Big bores can't shoot straight (caliber wars)


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gbran
March 29, 2004, 05:42 PM
I don't want to start another caliber war thread, but I would like to address one aspect I see come up in almost every caliber war thread. I was at another site today where someone was trying to convince themselves that .32 ACP's and .380's were sufficient for SD. Someone responded that a .32 in the head was better than a .454 in the arse. Also typical are the usual "shot placement is everything" comments. While I agree that shot placement is key, I'm tired of posts pre-assuming that larger calibers (.40+) can't achieve shot placement. I also understand that some hot calibers might not be as easy to get good followup shots, but let's be real; it ain't that bad. I'd also bet my commander sized 1911 will outshoot a Beretta Tomcat any day, first or second shot, and that has nothing to do with caliber. My Ruger Target 22 will outshoot either and that has nothing to do with caliber. Anyway......just consider this my rant. I'm tired of the the incorrect argument basis that big bores can't shoot straight.

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Langenator
March 29, 2004, 05:51 PM
Gee...if big bores can't shoot straight, why is the Contra Costa County (PRK) Board of Supervisors so worried about .50BMGs?:banghead:

cratz2
March 29, 2004, 05:52 PM
I think there are a couple issues that go into it... Chief among them is laziness and I am as guilty as anyone else... Larger guns generally take more effort to conceal and of course, they usually weigh more as a trend. Many folks don't want to put forth the effort of concealing a 5" all steel 1911 so they come up with a number of reasons why the 'cannot' rather than just admitting that they 'don't want to'.

The two skinniest guys I know that carry daily both carry all steel 1911s (one Commander and one Gumnit) and both dress in full dress clothes. When they are wearing dress slacks and a dress shirt, most can't tell they are carrying. And if Skunk can carry that Beretta of his, almost anybody can carry a full size gun... if they wanted to.

;)

Sean Smith
March 29, 2004, 05:56 PM
I'm tired of the the incorrect argument basis that big bores can't shoot straight.

It is pretty silly from an objective point of view. Some of the most accurate autoloaders in existence are .45 caliber bullseye guns. You can hunt with a .44 Magnum wheelgun out to 100 yards because the cartridge is accurate that far out. And so on.

Mikul
March 29, 2004, 05:57 PM
gbran, you took those statements all wrong.

Nobody is saying that big bores can't hit what they're aiming it. Tricked out 1911's are all the rage in IPSC and strange people shoot pieces of steel that look like animals with .454 pistols at rifle distances.

What they mean is that bullets need to go where they can do some good. This is just as true of the .32 as the .454.

MrAcheson
March 29, 2004, 06:02 PM
Someone responded that a .32 in the head was better than a .454 in the arse.

I agree with Mikul, your taking this statement the wrong way. Its not saying .454s are inaccurate, its saying hitting your target is the most important thing.

Some of the small blowback guns are amazingly accurate because of the fixed barrel. Likewise big recoilful guns can give some people accuracy troubles due to flinching or what have you. On the other hand there are lots of big bores that are great shooters. In general, how well you shoot is far more important than what you shoot. Some people are bound to shoot one thing better than the other be it big or small.

Ben Shepherd
March 29, 2004, 06:33 PM
I'd like to invite that person out for a shoot:

Conditions:
1. 100 yards to target.

2. I'll shoot my 240gr 44 handloads out of my redhawk, they can shoot whatever small pistol caliber they want, we can go glass or iron sights, I don't much care.

Bruce H
March 29, 2004, 07:08 PM
What it comes down to is what are you profecient with. If you can empty a P32 in the X ring good enough. If you can empty a 454 in the X ring good enough. The major thing is have it and know how to use it.

Preacherman
March 29, 2004, 07:28 PM
Someone responded that a .32 in the head was better than a .454 in the arse.
I don't know about that... I suspect that if I took a heavy .454 load in the backside, I'd not be capable of doing very much except rolling on the ground and screaming for a while!

:what: :uhoh:

Lancel
March 29, 2004, 07:38 PM
Funny, I've never interpreted such statements as saying little bore is a better stopper than big bore.

It's just a simple claim that little bore can be enough bore.

('course there are times when any handgun is too small.)

Larry

gbran
March 29, 2004, 08:14 PM
Funny, I've never interpreted such statements as saying little bore is a better stopper than big bore.

I never said their argument was that little bores were better stoppers. I said their typical argument was that properly placed small bore shots were better than improperly placed big bore shots. This I agree with. What I disagree with is their assumption that big bores will magically always produce poorer shot placement.

Treylis
March 29, 2004, 09:17 PM
The two skinniest guys I know that carry daily both carry all steel 1911s (one Commander and one Gumnit) and both dress in full dress clothes. When they are wearing dress slacks and a dress shirt, most can't tell they are carrying. And if Skunk can carry that Beretta of his, almost anybody can carry a full size gun... if they wanted to.

I'm somewhat skinny--6'6" and 190--and I carry a 5" 1911. Hell, I prefer the big, heavy guns.

Lancel
March 29, 2004, 10:05 PM
Right, right

Funny, I've never interpreted such statements as saying little bore is a more accurate stopper than big bore.

It's just a simple claim that little bore can be enough.

('course there are times when any handgun is too small.)

:):)
Larry

Drjones
March 30, 2004, 02:13 AM
On another site I visit, people were actually defending the choice of the .22LR for self-defense.

No, that's not a typo.:uhoh: :scrutiny:

Guess that's why people say to be wary of information garnered from the internet, huh? :rolleyes: :banghead:

Double Maduro
March 30, 2004, 02:39 AM
Dr. Jones,

If a .22 is the only gun you have or if it is the largest caliber you can shoot accurately then it is the best choice for your CCW.

Personally, I carry a Ruger P90 most of the time, strong side in a Bianchi belt slide. When the weather is really warm and my clothing is skimpier I will carry a 2" .357 or a Makarov. I don't feel as comfortable with these as with the .45 but it is better than not carrying. I am just as proficient with them but prefer the .45.

I believe that the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately is your best choice for personal defence.

DM

Drjones
March 30, 2004, 02:46 AM
If a .22 is the only gun you have or if it is the largest caliber you can shoot accurately then it is the best choice for your CCW.

1) If a .22 is the only gun you have, you need to get another gun.

2) If .22 is the largest caliber you can shoot accurately, you simply are not practicing enough. Get to the range more. (This of course is barring physical handicaps such as arthritis, etc.)

Double Maduro
March 30, 2004, 03:48 AM
Drjones.

____________________________________________________________

1) If a .22 is the only gun you have, you need to get another gun.

2) If .22 is the largest caliber you can shoot accurately, you simply are not practicing enough. Get to the range more. (This of course is barring physical handicaps such as arthritis, etc.)

____________________________________________________________


I also agree with both of these.

DM

cracked butt
March 30, 2004, 06:18 AM
I dunno- its probably not necessary in theory, but does anyone practice drawing with their weak hand and doubletapping with a .454?
:D

What if you are sitting in a car, or in a booth at a McChokenadPuke or some awkward situation where you cannot easily draw the 1911 because of the way you carry it? A little .380 in the jacket pocket might come to the hand much quicker.

Lone_Gunman
March 30, 2004, 07:25 AM
Someone responded that a .32 in the head was better than a .454 in the arse.

I am not sure how accurate that statement is, unless the 454 wound was strictly a buttock wound.

Ky Larry
March 30, 2004, 10:09 AM
So, what we're all trying to agree on is : "The shooter is more important than the gun-load-caliber."

pax
March 30, 2004, 11:14 AM
Somewhere around here, Oleg has a poster he made which reads, "A .22 in hand is better than a .44 in the safe ... Carry!"

My sentiments exactly.

That said, for my personal peace of mind, nothing smaller than a .380 will do (this despite the fact that I occasionally carry a .32, when I can't carry a gun).

pax

Yowza
March 30, 2004, 05:14 PM
I recently took a CCW class recently and one of my classmates was shooting a Colt Mustang .380 and had some difficulty at 10 and 15 yards.

That being said, I would agree that even a .32 is an adequate defensive caliber if your shot placement is excellent, and it's certainly better than nothing. I have a .32ACP but I plan to carry a .45 when I get my license.

Rick

grnzbra
March 30, 2004, 05:25 PM
When someone is shooting at you and you are running (I said running, not some IPSC shuffle) to your right and he's running to your left, shot placement is going to go down hill real fast. In that case I want the biggest most powerful bullet hitting whatever part of his body I'm lucky enough to connect with.

Hook
March 30, 2004, 05:40 PM
Some people say that a smaller caliber lets them shoot faster and get more rounds off than they can with a larger caliber and that the end results are the same.
The only problem comes when your sitting in front of a jury (and you will be). They might find it hard to believe that you only wanted to "stop the threat" when the body has 10 rounds pumped into it.
That's when the perp suddenly becomes the victim.


Hook

Majic
March 31, 2004, 02:37 AM
What I disagree with is their assumption that big bores will magically always produce poorer shot placement.
The real problem is in people assuming something. As you can see you are just as guilty. You read their responces and assumed your own interpetation.

KaceCoyote
March 31, 2004, 03:11 AM
This is turning into a 9mm vrs .45 fight I can smell it so I'll say this.

A firearm, in any form is a dangerous weapon. If the biggest firearm you are comfortable with is a .25 Auto..then carry it and be comfortable. If you personally, feel insecure with anything less than a magnum load then by all means carry a Magnum. I've always thought that -COMFORT- was the single most important human factor coming to accuracy. You should carry, what you are most comfortable with at all times. If you have a thing for .380s but are terrified of it not doing the job, so you strap a .45 that scares you what good is that.

I would rather have a .380 I was comfortable and accurate with, than a .25 or a 10mm that I wasnt. Irreguardless of stopping power or followup speed. I know, that I am most likely to do MY job when I'm comfortable. A firearm, during the moments before and during the critical moments should be more than just a tool made's steel. it should be an extension of flesh and bone. To me, A .22LR Ruger in the hands of a competent and accurate shooter who under pressure can make the gold is effective. A person with a Colt Delta Elite in 10mm that'll knock the wind out've a buck at fifty paces or a .44 magnum, who can use his firearm while under pressure to make the gold is effective. Stopping power is important, its -VERY- important. However you cant STOP anything, unless you HIT something first. Two in the chest from pretty much any modern CCW will at the very least stop the attack or slow the opponent down(I hope) to allow the shooter to either make a safe escape, go for empty, or choose for -WHATEVER- reason to close and move to a blade. Hefting a bigger sword does NOT mean you can win swordfights. Hefting a sword which you can use comfortably and swiftly however, DOES win swordfights.

Should somone who can only shoot a .25 auto eventually try and work themselves to a larger caliber? of course. I believe there are 4 ideal calibers for CCW, barring hot weather carry. 9mm, .40S&W, .45 and .357(.44 scares me personally) If you cant shoot those four or five or whatever...then dont. I'd rather land a small blow..than no blow wouldnt you?


Fight back or die trying.

Eskimo Jim
March 31, 2004, 09:44 AM
without getting into the caliber war of which is better, small caliber vs large caliber and platform I'd like to make the following comments for consideration:

1) Skill with any firearm is the most important requirement for successful concealed carry. The mitigation of problems such as fumbling with safety controls, equipment failures, reloading quickly etc is paramount. The ability to consistantly shoot the handgun accurately is imperative. Since skill isn't the issue here, I'll move on.

2) There are a variety of firearm platforms to meet a variety of needs. There are 'full' size autos and revolvers that handle large cartridges (45acp, 40S&W, 9mm, 38 special, 357 magnum, 44 special, 44magnum etc) The advantages of a large sized handgun shooting a large caliber round is that typically the firearm is easier to shoot since its mass helps resist recoil, thus making follow up shots easier/quicker. The advantages of the larger caliber is that these cartridges gernally cause more dammage to the goblin trying to hurt you. Disadvantage: the large size can make concealment harder for some people

3) Small/light firearm shooting large caliber -this typically is a J frame sized revolver, SP101 sized, small Glock, some Kel Tecs(not completely familar with their product line). Advantages a) these firearms are easier to conceal or are more pleasant to carry due to weight b) these still fire a large caliber cartridge which will do quite a bit of damage to a goblin. Disadvantages: these firearms are typically less enjoyable to shoot and do take a bit more practice than a full sized firearm.

4) small/light firearm shooting a smaller caliber (22lr, 22mag, 25acp, 32acp, 380acp, 9mm?, 38 special) The advantages to these firearms is that they are easier to conceal due to their generally smaller size and lighter weight. Disadvantages these cartridges are smaller thus generally speaking must rely on bullet design and shot placement to be more affective than their larger sized cousin cartridges.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each and every firearm for purposes of concealed carry. The bottom line is that in order to make a good or acceptable decision on which firearm to carry concealed, the advanatages of each firearm must be carefully weighed against the firearm's disadvantages. Sure the new S&W X frame in .500 S&W would have tremendous stopping power to take the fight out of an assailant however, I don't think that I could successfully conceal one without a large coat of some type which doesn't fit my lifestyle also, it would take me quite while to become proficient with this large cartridge. On the other hand, a small 22lr sure is handy to conceal, however, it is likely that multiple wounds caused by a 22lr will not stop an assailent.

Ask yourself this, would you rather take one 45acp round to the arm or take 3 22lr shots to the center of mass? I wouldn't want to take either but forced to take a choice, I'd rather the 45 to the arm because I'm more likely to survive. Now, train and become truly proficient with a 45acp, that would certainly be a formidable weapon system. Combine your proficiency with the 22 and the heavy hitting 45acp, change your wardrobe to some degree to conceal a 1911, Sig 220 etc, and you'll have a fantastic self defense platform in place.

Each person must make the decision for themselves on what trade offs they are willing to make. Will a person alter their dress to carry a larger sized firearm? When there are situations when this is not possible, will they choose a smaller sized firearm that they are proficient with? Most people could successfully conceal a full sized revolver (probably the most difficult item to conceal) when wearing a suit or a jacket over their clothes. Not everyone wears a suit or jacket to work each day. Thankfully firearm manufacturers have given us options to choose when the ideal situation isn't available to us.

The wisest comment that I have heard about choosing a concealed carry firearm is to carry the largest caliber and largest sized firearm that you are proficient with and can comfortably conceal.

I welcome comments and questions. I hope this helps someone.

-Jim

Sean Smith
March 31, 2004, 02:46 PM
What I disagree with is their assumption that big bores will magically always produce poorer shot placement.

The real problem is in people assuming something. As you can see you are just as guilty. You read their responces and assumed your own interpetation.

No, you are assuming that he has never heard that sort of argument. How do you know that? People DO make statements like that with a fair amount of regularity. Well, dumb people do anyway.. Heck, I had a friend (a bullseye shooter at the time) get told by some maroon that the .44 Magnum my friend was shooting couldn't hit the broad side of a barn because it was too powerful. This as he was whacking things with it 100 yards away... :rolleyes:

Majic
March 31, 2004, 10:35 PM
People DO make statements like that with a fair amount of regularity.
People say that big bores always make poorer shot placement, not they assume they do. The assumption is printed in his post.

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