Remington 700


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david bachelder
January 2, 2014, 02:13 PM
I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I have a legitimate question due to a concern of mine.

There is a bit of history here.
First of all my father bought this rifle new. It's a bolt action Remington 700 chambered in 30-06. I'm guessing this was 25 or 30 years ago. From what I remember the gun was safe and dependable for a very long time. I do remember him telling me several years ago that he'd had an unusual experience with it while deer hunting one morning. My Dad was a stickler for safety, we were not allowed to bring a firearm into the camp unless the action was open. Then the gun was to be placed in the rack and left untouched until it was needed at the next hunt.

He told me he had entered his tree stand blind one morning with the gun unloaded and the action open. There was a short ladder that led up the tree to the stand. Once in the stand he placed the butt of the rifle on his thigh, barrel up, and placed one round into the chamber. When he closed the bolt the gun went off. Scaring the crap out of him and shooting a hole in the roof of the blind.

I supposed I always thought he'd made a mistake and accidently bumped the trigger. At this time I knew nothing of the Remington safety issues. My father used the gun several more years without incident.

My father passed away just last month and I inherited the rifle. I cleaned it up to a pristine condition and take a lot of pride in it. Recently I reloaded a box of shells for it, I only keep about fifty rounds and I had given my son about twenty out of my stash. I decided to take the reloads and try to chamber a few of them just to make sure my reloads were up to snuff. I opened the chamber and dropped a round. My left hand was on the fore stock and my right hand was on the bolt. I closed the bolt testing for fit then ejected the round; no problem. I decided to chamber a second so I dropped another one and closed the chamber, the second the bolt closed the gun fired. My hands never moved, I still had my left hand on the stock and my right hand on the bolt.

Fortunately my fathers safety teachings had stuck. I was facing a safe direction, an outside wall away from the only other resident in the house. We live out in the country surrounded by woods and there are no neighbors any where near us. I shot a hole through the wall and off into the woods somewhere.

I did learn a valuable lesson, I will always do chamber testing with dud rounds from now on.

I have been around guns most of my life, I have owned and fired many weapons. I shoot frequently and am very comfortable with my knowledge of firearms. I'm no rookie and when I say I never touched the trigger I am positive that I didn't.

Now for the question. The gun is a keepsake and I can't part with it. On the other hand It's not safe and I'm afraid this may happen again. I can't enjoy the gun knowing that your hand doesn't necessarily have to be on the trigger for it to go off. This makes it threat to me and anyone around me.

If I understand things correctly, I can't expect Remington to fix the problem. I hear they don't acknowledge that the problem exists. Is it possible to have the trigger assembly fixed, replaced or altered to guarantee safety? What are my options? What would the cost be? Would this make the gun safe?

Another question, I had a Remington Pump 760 in 30-06 which I gave to my son. Is he in danger? This rifle has never shown any problem and I know it's as old as the bolt action described above.

I also Have a Remington 788 chambered in 243 Winchester, is this gun safe?

Are all Remington 700 series rifles affected?

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rcmodel
January 2, 2014, 02:23 PM
I would clean the trigger out with gun-scrubber or some other spray solvent.

Then adjust it properly following these instructions.
http://www.theoutdoorwriter.com/shooting/r700_trigger_4.htm

http://quarterbore.com/library/articles/rem700trigger.html

The trigger is safe, as long as it is properly adjusted for sear engagement, and safety checked.

There is no possible reason the gun will fire when chambering a round if it won't fire when operating the bolt with no round in the chamber or magazine.

Do your safety testing with no ammo in the same room.

rc

LeonCarr
January 2, 2014, 02:25 PM
I would get an aftermarket trigger for the Remington 700. I like the Timneys best myself.

The Remington 760 trigger assembly is completely different than the Remington 700 and unless it was messed with by somebody you should have no problems.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

ColtPythonElite
January 2, 2014, 02:32 PM
What rc said.

351 WINCHESTER
January 2, 2014, 02:33 PM
I would write Remington a certified letter describing your problem. I would be surprised if they did not fix it unless the trigger has been tampered with (which is possible), neglected, etc.

Personally, I don't trust Remington 700 triggers. My gunsmith will not touch one with a 10 foot pole.

Kp321
January 2, 2014, 02:47 PM
+1 on RC's comments. Remington has had lots of bad press on their 700 triggers. From the hundreds I have worked on, the only problem I have seen on non-bubbaed triggers is gummy lube in the trigger housing. The safety blocks the sear, not the trigger. The stiff lube holds the trigger away from the sear so it drops when the safety is released. A thorough cleaning of the trigger group solves the problem. Now it bubba has tinkered with it.......

david bachelder
January 2, 2014, 03:12 PM
Remington has received at least 10,000 written complaints and and lost several lawsuits over the Remington 700 Trigger. Remington has paid out millions in losses. A simple Google search will bring up hundreds of hits on the issue.

Google "Remington Under Fire" 10/20/2010 a CNBC Documentary on the issue.

thegiff
January 2, 2014, 06:38 PM
The trigger is dirty/gunked up, worn out, rusty, or mis-adjusted (tampered with). Fix or replace it or sell the gun. Older triggers don't have the same safety mechanism as newer ones, an old trigger if placed on-safe, the bolt can only be opened if it is placed back to off-safe. Newer ones the bolt can be opened either on-safe or off-safe. To get it really clean, remove the trigger assembly and clean it with an ultrasonic cleaner. If you find rust on/in it it should probably be replaced, I wouldn't trust a rusty trigger.

The X-mark trigger has a design less prone to an accidental discharge at the expense of trigger feel, Should't be too hard to pick one up. Timney's are more dirt-tolerant than Jewells if you are looking into aftermarket triggers.

I have a 760, it is totally different. I think it has more in common with an AR trigger than a 700 trigger.

jmr40
January 2, 2014, 07:37 PM
It is a common problem that many refuse to admit. The man who designed the trigger, Mike Walker, found the flaw in 1946 and redesigned a new trigger at that time. Remington declined to make the change until 60 years later in 2006.

The Walker trigger uses a connector between the trigger and sear unlike any other design. When you pull a Remington trigger it is not directly connected to the sear. Instead the trigger pushes the connector, which in turn pushes the sear until it releases.

It is possible for the connector to fail and release the sear with no trigger pull. When this happens the safety is the only thing holding back the firing pin. When the safety is released the gun fires.

Any gun will fail if the trigger is improperly adjusted, but numerous brand new Remingtons have done this. Mike Walker even demonstrated that it was possible with brand new guns right off the assembley line. A brand new rifle sent to Consumer Reports for evaluation did it in 1968 and was written up in the article.

Bubba has been working on every gun made for 500 years. If Bubba were the problem you would hear about other guns doing this. They don't. It is strictly a Remington problem.

natman
January 3, 2014, 10:15 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=596336&
See post #11.

And several other threads.

The short version, yes there is a potential problem, it affects all 700s made before 2007 and you can cure it with a different trigger. Replace it with a Timney, Dayton-Traister or similar.

david bachelder
January 3, 2014, 07:30 PM
Any gun that goes off without the trigger being pulled is a potential killer. It's an accident waiting to happen.

Mine went off when I closed the bolt. The trigger has never been tapered with, so that story doesn't hold water. Bubba was not involved.

I have written Remington, they can file it with the other 10,000 complaints.

I have an appointment with a gunsmith and he will help me decide the proper cure. Right now, I'm leaning toward a new trigger.

I feel like its a design fail, just like the designer claims.

epoletna
January 3, 2014, 09:25 PM
Question from a 700 owner -- if this has never happened with my 700 is it possible it might happen in the future? Or is it a problem with only certain 700s?

Jim K
January 3, 2014, 09:26 PM
The problem is a combination of a design flaw and wear. While improper adjustment can cause problems even with a new trigger, most of the reported problems have been caused by wear on the sear and happen with well used rifles. (Needless to say, Bubba can contribute, usually by failing to understand how the trigger works before working on it or by reading on the internet how to adjust the trigger and proceeding to do so.)

The problem is failure of what is called "sear reset", and the 700 is not the only rifle that can have the problem, just about every bolt rifle can, given enough wear or butchering. The Remington 700 is more susceptible because Remington tried to give the rifle a good trigger pull.

Of course, the lawyers and their allies in the gun ban industry will never admit any responsibility of the gun user to employ good safety practice; they blame the evil gun maker and demand the government put all gun companies out of business for selling dangerous products.

Jim

NCsmitty
January 3, 2014, 09:28 PM
I can understand your apprehension in using the rifle, but I'm in the camp with Kp321, that it's an issue with a gummed trigger that hasn't been cleaned properly in many years.
The problem triggers mentioned can fire when the safety is disengaged.

I've had many M700's, in many calibers, over the last 50 years, and never had, or seen, a bad trigger on a M700. They are very adjustable, if you know what you're doing.

You can replace it with an aftermarket trigger and ease your concerns, as I know it is a very sentimental rifle. If it was mine, I would have the trigger properly cleaned & lubed, and run some inert sample shells through it to see if the issue is fixed.


NCsmitty

Jim K
January 3, 2014, 10:37 PM
While there are other factors, here is the reason Remington 700's sometimes fire when the safety is moved to the "off" position. I don't want to go into too much detail, but the original design of the 700 trigger involved a solid sear. When it was found that a solid sear infringed a Winchester patent, the design was changed to use two thinner pieces, side by side. Only one side is blocked by the safety. The lower end of the two-piece sear rests on a connector, which in turn rests on the top of the trigger. The connector is hard and its use allows a much finer edge than would be possible on either the trigger or the sear, and that means less engagement and a better trigger pull than would otherwise be possible. The use of thinner parts meant that the part could wear and peen more easily than if the parts were more substantial.

When working correctly, the safety will cam the sear up, moving the cocking piece back and moving the sear itself out of engagement with the connector. But as the safety and sear wear,that camming movement becomes less, so that putting the safety "on" does not move the cocking piece back far enough to disengage the sear from the connector. Then, when the trigger is pulled (many shooters insist on "testing" the safety by pulling the trigger), the sear can move down enough to pass the connector. When that happens, releasing the trigger will not allow the sear to reset. It is then held only by the safety itself and when the safety is taken off, the gun fires.

Remington has redesigned that trigger at least twice and it seems to me that the problem should be solved, albeit at the sacrifice of a nice trigger pull. Of course no redesign will ever be enough to guard against Bubba and his file or people showing off their knowledge (or lack of it) on U-Tube.

Jim

natman
January 4, 2014, 11:23 AM
Question from a 700 owner -- if this has never happened with my 700 is it possible it might happen in the future? Or is it a problem with only certain 700s?
It won't happen if you replace the trigger. It won't happen if your 700 is post-2007 because Remington already replaced the trigger. It can happen in any Remington with the Walker trigger.

Kp321
January 4, 2014, 12:48 PM
I need to clarify my statement about gummy lube in the trigger. I am not accusing the owner of poor maintenance at all. The worst offender is the factory lube/rust preventative. I have had new/old stock 700 triggers fail just from the factory lube.

gibble888
January 5, 2014, 07:53 PM
I think all model 700's should have a "made in china" stamp on them...dangerous triggers,dangerous safety,scope mounts drilled cockeyed,chambering issues....on and on....junk pure junk

LAGS
January 5, 2014, 08:32 PM
I hope the OP will clarify something and use the correct terminology as not to Mislead someone else and have them do something Un Safe.
He stated to only , Test Cycle a gun with "DUD " rounds.
A " DUD " is the terminology for a cartridge that has " Failed To Fire '
Never assume that they will Never fire.
They are still a live round for all intents and purposes.

The Proper term should have been a " Dummy Cartridge "
I would not want any of our inexperienced members to think if they have a cartridge that fails to fire, that they can just put it in their pocket and save it for test cycling their rifle.

DM~
January 5, 2014, 10:44 PM
I'm with RC on this one...

I have quite a few 700's, bought my first one in 1971 and i've NEVER had it or any of the others i own, fail to work properly! Not even ONE time in all those years...and that's with the 10's of thousands of rounds i've put through my 700's over the years...

BUT, they HAVE to be kept CLEAN and they have to be "properly" adjusted!

DM

bubbinator
January 26, 2014, 02:25 AM
I love Rem 700 rifles, have several. A sub .50 MOA Rem HB Varmint Rifle in .223 circa 1973 is a favorite. My 1981 700 ADL 25-06 is also sub MOA and has taken scores of deer without issue ever. Case in point-My Rem 700 Classic in 221 Fire Ball-Trigger issues! My good friend has a Rem 700 SS 7mmMag that is a 2008 +/- issue that he got as a gift and has failed to use due to trigger issues. I consulted by State Police Agency gunsmith, Holcomb Kearns, Tallasse, Al and he looked at the Rem 700 SS 7 mm Mag. He took the action from the stock and the trigger group out after testing the pull assembled. The trigger broke at 8-9#! He greased the assembly, put it back together and it was 3# +/- for 100 cycles. I saw it come apart and it was completely gunked up with gummy oil! I took my 221 Fireball out of the stock and degreased it with Gunk-Out and re-lubed minimally with Breakfree CLP and have been 100% accident free since.

joe40x
January 31, 2014, 12:54 PM
I think all model 700's should have a "made in china" stamp on them...dangerous triggers,dangerous safety,scope mounts drilled cockeyed,chambering issues....on and on....junk pure junk
I' guessing that Gibble888 is a savage fan?

j1
January 31, 2014, 01:00 PM
An owner should not have to adjust the trigger to make a gun safe. What are the problems with mod 700 triggers?

351 WINCHESTER
January 31, 2014, 01:15 PM
A real safety would actually block the firing pin, but I guess that would cost too much money. Remington had a recall on their 600 & 660 models, but never recalled the 700 which had the exact trigger. Why? MONEY.

natman
February 1, 2014, 10:39 AM
An owner should not have to adjust the trigger to make a gun safe. What are the problems with mod 700 triggers?
Follow the link in post #10.

Savage99
February 1, 2014, 12:17 PM
Never chamber a loaded round in a gun like that unless the firing pin has been removed.

Or it has a M-70 type three position safety that holds the firing pin back and allows the bolt to be opened or a coin is holding the firing pin back against the bolt shroud.

While I had a 722 it never had an A.D.

I would not own or touch a gun like those with an ten foot pole.

IROCZ
February 3, 2014, 12:26 PM
I have a 721 and 2 700's and have never had a problem with any of them. All have several thousand round through them.

gibble888
February 4, 2014, 12:59 PM
Yes but i also like rem,wins and others...my prob is model 700's under any other name would be complete junk...crappy barrels crappy saftey come on is this fisher price? My go to deer rifle is a 760 which shoots under moa...

sage5907
February 5, 2014, 11:42 AM
I bought a Remington from a friend who had cleaned the trigger many times with WD-40. My wife was using the rifle, flipped off the safety, and the rifle fired. I think rc is correct that the trigger could be cleaned with a solvent which would remove the gunk from the trigger. Frankly, I would never trust a trigger that had fired like that. I replace the trigger with a new one. I would recommend a Timney.

WVRJ
February 9, 2014, 08:10 PM
I would say the trigger had some gunk or dirt in it,and the sear didn't return properly.I've owned and shot and adjusted the M700 trigger for 30 plus years.In at least 30 different rifles,I've never experienced an AD.The OP never said anything about the safety being on.If it fired on bolt closing,the sear let go,likely because it wasn't put back into position by the return spring.

hiplains
February 21, 2014, 10:33 PM
Use Lighter fluid to clean/lube your triggers.

SleazyRider
February 22, 2014, 08:42 AM
Thanks, Natman, for the diagrams and explanation you provided in the previous (closed) thread. By any chance, does a similar diagram exist that depicts the new, improved, post-2007 trigger mechanism? I'm curious as to exactly how they dealt with that gap behind the trigger connector.

natman
February 22, 2014, 10:21 AM
Thanks, Natman, for the diagrams and explanation you provided in the previous (closed) thread. By any chance, does a similar diagram exist that depicts the new, improved, post-2007 trigger mechanism? I'm curious as to exactly how they dealt with that gap behind the trigger connector.

As far as I can tell in the Mark X trigger Remington dealt with the trigger connector the same way every other manufacturer dealt with it - they didn't put one in. The trigger acts directly on the sear, just like most triggers.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/15/remingtons-new-adjustable-x-mark-pro-trigger/

SleazyRider
February 23, 2014, 05:59 PM
What about the new model ADLs? I don't believe they have the Mark X trigger as they are non-adjustable. I wonder if it's the same design but safety-lacquered at the factory to keep curmudgeons like myself from tampering with them for reasons of liability. Does anybody know about the post-2007 ADL trigger?

scottishkat
March 3, 2014, 06:43 PM
I've owned as many as 10 model 700 rifles without a UD. Some of the triggers were absolute junk 1 in particular I still own a VLS in 260 had like 3 stages of creep. Replaced with a timney which is not a major job if you're handy with a firearm and tools. All of them have shot well some have been stellar

I purchased one of there R25's it had the worst trigger in history spent near 300.00 on an American Gold trigger problem gone.

Some people will own a firearm and never take it apart and clean it. Its the first thing that happens to all of mine. I would clean it. If you are still worried about it replace the trigger. I would have a problem selling one that I knew had a problem like you describe.

I don't care for the safety/trigger assembly on the 700's don't like bolts that open with the safety on. The xmark is not a significant departure from the old the bolt still opens when the safety is on it is a good trigger though.

Good luck and shoot straight.

Bob

Bexar
March 3, 2014, 07:31 PM
In high school 1971 a buddy and I were at the rifle range with his new 700 and he took the safety off after squeezing the trigger with the safety on and sent a round down range. The old 700's you couldn't lift the bolt without taking the safety off. More recently manufactured ones you can. My buddy and I couldn't figure out what happened. Anyway several years later I took the safety off after squeezing the trigger and same deal but in my case I had a snap cap in the chamber because I had wanted to check the trigger pull on a .375 H&H I'd recently bought. Ever since then if I pull the trigger on a 700 and the safety is on if I can I lift the bolt to reset the trigger and sear. I won't ever shoot a 700 I can't lift the bolt with the safety on. It's kind of a moot point because my rifle buying days are over. I've heard of a new buyer of a 700 that had his finger on the trigger when he pushed the safety forward. When he did he rotated his wrist and his finger pulled the trigger as his wrist rotated. He received a quick lecture from the gun salesman. Anyway, I just have lost interest in the Remington 700s. Excellent rifles but I wouldn't buy one for my Wife or Daughter because of the spooky safety issue.

Maj Dad
March 4, 2014, 08:14 PM
I don't own a M700, but I have experience with unexpected discharges. M1 Garands/M14s will double with grease (Tetra, applied by me for spiffy trigger pulls) on the hammer hooks/sear - after 3 instances, I keep all my Garand/M14 trigger assemblies very clean and very lightly oiled. No further issues, and I live happily with GI spec triggers. My take is that broken or gunked up parts can cause problems, regardless of the weapon. Clean is good...

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