[nsf003]

I mean people like:

Charles Askins
Louis Awerbuck
Massad Ayoob
Jim Cirillo
Jeff Cooper
Chic Gaylord
Jim Grover
Gila Hayes
Bill Jordan
Walt Rauch
Clint Smith
Gabe Suarez

What can they do that makes them so famous. I have never heard of about 75% of them.

nsf

[DeltaElite]

Well, my choice, Jim Cirillo, was in the NYPD stakeout squad and survived several 17 gun battles up close and personal.
Here is some info on him.
He has been there and done that, that is why I would choose him.
Jim Cirillo (http://www.firearmsacademy.com/cirillo.htm)

Some of the people on the list have never been in a gun battle and therefore have not proven themselves to be a good partner.

[Dave Markowitz]

Among other things, Walt Rauch was in the US Secret Service Presidential Protection Detail and the Phila. PD felony warrant squad.

[Hkmp5sd]

Massad Ayoob is a LEO and owner/instructor of the Lethal Force Institute (http://www.ayoob.com/) and a writer are many firearm and self-defense articles. (http://www.backwoodshome.com/ayoob_index.html) He is also an expert witness in firearm cases and makes firearm training videos. If you graduate from LFI and are later involved in a shooting, he will testify on your behalf at no charge.

Jeff Cooper is a former Marine that began the combat/practical shooting (http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/cooper.htm) craze as well as an author of several firearm commentaries. (http://www.dvc.org.uk/~johnny/jeff/)

Bill Jordan was a Border Agent and survived many shootouts. He was instrumental in the creation of the S&W Model 19 and authored the classic book "No Second Place Winner" (http://www.clede.com/Memory/obitbjor.htm) .

[DeltaElite]

Yanno, after checking the list over again, I would gladly fight with most of them, the only ones I am not sure of are the ones that I honestly don't know.

Jim Cirillo is still my favorite. He used to make up special ammo that "gripped" the human skull when it hit, rather than sliding off, as the round nose bullets of his day did.
Now that is my kind of gunfighter. :D

[Leadbutt]

The only one I would go with is Mr. Askins,I was taught a little by that man,and he had no quams about shootingthe BG's he proved it in the Border Patrol and Vietnam

[Lone Star]

I hope I may respectfully suggest that if anyone here hasn't heard of ALL these people, he hasn't been reading enough about guns, or noting the bylines in the shooting magazines.

Col. Askins and Chic Gaylord, the innovative holster maker, may be before some members' time, but seeking out the classical authorities is well worth the effort.

Some of these people operate shooting schools, and I don't know how quick they'd be to pull the trigger on a human target, no matter how many paper ones they've shot. I'd feel pretty sure with Askins and Cooper and Jordan. I mean no disrespect to the others; I just don't know them or have a feel for how steadfast and competent they'd be in a fight. Cirillo probably killed more men than any other gun authority, save Askins. I say, "probably" because Jordan was a combat Marine officer assigned to clean Japs out of caves on Pacific islands as well as a Border Patrolman, and I don't think he ever said how many enemy soldiers (or smugglers, etc.) he shot. I saw
him draw and shoot, though, and he was incredibly fast and accurate.

Lone Star
P.S. Had I made out the list, I'd have added the late Col. Rex Applegate to it, as he was when he made forays across the English Channel on behalf of the OSS in WW II. He is also known to have shot a Mexican trying to kill him after the war. And, come to think of it, I think Audie Murphy should be on the short list of men who've used firearms very effectively. He was one actor whom I'd NOT have wanted to be seriously upset with me. He killed at least 250 Germans while winning all those medals...

[Johnny Guest]

Charles Askins was perhaps the most cold blooded of those listed. In his book, Unrepentant Sinner, he writes proudly of having the first human kill with the .44 magnum, a Viet Minh guerilla in Indochina. He is said to have been a VERY hard drinker, and while in his cups, boasted at length of having killed 17 men. Not really a genteel type person, but, certainly, you wouldn't have to worry about him freezing up and being unable to pull the trigger.

Jeff Cooper prevailed in three man-to-man gunfights, according to his biography, The Soul and the Spirit, written by his daughter Lindy Wisdom. Two were one-on-one with Japanese military personnel, one with a Colt Peacemaker and one with a 1911. Post war, while on unspecified government business, he and an associate were ambushed by a submachine gunner. When it ran dry, Cooper finished the matter with a .45 auto. He never wrote particulars of his personal combats, and, in person, refers only obliquely to, "In my limited experience . . . ."

Articles in the gun magazines used to show authorship by "Jim Grover," complete with quotation marks. This indicates that he WANTED us to know this was a nom de plume, and he didn't want his true identity known. There could be valid reasons for this, of course, and he might be a bona fide man killer, for all I know. My working presumption is that any person who hides behind a mask of any kind has questionable credibility. I note that later works omit the quotation marks.

Jim Cirillo's feats as a shooter are well documented, both on the street and in competition. In his book--sorry, the name escapes me--he describes the design of his "pin grabber" loads, as being especially for bowling pin shots. He does not mention the other, obvious, application himself, in that book.

Agree with Lone Star about Rex Applegate and Audie Murphy, and I think I'd add "Jelly" Brice as well.

Massad Ayoob writes some interesting stories about other people.

Best,
Johnny

[El Tejon]

Johnny, Kelly has been out of the closet for some time now on his nom de plume hasn't he? We're "clear" to talk about him, right?

Anywho, since no one has mentioned the last two on your list: Clinton Smith served two tours in the USMC in Vietnam, he returned to Fort Wayne, Indiana to serve 8 years in the Allen County Sheriff's Department as patrol officer, SRT member, and head of the FTU. Later became ramrod at API and then worked for Heckler & Koch in the early `80s. In the early `90s he became the director/spokesman of Thunder Ranch, Inc. Soon to resign and move West now that things are in place for his own shoppe (we'll miss you, sir). And is now a gun writer.

Gabe Suarez. SoCal Sheriff's deputy, instructor at Orange and Gray Gunsite, Frontsight, and has associated with other instructors. Author of several outstanding books.

Oh, forgot, no one mentioned Louis (Lew-ee--no one calls him Lewis, except Col. Cooper) Awerbuck. For real commando from Suid Afrika. Took over ramrod duties at API and is now back at Gunsite III. Has Yavapai Firearms Academy, Ltd. which is on the road near you. Firearms instructor without peer. Nicknamed "Yoda" by some API instructors, quiet, but deadly. Gun writer and author of several books and video tapes.

All of the above have fighting with firearms experience. All are excellent instructors with their own personalities. If they are "famous" then it is based on their reputations, which I believe, are warranted. YMMV.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All,

My choice, Gabe Suarez is a veteran full-time police
officer in Southern California; and the author of the book
entitled The Tactical Pistol. With the foreword written
by Mr. Jeff Cooper, the book covers advanced gunfighting concepts and techniques. Unlike many combat shooting
instructor's and writer's; Gabriel Suarez knows what its
like to have someone shooting back at him!

Chapter's in his book include:

a) The Dynamics Of A Gunfight
b) The Presentation
c) Training The Startle Response
d) Clearing Pistol Malfunctions
e) The Rules Of Close Quarters Combat
f) Cover and Concealment
g) Wounded Shooter Techniques
h) One Against Many: Dealing With Multiple Adversaries
i) Tactical Movement
j) Indoor Search Tactics
k) Tactical Considerations In Vechiles

and many other chapters, to numerous to mention!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Sven]

Just got Gabe Suarez's books yesterday - along with a few of Cooper's volumes.

What about Chuck Taylor - did he have real world experience?

[El Tejon]

Sven, with the Danger Rangers in Vietnam and the Christians in Central America and elsewhere.

[El Tejon]

Sven, oh, yeah, "did" should be "does." He's still around and moving a lot better than I thought he would. (Fell out during a night jump at Fort Bragg [part of his i.c. services--jump with Danger Rangers] and pinballed down the pines). The gun shoppe rumors here in Yankeeland had him bed-ridden.

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

Ditto on what DeltaElite said on why I picked Jim Cirillo.

[Lone Star]

On summer day in 1979, I was having lunch with Col. Askins, in a public room in a major hotel. He was openly volunteering to smuggle arms to what was then white-ruled Rhodesia, now socialist Zimbabwe, ruled by President-For-Life Robert Mugabe.

I admired his sentiments, but thought his discretion questionable. One thing you could say for Askins, he didn't care who heard what he thought. He was indeed an "Unrepentant Sinner". But he'd pull a trigger on a human for sure. Sometimes, it's useful to know that the person backing you will do that and not worry about having to wring his hands in emotional anguish afterward, or seek psychological counseling.

Lone Star

[Croyance]

IIRC, Col. Askins 17 killed did not include blacks or mexicans. In boasting of killing 17 men he meant white men.

[Leadbutt]

That is true about the Col. he didn't give two red cents for the Mexicans or blacks,he once told my father if he had counted both those and a few Indains it would go over 25 men and then he just dropped it.

If you have ever looked a corba in the eyes, you have seen death,
the Col had the same look. but he was a gentleman around the women and would not take kindly to those who weren't

[Barney]

Hkmp5sd: I don't know where you received your information but Bill Jordan was NEVER in a gunfight!!

Jordan did two significant things with a handgun.
1. He was able to draw one fast.

2. He killed a fellow officer in a Border Patrol station while he was on duty. He had been demonstrating his fast draw to several officers. When the demo was over he reloaded his weapon, and placed the weapon back into his holster. The other officers left the room. Sometime later one of them came back, and asked him to show the draw again...as a reaction he drew, and the shot went through the wall and killed a fellow officer in the next room.

This was common knowledge among many BP officers in the 60's and early 70's, one of which I was. I knew this story before I met Jordan at Jim Clark's house in 1978 in Keithville, LA. Upon meeting him, Jim Clark told Jordan that I was ex-Border Patrol. Within five minutes Jordan related the story to me personally. He was a nice man. I liked him, and I felt he carried this burden about accidently killing a fellow officer and was ashamed of it. It bothered him greatly. Many BP officers did not like him for it. I never held it against him. He was not a braggard and had a very easy going personality. He was very good with a handgun and an interesting writer, BUT...he was never in a shootout!

Regards to all: Barney

[DeltaElite]

If they haven't been in a shootout, then it is all theory to them and I would prefer someone else on my side.
That is why I picked Jim Cirillo. He has been there 17 times, I have faith he would again and survive again.

I see them at work, cops that you don't believe would pull the trigger and those that you know would.
It is sad that we are hiring people that won't do the job in the extreme, but we get some very odd folks in Le nowadays.

[Barney]

I agree with you. But they have always gotten a few odd people in LE. We had a few when I was there. Some of them today though have gone a little too far using their weapons. We recently had a Seattle Cop shoot a person running away from an attempted robbery at an ATM machine one night. He was carrying a paint gun. Naturally he could not shoot anything with it but the cop shot him as he was running away. Supposedly because a judge had ruled you can shoot a fleeing felon? I wasn't taught that was when you use a gun. We had other criteria. Anyway...Best to you and be careful Barney

[Carbon_15]

Cirillo did some interesting bullet design..when He wasn't getting into gunfights
http://www.villagemetalworks.com/ssb.htm

[ahenry]

Barney,

You are telling us that you personally spoke with Bill Jordan and he personally told you that he shot and killed a fellow officer? I’m not challenging you, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you’re saying.


BTW, what years were you an agent? You might have overlapped my grandfather at some stations as he was in up till about the early 70's.

[Barney]

That is what I am telling you. I knew before he told me. Not everyone in the Patrol knew it but I did. He told me sitting in Jim Clark's living room of his log house he built in Keithville, LA in the summer of 1977 or 78, I am not sure of the year.
I don't tell this story to make Jordan sound bad. He was a good man. When you talk to someone and watch their body language and listen to their voice you know if they are sincere. When he told me the story with Jim Clark sitting there I watched him closely. I knew he carried this terrible thing he had done on his mind. Perhaps he thought I was going to ask him about it, and he figured he would tell me first. We had just talked about men we knew in the Patrol. We both had shot on the BP's National Pistol Team. He probably thought I had heard about it. He said he would carry the thought of it to his grave which is understandable. It was a terrible mistake, but I never held it against him and still don't. I don't like misinformation. I have spoken before thinking I knew what I was talking about only to find out I did not. You can get a lot of infomation off of the internet. Most people mean well, they just are wrong occasionally, myself included. The man is dead but I don't think he would have let someone think he had been in a lot of gunfights. He just wasn't that kinda man. He was honest and humble. He also had the biggest hands of any man I ever shook with. Let's let it rest! Barney... Doyle Stevens, The Chief Patrol Agent of the Marfa Sector swore me in April 19th, 1970 in Marfa, Texas. I completed the BP Academy on August 11th, 1970 in Los Fresnos, Texas with the 96th session. It was the last class of men that were called Patrol Inspectors and the first class that were called Patrol Agents. I was stationed in a line station located in the Marfa Sector. A town of about a 1000 people called Sanderson. There were 7 officers there. Joe Pagitt was the Senior. I left the Patrol in May of 1977, and later was an Immigration Inspector at Calexico, California. I made tracks with some good men but I am glad I got away from it. It ain't like it use to be!

[ahenry]

I think you got the wrong impression, that I was challenging your credibility. I’m not challenging your character, nor did I think you were trying to make Bill Jordan sound like a bad man. The only reason I restated what you said was ‘cause I have found things can get confused when the sole means of communication was the written word. I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page as you. No offense meant.

I’ll have to ask my grandfather, but I don’t believe he was ever stationed anywhere in the Marfa sector. He started out in the south (not sure all the stations, but I know he hit Laredo, McAllen, and Corpus) then did a lot of work up north for a while after he got some seniority. He came back to S.A. and retired there right about the time you would have come in. I’m not positive of the actual dates but I know it was right around then. BTW, since you mentioned the BP pistol team, did you know a gentleman by the name of Ed Duda? Shoot me a PM if you’re so inclined...


Again, sorry to have come across the wrong way. I wasn't challenging you, just making sure I "heard" you right.

[Tom C.]

Haven't heard much from anyone about Audie Murphy. You want to talk about someone who has been there. As a combat infantry man in WWI he saw lots of action. He received the Medal of Honor for stopping a German attack with a M-2 .50cal from the top of a burning tank. He was the most highly decorated soldier of WWII.
When he got into the movie business in the 50's, he got into a discussion with one of the fast draw actors. Murphy wasn't that fast with his draw. After taking some crap from the other actor, Murphy challenged him to load the guns with real bullets and try it. No one was willing to try with someone who had really been there.

[Beorn]

I was talking about this to my father-in-law just last Sunday. We had just finished a morning at the range and were wondering who we'd want to "back us up." Audie Murphy was his first choice. Not because he was a Medal of Honor Winner, not because he was good with a tank-mounted .50 machine gun.

Because he was determined to get out alive. And if he wasn't going to get out alive, then he was going to wreak as much havoc on the enemy as possible.

That being said, I must concur with my father-in-law.

And personally, I'd like to have my father-in-law (a retired Airborne Major) and my own dad (an ex-Navy SEAL) with me. Everyone I know who's older than me could probably kick my ***. I'm just glad they're on my side.:D

[seeker_two]

Participated in a gunfight against evildoers, prevailed, and taught others how to as well.

Good enough for me...:D

[Lone Star]

Barney-

I appreciate your mentioning this about Jordan. Several years before he quit commercial writing, Askins alluded to a famous former Border Patrolman who'd never shot anyone but a fellow officer. I suspected that it was Jordan, but it could have been Skeeter Skelton, or perhaps someone whose name didn't come to mind.

I was too embarrassed to ask Bill, and not at all sure he'd admit to it, so it's good to have that cleared up. I think Skelton may have killed a person or two. I barely knew him, but had the impression that he would, if need be.

This doesn't address Jordan's Marine service. Do you know if he killed any Japanese? Another writer (maybe Skelton) said that he did, but he may have been guessing.

Bill Jordan didn't just draw fast; he could hit what he shot at. So could Audie Murphy, who was once accused of taking a shot at another Hollywood personality with whom he wasn't getting along too well. Murphy told the judge that if he'd shot at that man, he would be dead. I believe it.

Lone Star

[Barney]

Lone Star: I don't know if Jordan killed any Japanese. The earlier comments were about gunfighting/shootouts. What someone did in a war doesn't have anything to do with the earlier comment.

IMO there is too much made out of this gunfight/shootout stuff today to the civilian market. It sells magazines, books, and apparently some people are making money having classes/training courses, etc. for the average guy/gal. I don't keep up with it because I think it is so much nonsense.

Any Law Enforcement Officer who has his head screwed on right DOES NOT want to use his weapon!!! Not withstanding the frightening experience of someone trying to kill you and then killing them or vice a versa, the paper work, and other hoops he would have to jump through after he did is enough to make him give very serious thought before hand on when he would use his weapon. The same philosophy should apply to civillians with Concealed Weapons Permits also! Listening to what the so called "experts" say should be taken with a grain of salt...if taken at all. Listen to your own conscience!

I could go on about this subject at length but I will get off the soapbox.

[El Tejon]

Barney, amen, it is as if Problem #2 does not exist!

[ahenry]

Ah, the almighty "problem #2" rears its ugly head. Spoken like a true lawyer... :rolleyes:



Personally I concern myself with doing what is right but then again, I’m not a lawyer (shameless did at el tejon :p ).

[Leadbutt]

Barney I don't tend to agree with you about combat expercience,it has been mine that those who have been in a shooting combat sit rep are better at knowing when to pull then trigger.

Jordan may have not killed any in the line of duty so to speak but when he was in the Marines he spend some time in cleaning out caves of japs and was very good at it,according to an uncle of mine

[Barney]

OK.

[El Tejon]

Come now, ahenry, the rootin', tootin' bullpuckey of the gun rags is a little overbearing and is passed off as "doing right." Indeed, the problem with Problem #2 is that even if you "do right" you may still be in trouble on a number of different fronts.

Of course, I may be overly sensitive as I see Problem #2 a lot at work or I do not believe the rubbish of the gun rags or I just may be an overly educated damn Yankee who does not root or toot.:D

[ahenry]

Indeed, the problem with Problem #2 is that even if you "do right" you may still be in trouble on a number of different fronts. Perhaps.* Nevertheless, a man has to decide if he is more concerned with doing the right thing or if he is more concerned with “being comfortable” or not facing any difficulties. Obviously I’ve made my choice. I’ll let you know in another 50 or so years if it was the wrong one.


Of course, I may be overly sensitive as I see Problem #2 a lot at work or I do not believe the rubbish of the gun rags or I just may be an overly educated damn Yankee who does not root or toot. Hmmm. I’d wager yes to the first and the last. ;) I don’t read the gun rags myself so I couldn’t say if they’re ever right or not but I’d beg you’re right that they never are.


* I challenge you to show me (either PM or on this board) an instance of a person that clearly did “what was right”, yet still was punished in court. I do believe too much is made of this.