AOW Coach Gun?


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Mainsail
January 3, 2014, 01:09 AM
I've seen the Serbu which, from what I understand, is built on a virgin receiver so it can be called a handgun.

My question is; can this be done with a SxS shotgun, like a coach gun....only shorter.

But then...maybe I want a stock on it.

There is the non-NFA shotguns (http://augerprecisionfirearms.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=62&product_id=112) out there, but those are all pumps. I want a break-open SxS.

http://augerprecisionfirearms.com/image/cache/data/nonnfa500-500x500.jpg

So what are the options? Is anything like this being made now?

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OARNGESI
January 3, 2014, 01:17 AM
I think the problem is a sxs usually has a very short receiver compared to a pump. So basically to keep the over all length without a stock the barrel will still have to be over 18in.

forindooruseonly
January 3, 2014, 02:54 AM
If you're wanting a short barreled SxS with a stock, then you'll have to make a SBS.

I do not know of anyone making a SxS that is 26.5 inches with short barrels as an alternative to the pump you showed.

Oarngesi is right. My SBS has 11 inch barrels and is 19 inches overall, so add the necessary 7.5 inches to the barrels to get 26.5 and you are now legal length, 18.5 inch barrels.

MCgunner
January 3, 2014, 09:16 AM
That thing looks like a class 3 weapon to me.

rule303
January 3, 2014, 11:50 AM
There is a lot of misunderstanding about what an "AOW" is. There are firearms, such as pistol grip only shotguns which are non-NFA and are transferred as an "other firearm", meaning they are not a handgun, rifle, or shotgun (shotgun is defined as being shoulder fired). These just need to have a 26" overall length, the 18" barrel restriction doesn't apply since they aren't a "shotgun" by legal definition. Then there is an AOW, which can be the same as the above, but shorter than 26". That is an NFA item, and needs a tax stamp. They can only be built from a receiver that was never a shotgun, otherwise it would be registered as a SBS. So if you could find a double barrel that never had a shoulder stock from the factory, you could conceivably register it as a AOW.

LAGS
January 3, 2014, 12:56 PM
@ rule303
I think to Qualify as a Virgin Receiver, it would not have been made and registered as a Shotgun Receiver at all.
So just never having a Stock or barrel doesnt qualify it as Virgin.
And there are length rstrictions on Unrifled Barrels Except for Black Powder.
Being fired from the shoulder is not the definition of being a Shotgun.
I buldged a barrel on a 12 ga one time right at 17 1/2 ".
The BATF said, if I cut it off, then the "Barrel was Illegal", even if I no longer Owned or Possed the gun.
I still have the Bulged Barrel , and it was never cut off.
To manufacture something for sale, it has to be registered as something, and cant be just sold as a Part if it is the receiver.

The same goes for rifle barrels.
If you cut off a rifle barrel to less than 16" and have it in your shop to use as a receiver holding bar, you must first drill a hole thru the chamber area so that it can NEVER chamber or fire a cartridge, or it is still considered a barrel and would be illegal.
You can not save a shortened rifle barrel for installation on a Pistol later, unless the chamber area is totally disabled, or the threads are removed so it cant mount on a rifle receiver.
Then it is just a Barrel Blank
The BATF is really funny about that kind of stuff.

Mainsail
January 3, 2014, 12:58 PM
There is a lot of misunderstanding about what an "AOW" is. There are firearms, such as pistol grip only shotguns which are non-NFA and are transferred as an "other firearm", meaning they are not a handgun, rifle, or shotgun (shotgun is defined as being shoulder fired). These just need to have a 26" overall length, the 18" barrel restriction doesn't apply since they aren't a "shotgun" by legal definition. Then there is an AOW, which can be the same as the above, but shorter than 26". That is an NFA item, and needs a tax stamp. They can only be built from a receiver that was never a shotgun, otherwise it would be registered as a SBS. So if you could find a double barrel that never had a shoulder stock from the factory, you could conceivably register it as a AOW.
Thanks Rule303 for the informative post. I was aware there were two different issues at play in this- AOW and non-NFA. So I think the consensus is that right now there is nothing out there in a short coach gun (and from what I've found, few coach guns from which to choose).

Am I alone in thinking that a short SxS would be a useful and fun gun? Even during the worst days of the ammo shortage, there was always 12 gauge of some sort on the shelves. I think it would make a great truck gun or HD gun. With a little practice I think one could reload pretty quickly.

loose noose
January 3, 2014, 12:58 PM
How about a Howda, however that is Black Powder.

PoserHoser
January 3, 2014, 06:34 PM
http://s251.photobucket.com/user/patriotpa/media/Baikal.jpg.html?#/user/patriotpa/media/Baikal.jpg.html?&_suid=1388788390618007214652112968406
probably the closest you'll find without a tax stamp.

LAGS
January 3, 2014, 09:33 PM
@ poserHoser
That is correct, it meets the minimum requirements for barrel length on a smooth bore, and the min, overall length.

dogtown tom
January 3, 2014, 09:35 PM
LAGS @ rule303
I think to Qualify as a Virgin Receiver, it would not have been made and registered as a Shotgun Receiver at all.
Firearm receivers aren't registered as anything. They are simply "firearms", and transferred on a 4473 as an "Other firearm".




So just never having a Stock or barrel doesnt qualify it as Virgin..............Being fired from the shoulder is not the definition of being a Shotgun.
Uh, yes it is. The definition in ATF regulations of a rifle or shotgun clearly states:
478.11 Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
A firearm receiver that has never had BOTH a barrel AND stock attached at the same time remains an "other firearm" even if can only be made into a handgun or into a rifle or shotgun. (see the instructions on the Form 4473 for Question 18 "Type of firearm")








I buldged a barrel on a 12 ga one time right at 17 1/2 ".
The BATF said, if I cut it off, then the "Barrel was Illegal", even if I no longer Owned or Possed the gun.
It's only illegal because you had a SHOTGUN. An AOW is not a shotgun, neither is an "Other Firearm".




To manufacture something for sale, it has to be registered as something, and cant be just sold as a Part if it is the receiver.
Completely and totally wrong.
1. There is no federal registration of firearms.
2. Firearm "types" are determined by Federal law, not by the manufacturer.




You need to read these ATF Determination letters and Rulings as well:
https://e8c9b3ab-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/openatf/2010-513.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7coKtPDhVCqdyGLc3HkFYZH8PhYpJvUuErqtqqgecDKDC-DCeoIkKKNxYeWk05Va7TBRNV49UPUAw6RriXlriR-jE9uj-wP68YLftMCRZmRO98TKBui23BZd3c-qJVZOmTx1e4ajQHtM2wbiojqLbfTiMI_3Ahz_Gq7T4wqdF_2mKutQxSi0Jv5R84xfXi3UNJFm2LwuFY6-DM59GwLKkCIjfj5QBw%3D%3D&attredirects=0
AND
https://e8c9b3ab-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/openatf/2010-778.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cpXiOaxGch6mGAG0WUnyMyivSLt77OFZuffrL2eOfltWddcAtI_EHv2bbmoWiMgeqjAq-D2WLz-gjz4kgn_XBQCbqMuYKxdbxw3V7EcarNGLZWSwVU8vgkWt7mpzOA2-kcOPxI7z42yeWrVttmtCPR70iamhM8rbZMq6vQqMVrh8kKyOzdeEGVzm29kpWuOHzGlLBXydbPlHcEzTC555v6Xp3wNuQ%3D%3D&attredirects=0

Arizona_Mike
January 4, 2014, 12:20 PM
This has been discussed on the NFA subforum before. Several people have hunted for virgin breakopen receivers and not found them. Just go the SBR route.

Len Savage's little idea has caused quite a fuss, but it is non-NFA and the ATF has said so in writing. The one objection that holds any water is that as a "firearm" not a shotgun, it does not benefit from the "ordinary" shotgun exemption to being an over 50 cal DD. The problem is that would also apply to pistol grip only shotguns of any barrel length and the ATF would never "go there" because there are millions of them out there!

Mike

PS. While waiting for my stamp, my Lupara wore an 18.5" barrel and came to about 26.25" OAL. A virgin receiver would not have given me any benefit at all since it was not possible to be under 18" barrel and still over 26" OAL.

Before getting my stamp:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21431738/dec2013/non-NFA%20Lupara.jpg

Current NFA Configuration:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21431738/dec2013/20131228_142211.jpg

Arizona_Mike
January 4, 2014, 12:52 PM
@ rule303
I think to Qualify as a Virgin Receiver, it would not have been made and registered as a Shotgun Receiver at all.
So just never having a Stock or barrel doesnt qualify it as Virgin.
And there are length rstrictions on Unrifled Barrels Except for Black Powder.
Being fired from the shoulder is not the definition of being a Shotgun.
I buldged a barrel on a 12 ga one time right at 17 1/2 ".
The BATF said, if I cut it off, then the "Barrel was Illegal", even if I no longer Owned or Possed the gun.
I still have the Bulged Barrel , and it was never cut off.
To manufacture something for sale, it has to be registered as something, and cant be just sold as a Part if it is the receiver.

The same goes for rifle barrels.
If you cut off a rifle barrel to less than 16" and have it in your shop to use as a receiver holding bar, you must first drill a hole thru the chamber area so that it can NEVER chamber or fire a cartridge, or it is still considered a barrel and would be illegal.
You can not save a shortened rifle barrel for installation on a Pistol later, unless the chamber area is totally disabled, or the threads are removed so it cant mount on a rifle receiver.
Then it is just a Barrel Blank
The BATF is really funny about that kind of stuff.
Never having had a stock is the exact definition of being a "virgin" receiver which is a "firearm" not a rifle or shotgun. Edit: It Looks Like Dogtown Tom already adressed this and quoted 478.11.

A field agent may have indeed told you this but I doubt it was a firearms examiner. A receiver is "contaminated" by being built into a rifle or shotgun but the same is not true of other gun parts.

It is a barrel not a firearm. You can buy a 14" Rem 870 shotgun barrel on line. The question is do you have an illegal legal way to build it into something but no simultaneous legal way?

The ATF tried for many years to resist the definition of constructive possession from the US Supreme Court US v. Thompson-Center before officially adopting the language in Ruling 2011-4 (http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf):
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they . . . serve no useful purpose other than to make . . .

Mike

Mainsail
January 4, 2014, 01:52 PM
AZMike, That's one beautiful shotgun. How is it to shoot?

It seems all very complicated. Plus, I can't decide if I prefer the pistol grip or a shoulder stock. I suppose I'll end up just finding a good coach shotgun and going from there.

Now my thoughts are, what would be better, to find a good SxS that ejects and have it cut, or find a SxS that was made as a coach gun.

jimsouth
January 4, 2014, 05:42 PM
Way back there was a LeFever Nitro express in the family. Side by side 12 gauge. Had a big ding ( actually dent ) in the right barrel & when an attempt was made to squeeze it out , it split . Ding was at 15 inches. if only it had been at 19 or 20. Long gone. I have a Mossberg 500 for home protection ( 00 Buck ) & also a side X side 12 gauge coach gun. The Mossberg carries more rounds for sure, but I gotta admit , the double coach gun is definitely more intimidating. Now that I think about it, I believe the LeFever dent was successfully removed , but it split at the dent site when it was fired.

MCgunner
January 4, 2014, 06:19 PM
Pistol grips are for pistols.

ugaarguy
January 5, 2014, 01:38 AM
Pistol grips are for pistols.
Normally I'd agree, but a very specialized type of firearm that can't legally have a stock stock is being discussed.

The firearm pictured in the OP would be an SBS if it had a stock. Because it never had a stock, and meets the minimum OAL requirements it can have a bbl under 18" without being an NFA item. The letter posted explains the why and how.

Arizona_Mike
January 5, 2014, 02:09 AM
AZMike, That's one beautiful shotgun. How is it to shoot?

It seems all very complicated. Plus, I can't decide if I prefer the pistol grip or a shoulder stock. I suppose I'll end up just finding a good coach shotgun and going from there.

Now my thoughts are, what would be better, to find a good SxS that ejects and have it cut, or find a SxS that was made as a coach gun.
It handles like the hind leg of an angry mule. The tighter your grip, the less you get kicked:D

It's OK with reduced recoil buckshot but then again I find it fun shooting a Ruger Redhawk Alaskan with Buffalo Bore .454 Casull.

Mike

jimsouth
January 5, 2014, 09:01 AM
I have a Stoeger 12 g Coach Gun. Well made for the money. About 3 ft total length. Actually, I think I would prefer an exposed hammer coach gun - if used for home defense; ( if you intend to keep it loaded ) - no stress until you yank back the hammer. Not so with the hammerless. I would not have a loaded & closed hammerless shotgun anywhere in the house. Too iffy. Knew a long time collector - dealer - told me - if you have a an exposed hammer shotgun - always have an extra set of hammers shoved into the hollow stock - firing pins too. I'm guessing you could also have the necessary tools in there too.

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