Pistols - California Editions UGH!


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Life During Wartime
January 2, 2014, 04:54 AM
Sorry for this being such a long read but help is appreciated :)

So I have been looking a lot more at pistols lately at gunstores and such and I have come across a few situations.
Here is one eample situation:
Let's say I wanted to buy a Glock 17 as aproved by the CA DOJ. Very surprisingly almost every model is on there except for Gen 4s and American mades. Due to it being Calif, I would get a 10 round mag instead of the standard 17. The problem is, is there any change to the gun that allows it to shoot only 10 round mags? So for instance let's say I moved out of state or visited my grandpa in AZ, could I use decent sized magazines or would they not work

The other big problem is Loaded Chamber Indicators. Sig has decided to send pistols with these to Ca. On Ruger's I don't mind them as they tend to follow the lines of the Sr series. But on Sigs they are butt ugly and obviously serve very little purpose (at least imo) So, let's say I wanted to buy a Sig but hate that slide. Can I buy a used regular slide and it be legal?

The other thing is the ridiculous Roster itself. According to CA Law, for instance, a 1911 parkerized is a different pistol than the same model in stainless. And only some calibers of the same pistol get on the list. A famous eample is the Desert Eagle. You can only get the 44 mag version. But I have personally seen 50 Ae shells at the range and people shooting Desert Eagles. Can you change the slide and it stay the same gun? Like the SIG p250. You can only get the subcompact in 9mm. The whole platform is modular, so I can buy a full size 45 kit right?
Or does my logic make too much sense for this state?:neener:

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Life During Wartime
January 2, 2014, 05:01 AM
About the Loaded Chamber Indicators, I want to clarify that I meant the Loaded When Up style. I hate those most of the time

HexHead
January 2, 2014, 07:56 AM
The Gen4 Glock won't pass because before it was introduced, CA added the very noticeable LCI and magazine disconnect requirements to get on their "safe gun" list. I'm guessing Glock will continue to offer the Gen3 as long as CA remains in the Union, or it's listing on the list expires. Yes, they have expiration dates.

There is nothing inside a Glock preventing you from using standard or extended capacity (Happy Stick) magazines in them. Just CA's stupid laws about possessing them.

hentown
January 2, 2014, 08:26 AM
Americans, California Editions...Ugh! :evil:*













*Guess I should have said, "So-called Americans":

bds
January 2, 2014, 08:51 AM
You can use the Single Shot Exemption (SSE) process to buy new pistols not on the California approved roster of guns. This thread explains the process in detail with a list of participating vendors - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692

You can also transfer out of state off-roster pistols between immediate family members (parent to child/child to parent/etc.) using Intra-familial Handgun Transaction process. Here's the DOJ form - http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf

You can purchase used off-roster pistols previously registered in California (one example: LEO can purchase off-roster pistols, register the pistols in California and then sell the pistol).

breakingcontact
January 2, 2014, 09:14 AM
Glad im reading this from Free America.

Quiet
January 2, 2014, 10:18 AM
CA's unsafe handgun laws, which created the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, are a prime example of what happens when gun owners do not stand united and only look out for their own special interest.

When the legislation was being decided upon, several "pro-gun" groups switched from opposing it to supporting it once they were able to obtain exemptions for their groups.
Example... cowboy action shooting groups got a single-action revolver exemption to the laws and went from opposing the legislation to supporting it. They also supported the large capacity magazine ban, which got them exemptions for tubular magazines on lever-action firearms.

Quiet
January 2, 2014, 10:24 AM
Now that CA Attorney General Kamala Harris has certified microstamping technology, no non-exempt handgun will be added to the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. Hence forth it is creating a defacto ban on handguns.

The Calguns Foundation (CGF) and Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) currently have a lawsuit (Peņa v. Cid) in the Federal court system challenging the legality of CA's unsafe handgun laws.

danez71
January 2, 2014, 12:49 PM
Sorry for this being such a long read but help is appreciated :)

So I have been looking a lot more at pistols lately at gunstores and such and I have come across a few situations.
Here is one eample situation:

Let's say I wanted to buy a Glock 17 as aproved by the CA DOJ. Very surprisingly almost every model is on there except for Gen 4s and American mades. Due to it being Calif, I would get a 10 round mag instead of the standard 17. The problem is, is there any change to the gun that allows it to shoot only 10 round mags? So for instance let's say I moved out of state or visited my grandpa in AZ, could I use decent sized magazines or would they not work:

I haven't seen a single design change for CA compliant that wont allow a regular capacity mag work in it.




The other big problem is Loaded Chamber Indicators. Sig has decided to send pistols with these to Ca. On Ruger's I don't mind them as they tend to follow the lines of the Sr series. But on Sigs they are butt ugly and obviously serve very little purpose (at least imo) So, let's say I wanted to buy a Sig but hate that slide. Can I buy a used regular slide and it be legal?

It would still be legal. I suppose in theory that if there was a NG in CA after having replaced the slide with a non-Chamber indicator version that a DA would go after the "He willfully defeated the safety feature of the gun" angle.



The other thing is the ridiculous Roster itself. According to CA Law, for instance, a 1911 parkerized is a different pistol than the same model in stainless. And only some calibers of the same pistol get on the list. A famous eample is the Desert Eagle. You can only get the 44 mag version. But I have personally seen 50 Ae shells at the range and people shooting Desert Eagles. Can you change the slide and it stay the same gun? Like the SIG p250. You can only get the subcompact in 9mm. The whole platform is modular, so I can buy a full size 45 kit right?
Or does my logic make too much sense for this state?:neener:


Yes. The CA roaster doesn't make much sense at all.

Life During Wartime
January 2, 2014, 07:20 PM
Wait What NOW!
Pistols Ban?
:cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:
Next year is when I can buy a handgun but all of them expire this year.
Is this true that they will not make microstamped guns?

9mmepiphany
January 2, 2014, 11:29 PM
Don't panic, the guns are renewed on the roster by the manufacturers if they want to keep selling them in the state. A couples of manufacturers even have models in production only for CA...SIG (220ST, 226ST) and Dan Wesson (CBOB, PM7)

Micro stamping was actually passed under the last governor, but it hasn't been put into effect for lack of available ability/technology.

Once you legally own a handgun in the state, you can modify it however you'd like as long as it doesn't become otherwise illegal (Select fire/SBR/foregrip/threaded barrel/etc.)

Life During Wartime
January 6, 2014, 11:03 AM
Thank you 9mm, I feel better now :)

I am very curious as to this Single Shot Exemption as to how much it actually costs and how its actually done. I looked at the link but I didnt quite understand it

Life During Wartime
January 6, 2014, 11:05 AM
I am also interested in the Intra Familial Form as I have a grandfather who lives in AZ. If he were for instance to buy a pistol for us, transfer it to my mom who would then transfer to me, is that legal or is that a straw purchase

Gordon
January 6, 2014, 11:57 AM
micro stamping is now required and nobody does i:uhoh:t :cuss:
the reason each finish or grip optionreqires resertify is $$$$$$ to fund calif nastiness :fire::fire:

Quiet
January 6, 2014, 01:18 PM
I am also interested in the Intra Familial Form as I have a grandfather who lives in AZ. If he were for instance to buy a pistol for us, transfer it to my mom who would then transfer to me, is that legal or is that a straw purchase

In order to comply with Federal laws, the firearm needs to be transferred through a CA FFL dealer.

The Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction form is only legal use when all the parties involved are CA residents. Using it to transfer a firearm across state lines, complies with CA state laws but violates Federal laws and documents that multiple Federal felonies have been committed.

Intra-Familial gifts are exempt from the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.
Therefore, an out-of-state intra-familial gift of a handgun not on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale can be transferred to a non-exempt person via the intra-familial exemption.
The issue with this is finding a CA FFL dealer that knows about this exemption (not all of them do) and does not charge too much to facilitate this type of transfer (under CA laws, they can legally charge any amount of money to do it).

So, in your case (grandfather to you)...
1. Find a CA FFL dealer that knows about out-of-state intra-familial gift transfers.
2. Grandfather ships firearm to that CA FFL dealer.
3. That CA FFL dealer transfers (4473/DROS/10 day wait) the firearm to you.

9mmepiphany
January 6, 2014, 01:37 PM
I am very curious as to this Single Shot Exemption as to how much it actually costs and how its actually done. I looked at the link but I didnt quite understand it
I've seen prices quoted anywhere from $50-$450 depending on your level of paranoia and the rarity of the conversion parts.

I'm not sure I understand your confusion. The SSE is converting a semi-auto pistol to a single-shot pistol to make it conform to the required description for import for purchase, from an FFL, in the state. How that conversion is performed depends on the platform being converted and on how the party converting the pistol chooses how to do it. There isn't a proscribed method, there is a legal configuration which needs to be met.

There are also Single Action Pistol exemptions and Olympic Competition Pistol exemptions.

Potatohead
January 6, 2014, 01:42 PM
Glad im reading this from Free America.
Goodness, me too. That is insane. Theyll let you have one pistol but not another..I dont get it.

Im glad to be down in Dixie. I was at the gas station Friday and the clerk saw a flash of my pistol in the holster. I said "oh my bad, i mean to keep that covered". She told me she was glad to have legal folks in there carrying..makes her feel safer.

If only more had her attitude...many seem to around here.

9mmepiphany
January 6, 2014, 01:48 PM
I am also interested in the Intra Familial Form as I have a grandfather who lives in AZ. If he were for instance to buy a pistol for us...
Bear in mind that this is an Intra-Familial transfer. We're talking about gifts from one family member to another as long as they follow a direct blood line...grandparent > parent > child; notice that siblings and spouses are not included in this line

Quiet
January 6, 2014, 07:57 PM
FYI.
As of 01-01-2014, the Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf) is no longer valid.

It has been replaced with a new form. Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction (http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf?)
New form also covers the reporting of long guns, which is required by CA laws starting 01-01-2014.

It is still a violation of Federal laws to use the form to transfer a firearm across state lines.

Frank Ettin
January 20, 2014, 08:15 AM
I am also interested in the Intra Familial Form as I have a grandfather who lives in AZ....The intrafamilial transfer form is only useable when both the transferor and transferee are residents of California.

Under federal law, a transfer of a handgun from a resident of one State to a resident of another needs to go through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. There's no exception under federal law for transfers between family members.

CA Raider
January 20, 2014, 09:50 AM
after going thru a very painful experience - all can tell you is DON'T try to buy guns from Web sites if you live in California. There is not much point looking at For Sale adds from other parts of the USA, or even Web pages of gun makers. It is just too difficult to tell what option is legit in California and what is not. My suggestion is to find a CA dealer you like and trust, then go down and take a look at the inventory they already have on their shelves, and buy from there.

A little while back I tried to buy a CZ in 9mm. We're not talking fancy here - a basic CZ-75B in 9mm. The whole "buy" was a complete fail because of CA regulations. Briefly what happened was this: I couldn't find a CA dealer with a CZ-75B, found one out-of-state, asked them to check that the CZ model was CA compliant, they did, I bought the gun and they shipped it, it got to the local dealer in CA, the CA dealer said "No way" this gun is not CA compliant, I said "why not, there's plenty of legal CZ-75's on the CA list?", they said "we dunno, but this gun serial number does not check, can't accept this dude", and the purchase failed at that point. Who's fault? Mine. Why ... because nobody in the system will cover all the costs - except the potential buyer. So my attempt to buy a CZ-75B failed and cost me $200. The best I can figure out is that the gun was not CA-compliant because it had the improved trigger (omega trigger) and night sights. And so since the beanie-weenies in Sacremento have not drop-tested that specific version of a CZ-75B, it must therefore be a complete danger to the public.

Be aware that CA rules and regulations make NO SENSE whatsoever. It is all about money-making within CA, and completely irrelevant to proper gun handling or safety. Hence ... my suggestion to buy from the shelf from a good local dealer.

CA R

Quiet
January 20, 2014, 10:24 AM
Calguns Foundation (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/roster/) made an info graph showing the effects of CA's unsafe handgun laws...
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/cgf_roster-info-1.png

danez71
January 20, 2014, 06:23 PM
Quiet

Can you resize that pic down to something small than a billboard? :)

railroader
January 20, 2014, 11:01 PM
Here's a link for that chart. http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/cgf_roster-info-1.png

bainter1212
January 20, 2014, 11:31 PM
It is odd here in CA.....if a pistol is not on the roster it is "unsafe". Now, a cop can buy (and carry) this pistol. So, according to CA law it is OK for a cop to buy an unsafe pistol but not anybody else.

Makes no sense at all. None.

wadeestes
January 21, 2014, 12:14 AM
I believe IF the serial number is on the slide, that is the "gun" so you couldn't trade slides. If the serial number is on the frame, you should be good to go for anything the manufacturer says will fit on your frame.
A sad fellow Californian

9mmepiphany
January 21, 2014, 02:58 AM
Can you change the slide and it stay the same gun? Like the SIG p250. You can only get the subcompact in 9mm. The whole platform is modular, so I can buy a full size 45 kit right?
Or does my logic make too much sense for this state?
I'm sorry it took so long to address your question.

Once you own it legally, you can change anything you want on it as long as you don't make it an SBR, add a threaded barrel, or add a forward grip to it

Teachu2
January 21, 2014, 05:50 PM
It is odd here in CA.....if a pistol is not on the roster it is "unsafe". Now, a cop can buy (and carry) this pistol. So, according to CA law it is OK for a cop to buy an unsafe pistol but not anybody else.

Makes no sense at all. None.

Even better - he can "decide he doesn't want it" and sell it as a Private Party Transfer to any civilian that isn't a Prohibited Person. Several LAPD officers are selling them at way over list.

bainter1212
January 21, 2014, 05:55 PM
Even better - he can "decide he doesn't want it" and sell it as a Private Party Transfer to any civilian that isn't a Prohibited Person. Several LAPD officers are selling them at way over list.

Sacramento PD officers were caught straw buying off roster guns for their civilian friends awhile back. Big stink.
They were disciplined ( although NOT charged for felony straw purchase, which rankles me a bit).

9mmepiphany
January 21, 2014, 06:53 PM
Just as a point of clarification, they were never charged with making a straw purchase, because they never did.

What they were charged with was conducting a business without a license by making too many transaction during the year

Quiet
January 21, 2014, 07:13 PM
Just as a point of clarification, they were never charged with making a straw purchase, because they never did.

What they were charged with was conducting a business without a license by making too many transaction during the year

Correct.

And as a result, various CA LE agencies started implementing policy that prohibits their LEOs from purchasing non-Roster handguns for non-official use (only for on/off-duty use) and from transferring non-Roster handguns to any non-LEO. Violating the policy is grounds for termination of employment.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 22, 2014, 05:21 PM
I read somewhere that Ruger is allowing its firearms to drop off the list and S&W is allowing their M&P's to do the same. Any truth to that.

Quiet
January 23, 2014, 10:24 AM
I read somewhere that Ruger is allowing its firearms to drop off the list and S&W is allowing their M&P's to do the same. Any truth to that.
Ruger made an official announcement during the 2014 SHOT Show.

Due to the costs associated with submitting a semi-auto pistol and all the mandated features (chamber load indicator, magazine disconnect mechanism, microstamping array) required for semi-auto pistols...

Ruger has decided to:
1. No longer submit semi-auto pistols for testing to be Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.
2. Let all semi-auto pistols expire off the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale.

This decision does not effect revolvers, rifles or shotguns.

It now appears that S&W is also adhering to what Ruger has decided to do.
No official announcement, just unofficial word of mouth and actual acts (not renewing expired semi-auto pistols).
The S&W decision does not effect LE sales/contracts.

Midwest
January 23, 2014, 11:29 AM
CA's unsafe handgun laws, which created the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale, are a prime example of what happens when gun owners do not stand united and only look out for their own special interest.

And California isn't the only state that uses a 'roster list', so does Massachusetts.

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/docs/chsb/firearms/approvedfirearmsroster05-2013amended.pdf

stevek
January 23, 2014, 08:22 PM
Amen brother! Tried to quote post # 6 above, but there was a glitch somewhere...

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