What happened?


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Jaxondog
December 14, 2013, 07:17 PM
Could someone help with some ideas of what went wrong with this round.

once fired PMC brass [223 rem ]

primer pocket's swaged to remove crimp

55 gr. FMJ Rainier bullet

25grs AA2230

these rounds have a .006 jump to lands

This has happened 2 other times in different rifles. None where known to have a headspace problem but all were on the same brass [PMC]. I am now separating all PMC brass and loaded rounds as I have not a clue what has happened. Yes, it messed the bolt up pretty bad.:)

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/036_zps4eea8ed0.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/030_zpsc1fc96e5.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/032_zps28471753.jpg

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jwrowland77
December 14, 2013, 07:19 PM
Is this a different lot of powder from when you did the workup?

Did you happen to see any pressure signs when you did the original workup?

Did you change any components from the original workup?

That's all I can think of.

FROGO207
December 14, 2013, 07:29 PM
As stated if EVERYTHING remained constant and it was only the PMC brass you had problems with then you might have a bad batch of brass. Are you SURE that the propellant level was the same in ALL the rounds. Using a progressive and getting odd drops might be possible. Also did you measure the brass before reloading. Pinched necks will raise pressure dramatically also. You need to find out what happened and correct it now.:scrutiny:

edfardos
December 14, 2013, 08:16 PM
Doe the flash hole seem large to you?

Hard brass cracked during swaging?

The brass/webbing seems fine, and the primer pocket failed?

Edfardos

Walkalong
December 14, 2013, 08:24 PM
You have to assume the brass is OK, and look for a problem that could cause high pressures.

.006 off the lands is simply not repeatable with 55 Gr FMJ bullets. The ogives are just not that consistent. Some may end up being into the lands. Into the lands is OK if the load is worked up that way. Trying to be close to the lands with a 55 gr FMJ is a waste of time anyway. They don't shoot well enough to worry with this.

It isn't a head space problem.

Doe the flash hole seem large to you?Expanded from the same pressure that blew the case.

James2
December 14, 2013, 08:35 PM
Does the rifle completely support the brass when in firing position? Or is there a bit of the base not supported?

If the base is not completely supported it just blew out. A combo of rifle design, high pressure and weak brass.

rcmodel
December 14, 2013, 09:01 PM
Nobody's rifle design fully supports the case head 360 degrees all the way around if it has an extractor cut in the bolt.

And this looks like it came out of an AR-15 or something which does have an extractor cut in the bolt.

That ain't the problem.

rc

hovercat
December 14, 2013, 09:06 PM
The solution in this case is to sell the reloading equipment and use the proceeds to purchase factory ammo.
The third rifle? And you did not pull all the loaded rounds and begin back at the starting load after the first?

gamestalker
December 14, 2013, 09:22 PM
It's hard to say what the culprit was, but I would feel confident excessive pressures are what ultimately caused the case to let go.

Some things to check.

Measure the brass. Bottle necks that are in need of trimming and exceed maximum can pinch in the throat.

Check the powder charge weights in the remaining cartridges.

Check your scale, was it zeroed properly?

Did you charge with the wrong powder, more than one on the bench is often the cause of this mistake.

And .006" off the lands isn't wise with an AL rifle. Nothing much to be gained by this, but certainly much to be lost.

Are you certain that you used the correct weight bullets. A heavier bullet will absolutely create an excessive pressure situation.

GS

243winxb
December 14, 2013, 09:40 PM
25grs AA2230 is for a 5.56 chamber. There are AA2230-S and AA2230-C powders. Are you loading the correct one? What is the weight of the empty, deprimed PMC brass? There is bad brass out there in factory ammo & once fired. http://www.photobucket.com/kabooom

M1key
December 14, 2013, 09:44 PM
QUOTE: "25grs AA2230 is for a 5.56 chamber"

My data shows it is max load for a 223 chamber



Happened in 2 other rifles?

Brass is once-fired....ummm...in what? Machine gun?

Scrap the brass and start over with new brass or at least of known origin. I use Winchester, IMI, PPU, Lake City, and Federal (don't care for R-P). I have reloaded with some PMC, but only because I shot it new.

Good luck

M

243winxb
December 14, 2013, 10:15 PM
QUOTE: "25grs AA2230 is for a 5.56 chamber"

My data shows it is max load for a 223 chamber
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_7-2-13.pdf The 223 rem maximum data is lower than 25gr, except for one bullet, if i look at it correctly. :) This has happened 2 other times in different rifles. If i had a few KABOOM before, i sure would change something. :banghead: 5.56mm Nato factory ammo is not to be shot in 223 Rem. Chamber. I would guess this applies to reloads, loaded to higher 5.56 pressures.:confused:

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 12:23 AM
First, I forgot to mention the rifle; Savage Axis Bolt action without accutrigger

I'm sure it is a different lot of powder as for the other two kabooms has been about 9 or 10 years ago. One was in a Howa, the other in a Rem 700. Both incidents were with PMC cases.

I have never loaded rifle cartridges in a progressive. All were loaded on a single stage, powder weighed on one of two digitals scales; Tact, and RCBS. After weighing set in loading block.

I have not checked the flash hole but I will.

Walkalong, you are correct. I'm just telling what I had at the time. This little rifle really liked 50-52 gr. bullets a lot.

Hovercat, I probably should not waste my time with your silly remark but I will. It has been years apart and thousands of rounds shot between the accidents.

Never more than one powder on the bench. Always use an orange sticker, [round] write what powder is being used on it and attach it to the lid on the powder scale.

243winxb, I'm sure after 9 years and thousands of round later there has been change. I'm well aware of the difference between the Nato and the 223 Rem. loads, as I am of all the different max loads for all the different manufacture of powder's and bullets of the same weight. You would think they would all agree.

Thanks for the replys, even the sarcastic one's.

M1key
December 15, 2013, 12:37 AM
Thank you

M

joed
December 15, 2013, 06:27 AM
You're loading to hot, plain and simple. Not all brass will hold the same amount of powder. Just because a load worked in one brand of case does not mean it will work in another brand of case.

smokey262
December 15, 2013, 08:50 AM
I agree with walkalong that 0.006 in. jump is way too long of a cartridge with that bullet. I bet the one that blew was jammed hard.

Another thing to check is to measure the diameter of the bullet with a 1 in. mic. Sometimes those plated bullets are a little generous in diameter.
Are they all 0.2240 in ?

Slightly larger diameter+cartridge with very little jump+near max charge=occasional kaboom

You could try re-seating them to about 0.020 in. jump, or if you are really itchy to use that length try starting out low again with a jammed bullet and see where the charge winds up.

Walkalong
December 15, 2013, 10:29 AM
Another thing to check, and it has been mentioned, is case weight. My plinking load is safe in any normal .223 case weight since I am using mixed brass. The occasional case where the powder comes up a lot higher in the neck get pulled out of the press and scrapped. There are some very heavy cases out there. Keep an eye out for them. This is for general shooting with mixed brass.

With a bolt gun where one is shooting a max load (Especially), and or shooting for accuracy, I would highly recommend using matching brass.

I have some 2230-S, and it is has its own personality.

Something happened, and since we were not there with it in a lab when it was shot, we have to give it our best guess to try to answer your question.

Looks like high pressure, and not bad brass, but it could be a soft head. Really no way to check that without testing the case. :)

243winxb
December 15, 2013, 10:39 AM
Testing the web thickness may tell us something. Over on AR15.com they test Federal brass. Some handloaders will not load the brass if under a set thickness. I made the tool, it works. http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=276154 See photos at link. Not mine.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 10:57 AM
First, your bullet sounds suspect. I did not know Rainier manufactured any FMJ bullets. In fact I did not not they manufactured any .224 bullets.

If they are indeed Rainier bullets they may be plated. Pushing a plated rifle that fast is bad JuJu.

Next your load is over Max according to Accurate, couple that with the "plated" bullet pig jammed into the lands and you will get just what you got, an over pressure KB. Yes, your bullet is to close to the lands for an Over Max charge of any powder.

Walkalong
December 15, 2013, 11:08 AM
Very interesting thread 243winxb.

I am not familiar with that bullet, but yes, if that is a plated bullet, all bets are off for sure. If it is I would think they would give a warning.

Berrys sells a 55 Gr FMJ, but it is a jacketed bullet. It had to be loaded with a little lighter powder charge than the Winchesters I had been using, but shot better.

Anyone have a link to this Rainer bullet? I would think it was jacketed, or there would be bigger problems at that velocity. Maybe not, just seems reasonable.

M1key
December 15, 2013, 12:13 PM
Yes very interesting link about FC brass. Mine is all left over match brass and have never had a problem with it.

I didn't realize Rainer rifle bullets were plated? I have always avoided any plated bullets in pistol or rifle as I have read they can cause problems if driven too fast. But I have no personal experience with them.

All my 556 ARs and the 223 chambers I have (Tikka, Rem700T) shoot my favorite loads: 75 Hornady or 77 SMK, with a full charge of 24.5 gr of Varget and CCI400 or Fed Match primers, OAL of 2.26. I do not seat off the lands.

I use Winchester brass exclusively for the 223 chambers. This load occasionally will "lightly" flatten a primer in the bolt guns.

I have since moved on to 55 Vmax in 223 as they are a bit cheaper to shoot and I am getting good results.

M

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 12:14 PM
steve4102 you may be right about the Rainier bullet. I had Rainier pistol bullets on my mind while talking to a friend about his 10 mm and trying to type at same time. These three rounds I loaded the other day were Speer and as good as I can remember the other two incidents I was using Hornady bullets. Thanks for correcting that as I am not perfect.

Smokey262 and Walkalong; I thought about it last night and I'm leaning toward the .006 jump may be the culprit, or the case. I know that they were .006, .006, .007 cause I checked them as I do all my rounds when shooting for the same hole. I generally give .015 to .025 on the jump but this day I was reaching out maybe a little too far.lol. But then again, Why would all three times be on a PMC case. No I don't remember what loads I was using the two times before, other than they were 55 gr. bullets and the cases that blew were PMC.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 12:23 PM
I didn't realize Rainer rifle bullets were plated?

Maybe they are not? I have never seen a Rainier Rifle bullet in .224, not in person and not on-line.

Someone show me a link to a Rainier .224 rifle bullet, please.

jeeptim
December 15, 2013, 12:44 PM
I have loaded lots of 223/5.56. Went through my pmc phase and I found the case heads to be soft this is commercial pmc the extractor tears it up upon thr second load signs of case head seperation I always load mid range and am very anal about case inspection I have found two out of maybe 10k with damaged heads maybe we shoot at the same range. This is what I think bad over charged mag primers out the box.

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 12:48 PM
I am inclined to agree with you also. I have decided to get rid of the PMC brass that I have wether it is the problem or not. I do feel it is partly the problem

jerkface11
December 15, 2013, 12:54 PM
I would guess this applies to reloads, loaded to higher 5.56 pressures.

5.56 isn't loaded to higher pressures. The only difference is the throat on the chamber. The pressure is stated as higher for 5.56 because the military measured it in CUP and listed it as PSI.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 01:00 PM
5.56 isn't loaded to higher pressures. The only difference is the throat on the chamber. The pressure is stated as higher for 5.56 because the military measured it in CUP and listed it as PSI.

No.

308 vs 7.62 NATO, yes. 223 vs 5.56, No.

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 01:11 PM
These next few pics hopefully will set the score straight on the " 25gr over maxed" I have been loading for over 40 years and do not rely on any one particular manual. I work up all loads as I have for years and the 25gr of AA2230 under a 55 gr FMJ bullet is not over maxed. And yes I do have them all and they are very different to say the least, lets just say the Acurate manual's. They have the same bullet load in different books stating different max charges. You can see in some of the pics. Takes too long to upload and download all the books so here is a few.


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/017_zps068f7c2c.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/016_zpse562a209.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/015_zpsf647a9f8.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/014_zps7ce8fba5.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/011_zps9adaa531.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/012_zps5117889c.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/008_zpsd2581696.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/009_zpsb937074e.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/006_zps4f9e5029.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/007_zpsec63437c.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/004_zps8d4a5031.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/005_zpsa95d3a05.jpg


http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/002_zps534d50f8.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p633/jaxondog102/003_zps5a07edba.jpg


I guess I should have just asked has anyone had bad relations with the PMC brass. lol Thanks anyway as always it looks like I don't have enough post's to know anything. lol

jerkface11
December 15, 2013, 01:27 PM
No.

308 vs 7.62 NATO, yes. 223 vs 5.56, No.

Uh no. .308 is loaded to a higher pressure than 7.62 nato. .223 and 5.56 are loaded to the same pressure.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 01:59 PM
Uh no. .308 is loaded to a higher pressure than 7.62 nato. .223 and 5.56 are loaded to the same pressure.

Start a new thread. We'll talk.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 02:02 PM
Jaxson, you are missing one very important point.

Your manuals are old. Accurate change 2230 back in 2007 and is now the same as Ramshot X-Terminator. The only tested and up to date load data is from Western Powders. At this point in time, their data is the only data I trust. YMMV

M1key
December 15, 2013, 02:30 PM
I found a 55gr load...

Accurate Arms online Edition 5.0 (2010)

223 Remington (not NATO)

using 2230 powder

55 HDY BT-FMJ 22.4 2,976 24.9 3,278 54,466 2.200

I still say the OP's original powder load was within specs. If the data is no longer vaild, someone needs to contact Western Powders.

M

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 03:12 PM
I still say the OP's original powder load was within specs. If the data is no longer vaild, someone needs to contact Western Powders.

Not really, Western Has updated their data, it's the rest of the data out their that needs to be updated.

I would agree that the OP's load may well be within specs, but not with the bullet jammed into the lands. That requires a "start low and work up" no matter how old the data is.

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 03:13 PM
Jaxson, you are missing one very important point.

Your manuals are old. Accurate change 2230 back in 2007 and is now the same as Ramshot X-Terminator. The only tested and up to date load data is from Western Powders. At this point in time, their data is the only data I trust. YMMV
I was not aware of that. But also the powder I have was bought long before that so that should not be a factor. JMHO. I'm an old dog and love to learn new tricks but these have worked for me and others I know for many years.:)

243winxb
December 15, 2013, 03:23 PM
http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Saved%20stuff-private/AA2230Powder.jpg Different bullet = Different Pressure. or reduce the powder. The 5.56X45MM Nato load > 55 HDY BT-FMJ 23.7 3,133 26.3 3,452 61,380 2.200 Not to be fired in a 223 Rem. Chamber.?? :evil:

M1key
December 15, 2013, 03:29 PM
:cool:




M

Jaxondog
December 15, 2013, 03:50 PM
Bullet is not jammed! .... The powder I have was bought I believe in the late 1990's or very early 2000..... the manuals are for that era and newer. ...If the powders changed and some of you are looking into those manuals with the new powder ratings, that's fine and dandy. I believe what you are saying and printing, but keep in mind ... my old powder and old manuals are what I went by. Not new powder and new ratings. I'm not going to get into a scit slinging festival on here and I do appreciate the one or two who tried to understand instead of attacking without understanding. I will remove all PMC brass, drop charge with that powder, not load that close to the land's [jammed lol ] and probably want have this problem again. I'm getting to old for having any more kbooms. Yaw have fun, :)

243winxb
December 15, 2013, 03:59 PM
Yes, very different data over the years.

jerkface11
December 15, 2013, 04:07 PM
You said it happened more than once. Did the other piece of brass blow out just like that one? Does any more of your PMC brass show signs of over pressure?

hovercat
December 15, 2013, 04:30 PM
Not meant as a silly remark, apologies extended. Given only the info in the original post, what advice would you give to someone with 3 case failures in 3 different rifles in an unknown time frame and round count, who wondered what was wrong with the brass?
I would submit the possibility of a, often-fired case getting mixed in with the once fired brass. Resulting in a thicker case neck and increased pressure.
Since you have so much time and treasure invested in this load, perhaps you could get it pressure tested.

steve4102
December 15, 2013, 04:55 PM
Bullet is not jammed!

Sure they are. You are loading .006 off the lands. That is less than the thickness of a human hair, give or take. Your bullets and press can vary OAL buy at least that much. You are jammed, make no mistake. .006 with a max load is your problem.

Match10
December 15, 2013, 10:59 PM
Brass that is heavy walled and a compressed charge which would not normally be compressed in another manufacturer's case... That IS a max load.

NCsmitty
December 15, 2013, 11:12 PM
make no mistake. .006 with a max load is your problem.

That does appear to be the issue. Even on quality FMJ bullets, the ogive can vary up to .010" in batches, and that's what ultimately contacts the leade initially. You can have consistent COAL, but if there is more variation in the ogive than your set COAL, and you're pushing the envelope on the load, the resulting pressure spike can do exactly what you have experienced. The case is the weak link.
My target ammo gets no less than .020" off the lands, and I check and mark each box of bullets that I open.
I'm glad that you apparently suffered no injury, and can continue to enjoy a great hobby. Rock on.


NCsmitty

Rushthezeppelin
December 15, 2013, 11:48 PM
One thing I haven't seen brought up and am in no way accusing you of doing it wrong. How was your powder stored since it has obviously been around for a decade or more. If it has degraded any that will definitely cause higher pressures especially in double base powders (have no clue if 2230 is single or double base). Once again not an accusation just trying to throw something out there that hasn't been suggested yet.

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