IL - 1000s Won't be Able to Apply For Concealed Carry License


PDA






wtr100
December 12, 2013, 04:35 PM
from http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=43469


1000s Won't be Able to Apply For Concealed Carry License

Due to Illinois State Police

Complicated Application Process


ISP Says Only Digital/Online ApplicationsTo Be Accepted!

1000s of Illinois citizens won't be able to apply for a concealed carry license, if the Illinois State Police proposed rules and regulations are approved by the Joint Committee on Administrative Rules on Dec. 17, 2013. ISP administrators say requiring electronic applications will make it easier for the ISP licensing division and will speed up the application process.

However, 1,000s of Illinois residents do not have computers and internet access, and even if they did, they do not have the technical knowledge to maneuver through the complicated process of creating a digital signature, or scanning and attaching the required documents and photo. The process also requires applicant to set up an online ePay account in order to pay the license fee online with a credit card. This requirement will make it impossible for people who do not use credit cards.

A great many people will be able to navigate the digital process just fine, but there must be a process made available for those without computers/internet/credit cards to fill out a paper application, put it in a paper envelope along with a paper check or money order, and mailed with a paper stamp.

Other problems with ISP's proposed rules:
1. Their definition of a state's carry law needing to be substantially similar to IL nearly rules out all carry licenses for out of state residents. The definition should be that the state preforms a background check, has a reasonable amount of training, and they prohibit people with a mental health problem that show a clear and present danger.

2. ISP goes beyond the law and requires non-law enforcement instructors to have a current carry license but exempts instructors who are law enforcement. The Firearm Concealed Carry Act requires all instructors to be treated equally.

3. ISP has changed the definition of law enforcement official to include only LEOs who are employed, which rules out auxiliary law enforcement officials.



Contact JCAR members now!
Urge them to stand up for the 1000s of elderly and poor who will be denied the right to apply for a concealed carry license because they do not have the computer/internet resources to apply online for a license.
Urge them to fairly define "substantially similar" so your family and friends who live out of state can obtain a carry license in order to protect themselves while in IL.
Urge them to treat all instructors to the same requirements.
Urge them to treat auxilary officials the same as employed in regards to training requirements and other aspects of the Firearm Concealed Carry Act.



Co-Chairman Sen. Don Harmon
(217) 782-8176
(708) 848-2002
dharmon@senatedem.ilga.gov


Co-Chairman Rep. Timothy Schmitz
(217) 782-5457
(630) 845-9590
info@timschmitz.org

Sen. Pamela Althoff
(217) 782-8000
(815) 455-6330
Email


Sen. Tony Munoz
(217) 782-9415
(773) 869-9050
Email


Sen. Sue Rezin
(217) 782-3840
(815) 220-8720
senatorrezin@gmail.com


Sen. Dale Righter
(217) 782-6674
(217) 235-6033
drighter@consolidated.net


Sen. Ira Silverstein
(217) 782-5500
(773) 743-5015
Email


Rep. Gregory Harris
(217) 782-3835
(773) 348-3434
Email


Rep. Lou Lang
(217) 782-1252
(847) 673-1131
langli@ilga.gov


Rep. David Leitch
(217) 782-8108
(309) 690-7373
repdavidleitch@gmail.com


Rep. Don Moffitt
(217) 782-8032
(309) 343-8000
moffitt@grics.net


Rep. Andre Thapedi
(217) 782-1702
(773) 873-4444
rep32district@gmail.com

If you enjoyed reading about "IL - 1000s Won't be Able to Apply For Concealed Carry License" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ewlyon
December 12, 2013, 05:39 PM
I imagine the best work around for this would be for gun shops to start helping people with the paperwork. Some of the bigger shops could easily set up a computer for customers to use for this if the state police dont change their minds.

Bubbles
December 12, 2013, 06:01 PM
Exactly. Wouldn't even need to be a gun shop, just someone with a scanner, camera, and CC who would be willing to help people submit applications.

ATLDave
December 12, 2013, 06:44 PM
Hello disparate impact. The impact of this will fall most heavily on economically-challenged minorities. Disappointing (to me) that so many liberals who are (rightly) determined to protect equal access to the ballot for those who lack the sophistication to navigate complex government certification requirements are so eager to erect similar barriers to deny equal access to another constitutional right. Rank hypocrisy.

wildbilll
December 12, 2013, 06:48 PM
My response is that this is 2013. The internet has existed for about 20 years to the masses.
I am sure that someone who does not have internet at home will be able to find someone to help them.
The ISP does not want to deal with paper, hence the electronic submissions.
Look at it this way, the application won't get lost in the mail. It won't get lost on someone's desk. It won't have as many errors. It allows for you to go online and see what is taking so #*$&^ long for them to process the application.
My advice to those people is find a friend and go to the library. They have internet there.
And they are able to save the cost of the postage stamp.
I just got a notice from PA for a renewal there, they say you have to apply in person because the have to capture an electronic photo and signature. This is the wave of the future.

Mike1234567
December 12, 2013, 07:49 PM
^^^ That's absolutely true but some folks are either, so out-of-tune with technology that they don't know how to ask for help, or they're too embarrassed to ask. So they give up and do without.

9w1911
December 13, 2013, 03:17 AM
you can use a computer for free and access the internets at a public library,

Willie Sutton
December 13, 2013, 07:16 AM
^^ This.

It's a <yawn> moment.

You can't even apply for a job at Walmart without doing it on a computer. If you can't do it yourself, there are volunteers at about any library that can assist.



"some folks are either, so out-of-tune with technology that they don't know how to ask for help, or they're too embarrassed to ask. So they give up and do without."

Oh well. Shame on them. It can't be too important to them then. Some folks can't read either. Should we have an application using a variety of pictures that you circle and a place to put your "X" at the bottom? :rolleyes:


Mebbe those folks can get some help from a friend, same as those who've never seen a computer before.


Willie

.

Carl N. Brown
December 13, 2013, 07:36 AM
Critics of right-to-carry like to complain that pistol permits appear concentrated in upper-class low-crime neighborhoods where there is less need for self-defense, yet they don't mind rules like these (access to computers, scanners, fax machines, internet finance, etc) that in effect bar people who live in lower-class high-crime neighborhoods where there is more need for self-defense. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Willie Sutton
December 13, 2013, 07:44 AM
Anyone in any neighborhood in any city in the USA can walk to a library to obtain free internet access.

Lack of access is not an excuse, nor is lack of literacy.


Willie

.

HexHead
December 13, 2013, 08:01 AM
IL is determined to make the process and difficult, expensive and onerous as possible. This surprises who?

OilyPablo
December 13, 2013, 08:01 AM
Yes, seems a bit hollow. I can see someone saying they can't afford to own a computer, but even that's a stretch now days. Mostly like they don't want to learn.

ilbob
December 13, 2013, 08:33 AM
The process has some warts but the law itself is far worse. Better to focus on fixing a horrible law with many traps in it than worrying about minor stuff like this.

Sam1911
December 13, 2013, 08:42 AM
IL is determined to make the process and difficult, expensive and onerous as possible. This surprises who?

Ehhh...yes, but like Willie and others said, I can't really view putting stuff on line (only) as being a deliberate attempt to make it hard for folks. The numbers of people who don't use computers and have 'net access on their own is small to the point of vanishing, and access is completely free and public even to those people.

Now, if they'd gone the other way and said it's ONLY available in paper form and you have to come in and get your paper forms from us -- just like it used to be only a few years ago in every state that issued permits -- would we be fussing?

It's almost 2014, there is a big push to get rid of paper forms and paper form storage and handling and that's not a bad thing.

There's lots to complain about in how IL is doing this, but I think I'd give this particular issue a pass. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, you know?

HexHead
December 13, 2013, 09:08 AM
TN is one of, if not the, easiest states to do business with over the internet, yet we can't even renew our HCP online, much less apply for one. I find it inconceivable IL is doing this to make it easier for people. If this were voting related, it would be considered in the same vein as a poll tax, looking to disenfranchise the poor from being able to get a carry permit.

ilbob
December 13, 2013, 09:16 AM
how about we fix a law that allows one to go hiking armed in a local FP but you are guilty of a class B misdemeanor for stepping inside an outhouse to take a leak.

instead we waste time and energy on trailer bills that further restrict our rights but cater to a few dozen people who want to skip the required training because they took the LEO firearms training 40 years ago or are correctional officers.

Sam1911
December 13, 2013, 09:39 AM
TN is one of, if not the, easiest states to do business with over the internet, yet we can't even renew our HCP online, much less apply for one.OMG, that's terrible! Are you working to fix that?

Sam1911
December 13, 2013, 09:41 AM
If this were voting related, it would be considered in the same vein as a poll tax, looking to disenfranchise the poor from being able to get a carry permit.Disenfranchise the poor by giving them a way to go to their local library (for FREE) or internet cafe (for a couple of bucks?) and do something at the time and place of their choosing, rather than have to go to a specific government building at very specific office hours, probably wait in line several times, and deal face-to-face with government employees?

Think about that again. Doesn't wash.

wtr100
December 13, 2013, 11:18 AM
you can use a computer for free and access the internets at a public library,
but what about a scanner

as a guy who's teaching a fair number of old timers it will be a real challenge for some of them to the point they say 'screw it' and don't apply

which is pretty much the point of the exercise from the point of the ISP - have as few applications as possible

wtr100
December 13, 2013, 11:22 AM
how about we fix a law that allows one to go hiking armed in a local FP but you are guilty of a class B misdemeanor for stepping inside an outhouse to take a leak.

instead we waste time and energy on trailer bills that further restrict our rights but cater to a few dozen people who want to skip the required training because they took the LEO firearms training 40 years ago or are correctional officers.
The King's men should have no more privileges the 128 hours a week they're off the clock than the rest of us peasants.

If the world made sense the King's Men would draw arms from the Arms Locker at the beginning of the shift and check it in at the end. Carry outside work hours would be based in a permit just like the rest of us.

Mike1234567
December 13, 2013, 12:23 PM
Anyone in any neighborhood in any city in the USA can walk to a library to obtain free internet access.

Lack of access is not an excuse, nor is lack of literacy.

I live 25 miles from the nearest library and I can't walk. However, I am literate, own a reliable vehicle and have internet access... but that's not my point. There are many people who will do without as a repercussion of these new requirements.

ilbob
December 13, 2013, 12:30 PM
I am not sure any of this makes any real difference. Most people who look closely at how many places are banned from carry, they are going to realize it is mostly a permit to carry in your car and leave it there, except for the places where you can't carry in your car. If they actually realize how limited it is, relatively few people will bother to get a FCCL.

wildbilll
December 13, 2013, 12:43 PM
The references to being unfair to the poor because of a lack of internet access won't really ring true with the courts. $150, plus a convenience fee for the mandatory Epay, totaling $153 will get a court's attention.
Add to that the costs for the un-justifiable 16 hour course ($200 plus).
Add to that the redundancy of needing a FOID card, although only $10 for 10 years, we have a pattern of excessive regulation.
Why should someone need a FOID card if they are going to get a more in depth background check every 5 years?

Mike1234567
December 13, 2013, 12:54 PM
Money... taxes... money... taxes... we won't concern ourselves with those who can't pay to acquire self protection. We want our money. Streamlining the process saves us even more money. We love money. To heck with those with none spare to give us for the privilege of defending themselves. We want OUR MONEY!!

ilbob
December 13, 2013, 01:45 PM
The cost to buy an appropriate firearm, ammunition, and accessories is likely to exceed the cost of the license and the training.

I think it will be hard to convince a court that the cost of training and licensing is excessive. especially given that the cost of licensing is not real far off from states considered far more gun friendly Like TX and FL. TX is $140 and FL is $112.

One could argue both TC and FL are more intrusive as both require fingerprinting while IL does not.

Mike1234567
December 13, 2013, 02:40 PM
The cost to buy an appropriate firearm, ammunition, and accessories is likely to exceed the cost of the license and the training.

I think it will be hard to convince a court that the cost of training and licensing is excessive. especially given that the cost of licensing is not real far off from states considered far more gun friendly Like TX and FL. TX is $140 and FL is $112.

One could argue both TC and FL are more intrusive as both require fingerprinting while IL does not.

RE prohibitive costs: Mmm... $200 for a used Hi-Point 9mm and a box of cheap FMJ... vs all the extra expenses? I don't think so.

ilbob
December 13, 2013, 03:37 PM
RE prohibitive costs: Mmm... $200 for a used Hi-Point 9mm and a box of cheap FMJ... vs all the extra expenses? I don't think so.
you really think that an average judge is going to buy into the argument that a Yugo is the typical car someone is likely to buy.

no doubt there will be some instruction available to some people at no cost at all. does that mean everyone should be considered to have a free pass for training so the training cost is not an issue?

Mike1234567
December 13, 2013, 06:49 PM
^^^ WTH?? Haven't you EVER been broke... or known someone who was... just trying desperately to feed their family? If not then you're completely out of touch with the realities of "common folk"... who may, or may not, deserve the right to self defense... depending on your whim.

wildbilll
December 14, 2013, 01:15 PM
The cost to buy an appropriate firearm, ammunition, and accessories is likely to exceed the cost of the license and the training.

I think it will be hard to convince a court that the cost of training and licensing is excessive. especially given that the cost of licensing is not real far off from states considered far more gun friendly Like TX and FL. TX is $140 and FL is $112.

One could argue both TC and FL are more intrusive as both require fingerprinting while IL does not.
FL is good for 7 years. Who else clips non-residents for $300 besides IL? Who else requires 16 hours of training? Who else requires a FOID card, then a FCCL on top of that?
And just because IL might not be alone in the gouging department doesn't make it right. What is relevant is the cost of providing the service. IL earmarks some of the money to other purposes. It's a long way to justify $150 or $300 for something that doesn't really amount to much more that what it takes to provide a 10 year, $10 FOID.

Kingcreek
December 16, 2013, 01:49 PM
I just spoke with my reps office. There are numerous UNNECESSARY problems with the law and the changes they keep throwing out. They are trying to fix some of it but they only seem to do everything the hard way. Gotta luv Illinois. Jeez, throw those Chicago D idiots off the committees and I think it would work.

RetiredUSNChief
December 19, 2013, 11:46 PM
Looks like some of my responses have already been addressed on this issue, however:

1. This isn't the 1980's...computers are everywhere, even if you don't own one. Public librarys have them free for use.

2. Anybody who would be able to spend the kind of money it takes to own and shoot a firearm should be able to at least buy a low-end computer that will do everything they reasonably need at an affordable price, comparatively speaking. A used laptop with WiFi can be used at any free hotspot.

3. You don't need a "real" credit card nowadays. Drop into any corner drug store, or nearly any other store, and buy a VISA gift card. Works just like a real credit/debit card. And PayPal can be linked to a bank account as well as a credit card.


I'm sure this may be an inconvenience to some...but not nearly the inconvenience I experienced many years ago when I was still a resident of Indiana, which is a "shall-issue" state.

In Lafayette, I could ONLY pick up the paperwork one day of the week, in the middle of the week, between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon. The paperwork HAD to be typed, not printed, according to the police directions (despite the form saying "typed or neatly printed"). It could ONLY be turned in on that ONE day of the week between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon, with the processing fee. After a week or so it could be picked up but ONLY on that ONE day of the week between the hours of 1 and 2. Then you mailed in your paperwork, along with the local PD form letter that said that they didn't really think that you needed a concealed carry permit because the crime rate didn't warrant it, mumble mumble something about training, blah blah blah.

So, optimally speaking, it took me at least three consecutive weekly trips to the police department while taking time off of work in the middle of the afternoon during the week just to get my paperwork processed and ready to mail to the state police.

Then you mailed it off with your fee to the state police and in a few weeks you got your nice, pink concealed carry permit in the mail...good for 4 years.

See the trend? A shall-issue state, but with a pain in the keister process locally.


If it's computerized, then the forms can be completed at ANY time of the day or week. And that alone takes a lot of the hassle out of it. And computerized forms remove the hassle of shuffling paperwork through the postal service and the many desks and hands it requires to process it, which in turn speeds things up and prevents them from being lost.

HKGuns
December 20, 2013, 12:41 AM
^^^ That's absolutely true but some folks are either, so out-of-tune with technology that they don't know how to ask for help, or they're too embarrassed to ask. So they give up and do without.


......and perhaps they shouldn't carry a concealed pistol either.

RPRNY
December 20, 2013, 12:56 AM
Hello disparate impact. The impact of this will fall most heavily on economically-challenged minorities. Disappointing (to me) that so many liberals who are (rightly) determined to protect equal access to the ballot for those who lack the sophistication to navigate complex government certification requirements are so eager to erect similar barriers to deny equal access to another constitutional right. Rank hypocrisy.

Nailed it. The hypocrisy of this regulation, designed to subvert both a constitutional right and the recent SCOTUS ruling that required the change in IL law, and this regulation, is staggering. Regulations that inhibit voting by illegal aliens, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, are abhorrent while regulations that diminish access to exercise of 2nd Amendment rights by the poor are reasonable. Marxist-Liberalist doublethink in action.

marv
December 20, 2013, 01:09 AM
I read yesterday that they will accept paper applications.

Trent
December 20, 2013, 04:00 AM
I've done the online application (instructors were invited to do them early).

Was a pain in the butt, and I had to actually go find an older computer to use. Couldn't get it to work with windows 8.1. But it worked fine with Windows 7.

It's a somewhat lengthy process. Going through and making an IL state digital ID before you can even start. Then you have to have your digital photograph of yourself, and your certificate(s) scanned in and ready to upload.

Have your FOID and drivers license handy, when you do it as well. You need the drivers license information to create your state ID. (They ask for the license # and for several pieces of information on the license itself that has to be entered exactly).

You also need a credit card with MORE than $150 on it as they charge almost $4 for "processing fees" on top of the $150 fee!

Cooldill
December 20, 2013, 04:40 AM
Most of the people in my area of Illinois without internet access probably don't even know IL is up for concealed carry at all. Hell most probably still think the Earth is flat.

KIDDING! Really though, as much as I hate paperwork on the computer, I can't say this is a terrible thing. Like some others mentioned this will probably be more efficient than going with paper. The people who TRULY "don't have internet access" I'm sure are few and far between. You are telling me they don't have access to any place with public computers nor do they have any family members or friends with a computer who could help them? Not in my home state.

rugerman07
December 20, 2013, 07:27 AM
I read yesterday that they will accept paper applications. YES. Paper applications will be accepted but not until, July, 2014.

rugerman07
December 20, 2013, 07:29 AM
What epay source is the ISP using? Paypal?

ilbob
December 20, 2013, 11:17 AM
^^^ WTH?? Haven't you EVER been broke... or known someone who was... just trying desperately to feed their family? If not then you're completely out of touch with the realities of "common folk"... who may, or may not, deserve the right to self defense... depending on your whim.
don't matter one bit what you or I think. you have to convince a judge.

ilbob
December 20, 2013, 11:24 AM
Nailed it. The hypocrisy of this regulation, designed to subvert both a constitutional right and the recent SCOTUS ruling that required the change in IL law, and this regulation, is staggering. Regulations that inhibit voting by illegal aliens, who overwhelmingly vote Democrat, are abhorrent while regulations that diminish access to exercise of 2nd Amendment rights by the poor are reasonable. Marxist-Liberalist doublethink in action.
you have to realize that the whole bill was written to make it as unappealing to urban folks as they could possibly make it. they did a fine job of that.

the so called safe harbor provision of leaving a gun in your vehicle makes it more palatable if you live outside urban areas where you mostly have to drive anyway, so you mostly have a place to leave the gun when you enter a prohibited place.

If you live in urban areas and take public transportation, you are screwed because there is just no place to leave it. You would be at the mercy of the dubious idea that you can "transport" it on public transportation versus "carrying" it, but now you are in a very murky area of the law where you are either in violation of the FCCA (6 months in the pokey) or in violation of the "firearm on public property" law which is a year. Neither is really a good choice so I suspect most people who take public transportation will be forced to leave their guns at home.

Mike1234567
December 20, 2013, 12:21 PM
Looks like some of my responses have already been addressed on this issue, however:

1. This isn't the 1980's...computers are everywhere, even if you don't own one. Public librarys have them free for use.

2. Anybody who would be able to spend the kind of money it takes to own and shoot a firearm should be able to at least buy a low-end computer that will do everything they reasonably need at an affordable price, comparatively speaking. A used laptop with WiFi can be used at any free hotspot.

3. You don't need a "real" credit card nowadays. Drop into any corner drug store, or nearly any other store, and buy a VISA gift card. Works just like a real credit/debit card. And PayPal can be linked to a bank account as well as a credit card.


I'm sure this may be an inconvenience to some...but not nearly the inconvenience I experienced many years ago when I was still a resident of Indiana, which is a "shall-issue" state.

In Lafayette, I could ONLY pick up the paperwork one day of the week, in the middle of the week, between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon. The paperwork HAD to be typed, not printed, according to the police directions (despite the form saying "typed or neatly printed"). It could ONLY be turned in on that ONE day of the week between the hours of 1 and 2 in the afternoon, with the processing fee. After a week or so it could be picked up but ONLY on that ONE day of the week between the hours of 1 and 2. Then you mailed in your paperwork, along with the local PD form letter that said that they didn't really think that you needed a concealed carry permit because the crime rate didn't warrant it, mumble mumble something about training, blah blah blah.

So, optimally speaking, it took me at least three consecutive weekly trips to the police department while taking time off of work in the middle of the afternoon during the week just to get my paperwork processed and ready to mail to the state police.

Then you mailed it off with your fee to the state police and in a few weeks you got your nice, pink concealed carry permit in the mail...good for 4 years.

See the trend? A shall-issue state, but with a pain in the keister process locally.


If it's computerized, then the forms can be completed at ANY time of the day or week. And that alone takes a lot of the hassle out of it. And computerized forms remove the hassle of shuffling paperwork through the postal service and the many desks and hands it requires to process it, which in turn speeds things up and prevents them from being lost.

Chief... Why not offer both methods? Since, as others say, the electronic forms are far easier for most people and most people are savvy enough and have access to computers and internet services, all those people will utilize that method. This will cut those using the old inefficient paper method by 99 percent. So... why not allow those without those skills and services to file via the old method? It'll only be 1 percent of the workload... and that 1 percent can still apply.

Sam1911
December 20, 2013, 12:51 PM
Chief... Why not offer both methods?

Mike, they will. Read post 37.

Mike1234567
December 20, 2013, 01:57 PM
Mike, they will. Read post 37.

Thanks, Sam. My argument is toward those who advocate completely eliminating paper applications which, IMHO, would be unfair to a few applicants.

DammitBoy
December 20, 2013, 11:12 PM
The entire process is unfair and should be illegal

ilbob
December 21, 2013, 10:26 AM
The entire process is unfair and should be illegal
I doubt many of us would disagree but it is what the NRA, the ISRA, and IllinoisCarry got us.

I think we would have been better off with nothing at this stage of the game.

DT Guy
December 21, 2013, 01:54 PM
I think we all need to step back and put this in perspective: this state fought this tooth, fang and claw, right down to the wire. We have a completely liberally controlled state legislature, a laughably inept, nearly unintelligible but supremely liberal Governor, and Obama's former right-hand man running the city (AKA, 'the tail that wags the dog.')

Our carry bill being 'shall issue' is more than I hoped for, and we have shifted the momentum of the debate permanently in our favor; rescinding the right to carry in Illinois has become essentially impossible, where for my lifetime HAVING the right to carry in Illinois was unthinkable. We have a state full of people who have NEVER known armed citizens, and have been brainwashed to believe it will be 'blood in the streets' by Rahm, Pat Quinn and Garry 'Streetlights' McCarthy.

When that doesn't happen, when the sky DOESN'T fall, and when stories start to get reported about a goblin occasionally getting the wrong end of a crime, we will start making even more headway with the public.

Am I thrilled by the bill? Hell no. Am I amazed at how good it IS, for the time and place it had to be debated? Hell yes.


Larry

C0untZer0
December 21, 2013, 02:59 PM
Its amazing to me how differently the Second Amendment is treated by the court.

No one in the poor inner city neighborhoods has the ability to apply digitally and very very few have the ability to pay the kind of money that is required and that is exactly how the overlords of the Chicago Democratic Machine designed it to be.

When that doesn't happen, when the sky DOESN'T fall, and when stories start to get reported about a goblin occasionally getting the wrong end of a crime, we will start making even more headway with the public.

I don't think so - because no one can get a bill out of Madigan's executive committee - that makes him the most powerful politician in Illinois, more powerfull than the governor.

The only reason we got the Family and Personal Protection Act passed was because Judge Posner & CA7's ruling meant that if they didn't pass the act, Illinois would revert to some kind of "court carry" - similar to constitutional carry.

ilbob
December 21, 2013, 03:41 PM
Its amazing to me how differently the Second Amendment is treated by the court.

No one in the poor inner city neighborhoods has the ability to apply digitally and very very few have the ability to pay the kind of money that is required and that is exactly how the overlords of the Chicago Democratic Machine designed it to be.



I don't think so - because no one can get a bill out of Madigan's executive committee - that makes him the most powerful politician in Illinois, more powerfull than the governor.

The only reason we got the Family and Personal Protection Act passed was because Judge Posner & CA7's ruling meant that if they didn't pass the act, Illinois would revert to some kind of "court carry" - similar to constitutional carry.
There are plenty of court cases to come that will deal with some of the more onerous issues with the law.

One thing that probably won't change is the cost and the background check. IL is not far off from most states on those things and it is unlikely a federal court will want to try and decide what an appropriate cost is for a LTC.

A state court might take the bite though.

The Family and Personal Protection Act never even came close to passing. What passed is called the Firearms Concealed Carry Act. It is a completely different animal.

wildbilll
December 21, 2013, 04:44 PM
At some point there will be a way to tell what the actual costs are to produce a permit. This is the point where the state will be shown to be profiting off of the backs of those trying to exercise their civil rights. The fact that they are taking money from these people to pay for other programs will be held unconstitutional. In court, the argument that they have to charge these fees to make sure we are legally able to safely carry a firearm concealed won't fly when they are shown to be doing other things with the money.
They are gouging. They know it. Poll tax.

wildbilll
December 21, 2013, 04:48 PM
What epay source is the ISP using? Paypal?
It is going to be some company that you and I have never heard of that is politically crony coupled to someone in the IL government.

Trent
December 21, 2013, 05:09 PM
I don't know who is doing the payment processing, specifically, but they're charging a $3 and some change surcharge to the licensing fee to process your payment!

From my credit card online statement when I submitted my app and paid:

12/18/13 12/18/13 ISP CONCEALED CARRY IN SPRINGFIELD IL
<REFERENCE {redacted}>
$150.00
12/18/13 12/18/13 IL ISP FORTE*SERVICE F SPRINGFIELD IL
<REFERENCE {redacted}>
$3.53

Trent
December 21, 2013, 05:10 PM
(I question the legality of that surcharge, as the $150 Licensing fee should be inclusive of any processing fees)

The law doesn't say "$150 plus whatever reasonable additional fees the state police decide to charge."

ilbob
December 21, 2013, 05:32 PM
It is going to be some company that you and I have never heard of that is politically crony coupled to someone in the IL government.
The state treasurer's office is in charge of this aspect of it, just as they are in charge of epay for all other state departments.

http://www.illinoisepay.com/

ilbob
December 21, 2013, 05:36 PM
At some point there will be a way to tell what the actual costs are to produce a permit. This is the point where the state will be shown to be profiting off of the backs of those trying to exercise their civil rights. The fact that they are taking money from these people to pay for other programs will be held unconstitutional. In court, the argument that they have to charge these fees to make sure we are legally able to safely carry a firearm concealed won't fly when they are shown to be doing other things with the money.
They are gouging. They know it. Poll tax.
Has there ever been a federal court case that says it is unconstitutional to charge a license fee that exceeds the cost of the license?

In any case, the courts have struck down poll taxes entirely, even where it only covered the cost of administering elections.

Edmond
December 22, 2013, 10:29 AM
Wow, I bet if people had to do this to vote, the libs would be crying racism and how unfair it is! :uhoh:

While this concealed carry is better than nothing, I hope the ISRA and NRA will fight all the BS in court with the 16 hours training and psych eval BS.

C0untZer0
December 22, 2013, 12:13 PM
So the leading case that challenged exorbitant fees was Kwong v Bloomberg

Kwong lost at the CA2 because IMO, the court both applied Rational Basis and failed to properly consider the Equal Protection aspects of the case.

The plaintiff just got an extension to appeal to the Supreme Court.

But I'm not optimistic now, I though Woollard was very disappointing.

wildbilll
December 22, 2013, 12:50 PM
Has there ever been a federal court case that says it is unconstitutional to charge a license fee that exceeds the cost of the license?

In any case, the courts have struck down poll taxes entirely, even where it only covered the cost of administering elections.
No court case that I am aware of - yet. Note that the terms "tax" and "fee", while we view them as really the same thing, have a distinction legally. It's one thing to tax something. It's quite another to charge a fee for a service, then use the fee from the service to fund something else.
So we have them in a corner. They can't call it a tax, because taxing a right gets us to the poll tax argument. We have voter registration, we have registration cards. They do not dare charge for that.
They call it a fee, then we find that they are actually charging more than it takes to provide the service, they are actually using these monies to pay for other programs, effectively taxing our rights to pay for their pet projects.
This is the type of argument that will come as the issue coalesces.
Soon I hope.

http://www.guns.com/2013/03/15/chicago-gun-shops-sue-cook-county-over-25-firearm-tax/

C0untZer0
December 22, 2013, 12:58 PM
Has there ever been a federal court case that says it is unconstitutional to charge a license fee that exceeds the cost of the license?

Kwong v Bloomberg

http://ramblingsonappeal.blogspot.com/2013/07/unpacking-kwong-v-bloomberg-how.html

hso
December 22, 2013, 01:04 PM
1. This isn't the 1980's...computers are everywhere, even if you don't own one. Public librarys have them free for use.

2. Anybody who would be able to spend the kind of money it takes to own and shoot a firearm should be able to at least buy a low-end computer that will do everything they reasonably need at an affordable price, comparatively speaking. A used laptop with WiFi can be used at any free hotspot.

3. You don't need a "real" credit card nowadays. Drop into any corner drug store, or nearly any other store, and buy a VISA gift card. Works just like a real credit/debit card. And PayPal can be linked to a bank account as well as a credit card.


1) That's not a valid assumption. "everywhere" is actually out of reach for some in any practical sense.

2) That's not always the case either. A $250 revolver + the $400 price of a low end computer is about three times what some working poor can afford. You're also suggesting that a citizen should have to pay hundreds of additional dollars on top of the burdensome fee to avail themselves of a carry permit. WiFi might nearly be ubiquitous, but it isn't quite in every community (since Starbucks isn't in every community, all appearances to the contrary aside).

3)There are communities that don't even have a WalMart and the local Piggly Wigley is what people drive to when they "go to town".

There really are places where you can't do what's being assumed as easily done. I travel to various locations for work where I actually find these "normal" services don't yet exist outside of the best hotel in the area. Rural, remote, or poor communities don't always have these. Heck, my SIL thought she was in the lap of luxury when she switched to dialup to a cell phone hotspot and her husband who was the produce manager for the local Piggly Wiggly was second only to the GM at the store for prestige positions outside the minister and the local public health nurse (his wife). Even well off individuals have to resort to satellite internet connections in a surprising number of places (and that ain't cheap). A good friend of mine is in that position. OTOH, any local LE could allow this for anyone with the skill and knowledge to do it, but they're not going to be able to afford a kiosk for public access nor are they going to let a citizen walk in and use one of their computers if the local library doesn't have it. Paper forms are going to be needed and checks or cash are going to have to be taken to serve those people and communities that literally don't have the means to use a paperless system.

ilbob
December 22, 2013, 01:07 PM
Kwong v Bloomberg

http://ramblingsonappeal.blogspot.com/2013/07/unpacking-kwong-v-bloomberg-how.html
the court did not decide in that case that it was unconstitutional to charge more for a license than it costs to administer the license.

there are a lot of business and other licenses (think license plates for your car) that are primarily revenue oriented.

Mike1234567
December 22, 2013, 02:35 PM
1) That's not a valid assumption. "everywhere" is actually out of reach for some in any practical sense.

2) That's not always the case either. A $250 revolver + the $400 price of a low end computer is about three times what some working poor can afford. You're also suggesting that a citizen should have to pay hundreds of additional dollars on top of the burdensome fee to avail themselves of a carry permit. WiFi might nearly be ubiquitous, but it isn't quite in every community (since Starbucks isn't in every community, all appearances to the contrary aside).

3)There are communities that don't even have a WalMart and the local Piggly Wigley is what people drive to when they "go to town".

There really are places where you can't do what's being assumed as easily done. I travel to various locations for work where I actually find these "normal" services don't yet exist outside of the best hotel in the area. Rural, remote, or poor communities don't always have these. Heck, my SIL thought she was in the lap of luxury when she switched to dialup to a cell phone hotspot and her husband who was the produce manager for the local Piggly Wiggly was second only to the GM at the store for prestige positions outside the minister and the local public health nurse (his wife). Even well off individuals have to resort to satellite internet connections in a surprising number of places (and that ain't cheap). A good friend of mine is in that position. OTOH, any local LE could allow this for anyone with the skill and knowledge to do it, but they're not going to be able to afford a kiosk for public access nor are they going to let a citizen walk in and use one of their computers if the local library doesn't have it. Paper forms are going to be needed and checks or cash are going to have to be taken to serve those people and communities that literally don't have the means to use a paperless system.

1. bingo

2. bingo

3. and BINGO!!

I live 25 miles round trip from the nearest WM or any other store... 35 miles round trip from most other stores. A few folks here in my rural area have no transportation and are very poor. Should they be "effectively" denied to right to SD? That stated, people here are far less isolated than many others. Internet connectivity is pricey here (for many to afford). I paid $500+ just for the privilege of paying another $55 per month (internet only)... and I have an ugly 50 foot mast above my home to prove it. There is no cable here.

Assumptions are the product of ignorance and closed-mindedness.

Onward Allusion
December 22, 2013, 03:33 PM
Heh, ya know, I have no idea why the people on the South Side of Chicago and other low income folks don't go nuts over this kind of garbage. Sure, Internet can be accessed at your local library, but an individual needs to come up with about $500 and a NON "Saturday Night Special" to be able to defend themselves outside of their home 'cause IL has "low melting point" laws.

Yes, it is about $700 to CC in IL. $150 for the resident license, $200 to $250 for the 2 day training, another $100 for ammo (200 rounds for class - yes, this is what most classes require), and finally $200 for a Hi Point or above (if you're lucky). Makes a person wonder why no activists for the poor and downtrodden are voicing any concern.

$700 isn't a lot of money, right? I mean a decent pistol is what? Only $500 to $1000? A decent dinner is what - $200-$300? However, look at it from the perspective of someone making $30K a year and trying to make rent every month. Or the college kid trying to go to school and pay the rent by working the late shift at some place or another. How about the retired person on a fixed income? Heh, anyone here who argues that IL has a good CC law need to get their facts straight - even if it is just from a financial perspective. :mad:

Trent
December 22, 2013, 03:48 PM
Couldn't agree more, Onward.

I'm blessed with a healthy income but even so, the money I pay for all of this stuff comes out of the same pool of money I could spend on my kids for clothes, or activities to make their lives better.

How many children will go without so their parents can get the "right" to protect them?

Do you see a single working mother of two, being able to afford this? She's already working two jobs to be able to make ends meet. If she "splurges" to gain the right to defend herself her kids will be going without clothes, or the car without repairs, or the landlord without rent...

Median *family* income in my home town, down state, is right at $33,500, for a family of 4 (according to US census bureau).

Try to budget a license and gun and training and ammo in to that. And still feed your kids.

Carrying a gun shouldn't be a privilege reserved for the wealthy, or the well-off, or the stag bachelor making 50k a year on some skilled labor job.

It needs to take in to account single mothers. Old folks on social security. And so on.

Hell, most of our local restaurants have senior discounts. Our gun club has senior discounts (membership is $10 a year instead of $80). And so on, and so forth. Those people have contributed and worked their entire lives to our society and we should take care of them when they get to an age they can't haul lumber out of a forest, or weld metal together 12 hours a day, or work in the fields from sunrise to sunset.

And don't even get me started on the gun free zones. Because then I'll get real angry.

Mike1234567
December 22, 2013, 04:04 PM
Heh, ya know, I have no idea why the people on the South Side of Chicago and other low income folks don't go nuts over this kind of garbage. Sure, Internet can be accessed at your local library, but an individual needs to come up with about $500 and a NON "Saturday Night Special" to be able to defend themselves outside of their home 'cause IL has "low melting point" laws.

Yes, it is about $700 to CC in IL. $150 for the resident license, $200 to $250 for the 2 day training, another $100 for ammo (200 rounds for class - yes, this is what most classes require), and finally $200 for a Hi Point or above (if you're lucky). Makes a person wonder why no activists for the poor and downtrodden are voicing any concern.

$700 isn't a lot of money, right? I mean a decent pistol is what? Only $500 to $1000? A decent dinner is what - $200-$300? However, look at it from the perspective of someone making $30K a year and trying to make rent every month. Or the college kid trying to go to school and pay the rent by working the late shift at some place or another. How about the retired person on a fixed income? Heh, anyone here who argues that IL has a good CC law need to get their facts straight - even if it is just from a financial perspective. :mad:
Think that's challenging? I worked for Uncle Sam for nearly a quarter century and had to medically retire less than two years bore my "minimum". So now I live on $22K per year. I ended as a GS-9. Thank God I eliminated my debts, though I had to decimate my 401K to do it, before I could no longer work.

wildbilll
December 22, 2013, 08:23 PM
the court did not decide in that case that it was unconstitutional to charge more for a license than it costs to administer the license.

there are a lot of business and other licenses (think license plates for your car) that are primarily revenue oriented.
License plates for your car are not something that is mentioned in the Bill of Rights.

JTHunter
December 23, 2013, 12:22 AM
To those of you who have suggeste using a public library's computers, they are free ONLY to those that live inside the city limits and pay property taxes in that municipality.

There MAY be some "county" level libraries but I don't know of any in the area just east of St. Louis, MO.

C0untZer0
December 23, 2013, 09:41 AM
the court did not decide in that case that it was unconstitutional to charge more for a license than it costs to administer the license.

The problem with tying a permit or license fee to actual costs is that government is notoriously inefficient, wasteful and expensive. Anti-gun politicians could (for example) create a website for gun owners to digitally register their firearms that ends up costing $600 million to create.

After they pass those costs on to gun owners, all they would have to do to win a lawsuit challenging it would be to show their receipts, if the case were evaluated based on "rational basis".

Does anyone know how much it costs the government to run an election?

Even with volunteers there are costs. but it gets passed on to ALL tax payers, whether they vote or not, as a general expense, in whatever means the governing body in question raises revenue. Charging a fee to voters was tired a long time ago. Then the U.S. ratified the 24th Amendment, and then the use of a poll tax was ended by a string of cases which cited violations to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

The analogy of permit fees to a poll tax is not a perfect analogy, but permit fees do create barriers to the exercise of an enumerated right.

Activist judges ignore the law and jerrymander their decision in order to shape society the way they think society should be shaped. But for judges who simply follow the law, they are going to have to admit someday that these permitting fees constitute a prior restraint.


.

ilbob
December 23, 2013, 10:40 AM
To those of you who have suggeste using a public library's computers, they are free ONLY to those that live inside the city limits and pay property taxes in that municipality.

There MAY be some "county" level libraries but I don't know of any in the area just east of St. Louis, MO.
It is a moot point. The ISP has agreed to come up with some kind of way to apply on paper that will become available this summer.

wildbilll
December 23, 2013, 01:37 PM
The problem with tying a permit or license fee to actual costs is that government is notoriously inefficient, wasteful and expensive. Anti-gun politicians could (for example) create a website for gun owners to digitally register their firearms that ends up costing $600 million to create.

After they pass those costs on to gun owners, all they would have to do to win a lawsuit challenging it would be to show their receipts, if the case were evaluated based on "rational basis".

Does anyone know how much it costs the government to run an election?

Even with volunteers there are costs. but it gets passed on to ALL tax payers, whether they vote or not, as a general expense, in whatever means the governing body in question raises revenue. Charging a fee to voters was tired a long time ago. Then the U.S. ratified the 24th Amendment, and then the use of a poll tax was ended by a string of cases which cited violations to the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

The analogy of permit fees to a poll tax is not a perfect analogy, but permit fees do create barriers to the exercise of an enumerated right.

Activist judges ignore the law and jerrymander their decision in order to shape society the way they think society should be shaped. But for judges who simply follow the law, they are going to have to admit someday that these permitting fees constitute a prior restraint.


.
In your example of a $600 million dollar website, all I can say is that, if the website was required to run the program, then it wouldn't be the same issue as overcharging for a permits because the money is being diverted to some other unrelated program.
The fee structure is a Christmas tree that all of the politically corrupt hung their ornaments on in order to get them to vote for it.
It is a burdensome requirement that goes far beyond what is needed to put a permit in someone's hand.

pendennis
December 25, 2013, 04:04 PM
In the past, laws have been written to accommodate the lowest common denominator in society. That is, folks who are illiterate (whether computer or plain book) have to be protected by those laws. Literacy is no requirement to vote, or otherwise maintain citizenship.

For the same reasons analog telephone lines are in existence, and will be in the immediate, if not intermediate, future, paper forms will still be a fact of life.

There are any number of states which have been sued in Federal courts for making things too difficult for some folks. And, I would imagine that some enterprising attorney (or ACLU-type) will pick up the ball and run with it.

tactikel
December 25, 2013, 11:07 PM
I work on the west side of Chicago and interact with people who: may be Medicaid recipients, some are unable to read English, many make minimum wage. These are the ones who work food service or in hospitals second shift, get off work at 11:30pm and take the bus home thru rough neighborhoods. If you tell them to: get the fee, find a computer and scanner, submit info, then wait and finally purchase a weapon, 95% will get up and leave.
If I told you you had to jump thru these hoops to: vote, to hold a political rally, to voice opinions, to obtain govt ID, there would be a riot.
This is an attempt to make it as difficult as possible to apply. I see classist overtones here, a Lawyer living in the Loop no problem, a Hispanic working man in Humbolt park, or a food service worker from Englewood, FORGETABOUTIT!

scout26
December 26, 2013, 12:23 AM
One could argue both TC and FL are more intrusive as both require fingerprinting while IL does not.

Oh, yes, they do. But will only accept electronic scans. Which cost $40-$60 on average so add that to the costs and your well into $600 for your CCW.

Now, change the word "Carry" to the word "Voting" and you'd hear an unending hue and cry from the left.


My father does not use a computer, has never used one, and isn't going to learn now. There needs to be a way for people without computers (forget the library argument) to fill out the form, make copies of the necessary documents, write a check and mail it in. LIKE WITH EVERY OTHER .GOV APPLICATION.

C0untZer0
December 26, 2013, 09:59 AM
Illinois doesn't require fingerprints, but if you don't submit prints there will be an additional delay in processing your application.

We're already talking about 90 days to get a CCL with no substantial penalties for not making that 60 day target. I don't think there are any deadlines for the time it takes to process an application that doesn't have fingerprints so that could be anything from an additional 30 -45 days to an additional 180 days - who knows.

wildbilll
December 26, 2013, 11:47 AM
Yes, it is "up to 90 days" with prints and "up to 120" days without prints.
The track record so far, based on the FOID delays, doesn't look good. There are no teeth in the law, just like with the FOID law, so they can delay and blame it on the overwhelming demand with a assurance that someday in the future they will catch up.
The flip side to this is that the application process is electronic, as opposed to the FOID. Add to that the fact that you must have a FOID to apply for the FCCL and this means that most of the background check work is done before you even apply.
I can't figure out what database they will check that they don't already check for the FOID. And they claim they run all FOID names every day against those databases.
It could be that the submission of prints slows down the process, since that means they must get a response from the operator of that database before they can proceed on the issuance of the FCCL.

C0untZer0
December 26, 2013, 04:54 PM
According to the statute it is 90 days with fingerprints and a possible additional 30 days for a manual background check if you don't submit fingerprints.

There are already thousands of application partially filled out that will be completed within minutes on Jan 5th. I think the ISP is going to have a deluge of applications to work through, and I think applications without fingerprints will probably go to the bottom of the pile - just my opinion.

By the time the ISP issues paper-based forms, there will already be a HUGE backlog of CCL application to work through, so for people who submit a paper form, not only will they have undergone a 7-month or so delay, they will then have the additional delay of going to the end of a very long line of people waiting for their CCL.

C0untZer0
December 26, 2013, 05:29 PM
http://www.kcchronicle.com/2013/12/23/despite-slow-start-concealed-carry-and-medicinal-marijuana-will-have-significant-effects/abkn54z/

I am very disappointed because according to the ISP spokesperson, the clock doesn't start on the application until Jan 5th - even for people like me who submitted their application on Dec 18th.

ilbob
December 26, 2013, 08:17 PM
According to the statute it is 90 days with fingerprints and a possible additional 30 days for a manual background check if you don't submit fingerprints.

There are already thousands of application partially filled out that will be completed within minutes on Jan 5th. I think the ISP is going to have a deluge of applications to work through, and I think applications without fingerprints will probably go to the bottom of the pile - just my opinion.

By the time the ISP issues paper-based forms, there will already be a HUGE backlog of CCL application to work through, so for people who submit a paper form, not only will they have undergone a 7-month or so delay, they will then have the additional delay of going to the end of a very long line of people waiting for their CCL.

If they have done their homework, and I think they have, most of the work involved will be physically creating the ID cards and going through a few things here and there by hand (such as manually verifying the picture submitted matches the DL and FOID card pictures. My guess is that it will take no more than on average five or ten man minutes per applicant.

Since they allegedly hired 40 people to work on this they could conceivably issue 1000 or more licenses a day once they got going on it. Even if they can only do 500 a day that is more than 10,000 a month.

I have no idea how many license applicants there will be. My guess is that it will not be anywhere near as wildly popular as some have envisioned. It is almost useless to people who regularly take public transportation and to a lot of others will amount to a license to leave something fairly valuable in one's car unattended.

I just wonder how many people will be willing to pay $300-500 for the opportunity to leave a loaded gun in your car while they at work.

HOOfan_1
December 26, 2013, 10:01 PM
Not sure using your credit card on a public computer is exactly wise....never know what kind of data miners or key loggers could be on those computers.

Mike1234567
December 26, 2013, 10:10 PM
Not sure using your credit card on a public computer is exactly wise....never know what kind of data miners or key loggers could be on those computers.
Nahh... the NSA will protect us from such invasion of privacy. :D

wildbilll
December 26, 2013, 11:13 PM
And, of course, one would take the approximate $55 USD fingerprint fee and divide it by 30 to decide if that extra money is worth having a permit perhaps 30 days sooner.

SeanSw
December 27, 2013, 12:58 AM
I for one will not be submitting fingerprints.

Not after...

Paying for the 16 hour course ($200), missing a day of work ($120), driving to the class ($30 in fuel), buying the required OWB holster ($40), 3 required magazines in my class ($105 for all), ammo ($20), and the $150 (non-refundable) application fee, purchasing a FOID ($10), and changing the address on my FOID ($5) There is also no convenient livescan location near me, so add whatever transportation and fingerprint fees are required on top of that for the fast track application. We are also not continuing our lease this summer and that is ANOTHER $75 address change for my ccw permit.

As it stands that is already $680 invested (possibly $755) for the potential to obtain an IL ccw. Why can't they use the fingerprints I already paid for and sent through the FBI for my Utah non-resident ccw?

I know that it may not be the popular opinion here but I agree with a few others. Illinois should have run out the clock on this one. Now we're stuck negotiating within the same system and traversing the same political pitfalls that prohibited ccw to begin with. This is a significant expense for someone earning my salary. Many are worse off than I am. I won't even bother calculating the lifetime cost of an IL CCW as it stands. All the refresher courses, address change fees for FOID and CCW, transporation costs, and lost wages. What a crock.

Mike1234567
December 27, 2013, 10:36 AM
The fingerprint requirement is obtrusive and unnecessary. Why do they need it? Besides, tens of millions of us already have our fingerprints on national databases due to federal employment requirements.

C0untZer0
December 27, 2013, 10:38 AM
Running out the clock would have been similar to constitutional carry, although technically I guess it would have been "court" carry. It would have been a lot cheaper than what we have now - the cost of a FOID. But I'm not sure about the timetable. Hypothetically, if we had the votes to demand a better bill or run out the clock... it would have forced Lisa Madigan's hand to appeal to the Supreme Court which might have introduced another year delay in getting carry at all. I don't think anyone in the gun control movement wanted Moore to go to SCOTUS because they probably would have lost.

Sadly we didn't have the votes in Illinois to make this bill better.

If you remember Mike Madigan had his cadre of cronies introduce one amendment after another to see how they could successfully whittle down the original bill. Some of those restrictions -like libraries, passed. Eventually those restrictions were included in the replacement bill.

I don't think anyone has ever played the game of chicken with Mike Madigan and won. We didn't have enough pro-2A legislators with the guts to go up against him and run the clock out, take the state "over the cliff" and accept court carry until a better bill could be worked out.

ilbob
December 27, 2013, 03:03 PM
Sadly we didn't have the votes in Illinois to make this bill better.


But we may have had the votes to keep any bill at all from passing in the house.

That was always my preferred approach rather than the abomination we ended up with.

But, "our" side blinked when they faced off with Mike Madigan and we squandered our once in a lifetime opportunity.

It will likely take several decades to fix all the bad in this act.

Sadly, the first "fix" actually made it worse. That shows where we may be headed. We are up against some very savvy politicians and they are very good at getting what they want, and we have little experience at success in the firearms law arena in IL.

We have been able to reduce the level of damage done in the legislature, but little in the way of progress forward. I do not think that will change any. The courts are our only real hope. The NRA seems to feel that way too as the NRA lobbyist recently admitted that the NRA is looking into a number of cases and has committed significant financial resources to the legal fight in IL. If they thought there was even a prayer of winning in the legislature they would not be spending the money for lawyers.

wildbilll
December 27, 2013, 03:28 PM
I do remember shortly after the appeals court ruling the tone on our side was "we've go 'em over a barrel" And the strategy was they either give us what we want or we pass nothing, then it would be constitutional carry or court carry.
As we got closer to the deadline, we started hearing that court carry was not an option, that we did not want that.
We blinked.

ilbob
December 27, 2013, 03:37 PM
I do remember shortly after the appeals court ruling the tone on our side was "we've go 'em over a barrel" And the strategy was they either give us what we want or we pass nothing, then it would be constitutional carry or court carry.
As we got closer to the deadline, we started hearing that court carry was not an option, that we did not want that.
We blinked.
Some of that I think was the NRA's desperation to get any kind of LTC bill passed so they could claim 50 states have LTC. Madigan used that desperation against us.

I have to say that he is one impressive politician. He knows how to manipulate people to get what he wants. He apparently even had at least some on our side believing he was helping us, as laughable as that now seems.

RetiredUSNChief
December 27, 2013, 04:15 PM
Perhaps a future lawsuit (of the class action kind?) might be in order for all the expenses required just to obtain a permit to allow them to exercise their RKBA in the first place?

This is something that Il residents need to consider building a case for...and that takes both a law and system established and operating as well as time for people to build up plenty of good examples with which an attorney can build a good case for in the courts.

So don't give up yet...like it or not, this system is better than what used to be in place for decades.

C0untZer0
December 27, 2013, 06:08 PM
^ What you're talking about is Kwong v Bloomberg. Currently waiting for David Jensen to appeal to SCOTUS.

JTHunter
December 27, 2013, 11:03 PM
ilbob said:It is a moot point. The ISP has agreed to come up with some kind of way to apply on paper that will become available this summer.

And it is just another way for Illinois to stall implementation!

C0untZer0
December 28, 2013, 12:55 AM
It is a moot point. The ISP has agreed to come up with some kind of way to apply on paper that will become available this summer.

If they told the organizers of a GLBTQ demonstration that they'd have to wait 7 months longer than other groups to stage their demonstration - I bet it wouldn't fly.

If apartment owners switched their application processes over to online digital and said it would be a 7 month delay till they came up with the new paper process they'd lose on disparate impact.

A right deferred is a right denied.

The Second Amendment gets treated differently.

SeanSw
December 28, 2013, 03:32 AM
I think the reality has just dawned on me. The reason that the passage of the IL ccw law personally feels like a failure is because my attempts to further our 2nd amendment rights in this state amounted to nothing. I admit that my efforts are not as great as others. I have made my phone calls, written letters, marched on the capitol, and stood in the office of our representatives. I am an NRA member and as much as being a member of the "Gun Lobby" stereotypes me (unfairly as most gun enthusiasts understand) I have kept my membership to stand against the flood.

None of that mattered. It was simply a court order filtered through the same friggin' Illinois politics to give us an overpriced, pay to play, watered down, homage to civil rights that people living 30 minutes away from me don't have to spend an entire paycheck on to exercise with fewer restrictions. We are hanging in the wind. There is no precedent here. Not only are we footing the bill to be personally endorsed by Mike Madigan while carrying a firearm under heavy restrictions but we will be personally footing the bill to set the next court precedent for the entire state to follow if we are forced to exercise this right under duress. This is ruinous. Each and every one of us could become the next headline. Most of the state will be laughing at us over breakfast as we fight for our livelihood, families, property, and our dignity.

They bucked the responsibility for political expedience and laid it on the individual. Some say we ought to feel victorious in our "victory" but it is discouraging. I feel like I am begging for scraps at the table. I hoped for more. The law does nothing to protect me or my spouse in precisely the areas we frequent the most. We do not want to be an example.

Sorry for the rant. I know that this issue is bigger than I am. The entire thing just puts a lump in my throat. Victory feels like defeat. Nothing was won. We only have a decree. Perhaps in another 124 days I'll have a few crumbs to lift my spirits a little.

Onward Allusion
December 28, 2013, 02:22 PM
All y'all should have just waited it out and have court carry.

It's so damn funny that so many over there kept on saying "This is better than nothing or this is a first step". It's not better, because you guys bought into the crap the anti's sell - that a person needs massive training, a license, and enormous fees to exercise your fundamental rights. Sure, first step in the decades that it will take to undo this crap unless some form of national reciprocity comes about.

If a person has to -

- Get a license to vote [this is coming].

- Get a license to speak out against things they don't believe in [this will come right after everyone needs a license to own a firearm] Most towns already have requirements to get a permit to assemble. Think about this.

- Get a license to avoid getting searched at the airport [this is here].

A lot of people would be upset . . . Oh wait, we already have that stuff.

Have any of you looked at the live fire qualification portion of the training? 70% at 5, 7, & 10 yards. Sure, no issue for most of us on this board, but what if you're 60's/70's and shoot once or twice a year or not at all? With crappy eyes, do y'all really think most seniors will get 70% in the black at 7 or 10 yards? BTW, a qualifying shot is inside the 7 ring. I know that there are some of you out there who would have a challenge doing that at 10 yards.

Indiana's police depts generally qualify at 70% but with it being more of a mix . . .

3 yard shoot from the hip
5 yard strong hand, weak hand
7 yard strong hand ,weak hand
10 yard strong hand,weak hand
15 yard strong hand, weak hand
25 yard strong hand weak hand.

The gist in IL is if you do not have at least $500 in spare change AND a NON-Saturday Night Special (melting laws) AND can shoot half as good as a police officer, you can't defend yourself off your property. Completely dumb as a box of rocks and the idiots who pushed for this lost a major fight and are trying to spin it in their favor.

C0untZer0
December 28, 2013, 03:59 PM
I didn't like the bill and I wasn't jumping for joy, but the fact is we didn't have enough legislators who were willing to take the state "over the cliff" and get court carry.

Chicago is a textbook case of manipulating and concentrating a constituency. It's called the Curley Effect:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1891

You combine that with jerrymandering districts and the anti-gunners continue to have control of Illinois politics.

wriggly
January 16, 2014, 04:05 AM
I am not sure any of this makes any real difference. Most people who look closely at how many places are banned from carry, they are going to realize it is mostly a permit to carry in your car and leave it there, except for the places where you can't carry in your car. If they actually realize how limited it is, relatively few people will bother to get a FCCL.
Exactly this. I am waiting for a few more items with my fathers estate to be cleared up before moving, but I have already been looking at property in Arizona. Soon I will leave this sewer and never look back. I will keep all of you good people in my prayers that someday you will be able to really be free.

torqem
January 16, 2014, 07:19 AM
WAAAA, right? vote with your feet and your wallet. Let them choke on their "constituency" of parasites. If you stay there, not only are you condoning it, you are funding it, with your tax monies. What do you call somebody who aids and abets the enemy? You ertainly do not refer to them as being somebody who is helping, correct?

wtr100
January 16, 2014, 08:25 AM
Exactly this. I am waiting for a few more items with my fathers estate to be cleared up before moving, but I have already been looking at property in Arizona. Soon I will leave this sewer and never look back. I will keep all of you good people in my prayers that someday you will be able to really be free.
Are you joking? Unless you're living in Chicagistan

Unless posted you can carry in the

grocery store
hardware store
veteranarian
auto mechanic
clothing store
bank
barber
flower shop
jewery store
....

RussellC
January 16, 2014, 10:25 AM
If you cant use a computer to do this, you will end up being denied a whole lot more in life than a ccw permit...jobs, almost everything has an online component anymore. Get help using the computer. No credit card? get a debit-cash card. John Wayne said it best: "Times change, and a man has to change along with them." Also by the Duke: "Life is hard, its a lot harder if you are stupid." Myself, I like my mothers old saying: "Cant never could do anything"....PLEASE at least you can get one now! No, no one is going to come to your door and spoon feed you one, but now that the door is open, educate and empower yourself! Take advantage of what those fighting have brought to you! Lord help them signing up for Obama care....(just joking on this one) but really, computers are a way of life now...why throw hurdles in front of yourself?

Russellc

ilbob
January 16, 2014, 11:06 AM
Are you joking? Unless you're living in Chicagistan

Unless posted you can carry in the

grocery store
hardware store
veteranarian
auto mechanic
clothing store
bank
barber
flower shop
jewery store
....

How many of those places will be posted?

And how often do people go to those places?

Most people will not be allowed to carry at work.

Most recreational venues such as bars, sporting events, and amusement parks are banned so no carry there.

Anyone using public transit to get anywhere is out of luck. And that is a lot of people in urban areas where most people live.

While not illegal under the law, I would bet most banks will post. Besides, who goes to a bank any more? I have not been inside a bank except to sign some forms for the coin club in almost 20 years. Drive up, ATM, and automatic deposit.

The point is not that you could not find somewhere to carry, you can. But most people will find that a lot of places they go on a daily basis it will be banned and that makes it inconvenient for them as they are having to arm and disarm repeatedly. This arming and disarming sequence has some serious safety consequences that need to be thought through and not just dismissed by reciting the 3 rules.

Trent
January 16, 2014, 12:53 PM
The point is not that you could not find somewhere to carry, you can. But most people will find that a lot of places they go on a daily basis it will be banned and that makes it inconvenient for them as they are having to arm and disarm repeatedly. This arming and disarming sequence has some serious safety consequences that need to be thought through and not just dismissed by reciting the 3 rules.

I agree completely. Disarming / rearming is not a wonderful proposition in the confines of a car. All it takes is a flap of clothing, retention strap (for those who use them), or other obstruction to get in the wrong spot at the wrong time while re-holstering, as you contort around to try to get thing situated, for your day to take a really bad turn for the worse.

I can't count the number of times I've read stories about people accidentally shooting themselves while holstering/reholstering in the last few years, but there's plenty of examples out there of how quickly things go wrong when you have inexperienced people constantly fiddling around with their guns in cars.

ilbob
January 16, 2014, 02:37 PM
I agree completely. Disarming / rearming is not a wonderful proposition in the confines of a car. All it takes is a flap of clothing, retention strap (for those who use them), or other obstruction to get in the wrong spot at the wrong time while re-holstering, as you contort around to try to get thing situated, for your day to take a really bad turn for the worse.

I can't count the number of times I've read stories about people accidentally shooting themselves while holstering/reholstering in the last few years, but there's plenty of examples out there of how quickly things go wrong when you have inexperienced people constantly fiddling around with their guns in cars.
I wonder who the first instructor will be that is sued over this.

On a couple other forums there are some instructors who are leaving a trail of liability on the internet suggesting that arming and disarming repeatedly is perfectly safe.

coloradokevin
January 16, 2014, 02:40 PM
My response is that this is 2013. The internet has existed for about 20 years to the masses.
I am sure that someone who does not have internet at home will be able to find someone to help them.
The ISP does not want to deal with paper, hence the electronic submissions.
Look at it this way, the application won't get lost in the mail. It won't get lost on someone's desk. It won't have as many errors. It allows for you to go online and see what is taking so #*$&^ long for them to process the application.
My advice to those people is find a friend and go to the library. They have internet there.
And they are able to save the cost of the postage stamp.
I just got a notice from PA for a renewal there, they say you have to apply in person because the have to capture an electronic photo and signature. This is the wave of the future.

My thoughts exactly. I first remember my family getting Internet access back in 1991 or so (with the original AOL, though I think we had it beforehand in a less refined form), and we certainly weren't rich or privileged. The argument that the Internet isn't available today hardly even works for the "economically challenged". I work deep in the 'hood, and everyone there seems to either have access via a computer or a cellphone. Even barring all of that, public libraries have access, and many folks could grab access from a friend or employer for a few minutes (though the later isn't always a viable option, depending on your place of employment).

My 92-year-old grandmother has been regularly e-mailing family members for the past five years, while my now-deceased grandfather was doing it back in the mid-90's. My surviving 90-year-old grandfather on the other side of the family has been doing so for at least 10 years (and trust me when I suggest that he's just about as poor, backwards, and detached from modern society as you'll find).

For me, I'm more concerned with the costs of CCW permits than I am with the fact that someone has to apply online to get one. Internet access is available for people, and I'd even be a bit surprised if some of the locations where permit applications are processed don't add a terminal for such purposes.


PLUS: I can guarantee that not one person on this forum will be unable to get their CCW permit in IL as a result of the electronic application process. Just sayin'.

ilbob
January 16, 2014, 02:53 PM
You need to understand that some of the outrage is just posturing. just like when the trailer bill came out some folks made out like it was some great improvement because it exempted a few former cops from the training that were fired during their probationary period, while ignoring the parts that were made arguably worse.

When you are out begging for money on a regular basis you have to make it look like you are doing something for the money you are asking for.

If you enjoyed reading about "IL - 1000s Won't be Able to Apply For Concealed Carry License" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!