What about the .380?


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viking499
December 12, 2013, 10:52 PM
How is it as far as a SD round? How much power/stopping force does it have? What does it "compare to" power wise?

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skoro
December 12, 2013, 11:19 PM
It has a little less power than a 38spl, but enough to be an effective SD round.

C0untZer0
December 12, 2013, 11:49 PM
There are 3 pages of information on the 380 AUTO right here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=736613

JERRY
December 12, 2013, 11:59 PM
less than a .38, more than a .32.

LightningMan
December 13, 2013, 12:20 AM
From what I've read, its a better round today than say 10-20 years ago, mostly due to better ammunition these days spurred on by the increase of states allowing conceal carry permits. With people wanting something small & pocketable, the manufacturers have stepped up with better designed .380 pistols, which allows most average person to simply slip it into a pocket without worry of getting noticed. IMO the .380 is a feasible self defence round. My 2 cents, LM.

HammsBeer
December 13, 2013, 12:41 AM
It's a useful caliber, provided you can hit something vital with it. I carry a .380 knowing full well that a gut shot probably won't stop a determined attacker.

herrwalther
December 13, 2013, 04:03 AM
.380 is much better now than it was 10 years ago with better ballistics made into the rounds. However the shortcomings of the round are something to be aware of. Most .380s are blowback design and as such have a little bit more recoil than a 9mm of the same size. Many companies are making 9mm handguns that are the same size or slightly larger than .380 counterparts with little to no loss in capacity. But as always, the .380 is a good round when used effectively with good ammo selection, shot placement etc. More power than a .22 and less than a .40.

snooperman
December 13, 2013, 12:03 PM
The 380 ACP is an adequate cartridge for a CCW, with proper shot placement and good quality ammo. Of course that could be said of many other calibers as well. For pocket carry , the light weight locked breech guns like KelTec P3at, Ruger LCP, Taurus TCP, etc are hard to beat and seem to out-sell many others.These types of modern locked breech- lightweight guns have given new life to the 380 ACP in pocket carry guns.

kokapelli
December 13, 2013, 12:11 PM
.380 is much better now than it was 10 years ago with better ballistics made into the rounds. However the shortcomings of the round are something to be aware of. Most .380s are blowback design and as such have a little bit more recoil than a 9mm of the same size. Many companies are making 9mm handguns that are the same size or slightly larger than .380 counterparts with little to no loss in capacity. But as always, the .380 is a good round when used effectively with good ammo selection, shot placement etc. More power than a .22 and less than a .40.
Most 380 pocket pistols are NOT blowback, they are mostly locked breach actions that significantly reduces felt recoil.

The KelTec P3AT, S&W Bodyguard, Sig P238, Ruger LCP, Ruger LC 380, Taurus TCP, Diamondback 380 and some I can't think of right now are all locked Breach actions.

decoy562
December 13, 2013, 01:40 PM
Definitely below a .38 but I consider it the bare minimum for SD. My LCP is very easy to carry in the pocket and no one knows.

MedWheeler
December 13, 2013, 02:26 PM
It's a considerable defensive round, especially due to the efforts of ammo makers to capitalize on the growing armed-citizen trend. It can be a handful in the pocket-pistols (Ruger LCP, Taurus TCP, Kel-Tec P3-AT, etc.), but it will be there when your .45 cannot be. Do your part to learn it, and you will be suitably armed for situations represented by more than 99 percent of random attacks on the law-abiding.

I trust it even more in a platform that is easier to shoot, offers a somewhat longer barrel (and sight radius), and a higher capacity. Such platforms include guns like the Bersa Thunder series, the new Ruger LC380, and the Beretta M85. But, there are many guns that size (and a few even smaller) that are chambered in 9x19mm, a round that is not only more potent, but more affordable and readily available.

Mike1234567
December 13, 2013, 02:59 PM
With the right ammo at close range it's fine, IMHO. I personally don't opt for .380 ACP in favor of 9mm Luger or .45 ACP but that's just me.

shootingthebreeze
December 13, 2013, 06:40 PM
The .380 has been maligned many times but I do love my Kahr .380.
I also love my Kahr .45; very carry friendly but heavy. It's a .45! However, my Kahr .380 is very stealthy when I carry it and that's why I love it.
Now seeing it is my favorite carry weapon during the summer I practice firing it at the range a LOT. Precise shot groupings and tight patterns have been goals I worked towards last summer. It took a lot of work. But the results have increased my confidence with the .380 and because of this my increased skills can deliver precise shooting if ever needed (hopefully never!).

Hokkmike
December 13, 2013, 08:18 PM
Good enough for Bond, James Bond. Seriously - that's it; it is just good enough.

jon_in_wv
December 13, 2013, 08:26 PM
Most .380s are blowback design and as such have a little bit more recoil than a 9mm of the same size.

I have to take exception with this statement. I have only owned two blowback pistols, a Makarov and a Bersa 380. The Makarov in 9x18 does have recoil compareable to a 9mm but the Bersa was one of the lightest recoiling pistols I've ever had. Also, almost all the current crop of defensive 380s are delayed blowback pistols like their larger cousins. Try shooting a 9mm the same size as an LCP/BG380/etc.......and you will find they kick quite a bit more than the 380s. I've never shot a 380 that kicked MORE than a comparable 9mm. That just isn't true.

AABEN
December 13, 2013, 09:18 PM
It is better than a 25.

SDGlock23
December 13, 2013, 09:27 PM
It's lethal, but so is a .22. I've carried a 380 before and I know the 380 has accounted for many deaths, so with good placement it would work. Don't expect anything spectacular, but it will get the job done. The best thing about 380's is the size of the gun, very small and easy to conceal. But there are small 9's and .40's too, and with standard pressure ammo, a small 9mm like the Kahr PM9/CM9 doesn't recoil much more than a 380 but packs a bigger punch.

Byrd666
December 13, 2013, 09:54 PM
I'm willing to use a .380, a CZ 83, as a daily carry piece. In rotation with my M&P 9c. I feel quite comfortable with this round as a self defense round. And living in a very thin walled domicile, I feel more comfortable knowing there won't be much, if any, over penetration. Assuming my shots are on target. And if my shots are on target, unless the perp. is loaded up on PCP or something, they ought to do a good job of stopping them.

If you are looking for exact tables on .380 ammo., look up "the box o' truth" on google or youtube. Good info. there. My past experience with a .380 is that it feels like a very softly loaded .38 spcl. in recoil, and twice the "snap" of a 9mm in muzzle rise. But as quick, or quicker to get back on target. And definitely not for a person that is recoil sensitive or has any wrist problems. Something like "carpal tunnel", and it's a one shot only deal.

M2 Carbine
December 13, 2013, 09:55 PM
I pocket carry a laser equipped Ruger LCP .380 a lot, simply because it's easy to carry.

I suspect if I ever have to use the gun in a defense situation, the first thing that goes through my mind will be,
I wish I had something bigger than this .380.

Realistically, I don't think a shot or two from a short barrel .380 will be much of a instant fight stopper. That's why I use a laser (on all my defense guns), to give me every chance of emptying most of the magazine rapid fire into COM.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/LCPCrimsonTrace7yards.jpg (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Bell-helicopter-407/media/LCPCrimsonTrace7yards.jpg.html)

Hanshi
December 14, 2013, 01:16 AM
I'm a .380 fan and usually carry my PPK/S when I do carry. Accuracy is excellent even considering the minimal sights. Of course ranges will be very short so aiming is not especially important.

bikerdoc
December 14, 2013, 01:28 PM
I have to be out and about today and the 45 is on my hip and the 380 is my jacket pocket.

Dean1818
December 15, 2013, 08:27 AM
Maybe .... As a backup to a bigger caliber

huey148
December 15, 2013, 09:19 AM
Biggest advantage to the. 380 is that it can be jammed into very small guns relative to it's caliber. In some countries it is the largest round civilians can own. On its own it is a adequate round and you will read over and over that it's the bare minimum for a defensive round... But that's just us Americans.... Go big or go home... .45 or busy and all of that. Most of the world had Been satisfied with round in The .32 - 9mm range as defensive calibers for ever.

If you are looking for a very small package as a deep cover, minimal coverage/clothing or backup carry it makes a good caliber to consider. As for me the only time the LCP rides solo on my body is when it's 100 degrees and high humidity and shorts and a T-shirt or tank top is all I have on for a quick run to the grocery store.

76shuvlinoff
December 15, 2013, 09:26 AM
What convinced me to carry my LCP more was not necessarily the ballistics but the in-a-hurry groupings I get with it.....even with the virtually non existent sights.

giggitygiggity
December 15, 2013, 11:38 AM
Good enough for Bond, James Bond. Seriously - that's it; it is just good enough.

Actually, James Bond used a .32 PPK. I know shot placement is more important than the round, but no real spy would use such a weak round.

I like the .380 for concealed carry. I have a couple LCPs (one with and one without Crimson Trace). I also have a Bersa .380. I like .45ACP most, but when it comes down to it, I find myself carrying one of my LCPs simply because it is so small and light (about the size of a cell phone). I am super wary about have to shoot through glass or any sort of cover with a .380, but the gun that you carry is more effective than the gun that is too big and that you left at home.

David E
December 15, 2013, 12:09 PM
Most of the world had Been satisfied with round in The .32 - 9mm range...in some countries, it is the largest round civilians can own


If other countries have the .380 as the "maximum caliber" that is allowed, then how do we know they're satisfied with it? Its the biggest they can get!. If 9x19mm/.40/.45 were allowed, I'm sure the .380 would drop in popularity.

In the Bond books, his PPK was indeed a .32 acp. But in Skyfall, Bond's PPK was chambered in "9mm Short," which is .380.

SeanSw
December 15, 2013, 12:37 PM
I have only seen two Bond films. The first and the last. Early in the first movie he is forcibly given a .380 as an upgrade from his .32, which he was comfortable with but deemed not lethal enough by his superior. Skyfall had a scene clearly stating his pistol was a 9mm short.

Is .380 more commonly known as the 9mm short outside of the USA?

kokapelli
December 15, 2013, 01:00 PM
Actually, James Bond used a .32 PPK. I know shot placement is more important than the round, but no real spy would use such a weak round.

It might be interesting to note that some of the assassinations carried out by the Massad were supposedly done with Berretta 22cal pistols

Phantom Captain
December 15, 2013, 03:09 PM
I have only seen two Bond films. The first and the last. Early in the first movie he is forcibly given a .380 as an upgrade from his .32, which he was comfortable with but deemed not lethal enough by his superior. Skyfall had a scene clearly stating his pistol was a 9mm short.

Is .380 more commonly known as the 9mm short outside of the USA?

You are almost correct. In the first movie (and book if I recall correctly) Bond is given a PPK in .32 (7.65mm as they call it) as an upgrade to his Beretta .25. The .25 either misfired or failed to take down his target on a previous mission and M and Q deem it unfeasible. It's in this scene that Q utters the famous quote, "It has a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" as he talks about the .32.

Second, in Skyfall Bond again starts the movie his .32 PPK, runs out of bullets (first time ever in a Bond movie and why I love the new iterations so much!!) and tosses it. Later in the movie the new Q gives him a Walther PPK/s. Listen closely as he does say PPK/s in 9mm short. And yes in Europe the .380 is known as 9mm short or 9mm kurz as it's called in German. My European Walther in .380 had "9mm kurz" on the slide and NOT .380. Incidentally my PPK and PP in .32 both say 7.65mm on the slide as the round is also known as in Europe.

FM12
December 15, 2013, 05:38 PM
Bettr than a rock or pointed stick.

1John1:9
December 15, 2013, 08:08 PM
I carry either a 9mm Walther P99 or a Beretta PX4 .45acp.

My back up gun is either a LCR in .38 special or a Sig P232 .380acp.

I know full well that the Sig P232 is much below other choices in ballistics. I'm sure it is the most likely to malfunction of all my guns.

I just really like the gun. It feels SO GOOD to shoot it. Thus, I carry it as a back up.

cdb1
December 15, 2013, 08:18 PM
I carry either a Bersa or a CZ 83. My next purchase will be a Sig P232. So I guess you know I feel.

kvtcomdo
December 15, 2013, 08:19 PM
I'm old.

Never been a fan.

38 Special +P, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45ACP, 357, 44 Special all OK in handguns.

I will say this; Better to have the 380 than nothing @ all.

I wouldn't want to be shot with it.

HexHead
December 15, 2013, 08:27 PM
There's not a whole lot of difference in terminal ballistics between .32 and .380. Throughout history, lots and lots of people have been killed by .32 caliber.

HexHead
December 15, 2013, 08:28 PM
You are almost correct. In the first movie (and book if I recall correctly) Bond is given a PPK in .32 (7.65mm as they call it) as an upgrade to his Beretta .25. The .25 either misfired or failed to take down his target on a previous mission and M and Q deem it unfeasible. It's in this scene that Q utters the famous quote, "It has a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window" as he talks about the .32.



Exactly.

SeanSw
December 15, 2013, 09:59 PM
Thank you for the correction, I knew I was stepping outside of my bounds!

Everyone is an expert on the internet but I did think I had remembered that properly :)

g_one
December 15, 2013, 10:26 PM
The 'shot placement is key' argument really shines with the .380; in an all steel double stack you can still have a fairly small package that shoots smooth and recoils like a kitten. I prefer 9mm but I never felt undergunned with my LCP

shootingthebreeze
December 16, 2013, 10:13 AM
Actually, giggi, the Mossad has used the .22 as an assassination weapon very effectively and the Mossad is I think the premier intelligence agency in the world.
As far as spies, weapon carry is really not their thing unless they are involved in a branch involving tactical missions.

sirgilligan
December 16, 2013, 10:46 AM
The Military Arms Channel did some ballistics testing on the .380.

http://youtu.be/soNdX36P-3E

I find my Walther PPK/S to be exceptionally accurate and I credit that to the trigger pull and the sights which are "fine".

Here is a range report from the first time out shooting the PPK/S.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aBxfyx5_y4Y/Uq8Rau_SHjI/AAAAAAAADz0/YbAYeUFiEmA/s1600/ppks.png

msrfrog
January 12, 2014, 02:40 PM
Ask some one who has been shot and see what they say. Most SD situations will end when the weapon is drawn and the perp turns and runs. They prey on the weak. If in the case the trigger must be used I would feel my bersa .380 with SD loads would stop all but the most insane lunatic.

Mike1234567
January 12, 2014, 02:59 PM
IMHO (for HD)... and with "proper ammo"...

.380 ACP is "often" enough.
9mm Luger is "nearly always" enough.
12ga is "always" enough.

Of course, the latter is moot for personal carry.

HammsBeer
January 12, 2014, 08:33 PM
The .380 is for when something bigger is to impractical or cumbersome to carry. Many fine small handguns are chambered in .380 and easy to shoot, and any reasonably effective gun with you is better than none. A pocket .380 means you have no more excuses to be unarmed.

Even Texas gov Perry was out for a walk and used an LCP against a coyote that was eyeing up his dog as dinner.

C0untZer0
January 12, 2014, 09:32 PM
^ And he used "deadly" hollow point ammunition

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/elected-president-rick-perry-could-still-jog-gun-190824495.html

HexHead
January 12, 2014, 11:45 PM
I've never shot a 380 that kicked MORE than a comparable 9mm. That just isn't true.

Shoot a Sig 232 sometime.

gym
January 13, 2014, 12:52 PM
Carry ball ammo, I did for 20 years I carried a ppk's, at least you know it's going to penetrate 3 or 4 layers of clothing and still do some damage. If you live up north where people wear heavy leather jackets ,sweaters, shirts and undershirts, the hollow point may not work properly, "open too soon" or not at all. the ball ammo will get through.
Down south it's easier to penetrate a tee shirt or a light jacket. Unless you can hit head shots under pressure, or while being swung at with a bat,knife or pipe, while running, I wouldn't count on it,. It's not like shooting at something that is standing still.

Fiv3r
January 13, 2014, 02:43 PM
I carry an LCP when I can't carry anything larger. Generally in the summer, my work attire requires the smallest pistol that prints the least. From May-July, I get by carrying nothing more than an LCP in my pocket and a Glock in my truck.

It's not my favorite, but I feel better carrying it rather than nothing at all. I also shoot it pretty well at altercation ranges.

TarDevil
January 13, 2014, 03:05 PM
It's your life. Carry whatever you want.

tuj
January 13, 2014, 03:13 PM
fact of the matter is, no matter what you carry, no matter how good the ammo, one-shot-stops are rare. Jim Crillio was in quite a number of real life gun fights and the only 1-shot stops he saw were a 12ga and a 30-30 carbine. shot placement, good ammo, and follow-up shots are the way to go, no matter what you are packing.

xXxplosive
January 13, 2014, 03:23 PM
Funny here how so many say the .380 is an adequate defense cartridge with no practical experience at all. Cirillo said, IHO, the 9mm was the bear minimum and describes in his books why he feels that way. Here was a man who not only attended many autopsyies, but studied the effects of each caliber on BG's and the shoot outs he and his men were actually involved in. For me, I'd rather listen to the voice of experience and not the voice of opinion.
It's why the .45acp is my chosen caliber to train with.

horsemen61
January 13, 2014, 03:34 PM
Well I carry a sig p238 and loaded with critical defense 95 grain jhp I feel it's adequate

Life During Wartime
January 13, 2014, 04:19 PM
There's people that say it should not be used as an SD round,
There's some that say its the minium

as for me, I want to carry a .22 for SD/CCW to be honest so a 380 is more than adequate

C0untZer0
January 13, 2014, 04:40 PM
And once again the much maligned 380 AUTO proves to be deadly...

Two people shot at Grove 16 theater in Wesley Chapel; one victim dies of gunshot wound

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/state/cobb-theaters-grove-16-shooting-reported-in-wesley-chapel#ixzz2qJOMv4Lb

kokapelli
January 13, 2014, 05:05 PM
Funny here how so many say the .380 is an adequate defense cartridge with no practical experience at all. Cirillo said, IHO, the 9mm was the bear minimum and describes in his books why he feels that way. Here was a man who not only attended many autopsyies, but studied the effects of each caliber on BG's and the shoot outs he and his men were actually involved in. For me, I'd rather listen to the voice of experience and not the voice of opinion.
It's why the .45acp is my chosen caliber to train with.
There was a documentary tv series awhile back where a camera crew followed the Indianapolis Homicide team around and documented the circumstances, details and outcomes of a bunch of killings in Indianapolis.

The Indianapolis Homicide investigation team has the highest rate of solved homicides of any big city police force and what I found interesting is that in most of the cases they showed the guns used and even the bullets when they were recovered.

Anyway I very surprised to see that there were a couple of homicides where the weapon was a 380 and in one the victim was shot in the chest and died on the spot, so please don't tell me that a 380 isn't adequate and can't get the job done.

By the way, in another case the victim was shot with a 45 and was able to walk to his car and drive away, but later died.

Shot placement and a round that will reach the vitals, not caliber is what counts.

Personally there is no way I'm going to haul a big hunk of iron around all day and or dress for the pistol I carry, but to each his own.:D

gym
January 13, 2014, 05:35 PM
It s impossible to make a definitive statement on which caliber is best. I have read more than most on the subject in the 44 yrs. I have carried a gun, and there is always an argument to support whichever round is being discussed.
In general I go with the largest hole theory, as long as it meets the penetration requirements set forth by the powers that be. I like 45's, but 9mm is an easier multiple follow up round as I get older. At least in a lightweight carry gun. I was just watching a series of instructional videos by Jerry Micelick, who carries either a J frame in 357 or 38. So everyone, even professionals are going to disagree. He believes a gun given the choice a carry gun should be concealed, and pocket carried, as do I. I can have my hand on my PM-9 if there is something brewing, which gives me a huge edge if I have to use it.
It's funny but someone just rang my bell while I was typing, 2 guys in their 20's who wanted me to take a survey. They had on tee shirts and looked grubby, I had my hand on my gun, as one wanted to shake my hand. Who knows who they were but they weren't getting any further than where they were. It definitely gives you an edge to be able to have a hand on your weapon no matter what it is.

torqem
January 13, 2014, 05:45 PM
Quite a few times, in fact. Both with slugs and buckshot, and yes I do mean with solid, full pattern hits (or slugs) to the chest. Usually on those who were very doped up, but not always. It's been documented. As hard as it is to believe, it's the truth. So many men were shot in WWII,with 06, 8mm and Japanse rds, that there's quite a few cases on record of solid chest hits failing with them, too. See, the brain always has 5 second's worth of oxygenated blood in the cranium. Double carotid chokes prove that. A man can do a lot of damage in 5 seconds. A hit to only one lung, regardless of how much of that lung is destroyed, often does not stop the heart, for many more seconds, too.

That having been said, if you actually have to hit somebody with a bullet, a 380 is a very weak reed, and you are leaning on it very hard.

ETXhiker
January 13, 2014, 06:22 PM
I was just watching a series of instructional videos by Jerry Micelick, who carries either a J frame in 357 or 38.

Yeah, but with a J frame and 2 speed loaders, Jerry Miculek could put more holes in a bad guy in 5 seconds than I could with my Glock 19 :neener:

xXxplosive
January 13, 2014, 08:43 PM
Right.........look who he's comparing the Average Joe with.....JM.
Don't loose sight, that the objective is to stop the attack now....not 3 minutes from now. Sure a .22 or .380 can kill if placed properly....but in that time one may have returned fire or continued stabbing before those smaller rounds take effect. I'll stay with the bigger hole theory also and hopefully end it quickly.

gym
January 13, 2014, 11:26 PM
He has fired over a million and a half rounds. Fired 27 in 3.4 seconds in a 45 race gun. But I agree with the large hole theory, for as you mentioned you may be fighting people off you with knives or guns, and you want that first shot that you hopefully get off, to do maximum damage, just in case that's all you get. He admitted to having "other weapons " he uses at home, but refused to say what hey were. I would guess a shotgun, having seen him do tricks with one. Really incredible that he can perform as well as he does at his age. I guess arthritis isn't a problem, or vision for that matter.
Kind of makes you wonder how things affect all of us differently.

Cooldill
January 14, 2014, 12:36 AM
You can get bullet weights over 50% more in 9mm with near 200% muzzle energy with +P ammo versus the .380 in modern concealed carry guns of near identical size and weight and magazine capacity.

Now that doesn't automatically rule out a .380 for SD, it tends to have less recoil than 9mm in pocket sized guns which could mean the difference in making the shot and well... not.

Those things considered, with the proper cartridge and with good bullet placement a .380 pocket pistol will do the job, but that's about as low on the totem poll of power that I want to go. As others have said it is a better round today than it used to be thanks to advances in technology. IMHO 9mm is the perfect round for pocket gun CCW applications, it just strikes a balance of power and controlability that most other defensive handgun cartridges fail to do.

amd6547
January 14, 2014, 08:16 AM
While I own other, bigger and more powerful pistols, I recently bought an Israeli police surplus Beretta 84F 380.
This is a larger, 13-shot pistol of modern design, DA/SA.
I shot it yesterday for the first time, and I have to say, I'm impressed. Functioning was very smooth and accuracy excellent. Ergonomics just about perfect. Points like an extension of my arm.
I have done a lot of net research on ammo choices in 380, and I have come to the conclusion that it is a viable SD round, especially in a longer barreled pistol like my Beretta.

kokapelli
January 14, 2014, 09:10 AM
So yesterday we have this shooting in a Florida movie theater where a lady was wounded and her husband killed after being shot with a 380.

Only one round was fired and it went through the ladie's hand first and then into her husband who was killed.

Sounds pretty effective to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texting-triggers-fatal-movie-theater-shooting/t/story?id=21517988&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jongales.com%2Fdrudge%2F

jrdolall
January 14, 2014, 10:00 AM
I prefer a 45 but a 9mm works so well I carry a 380. Same is true of jeans but in reverse. I wear a 34 but a 36 feels so good I buy a 38.
45 is probably the best because of the bigger hole. If I carry Open then I will either have a 1911 or a full size 9mm. 9mm "pocket" guns like the PF-9 and DB9 give me the option of IWB, OWB or actual pocket carry.
The smallest 380s give me the ability to pocket carry without even noticing the gun is there. P3AT, LCP, Bodyguard, Kahr, etc are all small enough to be true pocket guns FOR ME! The small 9mm guns, while not a great deal larger, do tend to be heavier which makes all the difference as far as my comfort goes.

Potatohead
January 14, 2014, 01:38 PM
I wear a 34 but a 36 feels so good I buy a 38

That is to funny.
I sense you may not be joking though!

Potatohead
January 14, 2014, 01:40 PM
Actually, giggi, the Mossad has used the .22 as an assassination weapon very effectively and the Mossad is I think the premier intelligence agency in the world.
As far as spies, weapon carry is really not their thing unless they are involved in a branch involving tactical missions.
It's a little surprising to me that on all of these forensics shows I watch (the real ones), I see a good many that were killed with a 22.

481
January 14, 2014, 03:33 PM
The .380 is just fine as a 'minimum' caliber IMO. I just run FMJs to make sure I get the penetration I need to get and worry more about training to compensate for any other short-comings there might be.

Giterboosted
January 15, 2014, 10:51 AM
As said many times, and I'm no expert for everyone only myself and what I know I'm
Capable of, but I look at it this way, my sweetheart just turned 21 recently, and I feel that she is a good enough marksman (marks-woman?) that she will be adequately defended with her new sig p238, and I think to myself, if I feel comfortable with the love of my life carrying one, why would I have qualms against anyone else doing it? I actually carry my lc380 in a belly band when I go to the gym, mater of fact I'm wearing it now, feel perfectly safe, but then again I don't live in a huge city, the threat here is slightly less than the norm I suppose

Gary A
January 15, 2014, 11:13 AM
and I think to myself, if I feel comfortable with the love of my life carrying one, why would I have qualms against anyone else doing it?
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I have been making that same argument. The .380 may or may not be sufficient but I find it unfathomable how often I read posts from people who proclaim the .380 is too puny for them but are perfectly fine with their wives and mothers depending on it for protection. Wow! Talk about being second-class! I understand using the largest caliber you can handle but a round is either adequate or it is not. If it is not, why would I want to give my loved ones false confidence by allowing them to rely on it? If it is, then why all the chest thumping? Thank you once again!

gym
January 15, 2014, 03:46 PM
That always drove me nuts also Gary, if it's not going to get the job done for you, why give it to your wife? lol. Or mother or daughter, is it somehow going to work better for them? Or are they better shots? If you feel it's not powerful enough to get the job done, then you should take it away from your wife, as she is probably in most family's not the primary shooter. Get her a shotgun like a 20 gauge for home, and at least a 38+P for around town, if the 40 or 9mm is too snappy for the lady.

zeke4351
January 15, 2014, 05:18 PM
The man just shot and killed at the movie in Florida was shot one time and died on the spot with a .380. I don't know if it was FMJ or JHP but I will guess JHP since according to news reports the gun jammed after the first shot. It was reported the bullet passed through the wife's raised hand before hitting the victim in the chest. It is a shame this happened but it tells me the .380 is not as weak as a lot of people think it is.

snooperman
January 15, 2014, 06:03 PM
If it is so weak, why do most LEO carry the 380 when off duty? At least that is what I read in the conceal carry magazine. Also, the article said that there is no difference in one shot stops between 380, 9mm, 40 and 45ACP-71 % each. He looked at over 3000 shootings. The size of the hole is much less important than shot placement. This article appeared in U.S. conceal carry magazine last summer. It was written by an LEO who did the research and was an eye opener.

snooperman
January 15, 2014, 07:30 PM
On the lighter side, don't you know that in the U.S. that bigger is almost always equated with "better". Cars, trucks, houses, and yes even gun calibers. Never mind one Wild Bill Hickok killed several people with one shot with 36 caliber round ball revolvers , using WHAT? Black powder. Shall I continue.

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 09:50 PM
SNOOPERMAN ASKS: "If it is so weak, why do most LEO carry the 380 when off duty?" .................................. Well, first, most LE officers are not into guns. Secondly, they tend to follow trends within the LE community, and often cops look for a convenient way to be armed, but not be BOTHERED with or BY the gun. Current trends have provided smaller, lighter pistols, many in .380, and they have replaced the older, traditional snubnose revolvers, which WERE the trend for LEO's in the past. Usually, only the seriously gun-wise cops pack bigger guns, and many are restricted to their duty guns, or often have .380's as authorized backup guns, and use them for off duty guns out of convenience. What cops carry is not always an indicator of the best stuff available.

snooperman
January 15, 2014, 10:21 PM
It may be true that LEO are not "into guns" per se, but that in itself does not disqualify the 380 as an adequate CCW. More people are shot by non LEO using 380 pistols than 9mm, 40,and 45ACP. Why ? Because more people are armed with the 380 for CCW than the other calibers individually.The 380 is playing a role today in America not seen before.

snooperman
January 15, 2014, 10:30 PM
Also, when used as a CCW, the 380 has stopped more attacks with ONE SHOT, than 9mm, 40, and 45 cal pistols individually. Why, because studies show these people are more often armed "all the time", than those carrying larger guns and/ or larger calibers. I wish I could find the article as it must be in the U.S. conceal carry archives.

orionengnr
January 15, 2014, 10:50 PM
Also, when used as a CCW, the 380 has stopped more attacks with ONE SHOT, than 9mm, 40, and 45 cal pistols individually.
Idle speculation, utterly without any substantive evidence.
A post such as this speaks volumes about the poster.

TennJed
January 15, 2014, 10:55 PM
Also, when used as a CCW, the 380 has stopped more attacks with ONE SHOT, than 9mm, 40, and 45 cal pistols individually. Why, because studies show these people are more often armed "all the time", than those carrying larger guns and/ or larger calibers. I wish I could find the article as it must be in the U.S. conceal carry archives.






I would like to see proof of that. I am not bashing the 380, that is my primary carry, but I have never seen any documentation of what you are saying.



By your own theory I would guess the 9mm and 38sp would rank higher than the 380, just because I suspect it to be carried more. The explosion of the 380 carry is fairly new. Can't imagine what you posted has any truth to it

IBEWBULL
January 15, 2014, 11:06 PM
I hope someone has time to research my idea here on BBL length and accuracy.

In the past century the .32 and .380 has been a duty weapon in many nations. The .32 ACP in WWI killed an awful lot of folks.
These guns were a bit large than todays pocket guns. LCP and such has a shorter barrel less grip than a PPK or Mauser HSC or Bersa.
Accuracy and velocity both suffer is the smaller guns.
If I were to pack a .380 or .32 as primary CCW it would the larger one.
If I lack power then I want it at least accurate. I would also load HP and Ball every other round. IDEA is I want penetration plus expansion and don't see it with any one round. So double tap the target. Buffalo Bore has so good stuff.

I carry a J frame with 158 Gr LSWC in it.
The LCP may be in a pocket at a wedding or something but not likely too often.
I like to hit beyond 7 yards.
So my 2 cents worth.

gym
January 16, 2014, 12:26 AM
Stop talking about the past 50 years. I was carrying a gun the past 45 of them, and I carried a 380 because other than a snubby there wasn't anything else. If there was a small 9 or 40 or 45, do you think we would have carried the 380's?
Hell no, you now have guns that are smaller and carry a wallop that is much more likely to drop someone with a 25 foot shot to the chest than a 380.
This just comes up too many times, we have the equipment to do better now, so use it, stop going backwards. Large marketing firms are marketing these tiny guns like jewelry.
Sure they are nice and small and cool looking , but I would much rather have my XDS in my pocket.
More people were killed with this and that nonsense because they didn't have what we have now.

Gary A
January 16, 2014, 12:59 AM
My oft-stated personal belief (with absolutely no evidence or proof) is that the early popularity of the .380, especially in Europe and other places, was due to the unavailability of modern hollow point ammunition. In the days of fmj ammo, 9mm was simply too much for a civilian, non-battlefield situation because it simply penetrated too much. .380 ball provided that "sweet spot" of power which did not over-penetrate or, if it did, was largely spent after doing so. The arrival of modern hollowpoints turned all that upside down and now .380 hollowpoints tend to not penetrate enough and 9mm hollowpoints provide that "sweet spot" from shorter barrels. Fmj .380 still penetrates enough and is used by many people who carry .380s and are willing to sacrifice expansion for penetration. Sub-compact 9s can both expand and penetrate enough at the expense of more recoil and (usually) somewhat larger pistols. Few would recommend ball ammo in a pocket 9 but many do so for pocket .380s. In earlier days, hollowpoints were simply not an option, hence lower powered ball ammo had to do.

snooperman
January 16, 2014, 08:41 AM
Tennjed, and Orionengnr, if you want evidence of what I stated , it is on the website of US concealed Carry and written by LEO Greg Ellifritz in the July or June issue. It is under the Title " Choosing the best caliber for conceal carry." One correction...the 380 had 62% one shot stops, 9mm 47%, 40 and 45 40%. Soo there you can get it froom the "HORSE'S mouth since you doubt what I wrote. You can believe what you want but I stand by what I said about the 380.

PabloJ
January 16, 2014, 08:52 AM
With small 9 Luger pistols out there today there isn't much point in buying 9xshort. In ammo loaded with same weight bullet you're giving up about 300fps. To add insult to injury the cost of ammo is about the same.:uhoh:

snooperman
January 16, 2014, 09:04 AM
Type in "Choosing the best caliber for conceal carry" by Greg Ellifritz, and then click on it. His data was compiled by actual shootings. I know it is hard to believe but the evidence is there for the 380.

C0untZer0
January 16, 2014, 09:08 AM
I've read Greg Ellifritz and there are a few places where what he is saying doesn't make sense.

Maybe it's just me...


- What percentage of shooting incidents resulted in fatalities. For this, I included only hits to the head or torso.

Lots of incidents of people getting shot in the leg and dying, some even received almost immediate medical attention from paramedics and were transported to trauma centers rather quickly but still died. So maybe he is saying that you can't judge calibers by non-torso hits, something like a .32 is going to be ineffective if you shoot someone in the leg - but so is any round so lets only judge rounds by torso hits and head shots.

OK...

You can make the same argument for excluding head shots that can be made for excluding non-head and non-torso hits. A head shot with a .22 LR is going to be as effective as a head shot with a .500 S&W and most everything in between so the results are meaningless.

One shot stop percentage - number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall's number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.

A one shot stop is not the result of an equation it is a discreet data point to be counted. You don't calculate one-shot-stops, you count them.

PabloJ
January 16, 2014, 09:11 AM
Must be a wonderful cartridge. Glock is going to make fine pistol in this caliber right here just for us wise Americans.:o

jimbo555
January 16, 2014, 09:24 AM
Greg Ellifritz's study basically says that a 380 is just as effective as a 357 magnum! I can't buy that.

PabloJ
January 16, 2014, 10:34 AM
Greg Ellifritz's study basically says that a 380 is just as effective as a 357 magnum! I can't buy that.
I'm sure they're equally effective if the slug goes into an eye socket.

Gary A
January 16, 2014, 10:40 AM
Pablo makes a great point. It depends on how you define effective. If it is foot pounds of energy that's one thing. If it is success at ending hostilities, that could be something else entirely.

If one takes out an opponent with one well-placed 230 grain .45 acp, is that less effective than or equally effective as disintegrating the same opponent with a high explosive charge?

jimbo555
January 16, 2014, 10:44 AM
The problem is getting the bad guy to stand still so you can shoot him in the eye with your mouse gun.

snooperman
January 16, 2014, 11:19 AM
JIMBO555, his data is based on many different ways that the bad guy stops. If you want to kill him, then the larger caliber will do the job more effectively. However some of his data was compiled by stops that do not necessarily result in death but did involve stops. Some people were stopped by the mere presentation of the firearm or a shot to the arm,leg, or shoulder. When you look at all the reasons that bad guys are stopped in totality, then the smaller caliber guns , like the 380 , do just as well as a CCW as the larger guns. That is why he states at the end "caliber does not matter in a CCW" carry what you want. agree with his assessment. That said, if I were in LE I would want something bigger than a 380 because my role is different. There is nothing wrong in carrying a large caliber gun for a CCW. That said, Bigger is not really better.

jimbo555
January 16, 2014, 01:32 PM
The reasons that no law enforcement anywhere carry a 380 as a primary are the same reasons I don't. It's not about wanting to kill someone but having the ability to stop someone who wants to kill you. I want the edge that the larger caliber gives you over the less powerful calibers.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 16, 2014, 02:11 PM
The reason .380 looks so good in stats is because there are lots of them out there and lots of shootings using them that result in stops. Not because the caliber is any powerhouse. I carry 9mm and it has an advantage over the .380 in marginal hits...I like the edge of the bigger caliber.

My Wife? She cannot manage a 9mm....a .380 is the best she can do and it is not that much of a down grade from a 9mm to have her just give up and carry nothing.

I get perplexed by the concept that some folks present that seem to impart the idea that it is not a potent one shot man stopper and so anyone who carries it is delusional, lazy, a bad shot, inexperienced, old, stupid, etcetera.

We should all carry and use the biggest and most powerful caliber handgun we can manage to defend ourselves and practice with that caliber until we are comfortable. If that's a 13.5 ounce .45 good for you. I want my Wife to defend herself and that means a .380.

VooDoo

Potatohead
January 17, 2014, 02:15 PM
It might be interesting to note that some of the assassinations carried out by the Massad were supposedly done with Berretta 22cal pistols
Yea I dont think a true "spy" can probably get away with a hand cannon. Probably would like to be able to...

Gary A
January 18, 2014, 12:48 AM
I trust this comment fits in with the topic "what about the .380". The question of the .380 seems to engender a lot of discussion. Most people seem to dismiss it and say they would not rely on anything less than 9mm, though they do admit, reluctantly, that they would, and often do, feel it is sufficient for their wives, daughters, and aging mothers. (!!!) I wonder sometimes how many "shooters", especially male shooters, succumb to some form of the "Peter Principle" in our choice of a personal defense weapon, rising to one level beyond our level of true competence because we want to think of ourselves as tougher, better, stronger, abler, and a tad more macho than we really are. Many self defense shooters are minimally trained, work at sedentary jobs, are not getting younger, and will get older and weaker before they get younger and stronger. The only reason I suggest this is that while Sig took their small .380 and slightly enlarged it into a very small 9mm that is now in high regard, no less than two other major players have tweaked their small polymer 9mm pistols and are now offering the same gun in .380 acp (Ruger LC380 and Sig P290 in .380). A third major manufacturer has confounded expectations and offered not the small single stack 9mm as expected, but a smallish to medium-sized single stack .380 (Glock 42). What do these manufacturers see about the shootability and sales of small, lightweight 9s to make them throttle back, ease off the gas, and offer lesser powered alternatives to their micro 9s?

Could there be a parallel to the number of scandium .357s which were sold and then loaded with .38 Special ammo, often standard pressure Nyclads and Hornady rounds?

Curious.

I have not had the opportunity or pleasure of shooting any of these micro 9s so my speculation is just that - speculation. I suspect they are considerably friskier than the average .380, though.

goon
January 18, 2014, 02:32 AM
I've owned a lot of guns over the past few years. I can handle a lot of standard pressure .357 in an SP-101, but the compact 9mm's can be a little much for some shooters. I owned a Kahr P9 that was like that. I think if I could have changed the grips on it that would have helped, but aside from those Hogue slip-ons that I don't care for, there's not much to do with them. J-frame .38's do a little better though because I can change the grips on them. Lately, a friend's Shield 9mm turned out to be pretty controllable so one of them may be in the running. Maybe not... I'm not sure yet.

Anyhow, with my moderate level of experience as my guide, I'd honestly rather have a .380 that was relatively pleasant to practice with over a small 9mm that I could only stand to shoot two magazines through at a time. I'd rather be precise with a .380 than not precise with a 9mm or .40. I'm still looking for the right balance of power, size, and shootability for me. It'll probably come in the form of a couple guns for different seasons, but I think a .380 will be among them.

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