Mosin 91/30 Purchase Question


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lencac
December 13, 2013, 08:29 PM
Hi Guys:
I recently purchased a Izzy 91/30 on Gun Broker. Here's the complete listing description.
This is a all matching 1943 Mosin Nagant round receiver and Izzy marked. It comes with the oiler, sight tool, cleaning tools and Ammo pouch not pictured. It also comes with the matching numbered bayonet!! This rifles are getting harder to find and they are running out overseas. This gun will surely go up in value for sure better than money in the bank. This rifle is all matching! The bores on these are pristine. This gun just came out of a crate and were unissued since arsenal redone after WW2. This is the rifle you will get in the pics. This gun is legal to ship to all states and can be sent direct to a C&R holder. I will ship to AK and HI but shipping will be higher. I have many different Nagant rifles let me know if you need something different then this one for your collection!! If you hit BUY IT NOW I will pay for shipping!!

I received the rifle yesterday. I immediately ran a patch and brush down the bore. Upon inspection I could see the bore was very used and was also counter bored. Slight darkening but no pitting. I light of his description of the bore being "pristine" would any of you have an issue with this?

Here's the GB link
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=376716200

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lencac
December 13, 2013, 08:37 PM
Here is the gentleman's reply when I addressed this.

Sir the bores are pristine. The only thing affected in the counter bore process is the muzzle. The rifling is very good in all of this lot of rifles. Also counterboring improves accuracy. I never said anywhere in there that they weren't counterbored. That is not in any way a parts gun. I have two from the same lot that shoot great and are very accurate. Just because it is counterbored doesn't mean that it was shot out a lot of times it was do too improper cleaning.

So he obviously knew the barrels were counterbored yet made no mention of that in his posting.

Joshua M. Smith
December 13, 2013, 09:58 PM
Hello,

A counterbored Mosin is not worth $200. In fact, I don't think I'd pay $200 for any standard 91/30 unless it was pre-war.

In 1943, the Russians were churning the rifles out at an amazing rate to defend themselves. They kept them safe, but the fit and finish suffered.

Hell, I'd shoot it, and if it groups well, keep it, shim it, and be happy.

The only thing is that I'm not sure I'd consider a counterbore pristine, no matter how good the rest of the bore looked. A counterbore means the crown was damaged either by cleaning or mishap and instead of recrowning, the barrel was drilled back to where the rifling was good again.

I've thought a few times that it might be cool to cut a counterbored rifle back to the rifling and put a new crown on it.

As to your case, if the gun doesn't shoot, does the guy offer refunds? If not, about all you can do is a small claims case that may or may not succeed.

Regards,

Josh

lencac
December 13, 2013, 10:43 PM
Joshua I must say I am in complete agreement with you on all points.
Too bad as it is a completely numbers matching which is not easy to find, it's actually in real nice condition externally albeit the machining of the receiver is a bit rough just as you have noted and the claim it has a pristine bore made it enticing.
I'm communicating with him now about it.
He has offered to ship me another one that has not been counter bored. But that means I would incur more costs for shipping this one back and another transfer fee. That won't happen. So I'm negotiating a refund of some type. How much would you think would be in order?

carbine85
December 14, 2013, 08:19 AM
A pristine bore means "perfect or near perfect", just look it up. A counter bore or frosted bore isn't pristine plain and simple.
Fact: A counter bore will shoot better than a non counter bore rifle that needs a counter bore.
Fact: A pristine bore with a good crown should out shoot a counter bore.
Fact: A good bore with a counter bore should shoot pretty good.
Mosin Nagant fans are always making excuses for counter bores. One reason why they get counter bored is to compensate for muzzle erosion. It's not just from cleaning damage.
My M44 with a pristine non counter bore will out shoot my M38 with a counter bore. My 1943 91/30 with a pristine non counter bore will out shoot my Tula with a frosted bore.
FYI - The 1943 models can be pretty crude in fit and machining. Peak of the war production models are rough.
I just noticed you paid a premium for that rifle. I think I would be a little upset. They go for about $125 - $135 around here. The bayo may or may not match

Hokkmike
December 14, 2013, 08:26 AM
At the risk of negative feedback I would insist that he replace the rifle.

WhoMe?
December 14, 2013, 08:59 AM
By definition, to counterbore is to remove part of the bore for the purpose of enlarging it (in this case to form a new "crown"). Pristine is new or as new: in perfect condition. A bore with a portion removed (presumably due to loss of accuracy) is not pristine.

Doug S
December 14, 2013, 08:59 AM
Not so sure I buy the "original numbers matching" being so rare, and commanding a premium, either. From my experience all of the Mosin Nagant 91-30s I've purchased or have looked at, have been ground and restamped/force matched during the rearsenal process so that they all have nice looking stamped "matching numbers" with no trace of the original being visible. Don't know anything about "matching bayos".

Joshua M. Smith
December 14, 2013, 12:12 PM
My 1938 tang (1939 built) Izyevsk is not counter-bored. In fact, the bore slugs to 0.3015"x0.299", which is very good for a Russian rifle.

It does all match except for the bayonet, but that's not why I picked it out.

I had an idea that it was going to be a working gun, and it is. It also ended up being the rifle I use to test prototypes of stuff I make.

This rifle does truly shoot sub-MOA with just handloads and the Finnish shimming process. I put a good trigger in it (Finn M39-style copy which uses rolling bearings instead of static pins) and the pull is much nicer than any Mauser I've felt, save for the Swiss Mauser. It's better than the Gew88/05 I also keep loaded up for critter control and whatnot.

This 1939 91/30 is not a beauty queen. It wasn't the prettiest of the lot; in fact, it was one of the unlaminated birch stocks in an ocean of laminated 1942 and 1943 rifles.

I'd not trade it for any other Mosin, and dang few rifles. I know this rifle; I know where it hits and I know its idiosyncrasies.

After lots of work and lots of shooting, I'm finally through the grime layers in the barrel. It shoots better than ever, better than I can, and is just a wonderful piece. It's not wonderful in the areas true collectors consider rifles to be wonderful, but rather in the sense that it's a good, solid rifle that does everything I ask of it.

Unless you want something pretty to hang on your wall, you might look for one like this. When I buy another, I'll likely get it from here or another gun board, from an established member familiar with Mosins, and who knows how to (and is willing to) slug the bore prior to sale.

These are just the things I look for.

Regards,

Josh

Ian
December 14, 2013, 02:35 PM
Calling a counterbored barrel "pristine" is absolutely fraudulent marketing. Unfortunately, your options for redress are a bit limited, given the minimal dollar value of the rifle. If having a pristine bore is a huge priority, I would try to get the seller to take the rifle back and issue a refund.

You may find, though, that the rifle shoots quite well anyway. If you just want it for a shooter, then it's probably best to chalk this up to a learning experience and keep it (but giving the seller a negative feedback for misleading advertising). By the time you tally up the shipping cost, time spent writing back and forth, time spent driving to dealers and shippers, and the cost of another FFL transfer, you'll have basically paid for another rifle anyway.

As an aside, this is part of the benefit of getting a C&R license if you're into these types of guns - then you can at least bypass the transfer and transfer fee.

If it were me, I'd keep the gun. You overpaid, but not by a whole lot. An all-matching 91/30 is nice, and the matching bayonet is a bit unusual. Being counterbored, you can be pretty sure it saw a lot of wartime use, and that gives is some cachet, at least to me.

lencac
December 14, 2013, 11:56 PM
Ok, Here's what I've decided.

I offered that he could refund me $75 and we could call it a draw. He replied and said "It is no way I am willing to give you 75 dollars on that rifle."
Previously he had offered to send me another rifle and pay my FFL transfer fee, $35. He would have had at least $75 into it to do that. Plus I would have had another $40 into shipping this one back to him.
What a bananahead :eek:

So I informed him it's not about the money but the principle that from his previous response that I knew, he knew the barrel had been counter bored before the sale and that he intentionally failed to mention that critical fact in the posting in order to make maybe an extra $100 on it, if that. And then to further exacerbate the thing he had to go and say "The bores on these are pristine." The guy has done hundreds of transactions on GB so this isn't his first rodeo. He knew exactly what he was doing.

He said I could send it back for a refund. As I told him before I wasn't going to drop even one single penny more on this thing. So I told him that $75 or even $200 isn't going to make me and it isn't going to break me and that he probably needs the money worse than me so keep the measly $200 and I'll post feedback so other people don't have to deal with this foolishness too.:barf::cuss::fire::banghead:
Gun Broker is an excellent site to buy and sell firearms and this type of thing only serves to undermine its credibility.

lencac
December 15, 2013, 12:25 AM
Here's my last reply to him.

As I stated in hindsight the principle is more important than $75 or $200. I've never had a bad deal on GB, until now. You didn't say anything about the barrel being counter bored because you knew you wouldn't be able to sell it for more than in the $100 range, if that. There is thousands of these things out there that haven't been counter bored so why would I want to pay a premium price for one that I could have got for like $125 that has a barrel that has not been counter bored? Because you stated it has a pristine bore. That's why. Perhaps you didn't know they were counter bored when you bought them. And that would be unfortunate for you but that's not my problem.



I'm not paying one more penny on this thing for shipping not to mention the time, effort and hassle of packing and shipping it.



But you are entirely missing the point. You failed to acknowledge that you intentionally misrepresented this rifle and failed to provide a critical fact about the rifle in order to make maybe an extra $100 on it. You already said you would pay my FFL transfer fee, $35 plus your costs to ship another rifle to me. I can't believe you actually said "It is no way I am willing to give you 75 dollars on that rifle." You would have had that much money into it for shipping and my transfer fee. Plus I would have had another $40 into it myself for shipping this one back to you. Then who knows what the next rifle you send me looks like. Not to even mention how much money in lost sales you would incur from this being put in your feedback.

I really can't believe you said no to refunding me $75 and we both walk away and get good feedback on GB. The things that make you say, "uh." If you can't afford the money just say so. I could respect that at least. But the way you are playing this is less than forthright.



So what more can you do? Is be honest and forthright on your postings.

You see it's not about the money.

I'm not a rich man but I am a man of principle.



Gun Broker is an excellent site for selling and buying firearms. This type of thing will only serves to undermine its credibility.

His response was "Cpucy"
What does that mean?:scrutiny:

Palehorseman
December 15, 2013, 03:38 AM
Yesterday I was in a LGS and there sat a 1943 counter bored Izzy, it had to be the worst of the worst so far as Soviet rushed war time production. I mean the overall machine work looked as if an angry beaver with tool steel teeth had attacked it.

But the guy was $250.00 proud of it.

Ash
December 15, 2013, 07:10 AM
Exterior machining on a 1943 was rough, but they didn't skimp where it counted. The bores, bolts, raceways, and magazine interiors on even the roughest 43 would still be good. They just didn't waste time on cosmetics when they were trying to get rifles to the troops.

As far as value, $250 is steep but not at all because of the rough finish. It is steep because 1943 was a very common year. The rough machining tells quite a story. It tells of the desperate days of Stalingrad, the Siege of Lenningrad, the fall of Western Russia, White Russia, the Ukraine, literally the enemy just being pushed from the gates of Moscow, with hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops and civilians dead. A rifle machined in 1943 saw bitter action throughout the rest of the war. It never, ever, sat alone in an armory somewhere. It crossed the steppes of Russia or dove into the Caucasus's. It crossed Poland and entered Germany.

I have currency from the Philippines beginning prior to the Japanese invasion. The early notes were well-made and looked like any other nation's currency. As the Japanese invasions spread, quality went down to simple engraving and simple colors, as Japanese domination was almost complete, the currency looked like a cheap coupon printed on brown paper sacks. The quality itself told a story. I have Confederate and southern State notes that show the exact same progression, from good quality to one-sided simple wood cuts.

As far as a relic of history, it is quite an important piece of history and well worth owning for the student of WWII.

Any rifle with counter boring is not pristine, but I have never hesitated in owning one if it had features I otherwise wanted. I would have complained about the price and description, however. In any case, $125 for a counterbored 91/30 is okay. It'll still be a decent shooter, perhaps a great shooter.

lencac
December 15, 2013, 11:22 AM
I just learned something.
We're all cosmoline sniffing squirrels:what:

Yep that's what he said.
He also said we could all go do something to ourselves.

I said; "you're the one selling Mosins, that's the pot calling the kettle black. Do you see the irony?":scrutiny:

Then I said; "Keep the money, buy your kids something nice. Maybe you could scrape enough pristine cosmoline out of those pristine barrels to give them a pristine ball of cosmoline :) I'm sure they would appreciate the effort and it's something they could cherish for years!";)

Then I wished him a Merry Christmas and don't forget to donate to Wounded Warrior Project
And then I bid him ado.

mgkdrgn
December 15, 2013, 11:58 AM
1) There is no such thing as a Mosin 91/30 with a "pristine" bore. These guns are all combat vets and shot at Nazis. That doesn't say that they can't and won't be very good, they were all rebuilt to "line issue" specs after the war, but "pristine" they ain't.

2) Counter boring, if done correctly, is not necessarily a bad thing. The Russians counter bored like their lives depended on it ... cause they did!

3) You -do- have a 3 - 5 day "inspection" period, as per GB's rules, where you can return an item for any reason. Don't expect the seller to pay return shippping.

4) Why didn't you buy one of -my- Mosins? I'm cheaper and mine are not counterbored. (ColumbiaArms) :neener:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=381908553

mgkdrgn
December 15, 2013, 12:01 PM
Yesterday I was in a LGS and there sat a 1943 counter bored Izzy, it had to be the worst of the worst so far as Soviet rushed war time production. I mean the overall machine work looked as if an angry beaver with tool steel teeth had attacked it.

But the guy was $250.00 proud of it.
Well, he's gonna have that gun for a long, long time. That's what I get for my very nice (if I do say so myself) M44's.

Joshua M. Smith
December 15, 2013, 01:31 PM
4) Why didn't you buy one of -my- Mosins? I'm cheaper and mine are not counterbored. (ColumbiaArms)
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=381908553

Are the hat and ammo included? http://images.thehighroad.org/smilies/fce32f95.gif

Seriously though, I'm starting then hunt for another Mosin.

My favorite one slugs out to 0.3015"x0.299". It's Russian and shoots very nicely with that barrel.

If I were to go with you, would you be willing to slug the bores before I bought? I'd want one I could get equal precision from, and that means 0.310" or under for the components I use.

Regards,

Josh

lencac
December 15, 2013, 02:24 PM
There is no such thing as a Mosin 91/30 with a "pristine" bore.
Ding, ding, ding .......... winner, winner, chicken dinner;) You are correct.
In all reality I didn't expect an as new barrel but I did expect a very good barrel with perhaps even some light frosting but definitely not counter bored.
And I thought it being #'s matching was a little icing on the cake. It does have a nice solid stock that has unmolested edges and is virtually undinged.

mdkgrgn ................. now you tell me:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure I know why that buttplate was still on the stock. Because the screws were completely rusted into the stock. They weren't coming out without extraordinary measures. I pretty much had to destroy the screws to get them out. I have others. Not to mention a thick layer of rust between the stock and the buttplate.
The recoil lug was likewise also totally rusted into the stock.

Anyway, I let the guy off the hook. I just wanted to hold his feet to the fire a little bit and give him some chit so he gives it a second thought before he does this type of thing again.

So I'll clean this thing up and work it over a little bit and keep it for shooting cheap surplus ammo through.

Hey mdkgrgn you wouldn't possibly be in the trucking business?

Whacked
December 16, 2013, 12:20 PM
I have a 44 Tula hex M44 that is counterbored. paid $250 a couple years back.
A little pricey? probably
worth it? for me, yes.
Shoots well, with a NOS Finn trigger/sear spring the trigger is better than most modern rifles.
For the OP, $200 seems a little steep for a 91/30, especially since most Big 5 are selling them for less.
But the real bottom line is: how does it shoot? and aside from the issue with seller and counterbore, are you happy?

mgkdrgn
December 16, 2013, 01:01 PM
Are the hat and ammo included? http://images.thehighroad.org/smilies/fce32f95.gif

Seriously though, I'm starting then hunt for another Mosin.

My favorite one slugs out to 0.3015"x0.299". It's Russian and shoots very nicely with that barrel.

If I were to go with you, would you be willing to slug the bores before I bought? I'd want one I could get equal precision from, and that means 0.310" or under for the components I use.

Regards,

Josh
Na, I'll let you slug your own barrel. Right now I have war-time rounds, pre-war rounds, TULA pre-war rounds with EP serial numbers, and M44's. None are counter bored, most have matching stamped numbers (except those TULA's, of course).

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