Remington changing opinion on home protection?


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multigauge
December 21, 2013, 02:20 PM
Remington Arms has an interesting article in their December, 2013 Ezine which is available on-line. The article on page 29 now admits that #1 or #4 Buckshot is "just about ideal" for home protection. It is not necessary to debate this issue, since it has already been beaten to a thousand deaths on this forum. However, I wonder if this means that they will no longer be promoting their 2x4 birdshot and BB HD ultimate home defense loads which were supposedly developed for the same purpose?

You may read the complete article at the following link:

www.remingtonezine.com

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AI&P Tactical
December 21, 2013, 02:50 PM
I did not take that from it. They are giving an opinion based on the size of the shot and their point is not very valid. #1 or #4 is going through the same sheet rock wall in your home that 00 would and since there are more pellets in # and #4 there is a greater chance that they will strike and innocent.

I use 00 because that is what I used throughout my career. It would also be an issue should I have to use my weapon and a simple answer is that 00 is the universal load for Law Enforcement use and therefor it is reason that a citizen would use it also. The problems come in when people are using mixed loads and loads with names like Zombie or Devastator.

So as long as their is a market for Remingtons gimmick ammo they will make and sell it.

PabloJ
December 21, 2013, 07:43 PM
Real ole' news.:rolleyes: The #1 BK has been top choice of professionals for personal defense for many years now.

Nickel Plated
December 21, 2013, 07:45 PM
I would definately stick with 00 buck for HD in my shotgun. People worry too much about over penetration IMO. It's an issue that you really can't do anything about. Frankly, the vast majority of buildings, especially homes, in the U.S. are built as barely anything more than a cardboard box. Anything that will effectively penetrate to the vital organs of an attacker, will more than effectively penetrate a couple of pieces of sheetrock. Any projectile that can be safely stopped by that sheetrock will be barely more effective than yelling curses at the guy.

Instead of obsessing over ammo. Determine your most likely lanes of fire in the home. Where is the attacker most likely to come from? The front door? Probably. The back door? Even more likely. That window close to the ground with an AC unit under it that makes just the perfect step ladder? Oh yeah.
Where in the house are you most likely to be in that event? Where do you generally spend all your time?

Now that you know which way the rounds will be flying, reinforce the back stops in those lanes of fire. If you can, maybe put some steel plate inside the wall where you expect to shoot. Or buy a nice steel door.

If you can't tear up your walls. Put a piece of furniture like a dresser or even a mirror on that wall and hide some plate behind that.

And just generally be mindful of where you're shooting.

Hunterdad
December 21, 2013, 07:56 PM
I don't see why the big deal with buckshot lately. Multiple pellets traveling at over 1000fps is enough to ruin anyone's day.

PabloJ
December 21, 2013, 08:02 PM
Winchester makes #1Bk @1250fps in 70mm case. That is particularly nice load and available at local Walmart for $4.77 per 5. The SG BK is highly over-rated load for HD.

multigauge
December 22, 2013, 06:46 PM
It just seems strange that Remington is coming around to agreeing with that. Maybe they won't promote their birdshot for home defense any more.

Cooldill
December 22, 2013, 07:07 PM
Not sure I really care. A no. 8 heavy field load will ruin any attacker's day. Yes it might penetrate some drywall, but it certainly won't penetrate as much as buck or slug.

Black Knight
December 22, 2013, 07:08 PM
More than 20 years ago when I was an armed Security Patrol Officer I kept my patrol shotgun (Winchester 1200) loaded with #1 Buck and felt very good with it. I always thought #1 Buck was a better choice for my purpose than 00 Buck. Now the state requires 00 Buck.

351 WINCHESTER
December 22, 2013, 08:35 PM
I know the Treasury Dept. (Customs) used no 4 buckshot for a long time. Don't know what they use now.

safebustr
December 22, 2013, 10:05 PM
I was a correctional specialist (95C) at the army's maximum security prison (USDB) Fort Leavenworth, Kansas and we were issued #4 buck for our shotguns. When questioning the reason for this I was told you got 27 chances of hitting them vs 9 chances. So I have some #4 but also use #1 and 00. I feel safe that either one will do the job at 20 feet, the distance from my bedroom door to the spot I plan on waiting until the police arrive if and when someone is breaking in. If the mossy 590A1 isn't handy then the XD 45 will have to do.

Manny
December 23, 2013, 01:12 AM
After doing a lot of reading and study I switched from #4 to #1 buck for my home defense loads. It seems to be the most balanced and versitle all around.

Hapworth
December 23, 2013, 10:21 AM
4 buck'll handle most jobs, but I don't know why Remington would start championing it, if in fact that's what they're doing.

1 buck has long had a rep as the quietly best choice because the larger number of pellets ultimately adds up to greater "acreage" of wounding compared to the more traditional and thoroughly dependable 00 buck, while still achieving minimum penetration per FBI protocols (which #4 does not).

Thing is, I don't think there's a 1 or 4 buck Remington makes that'll pattern nearly as nicely as Remington Managed Recoil 00 Buck. I've run the pattern tests at 22 yards with an 870 18" open cylinder and in that particular gun Remington's #4 and standard 00 buck did the predictable one inch spread per yard traveled. Don't know if you've recently looked at an approximately two foot spread on a human silhouette but it looks like a few good hits and several troublesome misses. Both these loads kicked significantly more than Managed Recoil, as you might expect. I'd wager a Remington 1 buck would perform similarly.

Not sure what Remington's doing with their Managed Recoil 00 buck, but at the same 22 yards it cut that spread by roughly half. I'll take it.

Now the 1 buck load I'd stake things on is Federal's LE Flight Control; that stuff in 00 buck is incredible at distance -- hand-sized patterns at 22 yards -- and I've no doubt their 1 buck offering is excellent, too. Good luck finding it anywhere, though.

In the meantime, to heck with standard loads, 00, 1 or 4, and their kick and spread. Remington's Managed Recoil or Federal's Flight Control here, please.

As for Remington's Home Defense line, I think it's discontinued. Don't know why, but presumably it wasn't a seller. I'm largely in the "birdshot is for birds" camp, but people in apartments, town homes and condominiums do have special circumstances and I wouldn't begrudge them trading best terminal ballistics for increased care for innocents very near them, so long as they were making an informed decision.

Pyzon
December 23, 2013, 08:21 PM
I liked reading about Federal LE #1 buck with the flight control wad, but in 18 months I have yet to find anyone with it in stock. So, now I have both 00 and #4 buck in my 2 12ga pumps. Both shoot good, but the S&B 12 pellet load of 00 is the best pattern that is easily available.

Onmilo
December 24, 2013, 12:58 PM
I have used 00 buck as a go to round for years and also understand that the stuff is a 40 foot maximum effective cartridge.
I use the low recoil stuff because it patterns well and recovery is a bit improved.
If you can hit what you are pointing at, none of the buckshot is going through your sheetrock at in house distances.

Hapworth
December 24, 2013, 05:33 PM
I have used 00 buck as a go to round for years and also understand that the stuff is a 40 foot maximum effective cartridge.Presume you mean 40 yards?

C0untZer0
December 24, 2013, 06:07 PM
a simple answer is that 00 is the universal load for Law Enforcement use and therefor it is reason that a citizen would use it also

Law Enforcement, in general was using 38 special revolvers for many years. There wasn't a whole lot of science behind it, but the reasoning was pretty much what you stated - almost universal caliber for Law Enforcement use and therefor it is reason that Police Departments would use it.

Then there was the media buzz in gun magazine and LE periodicals about criminals arming themselves with hi-cap nines. And then many departments began to migrate to 9mm semi-autos.

Then the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout happened and the FBI started to apply science and engineering principles to the issue of terminal ballistics.

The same methodology has been applied to 12ga shotgun ammunition:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.

A standard 2 -inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

Unless there is some kind of well-publicized failure of #00 Buck or some other shot size, people will continue to believe whatever they want and use whatever they believe is best. I can't see #00 Buck failing to stop an attacker if the shot is COM. I can't see #4 Buck failing to stop an attacker if the shot is COM either. That doesn't mean that #00 or #4 Buck is the most effective ammo that can be used.

I think most handgun ammunition is marginal at best in immediately stopping an attack and if you have a round which doesn't penetrate to sufficient depth to destroy vital tissue or fails to perform in some other critical way, then proper cartridge selection is extremely important.

I think the 12ga shotgun with #4 Buck or larger is so overwhelmingly devastating that there probably will not be a real-life scenario where #00 Buck or #4 Buck, or anything in between, fails to stop an attacker. There is a very large margin for ammo selection that is still going to be effective, but I think #1 Buck would be the most effective, barring some situation where it really patterns badly out of your shotgun or something.

rbernie
December 24, 2013, 06:10 PM
Performance in gel doesnt mean as much as performance in my shotgun. Patterning trumps scholastics, as always.

Sadly, I have yet to see anything displace Federal 132 or 133 in terms of patterning, flash suppression, and repeatability.

Guns&Religion
December 24, 2013, 06:20 PM
I would definitely not use birdshot.

There is a case of a woman in 2004 who was shot in the face by her husband with a shotgun, and the load was birdshot. The shot did not penetrate her skull, unfortunately it did remove her face, though she lived.

I would be worried about using supposedly "lethal" force this way and disabling an intruder without killing him.

In court, his lawyer would say he was just trying to steal my tv so he could sell it for food, or some other such nonsense. I would be sued and lose everything I own.

I would definitely use the buckshot, and lean towards 00.

Onmilo
December 25, 2013, 11:44 AM
Nope.
I meant 40 feet, not yards or meters.
If you think ranges will be longer, switch to slugs.

Pyzon
December 25, 2013, 12:18 PM
Nope.
I meant 40 feet, not yards or meters.
If you think ranges will be longer, switch to slugs.

Most of us think the rooms in our homes are the size of a basketball court. From corner to corner in the largest room in my house, the longest distance I could possibly shoot, inside, is 10 yards. In most rooms, typically 3-5 yards.

nathan
December 25, 2013, 12:33 PM
Any of those will work. Even a .22 LR will make a badguy's day go really bad. I have plenty of 00 buck as those are the most available i buy at Walmart with their econopak. I might get some of the #1 buck, i see it is .30 in diameter and holds 10 in a shell.

Mike1234567
December 25, 2013, 01:50 PM
I live in a sixty-four foot long trailer with doorways that show the full length end-to-end. Even at thirty yards I'd feel comfortable hitting a bad guy with anything from #4 to #00 buck shot.

Hapworth
December 25, 2013, 10:52 PM
Nope.
I meant 40 feet, not yards or meters.
If you think ranges will be longer, switch to slugs.I'm surprised, buckshot'll maintain terminal effectiveness well past 13 yards; we were trained not to switch to slugs until around 40 yards and out.

Riomouse911
December 26, 2013, 05:56 PM
I am issued 00 buck, but no one here knows why, they just do because they always have.
A County south of us issues #4 buck, but no one there knows why, they just do there because they always have as well.
I use Federal #1 buck as my home defense load. I chose it because I found to to be very effective on targets (gel blocks using FBI barrier/penetration protocol, max spread on silhouette, etc) at ranges I believe are practical for my use.
I will never use birdshot; ugly surface wounds are just that. If the lives of myself and my family are on the line I do not want to wound the crook, I want to stop the crook as soon as possible.

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