gonna have to wait for me to get a 223 and spring

in the mean-time, in my opinion
CRIMP WHEN ITS NEEDED:neener: and ignore the cannelure - AOL has to control

there you have your answer:D

No idea why some of these 223 bullets have a cannelure - for a different gun?? but from my reading, its really whether you have enough case neck tension, which is measured by - the bullet seating expands the case neck by 0.002" and 0.003" for semi-auto's - and that's getting into the case I.D., bullet O.D. and case neck thickness measurements and case neck expansion that might vary between bullets.

see this article
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
crimp discussion is near the bottom

Hondo 60
December 12, 2013, 03:01 AM
"The AR-15" by Patrick Sweeney has a crimp test chart.
In it he tested non-crimped vs lightly crimped.
The lightly crimped were more accurate & had a higher velocity.

In my own tests i've found this to be true for my AR as well.

But be aware, each gun is different so YMMV

steve4102
December 12, 2013, 09:15 AM
"The AR-15" by Patrick Sweeney has a crimp test chart.
In it he tested non-crimped vs lightly crimped.
The lightly crimped were more accurate & had a higher velocity.

In my own tests i've found this to be true for my AR as well.

But be aware, each gun is different so YMMV

I would really like to see this article.

I have been saying this for a long time. I have dozens of test targets from 223/AR to 300WSM/BAR and crimping has almost always increased accuracy.

There is even a test here using Bolt action were crimping showed improvements in accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Remember the old saying,
"Don't Knock It Till You Try It"

stavman11
December 12, 2013, 12:25 PM
How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !
LOL

Good Point...:D

Guess i was ASSUMING such results....LOL

stavman11
December 12, 2013, 12:31 PM
:what: Now wait a minute Rule:cuss:


Hey, it was stavmans suggestion, and its 20 degrees up here
If I were to do it - gonna have to wait for me to get a 223 and spring

in the mean-time, in my opinion
CRIMP WHEN ITS NEEDED:neener: and ignore the cannelure - AOL has to control

there you have your answer:D

No idea why some of these 223 bullets have a cannelure - for a different gun?? but from my reading, its really whether you have enough case neck tension, which is measured by - the bullet seating expands the case neck by 0.002" and 0.003" for semi-auto's - and that's getting into the case I.D., bullet O.D. and case neck thickness measurements and case neck expansion that might vary between bullets.

see this article
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
crimp discussion is near the bottom
Hmmmmm

weather is GREAT this week in Arizona...:neener: But not sure If i got Time right Now

Planning on going Tomorrow.... So If I get some time today to load up a few Crimped Loads i will

But dont hold yer breath on it Yet:D

M1key
December 12, 2013, 01:36 PM
another beat-to-death topic


I lightly crimp all 223 for ARs, 308 for FALs, Saigas, 7.62x39 for AKs, Mini-30s, ARs

Black Hills crimps ALL their 223 match (I have several types and loads) and no one complains about the accuracy.

I absolutely crimp 357Sig for my Glocks to eliminate bullet set-back and notice more consistent groups.

Next time you have opportunity, check how many ammo manufacturers crimp even their hunting ammo.

M

Walkalong
December 12, 2013, 02:31 PM
If a load needs to be crimped for better accuracy, IMHO, the load hasn't been tweaked correctly yet. JMO of course.

A crimp can help start pressures and a better powder burn, but there are others ways to do this as well.

stavman11
December 12, 2013, 02:39 PM
Managed to Crimp a few For tomorrow... and only Crushed 3 cases:what:.... The difference in Case Length of .013 makes a HUGE Difference:D another reason I dont Crimp .223;)

Ill try and test em Tomorrow if I do head to the Desert Range....

I also checked the Factory Ammo I have as M1key Suggested
Both PMC , std and TACT Zombie - Crimped
Fed American Eagle - no Crimp
HPR Clean 75gr BTHP Match - No Crimp
Independance israili - looks like a Wierd Crimp
Herters Steel case - No Crimp

so even the Match Factory ammo dosent have a Crimp

So here are the pics of my Crimped Loads
CFE223 with 27.1gr with 55gr Z-Max
Left load No Crimp
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/stavman11/new/IMG_20131212_111400_282_zps94588882.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/stavman11/media/new/IMG_20131212_111400_282_zps94588882.jpg.html)

So ill see how it Goes Tomorrow:D

SWThomas
December 12, 2013, 02:45 PM
steve4102
How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !

I was thinking the same thing.

Walkalong
December 12, 2013, 04:28 PM
The difference in Case Length of .013 makes a HUGE DifferenceYep, for a roll crimp you need consistent case lengths and cannelures. Another reason the Winchesters are a bad choice if you intend to crimp.

Those look good. I bought some of those because they were cheaper than the V Max.

Rule3
December 12, 2013, 04:55 PM
OK, Direct from a telephone conversation with Hornady. The 55 gr bullet #2267 with cannelure should be crimped.
Any of the bullets with a cannelure used in a AR10 or 15 platform they recommend crimping. Their factory ammo of this type is crimped.

moxie
December 12, 2013, 05:10 PM
Did he happen to explain why? Any reason other than that's the way they do it?

I'm all for crimping, when there is a reason for it. Shooting a 55 FMBJT out of a semi auto AR is not a reason. Crimping here doesn't solve anything.

Full auto is a reason. That's why military rounds (M193/855/etc.) are lightly crimped. Crimping helps prevent bullet "jump" out of rounds in mags/belts under the vibrations created by full auto fire.

FWIW, again, crimping will not prevent bullet setback. Case neck tension does that.

stavman11
December 12, 2013, 05:56 PM
Yep, for a roll crimp you need consistent case lengths and cannelures. Another reason the Winchesters are a bad choice if you intend to crimp.

Those look good. I bought some of those because they were cheaper than the V Max.
The Z-Max are Tac Drivers for sure...... Love em... and for Longer Range Shots.... Over 200yds they are great as well..

Did a Few more Loads for tomorrow...... so we shall see what I get..... assuming I do Bust out the Chrono and log Book....LOL

stavman11
December 12, 2013, 06:01 PM
OK, Direct from a telephone conversation with Hornady. The 55 gr bullet #2267 with cannelure should be crimped.
Any of the bullets with a cannelure used in a AR10 or 15 platform they recommend crimping. Their factory ammo of this type is crimped.
Interesting....

Maybe with the NEW brass i just got.... Ill trim and test a large Group for Craps and Giggles for Fun...

Maybe 3-4 different Bullets... with and without Crimp...

I have an Xtra Seating Die... so I could just Pull one and Install the Other


DAMN IT......... Now I have ANOTHER Project on the Books...

umm Honey.... No Winter Garden.... I Gotta do some Bullet testing AGAIN.....LOL

gahunter12
December 12, 2013, 06:16 PM
Crimping and the Lee Factory Crimp die are the surest way to ruin a good bullet.

I will have to disagree here. I can care less about the FCD for hand gun loads, but I do use a FCD for my .223 rounds I use for Tactical Rifle matches, and training classes. Those rounds usually see 3-4 round rapid fire as fast as I can squeeze them off. My hunting loads for pigs/coyote hunting are NOT crimped. I fill there's really no need to crimp, but the light collet crimp I apply with the FCD is extra insurance for the rate of fire I see during matches.

As for deforming the bullet.... I have pulled bullets that were crimped, and not crimped just to find out if it did deform the bullet. So far I can't tell a difference. That said, if you apply a med, or strong crimp it may deform the bullet for sure.

steve4102
December 12, 2013, 06:52 PM
If a load needs to be crimped for better accuracy, IMHO, the load hasn't been tweaked correctly yet.

Really?

Who said a load "Needs" to be crimped for better accuracy?

Those of us that crimp, crimp for several reasons and accuracy is just one of the benefits.

Your comment is A-Kin to saying,

If OAL needs to be adjusted for better accuracy then the Load Hasn't been worked up properly.

Or, if you need to adjust the powder charge for better accuracy then the load hasn't been tweaked properly.

Or, if your brass needs to be Neck sized for better accuracy then you didn't FL size properly.

Or, if you need to use Mag primers then you didn't spend enough time working with standard primers.

Or, if your Lapua brass is more accurate then your Win brass then you didn't tweak the Win brass properly.

What does it all mean? It means you don'y know what you are talking about as far as crimping goes.

It is just another tool and technique, if you don't like it fine, don't crimp, but don't tell me I am incompetent or cutting corners if I find it beneficial.

Walkalong
December 12, 2013, 07:53 PM
Who said a load "Needs" to be crimped for better accuracy?
Well, it sounded like you did.
I would really like to see this article.

I have been saying this for a long time. I have dozens of test targets from 223/AR to 300WSM/BAR and crimping has almost always increased accuracy.

There is even a test here using Bolt action were crimping showed improvements in accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Remember the old saying,
"Don't Knock It Till You Try It"
Other than that, I guess we just disagree on that one, and I most certainly did not call you incompetent. I merely disagreed that the best accuracy could not be found without crimping. After all, you did say it almost always increased accuracy. I am, however, sorry that I upset you. :)

Potatohead
December 12, 2013, 09:25 PM
Really?

Who said a load "Needs" to be crimped for better accuracy?

Those of us that crimp, crimp for several reasons and accuracy is just one of the benefits.

Your comment is A-Kin to saying,

If OAL needs to be adjusted for better accuracy then the Load Hasn't been worked up properly.

Or, if you need to adjust the powder charge for better accuracy then the load hasn't been tweaked properly.

Or, if your brass needs to be Neck sized for better accuracy then you didn't FL size properly.

Or, if you need to use Mag primers then you didn't spend enough time working with standard primers.

Or, if your Lapua brass is more accurate then your Win brass then you didn't tweak the Win brass properly.

What does it all mean? It means you don'y know what you are talking about as far as crimping goes.

It is just another tool and technique, if you don't like it fine, don't crimp, but don't tell me I am incompetent or cutting corners if I find it beneficial.
Sorry for an off topic comment here but geez man, lighten up. I hate to see a fellow member bust a blood vessel.

steve4102
December 12, 2013, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Who said a load "Needs" to be crimped for better accuracy?
Well, it sounded like you did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve4102 View Post
I would really like to see this article.

I have been saying this for a long time. I have dozens of test targets from 223/AR to 300WSM/BAR and crimping has almost always increased accuracy.

There is even a test here using Bolt action were crimping showed improvements in accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Remember the old saying,
"Don't Knock It Till You Try It"
Other than that, I guess we just disagree on that one, and I most certainly did not call you incompetent. I merely disagreed that the best accuracy could not be found without crimping. After all, you did say it almost always increased accuracy.

Have you ever done any accuracy testing with the Lee Factory Crimp Die? I mean real testing? Or are you basing this comment on what you have read on the Internet?

Give it a try, a real try.
Take several of you loads that you have worked so hard on and give them a run through the LFCD then report back. Then tell me that it is just a band-aid for poor loading practices.

mtrmn
December 13, 2013, 04:13 PM
I crimp em all. Eases my mind and that's that.

wackemanstackem
December 13, 2013, 08:37 PM
I firmly agree that bullets like Hornady put that cannelure on those bullets for a reason .Perfect neck tension and a little crimp around that cannalure just makes sence to me no matter what I am shootin at.If none was needed why would they go through the trouble of building a bullet with it if it wasnt needed.And if the military uses it I want to be like them cause there good at what they do.And they do things for a reason.

moxie
December 14, 2013, 01:59 PM
Again, the reason the military specs a crimped case into a cannelured bullet is to prevent bullet jump during FULL AUTO fire.

Dr.Zubrato
December 14, 2013, 11:33 PM
wackemanstackem:
following mil spec is extremely tedious and expensive. i propose to you this: do you crimp your primer pockets, use brand new brass, store your cases in the correct size milspec cardboard, test chamber pressures, or use the same projectile/primers/powders as m193/m855?

if so, I've got a mil-spec hammer for sale...:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packard_Commission

7mmsavage
December 15, 2013, 12:07 AM
I mainly load Hornady FMJBT 55 gr bullets with canelure, for use in an AR, and I always crimp. Maybe the expander in my Lee die is too big like someone mentioned earlier, but I don't get enough neck tension without crimping. I didn't crimp at first, but once I had a mis-feed and the bullet was pushed way back into the case. Luckily it didn't chamber or I probably would have ended up with a big KB. Again, maybe it's just my dies, but it puts my mind at ease and is what works for me.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 11:02 AM
I mainly load Hornady FMJBT 55 gr bullets with canelure, for use in an AR, and I always crimp. Maybe the expander in my Lee die is too big like someone mentioned earlier, but I don't get enough neck tension without crimping. I didn't crimp at first, but once I had a mis-feed and the bullet was pushed way back into the case. Luckily it didn't chamber or I probably would have ended up with a big KB. Again, maybe it's just my dies, but it puts my mind at ease and is what works for me.

I would still check those dies and expander ball.

Measure the outside diameter of a sized case. Seat a bullet and measure again. Should be at least .002 difference IMO.

Walkalong
December 15, 2013, 11:16 AM
Agreed. You should have better neck tension than that. May be as simple as polishing the expander plug.

Try what steve4102 suggested.

Another test is to size a case with the expander, and then without the expander and check the difference in OD. Or ID if you have pin gauges or a quality small hole gauge. OD is much easier to get right.

aklaunch
December 15, 2013, 11:56 AM
This web site has so much good information written and edited by engineers and professionals.

This is lengthy... But great!

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

Another page of fun:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm

Most light cannelures could be to weaken to the bullet so it breaks a little easier.

M1key
December 15, 2013, 03:19 PM
Most light cannelures could be to weaken to the bullet so it breaks a little easier.

Hey, there's a thought...

M

kostner
December 15, 2013, 10:33 PM
Yes I use a LFC die and it has worked well for me.

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