high capacity is it . .


PDA






jp1944
January 3, 2014, 11:03 PM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters. I think the mind set is you don't have to be competent of you have a lot of rounds - poor mindset.
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target. It is also the will to do what must be done and that will is immediately and unalterably observed by those who would do you and yours harm - never forget this fact.
Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.
Spray and pray does not work.

If you enjoyed reading about "high capacity is it . ." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mljdeckard
January 3, 2014, 11:11 PM
Well, by that logic, you don't need a magazine at all, just a round in the chamber. RIGHT?

I usually carry a 1911, but I have other guns I carry too. I doubt you will ever hear anyone say after a gunfight: "You know the only downside was I just had too darn many shots to use."

Onward Allusion
January 3, 2014, 11:15 PM
In an adrenaline charged stressful situation like having to fight for your life, most people, including many in law enforcement, will not shoot as accurate as they do at the range. Real life shootings isn't range or bullseye shooting. Sure, you will want to be proficient in your shooting at the range, however, most real life shootings will take place at distances much less than 25 yards. I carry a measly 7+1 shooter, but that's because I rather know that I am carrying a tiny P-32 than forgetting my 5946 at home or in the safe 'cause it's a burden to carry. If they made a pistol near the size/weight of a P-32 that held 15+1 I'd jump at it. Does that mean I'm a spray and pray guy? Hmmm...

DammitBoy
January 3, 2014, 11:26 PM
I like high capacity handguns.

Not certain, but it might have something to do with my best friend and I getting jumped by 14 hoodlums in a dark alley many years ago in DC.

TennJed
January 4, 2014, 01:55 AM
Pretty broad (an incorrect) statement. I have seen plenty of people shoot small semi autos and revolvers poorly. I have also seen plenty of people shoot higher cap semis good

9mmforMe
January 4, 2014, 02:06 AM
I think one should practice sight alignment and trigger control to ensure accurate placement regardless of magazine/cylinder capacity.

Inebriated
January 4, 2014, 02:28 AM
Oh this should be interesting.

DSAPT9
January 4, 2014, 04:33 AM
I find it funny that most of the three gun match shooters use high cap guns including high cap 1911s in fact most move and shoot competition shooters use high cap guns. Then there is law enforcement and the military that both shoot high cap guns and seem to shoot quite accurate.

I will grant you that many will not put 5 rounds in a tight touching group but a military 1911 could not do it either unless you did extensive work to them.

The fact is most of these guns are designed for military applications and have a loose tolerance to be reliable in the field yet still be capable of putting two rounds to the chest and one to the head while still being able to provide cover fire if need be without a reload.

I run a Glock 19 with 124 gr +p ammo and I learned a long time ago I do not need to put 2 rounds exactly on the second button down on the bad guys polo shirt because any place within a inch or two around it will do the same thing.

I am happy to give up a little accuracy for battle field reliability any day.

But this is just my opinion.

USAF_Vet
January 4, 2014, 05:57 AM
I might be thinking in different definitions of "high capacity" magazines than the OP, but I know the 20 and 32 round Mec Gar mags that fit the S&W 59 series auto loaders throw off how the gun balances, and if I'm using one, my groups open up noticeably. But the factory 12 and 15 round mags, which I do not consider to be hi-cap, I shoot with just fine.

Is a 17 round mag in a Glock 17 a hi-cap? I say no. Its the standard.

So, if that same G17 is being shot poorly, it could be for any number of reasons. The 'respawn' crowd is often guilty of spray an pray shooting, especially if they aren't buying the ammo.


I'm not a competition shooter, so if I can reliably put rounds on target at 15 yards, I'm happy. That target being the size of the average human torso from collar bone to belly button.

I am able to accomplish this with every gun and every magazine I own.

Also, I really don't care about the other guys shooting as long as he or she is doing so safely. I don't care if they can't hit the broadside of the barn from the inside, not my concern.

My 7+1 might be more than I ever need, but I still carry an extra 7.

USAF_Vet
January 4, 2014, 06:01 AM
By the way, 25 yards in the 8 ring is pretty much the qualifying M9 standard for USAF Security Forces. My CPL class qualification was 30 rounds at 5 yards. I would hope the average shooter is capable of somewhere in between.

beatledog7
January 4, 2014, 07:43 AM
OP,

You get 7 rounds, and I get 13. Who will get more hits?

Unless you are twice as good as I am, I will.

I'm betting you're not.

And even if you are twice as accurate, as long as I get center of mass hits with every round, I can put 6 more holes in the assailant(s) than you can.

SharpsDressedMan
January 4, 2014, 07:51 AM
There was an incident many years ago where the most distinguished shot on the Ohio State Patrol, a top level competitive shooter, too, found himself in a shootout over the hood of a car with a wanted felon. Just the two of them. They both exchanged shots, while ducking and taking what cover they could, and it lasted only a few seconds. In short order, the trooper found his gun empty, as did the bad guy. As he related the story later, he couldn't BELIEVE he had shot six times and MISSED. At this point, both were reloading, and the trooper finished first, took careful aim, and killed the suspect. Does anyone really know how many shots they will need? Does anyone ever NOT need to practice? Does anyone NOT have room for improvement?

Vodoun da Vinci
January 4, 2014, 08:20 AM
I practice threat focused/shooting and moving and favor a higher capacity gun. That said I adore my 5 shot .38 Special snubbie now that I have it under control and can hit what I'm shooting at at 21' while running/moving to cover.

We will fight like we train. Spray and pray and a high cap pistol is useless. Multiple accurate rounds to center mass while moving laterally to cover is the way I train as much as I can. More is better if you can do it and can carry the extra rounds concealed but I worry that many see "more bullets" as an exchange for lack of training/accuracy.

There is a little old lady we train with that can put 6 rounds out of a .38 Special in a 5" spread at 21' while ducking/moving slowly laterally. She might make good use of a high cap autoloader (which I use) but I'm not certain I'd try and shoot it out with her. But that's just me...

VooDoo

jp1944
January 4, 2014, 08:43 AM
I have seem two incidences of 'orcs' fleeing at the sight of a firearm. I have seen one where several of them fled at the sight of a large bore pistol. Both of thee occurred in a large east coast city.

My experience in over 35 years of shooting, hunting exclusively with handguns and watching those on the range has been, for the most part, those with high capacity shoot rapidly and miss. Sorry, but it is a truism - kinda' like a laser effect - you never learn sight picture and squeeze.

Those who shoot while watching the front sight and being controlled enough to squeeze the trigger do not miss or do so very rarely.

Personally, I care not if an honest citizen carries 5 shots or something that holds over a dozen shots - I DO care that he is armed and ready to defend his life.

I appreciate the varied comments.

45_auto
January 4, 2014, 08:56 AM
Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence.

Interesting viewpoint. Ever been attacked by a paper target? Do you have any references where ANYONE in an actual gunfight has benefited by running out of ammo?

My experience in over 35 years of shooting, hunting exclusively with handguns and watching those on the range has been, for the most part, those with high capacity shoot rapidly and miss. Sorry, but it is a truism - kinda' like a laser effect - you never learn sight picture and squeeze.

My experience in 38 years of military, law enforcement, and competition handgun shooting has been for the most part that on a civilian range (no competition going on, just casual shooters and hunters), EVERYONE I watch is shooting and missing, whether they're shooting rapidly or slowly, high capacity, low capacity, or revolver.

I've found that very few people are actually willing to test themself in a competitive environment and find out how bad they really are. They're generally satisfied that if they can hit a stationary piece of paper a few times while comfortably standing motionless in the open, then their "Doom Whomper Hollow Tip Golden Black SXTVZX" self defense ammo will automatically take down an attacker like a heat seeking missle

Ranger Roberts
January 4, 2014, 09:34 AM
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it.

I still can't figure out what the OP was referring to when he used the term "orcs".

MrBorland
January 4, 2014, 09:57 AM
They're generally satisfied that if they can hit a stationary piece of paper a few times while comfortably standing motionless in the open, then their "Doom Whomper Hollow Tip Golden Black SXTVZX" self defense ammo will automatically take down an attacker like a heat seeking missle

+1. Too often, it seems, I see (and read forum comments from) people satisfied with "combat accuracy" without regard for "combat speed". They'd do themselves a favor by combining the two, and competition, though not SD training, is a good way toward that end.


I still can't figure out what the OP was referring to when he used the term "orcs".

From Tolkien's Hobbit & Lord of the Rings. Orcs (http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130226015606/lotr/images/b/b7/295332_421581947923217_1235487333_n.jpg) are bad dudes. But in the movies, surprisingly easy to kill, it seems.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 4, 2014, 09:59 AM
I've found that very few people are actually willing to test themself in a competitive environment and find out how bad they really are. They're generally satisfied that if they can hit a stationary piece of paper a few times while comfortably standing motionless in the open, then their "Doom Whomper Hollow Tip Golden Black SXTVZX" self defense ammo will automatically take down an attacker like a heat seeking missle
^^^^^!
Word. I'm not into "competetion" in the traditional sense but I'm all about competing against myself to see that I can shoot while moving at realistic targets and *hit* repeatedly while I'm doing it. Range time is fine working on breath control, trigger, sight alignment and overall firearm familiarity but I worry that folks go to the range 4X a year and stand X amount of feet from a paper target and shoot slow fire bulls eye and then load up a high cap 9mm and carry it with Zombie Death Bomb ammo and expect that this will protect them in a fight.

Any training is better than none but I think many are lulled into a dangerous sense of themselves with the high cap 9 mentality. I see so many of them at the range shooting the "pistol Du Jour" slowly, badly, and without a care. I guess if they sleep better then it is a good thing but I worry about where the extra bullets go if they really have to perform in a life or death fight.

VooDoo

Ankeny
January 4, 2014, 10:00 AM
EVERYONE I watch is shooting and missing, whether they're shooting rapidly or slowly, high capacity, low capacity, or revolver. That has also been my experience with novice shooters. The capacity of a handgun has no effect on the ability to develop shooting skills. Yeah, I know the point is some folks feel like the more bullets they can spray in the direction of an assailant (as opposed to aiming) the better off they are. Mathematically, there could actually be some merit to that. :evil:

I suppose it's nice that we all go back and forth on the topics of training, caliber, mag capacity, etc. But I still believe it is better to be armed (as long as you are safe) than to be unarmed. My brother is a good example. I bought him a 9mm Shield for him to take along when he travels. He knows the basics of safety, and he has shot the gun enough to be familiar with it. That's about it. Still, there are those (even on this forum) who would have me believe he is more of a danger to himself, his family, and society in general being armed than if he were unarmed. :banghead:

CraigC
January 4, 2014, 10:36 AM
IMHO, a great many shooters place way too much importance on capacity. Let's be realistic, a lot of shooters are just blasting away at the range and are satisfied with what many of us would consider poor to mediocre results. Like it or not, action movies have played a huge role in the general public's perception of firearms and their use.

No, I don't believe capacity is a bad thing, in and of itself but improperly used, it 'can' lead to bad habits. The more people have, the more the tend to use. Unless properly trained to resist the urge.

Folks also get really defensive about this, as the reaction to this post will indicate.

MrBorland
January 4, 2014, 10:42 AM
some folks feel like the more bullets they can spray in the direction of an assailant (as opposed to aiming) the better off they are. Mathematically, there could actually be some merit to that.

Maybe, at least with regards to one's own personal safety. But let's not forget that one's responsible for every round they shoot, including those that miss their intended target and hit something (or someone) else.

buck460XVR
January 4, 2014, 11:33 AM
I like high capacity handguns.

Not certain, but it might have something to do with my best friend and I getting jumped by 14 hoodlums in a dark alley many years ago in DC.


Stayin' outta dark alleys in D.C. will go a heck of a lot farther at keeping you safe from 14 hoodlums than a high capacity handgun. More important for SD than round count is awareness of your surroundings and not putting yourself in a scenario to make you an easy target.

For the average person, capacity of SD/HD firearms is as subjective as caliber or platform. Use what you are comfortable with, you have proficiency with and has proven to be reliable.

DT Guy
January 4, 2014, 01:05 PM
This sounds to me like stereotypical armchair reasoning; those who actually DO this for a living tend to prefer carrying as many rounds as practical, both in-weapon and on-body.

Do the Seals, Delta, Rangers carry M-1 Garands so they don't 'spray and pray'? No, they carry high-caps.

I've never met anyone yet who was involved in a gunfight who thought, "Damn, I wish I didn't have all this extra ammo!"

98Redline
January 4, 2014, 01:18 PM
+1

While I don't subscribe to the "spray and pray" philosophy, the ability to use suppression fire has real value.

In an armed conflict my #1 goal is to come out of it alive. I am not a Seal, Ranger, or Operator. I don't have a mission to fulfill other than staying alive. If that means trading a single COM hit for suppressive fire that gets the bad guys moving away from me and allows me to seek cover or maneuver to safety, I will take it.

I will say that judging your ability to hit based on static shooting at a bullseye target, regardless of the range, is a really poor indicator of your competency in a real SD situation. You would be much better served participating is something like ICORE, or IPSC to work on your ability to draw, move, and shoot as well as manage your firearm. Static range work may be great for a hunting situation, but generally during a SD situation people are moving and shooting simultaneously.

SharpsDressedMan
January 4, 2014, 02:47 PM
I have a really bad feeling about "suppressive fire". Few civilians carry enough ammo for anything like that, and don't get extra ammo airdropped too often. You want to suppress the opposition? Deliver one or two well placed shots, wounding or dropping #1 and/or #2, and that will go further than missing a lot. God forbid that any of us shall be confronted by even three or four assailants, but a fast, accurate delivery of shots could turn even that around really fast, as it has, on occasion, in the past.

mljdeckard
January 4, 2014, 03:10 PM
And while it may well be true that just showing a gun will often end the emergency, one certainly shouldn't count on it. If I thought that showing a gun was a reliable way to end the fight, I wouldn't carry any ammo at all. I will take it a step further, I wouldn't carry a REAL GUN at all.

I think what the OP says is somewhat true, just not to the degree and frequency he seems to think it is. Yes there are shooters who rely too much on the idea of having more shots. But there are also the rest of us, who evolve either through training, experience, or both, to the point where we learn that shooting fundamentals are the most important thing regardless of which gun you use. I think the mistake a lot of us make, is to think everyone should do the same thing to the same extent for the save reason at I do.

I use 1911s because I like 1911s. I also have a SF-45A with 14-rd magazines I find myself carrying because I like it. I still carry a spare magazine. The main reason I don't carry it more, is that I only have a few holsters that will take the rail. MOST people think I am nuts for carrying a double-stack 1911 at all.

LeonCarr
January 4, 2014, 03:35 PM
I saw the word "Orcs" and the first thing I thought about were Killer Whales :).

I favor the high capacity handgun for everything except EDC/second gun. I like a snub nose revolver for that in case I have to fire it from a jacket pocket, pants pocket, etc.

Statistically 75% of people shot with a handgun live. Everyone who carries a handgun for a living or self defense should fully expect to shoot more than once if involved in a deadly force situation. That, and the high probability of multiple assailants (Hopefully no one else on this board has to encounter 14 people like DammitBoy did, especially in a criminal's heaven like DC), are two good reasons to have plenty of rounds on tap.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

krupparms
January 4, 2014, 04:16 PM
I think it just comes down to what you feel comfortable with! You can always carry as many spare mag.s as you feel you need! I carry my S&W, S.D.9 . It has 17 in the pistol & 2 spare 16 rd. mag.s on my belt. I hope I never need all that! (But life is like a box of chocolates,you never know what you'll get! As Forrest Gumps mama said!) Training helps but it will never cover everything. It never hurts to have rounds left over.

HammsBeer
January 4, 2014, 06:49 PM
What I want to carry, and what I actually carry are two different things. I'd prefer a 20 round full size pistol, but am not dilligent enough to carry that weight and bulk all day every day.

As far as full capacity shooters, I think it's more about younger shooters and the image of a macho full size full capacity gun blasting away. Those with more years and experience know that accurate hits, not quantity of shots, ussually makes the difference in most shootings.

Armor Snail
January 4, 2014, 07:12 PM
I might be thinking in different definitions of "high capacity" magazines than the OP, but I know the 20 and 32 round Mec Gar mags that fit the S&W 59 series auto loaders throw off how the gun balances, and if I'm using one, my groups open up noticeably. But the factory 12 and 15 round mags, which I do not consider to be hi-cap, I shoot with just fine.

Is a 17 round mag in a Glock 17 a hi-cap? I say no. Its the standard.

So, if that same G17 is being shot poorly, it could be for any number of reasons. The 'respawn' crowd is often guilty of spray an pray shooting, especially if they aren't buying the ammo.


I'm not a competition shooter, so if I can reliably put rounds on target at 15 yards, I'm happy. That target being the size of the average human torso from collar bone to belly button.

I am able to accomplish this with every gun and every magazine I own.

Also, I really don't care about the other guys shooting as long as he or she is doing so safely. I don't care if they can't hit the broadside of the barn from the inside, not my concern.

My 7+1 might be more than I ever need, but I still carry an extra 7.

Truth there.

JohnKSa
January 4, 2014, 07:26 PM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters.At the ranges I go to, most folks are, at best, lousy shooters, and that's true no matter what kind of handgun they are shooting at the moment.Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.Doesn't matter how skilled you are at shooting paper--even at long distances. When someone starts shooting at you, it has a surprisingly deleterious effect on your ability to make solid hits.

As nearly as I can tell, it has a lot to do with the fact that: "remain unperforated" tends to rocket to the top of one's priority list while things like "carefully align the sights", "firmly press the trigger straight back", "take a proper grip on the pistol" and "assume a solid shooting stance" seem to drop down on the list to a position somewhere above: "stop screaming like a little girl" but usually below: "try not to soil yourself".

DammitBoy
January 4, 2014, 08:03 PM
Stayin' outta dark alleys in D.C. will go a heck of a lot farther at keeping you safe from 14 hoodlums than a high capacity handgun. More important for SD than round count is awareness of your surroundings and not putting yourself in a scenario to make you an easy target.

I learned several things that evening at the tender age of 19.

1) don't get really drunk, you become a target
2) stay under the street lights when walking back to your car from the bar
3) some people mean to do you harm
4) sometimes there will be fourteen of them

I carry a Para P14-45 and a spare mag. I can keep it in the eights.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 4, 2014, 09:38 PM
... seem to drop down on the list to a position somewhere above: "stop screaming like a little girl" but usually below: "try not to soil yourself".

I only have been shot at once in my life and this is exactly how I remember it. :what: :eek:

I'm stealing this one. It's perfect. :cool:

VooDoo

KenW.
January 4, 2014, 09:50 PM
There are times when I think I'd be "under gunned" with just my .22 Mag derringer. That's when I'll take a 5, 13, or 16 shot gun instead.

beeenbag
January 4, 2014, 09:54 PM
Why is it you can't be a decent shot AND carry a double stack firearm?

Double Naught Spy
January 4, 2014, 11:30 PM
beenbag, I think the OP made it clear. Double stack carriers generally have poor mindset and have reasoned out that if they have more ammo, then they don't have to be good shooters. The OP has strange logic.

Here is another example. First he states that ...
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it.

Of course, mere presence resulting in conflict resolution has NOTHING to do with marksmanship. Then he notes

Spray and pray does not work.

If mere presence and ability to use a gun works 90% of the time, then you can dang sure bet that shooting at folks, whether you hit them or not, is going to work some of the time as well. In fact, there are numerous cases where home intruders, store robbers, etc. have all been repelled by a person shooting at them, often rapid fire (proverbial spray and pray) and quite effectively causing immediate evacuation of the bad guys from the location. In short, spray and pray most definitely can work as demonstrated by the fact that it has worked over and over again in the past. I would not want to count on it to work and I would not want to be spraying bullets haphazardly and praying they didn't hit the wrong person. Even so, the statement that spray and pray does not work is untrue as it is stated. It may not work all the time, but then again, shooting a person doesn't seem to work all the time either.

DSAPT9
January 5, 2014, 04:07 AM
I to have seen many at the range just throw lead down range this includes folks shooting 38s, high cap 9 and 1911 45s so I do not feel it is the gun but the person with the gun not honing their skills.

I have also seen guys who shoot bull’s-eye and can put 5 rounds down range all touching and then not hit the x or center mass once in a move and shoot competition or are so slow trying to get the best place shot they come in last because of time. Not the gun but the shooter.

When I first started to carry at age 21 I had a colt trooper 4 in 357 with a shoulder rig then I went to a 1911 full size then a commander. At this time I shot competition and the 1911 was the top gun but after picking up a Smith 659 9mm and modifying it for competition I had to learn to shoot more accurate as it was classed as a minor caliber and if you did not hit the center you got docked extra points totally killing your score but because of the 14 and 15 rd mags I could get through a stage without a mag change speeding up my time.

Move up to today I carry the Glock 19 not only for its 15 rd mag and its reliability (both good qualities) but because it fits my hand and I shoot it dang well. Like many here I was in the military and learned that it is better to have extra ammo than not enough so I also carry 2 17 rd g17 mags as back up.

Will I ever need all this ammo in a civilian situation? I hope I will never need my gun for any situation other than fun but times are a changing and I would rather be prepared than not.

So to make a long story even longer, it’s like saying if you hunt with a rifle that holds 30 rounds for some reason you’re going to shoot the deer all thirty times. Yet every hunter I know with a bolt action that holds 4 to 5 rounds also carries 10 to 20 extra rounds in their fanny/back pack. I say skip the fanny/back pack and carry 1 30 rd mag. I still only need 1 shot maybe two at most to do the job.

But if I am ever attacked by a herd of zombie deer I will be prepared.

Just my thoughts

jp1944
January 5, 2014, 09:09 AM
A touch of clarification is needed here to help with perspective.
In the early to mid 70's I was working on a doctorate in wound ballistics and used to go to the morgue of a large city to evaluate the differences between the 'macroscopic and microscopic' trauma caused by handgun projectiles. About 75% of the cadavers were taken out with small caliber 'ball' ammo. I over 18 months I saw ONE person taken out with a large bore - one.

When one sees some with multiple hits one thinks adrenalin first and last as to why the person remains mobile. I learned a good bit but left this field when offered a good sum to switch to cardiac electrophysiology. Kids and bills to pay. Nuff said.

I shot bullseye until my first multi-level spine surgery left my right hand with a tremor. Ego wise I could not go from shooting in the low 90's to the high 70's on a bullseye range - too small a man I guess. Going to shooting with two hands was almost a sin to me as a bullseye shooter.

After this I shot mainly .44M as this is what I hunted with be it ground hog or boar. In the winter I would go to a range where you weren't freezing your butt off and this is when I first observed the high capacity pistols being fired at very rapid rates. What surprised me more was seeing how few holes there were in the target.

I should have re-stated my initial comment to this: MOST folks with high capacity units never learn the basics of focus on the front sight, trigger squeeze and repeatability. Notice I said most and not all.

I see young adults in the range with NO safety etiquette, no understanding of what is safe handling etc. How are they allowed on the range?

I have recently been a civilian instructor for one of the Sheriff's Depts in PA and we offer shooting courses for folks with CCW permits and it is consistent that most are, at best, very frightening to watch - many have NEVER shot a hand gun. When we get into the 'move and shoot' controlled drills things get even more 'interesting' and the high capacity folks just seem to dry to dump as much as possible onto the targets they are called to hit. It doesn't work for most of these folks. If you are the instructor 'moving' the shooter or the instructor calling which target to shoot the high capacity folks can get all of your attention.

I ADMIT that we get few trained shooters with high capacity units and the ones who are trained are quite good but very rare indeed.

Capacity will never compensate for competence. I thank all for their comments and their courtesy.

SDGlock23
January 5, 2014, 10:38 AM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters. I think the mind set is you don't have to be competent of you have a lot of rounds - poor mindset.
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target. It is also the will to do what must be done and that will is immediately and unalterably observed by those who would do you and yours harm - never forget this fact.
Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.
Spray and pray does not work.

While I do agree that anyone who might want high capacity to "spray and pray" in order to make up for poor accuracy might not be playing with a full deck, I would say to those who can shoot good that more capacity is always better.

I shoot a lot of things and have owned a lot of different kinds of handguns. I like Glocks the best and yes, have some high cap magazines too. But I'm a good shot, I can shoot a Glock as well or better than anything else out there. I don't see extra capacity as anything but good, it just gives me more opportunity should I need it, but I don't have the "spray and pray" mindset, I make each shot count as I'm accountable for every bullet that leaves my weapon. Will I need 16+ rounds? I hope not, but I have the bullets there should I need them, however unlikely.

And for what it's worth, in most real life instances of having to use your weapon against someone, it's much easier to miss than you might think, a 50% hit ratio is considered above average. A guy over on arfcom was shot 3-4 times several years ago (in the chest, and in both hands) with a 5 shot .38 and managed to miss the bad guy from a distance of approx 6-7 ft twice using his .45 1911. He did hit the BG once though, in the hand. The BG had a much better hit ratio than the good guy, so don't count on them missing, most "career" criminals are pretty good at what they do.

M2 Carbine
January 5, 2014, 11:02 AM
Why is it you can't be a decent shot AND carry a double stack firearm?
This is the way to go.


It doesn't matter how many rounds are in the gun. If you can't QUICKLY put them all in the target where you want them, you lose.

Personally I have a very simple scoring system. 100% or Zero.
All hits where I want them is 100% and I live.
One miss is Zero and I'm dead.


For instance,
I do a lot of low light/dark laser and laser/light practice (home range).

A favorite exercise is fast firing while I'm randomly moving around from 5 yards to 15 yards.
I'll fire a hundred or more rounds at a time.

This steel target is typical. COM is about between the black lines. You seldom miss when using a laser in low light.

While the hits on this target are pretty decent, the score is still Zero. The hit on the right line is unacceptable. Suppose that was my first shot and the bad guy didn't miss me with his first shot? I probably wouldn't be shooting the next 99 rounds.

It doesn't matter how big your magazine is if you can't get a good hit with the first shot or two you will probably be dead.

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/SR22laserlowlight25to5yards_zpsd8505c92.jpg (http://s1183.photobucket.com/user/Bell-helicopter-407/media/SR22laserlowlight25to5yards_zpsd8505c92.jpg.html)

Mike1234567
January 5, 2014, 11:43 AM
I get really tired of these threads so I won't comment other than to state three things: 1. I never panic, 2. I practice fairly often and am fairly accurate/consistent, 3. I have fairly high capacity magazines in my HD firearms.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 5, 2014, 12:07 PM
This is how I see it. Having more ammo is best. If the bad guy has 10 rounds and I have 20 I have the advantage.

buck460XVR
January 5, 2014, 12:23 PM
I get really tired of these threads


Similar to "which gun for bear", "dumb clerk at Wal-Mart", "dumb guy at the range" and "what 5.....no 10....no 40, guns does every shooter NEED!":rolleyes:



Comparing SD CWC to Navy Seals or the LAPD Swat Team firearm needs is kinda like comparing what car we need to get to work as opposed to what a Indy car driver needs to win. What an individual needs and what they are comfortable with, can and many times are, two different things. What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon. If the bad guy has 20 rounds and you have 40, means nuttin' if you are so hypnotized by the text messages on your I-Phone, he gets the jump on you. Again, being aware of your surroundings, not walking into scenarios that endanger you and making yourself a victim and being prepared to use what you have on you proficiently will mean more than how many rounds in the mag or cylinder.

Mastodon
January 5, 2014, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by Mike1234567 View Post
I get really tired of these threads

Similar to "which gun for bear", "dumb clerk at Wal-Mart", "dumb guy at the range" and "what 5.....no 10....no 40, guns does every shooter NEED!"

Comparing SD CWC to Navy Seals or the LAPD Swat Team firearm needs is kinda like comparing what car we need to get to work as opposed to what a Indy car driver needs to win. What an individual needs and what they are comfortable with, can and many times are, two different things. What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon. If the bad guy has 20 rounds and you have 40, means nuttin' if you are so hypnotized by the text messages on your I-Phone, he gets the jump on you. Again, being aware of your surroundings, not walking into scenarios that endanger you and making yourself a victim and being prepared to use what you have on you proficiently will mean more than how many rounds in the mag or cylinder.

^^ +1

Jframe.38
January 5, 2014, 12:39 PM
I prefer to have my 'personal defense weapon' actually on my person instead of in my car. As such I choose to use my range time practicing with a not quite as cool subcompact that translates into real life practicality instead of throwing lead downrange with a double stack or big bore that would sit in my car should I choose to carry that instead.

browningguy
January 5, 2014, 01:22 PM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters.

Seems like a wrong statement to start with, or you just shoot with the wrong type of people. The guys I shoot 3 gun with are all slightly better than "fair" shots, and all use hicap pistols. In production class for IDPA everyone I see shooting is using a hicap, and many of them are much better than "fair".

If you think you are better than people who shoot hicap guns show up at a match then tell us about it. I'm sure you could convince them to let you shoot a 1911 or revolver against the production guns to see how it goes.

DammitBoy
January 5, 2014, 01:39 PM
What the average guy that walks drunk thru dark D.C. alleys at 2 a.m. in the morning needs will be different than me walking my dog in a small Midwestern town at 5 in the afternoon...

What I needed was a life lesson and those young criminals gave me a very painful one I'll never forget. Their weapon of choice was baseball bats. My friend and I received multiple concussions and contusions as well as broken jaws. I spent a week in the hospital from a stab wound that grazed a kidney.

Of course, in DC, it was illegal to have any firearm - but if I'd had any firearm, I'm pretty sure those kids (the average age was 14-16) would have broke like a covey of quail at the sight of a firearm being produced.

In retrospect, there was no excuse for me putting myself in that situation. I could have taken a cab from our hotel to the Georgetown club/bar scene area. Instead of finding a free parking spot 3 blocks from the strip, I could have paid $5.00 to park on the strip. I could have consumed less alcohol. I could have traveled with a larger group.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have survived that lesson.

460Kodiak
January 5, 2014, 01:52 PM
The bottom line is that you should be as heavily armed with as many rounds on hand as you can carry, and in a gun you shoot well, and in the most powerful cartridge you can shoot effectively and ensure overpeneteration is minimized, and concealment is achieved, if you are CCing.

The original statement is filled with incorrect assumptions that you probably wont need lots of ammo.

A statement that includes the words "probably", "normally", or "in most cases" are all statements reflecting an average situation. Well, where I live, normal does not included getting jumped. The reality is that an average day does not include an attack. A day that does include an attack will also have averages and "normal" numbers like 1 or 2 perps. But as Damitboy pointed out, there are always outliars on the ends of the bell curve. To assume you do not need to be prepared for those extreme situations is folly.

Also, IMO, unless you are being shot at, you have no reasonable excuse for shooting at someone at 25 yards for self defense. The only possible reason I can think of is that you are witnessing someone else being attacked. But if there is a victim being attacked, are you going to try and shoot a perp off of them at 25 yards? Doubt it. I guess maybe a charging animal attack might warant it.

RBid
January 5, 2014, 01:56 PM
1. High cap pistols are being fired more than anything else, so it is going to be more common to see someone shooting those poorly than it will be to see people shooting subs, revolvers, or 1911s poorly. Nearly everyone I see at the range shoots badly, including guys with 1911s and SA revolvers.

2. Personally, my preference is to have as many advantages as I can reasonably maintain. I have training, I practice live and dry, I carry quality defensive rounds, I carry a spare magazine, I carry the same weapon every day, and I practice and train using the same firearm. I chose a 'high cap' pistol because I want to be able to put as many rounds in the target as it takes, NOT because I want to blot out the sun and hope something hits.

3. The people who throw out this 'high cap = spray and pray' stuff generally tend to be guys clinging to 5-8 shot weapons (which are fine), and seeking to somehow infer that their choice is indicative of a higher degree of proficiency. I suspect that it is universally true that they would be less accurate at any speed than Frank Proctor, Larry Vickers, Pat Macnamara, Shrek, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Steve Fisher, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Mike Panonne, Todd Green, Paul Howe, etc... and these guys almost always carry 'high cap' pistols.


Again, the winning strategy is to give yourself as many advantages as possible (or reasonable).

CDW4ME
January 5, 2014, 03:07 PM
If someone typically carried a 5 shot snub, they might consider a Glock 26 to be high capacity.
However 10 rounds is not "high capacity" except in NYC.

Having extra rounds available doesn't imply lack of skill or that those rounds will be fired.

Ankeny
January 5, 2014, 04:02 PM
I suspect that it is universally true that they would be less accurate at any speed than Frank Proctor, Larry Vickers, Pat Macnamara, Shrek, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Steve Fisher, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Mike Panonne, Todd Green, Paul Howe, etc... and these guys almost always carry 'high cap' pistols. FWIW, I know some top level "defensive pistol instructors" that carry a Glock 26. I carried a Glock 19 for years, now my primary carry gun is a 1911 in .38 Super Comp, or a S&W Shield. My sciatic nerve really appreciates the Shield.

Walkalong
January 5, 2014, 05:15 PM
To blame shooter behavior on mag capacity is too simplistic, as well as erroneous, IMO, and cannot be proven one way or the other.

Most folks don't shoot handguns particularly well, and folks who have never shot them under stress are very likely to struggle to shoot effectively the first time, or two.

If you do not have any experience trying to operate under very high adrenaline rushes, it will be double tough to shoot accurately.

These things are true regardless of mag capacity.

It sounds like an anti gun argument. "High capacity" mags are inherently dangerous, make people shoot wildly, and need to be banned.

Magazine capacity is irrelevant. Smart, responsible gun ownership and subsequent use is what is needed, regardless if it is a 5 shot revolver or a 19 shot auto.

tomrkba
January 5, 2014, 05:27 PM
You need to stop and think. Some people are proficient.

SharpsDressedMan
January 5, 2014, 06:04 PM
I understand what the OP is saying, and I have observed the same. At public ranges, where you get an overview of the general armed populace, you NOTICE the usually younger people blasting with their (probably) new handguns, and often they are attracting attention because they are having fun, blasting away. It would be easy to lump such shooting into the category of "young people with hi-caps can't hit what they are shooting at". Not saying this is the final word, or applies to all, but when we generalize, I think most of us can say we have witnessed this, and often it goes along with not placing importance on making every shot count when practicing. Does a hi-cap gun make people waste shots, or encourage poor marksmanship? Maybe, a little. But then a thinking man grows out of it, and some go on to become better shots.

buck460XVR
January 5, 2014, 07:00 PM
Lotta times at the range I will shoot fast and furious with my 1911 just cause I can. I am not practicing for SD/HD but having fun sendin' a bunch of lead downrange in a short amount of time. Odds are, I've given some folks the idea I can't hit squat. Then again, I will practice slowly with my hunting revolvers picking off clay pigeons on the berm @ 100 yards. I am also not practicin' for SD, just having fun. Odds are some folks think I'm a crack shot. Both are extremes and neither is demonstrative of my proficiency with my SD/HD firearms. Neither matters to me, cause I care less of what others think of my shooting. I am happy with my proficiency with my SD/HD firearms and am comfortable with their ammo capacity. I'm really the only one I need to please with either.

M2 Carbine
January 5, 2014, 07:04 PM
Then, some years ago, there was the old Black fellow in Houston, when asked,
"How come you shot the robber 12 times with a 6 shot revolver?"
he answered,
I reloaded.

Ankeny
January 5, 2014, 07:42 PM
I just remembered a little anecdote from several years back. One of the trainers for our county SO asked me to set up some "realistic" IDPA type scenarios for his deputies. He wanted to give them a break from the typical qualification type shooting. We had rooms to clear, seated draws while eating a doughnut (yeah I really did that), shooting from a car, and so forth.

After we got things set up, we waited for some deputies to filter in. We had them scheduled 2-3 at a time. While I was waiting, I stuck my Les Baer in a kydex holster and started shooting some Bill Drills at ten yards. My times were running in the 1.75-2.0 second ranges. That's sub one second draws and mid teen splits, with some splits in the low teens. I would imagine 95% of the hits were in the A-Box. I kid you not, one of the instructors for the SO asked me to stop shooting as the deputies arrived, spouting something about the "spray and pray" attitude that they slip into when they go into hose mode. He didn't even want them to hear me shooting that fast. Go figure.

Justin
January 5, 2014, 10:11 PM
My experience in over 35 years of shooting, hunting exclusively with handguns and watching those on the range has been, for the most part, those with high capacity shoot rapidly and miss. Sorry, but it is a truism - kinda' like a laser effect - you never learn sight picture and squeeze.

I doubt that the people with high-cap handguns are really any more incompetent than those with 5-shot revolvers, they just get to make a lot more noise. Plenty of Limited Class and Open Class USPSA and 3 Gun shooters are perfectly capable of making accurate hits with high capacity handguns.

As for your standard of competency:

In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target.

I find them to be both far too strict and wholly inadequate for people who are going to be using a firearm for self defense. First off, hardly ever will a person use a handgun for self defense at a distance of 25 yards. Most defensive encounters are going to be at very close range, and on a human-sized target. Furthermore, your requirements for accuracy are completely unreasonable given that the size of the 8 ring on an International 50 Meter Free Pistol target is 5.9 inches.

What you're essentially saying is that you don't consider someone to be competent with a handgun unless they're capable of hitting a target roughly the size of a face at a distance of 25 yards.

Such a level of accuracy is great if you're shooting a local 50 Meter Free pistol match being held on a sunny Saturday afternoon with static targets where you can spend two or three minutes in quiet contemplation before lifting your $2,000 Pardini Free Pistol off of the table and lining up a shot before pulling a trigger with a weight measured in mere ounces, but holds little in common with what we know defensive situations usually look like, which is close range, very fast, in the dark, and with a target that's going to be aggressively moving and trying to kill you.

What I get from your posts is a misplaced understanding of what acceptable accuracy for defensive situations calls for tinged with a bit of the smugness that often accompanies people who only compete in precision events and haven't ever attended a defensive course with the likes of Magpul Dynamics or Pat Rogers, or have taken part in a shooting competition that tests skills other than static shooting with tremendously generous time limits.

mljdeckard
January 6, 2014, 12:12 AM
I just looked at the Magpul dynamics page, I think I need to get their videos to use while I try to line up one of their courses.

USAF_Vet
January 6, 2014, 09:06 AM
Regardless of how many rounds you have, speed + accuracy =/= accuracy + speed.

A lot of people who like turning money into noise do not understand that shooting fast will not teach them how to shoot more accurately.

I've turned enough money into noise to know better.

Ankeny
January 6, 2014, 10:17 AM
A lot of people who like turning money into noise do not understand that shooting fast will not teach them how to shoot more accurately. But you have to push the envelope and shoot fast to learn how to improve your accuracy at speed. The idea of shoot accurately and speed will naturally come is total BS.

buck460XVR
January 6, 2014, 10:22 AM
A lot of people who like turning money into noise do not understand that shooting fast will not teach them how to shoot more accurately.



Of course it does. That why we have speed drills. Practicing shooting fast once one learns the basics of shooting accurately, will make one more accurate at shooting fast. Not all shooting fast is spray and pray. My boys and I play all kinds of shooting games at our range. Many of those are how many hits in a given time, both moving and stationary. Years of doing these games has certainly increased our scores.

Barry the Bear
January 6, 2014, 11:08 AM
While I am in no way a "tactical" expert,Ill list some of my experiences. I served in the US Army from 2009-2012 and served one 14 month tour during operation enduring freedom.During basic at ft.benning we were issued the m16a2 and had never touched the M9 til we got to our unit. I of course had been messin with revolvers for years before the military but was wary of semis.When quals came I certified expert with both the m16 and m9 platforms.Being in a commo mos I was issued the mossberg 500 and an m9.During a patrol,we got into a skirmish and during the thick of it all i lost the 500 . I remember turning a corner and found myself face to face against an insurgent . We were both suprised to see each other, before be could shoot off whatever ak variant he was using i emptied the magazine in the berretta . I remember pulling the trigger for awhile before i realized it was empty.Now I was someone who had taken a few training classes before i shipped as well as my army training and hunting background. What im saying is there is nothing that will ever truly prepare you for that god awful day it if god forbid ever comes to you.Hunting? I love hunting ,didnt help at all over there though,training?I dont care where youve trained no training ever had you kill a fellow human being.

Mike J
January 6, 2014, 11:58 AM
My handgun with the largest magazine capacity holds 12 rounds of .40. Does that make me a spray & pray type. It is about the software not the hardware. I don't see having more ammunition as a problem though especially living in the suburbs & working in a large urban area where incidents involving multiple attackers are often reported on the news. I think the point is to strive to be as proficient as possible with whatever you use. I haven't been to an indoor range in a couple of years probably but the last time I was there most of the people I observed shot badly. Everyone doesn't spend the time & money it takes to become proficient that the folks that frequent gun forums do.

ATLDave
January 6, 2014, 12:23 PM
Barry the Bear, thanks for your service, for sharing your story, and for being so honest about the time you saw the elephant.

Barry the Bear
January 6, 2014, 12:27 PM
Perfect practice makes perfect. I remember going to my favorite range with my brother,when an older gentlemen maybe 78-80 years old came in with a folding chair and one pistol, a ruger single six and everyone including myself laughed.Ill never do that again. Every shot hit its mark ,straight and true, made me certainly feel like a certain a word.

Barry the Bear
January 6, 2014, 12:30 PM
Thank you dave

JR47
January 6, 2014, 01:59 PM
Many "high-capacity" guns are large. They don't fit everyone's hands well, and that makes them difficult to shoot accurately.

It used to be that a neighbor, a friend, or a relative would initiate the young man or woman into the shooting sports. Today, with the almost constant barrage of disapproving media talking heads, and local politicians urging prosecution, it's no longer that way.

Many people introduced themselves into the shooting game, with only books, videos, and forums to guide them. The guns that they chose were reflections of what local LEOs carried.

I am a large person at 6-03, and 285 pounds. I have what used to be called a large frame to go with that. To me, a j-frame might just as well be a toy gun. They get lost in my hands. When the large capacity guns came out, they made people like me very happy. Not because of 15-19 rounds of ammo, but because they FIT US.

I have practiced incessantly to use the "more concealable" firearms, and can do so today. However, given a possibility of a gun-fight, something that fits my hands is a much better option. Like the Para P12, P13, or P14. The FN FNP, the Ruger KP97DC, the P345, or even the new SR45. I also like the Taurus PT92 and PT100, or the Beretta M9 and Model 96.

These guns all carry lots of ammo. More importantly, they fit my hands. Actually, in practice, I usually load 5-10 rounds per magazine. Rapid fire isn't as important to me as accurate fire.

Yet, I would be lumped in with the OPs group because I carry one of those "spray-and-pray guns. Oddly, I have little trouble competing in IDPA without 50 magazines.

My usual CCW carry is a Taurus PT709. That one holds 7+1, leaving me sort of under armed for the OPs indictment.

Fact of the matter is that some of the WORST shots that I've ever seen were using small revolvers, at ranges beyond 7 yards. :banghead:

CraigC
January 6, 2014, 02:00 PM
What this all boils down to is that proficiency trumps equipment. The odds that you'll ever be in an armed confrontation are dismal at best. The odds that you'll need more than a handful of rounds is inconsequential. If it makes you feel better to carry a high capacity auto with several spare mags, that is fine. Just don't depend on the quantity of ammo in your magazines to do the work for you. Don't run somebody in the ground because they carry a five or six-shot revolver instead of a Glock with five extra magazines.


Do the Seals, Delta, Rangers carry M-1 Garands so they don't 'spray and pray'? No, they carry high-caps.
I'll bet they don't waste ammo either. And who exactly gets to choose 'what' they carry? How many new Colt 1911's did the Marine Corps just order? Have they not decided that capability outweighs capacity?

Barry the Bear
January 6, 2014, 03:07 PM
I agree with craigs point of view . I perfer a single action or double action .44 mag vs any semi auto. Why? Not that theyre better firearms but most of my exp. Is with those platforms

jp1944
January 6, 2014, 04:31 PM
GROAN !!

My wife just bought me a XDM. 3.8 in .45. I asked why and she answered, 'Why not?'

She knows not a thing about this posting at all.

Lastly, I am old BUT I shoot a lot and I am POSITIVE there are plenty of excellent shooters both accurate and safe with high capacity: of that there is no doubt. My problem is that I see the 'machine gun Mikes' out there giving me cause for pause.

If I have offended anyone I apologize sincerely.

May all stay safe and well.

gamestalker
January 6, 2014, 05:25 PM
After the forth shot I began to get concerned about only having two left in the cylinder, and no other ammo or speed loads on me.

I still carry a 6 shooter, but I now carry at least two speed loaders.

GS

Mat, not doormat
January 6, 2014, 09:01 PM
Most hand gunners are lousy shots, period. If they happen to be shooting a low cap gun, they'll miss with a few shots. If they're shooting a high cap, they'll miss with a lot of rounds. This may be more conspicuous, but the high cap isn't the cause of it.

You seem to be buying into the Jeff Cooper school of thought, that a more capable gun will somehow make a less capable shooter. Maybe the theory is that if you put too many bullets in one magazine, all the density in one place will create a gravitational anomaly, sucking the brains out of whoever holds it?

A good shooter with a low capacity gun will likely be more capable than a poor shooter with a high capacity one, true. However, a good shooter with a high capacity gun will be more capable than a good shooter with a low cap.

If you want to see this in action, go to an USPSA/IPSC match, and watch the Open and Limited Division shooters.

Mat, not doormat
January 6, 2014, 09:19 PM
Sorry, double tap.

Mike J
January 6, 2014, 09:30 PM
jp have you shot the XDm yet? If not I would be curious to know your impression of it after a range trip.

Sam1911
January 6, 2014, 09:37 PM
How many new Colt 1911's did the Marine Corps just order? Have they not decided that capability outweighs capacity?

A handful, really. Like 12,000 for a 200,000-member branch of the service. And of course, not all 12,000 will be issued for carrying, and only a very few specific Marines will get the option of carrying these.

So it probably doesn't pay to say that they decided that .45 ACP capability outweighs 9mm capacity in a significant way. That's equipping something (in reality) significantly less than 5% of Marines with the big gun. 5% of a group whos primary, secondary, and even tertiary weapons are not handguns.

kwguy
January 6, 2014, 10:24 PM
It seems to me that if you combine proficiency / training with higher capacity, then you have all the bases covered. It doesn't really need to be 'either / or'. Why not both? It seems to me that there is no downside to larger capacity, except for the size of a weapon for CCW purposes.

It's like gas in a tank. Why wouldn't you want a full tank? Even if you don't plan on driving a few hundred miles. It doesn't hurt, and you might need the gas at some point.

USAF_Vet
January 7, 2014, 01:28 AM
But you have to push the envelope and shoot fast to learn how to improve your accuracy at speed. The idea of shoot accurately and speed will naturally come is total BS.
One can learn how to shoot fast, accurately. But they need to know how to shoot accurately first.
Poor habits engrained while shooting slowly will only be exacerbated when shooting fast. Bad shooting is bad shooting and will never get better just because you shoot badly, fast.

USAF_Vet
January 7, 2014, 01:35 AM
Of course it does. That why we have speed drills. Practicing shooting fast once one learns the basics of shooting accurately, will make one more accurate at shooting fast. Not all shooting fast is spray and pray. My boys and I play all kinds of shooting games at our range. Many of those are how many hits in a given time, both moving and stationary. Years of doing these games has certainly increased our scores.
Take an unskilled, untrained shooter to the range after watching some Hollywood gun slinging blockbuster movie. Give them a gun with lots of ammo and let them proceed. They will probably shoot poorly, quickly.

Without shooting fundamentals, which are traditionally learned at a slow rate of fire, speed shooting is just spray and pray. Without the skill and accuracy, you can shoot as fast as you want but you won't improve. Or if you do, it'll be at a much slower rate than if you actually learned how to shoot accurately first.



So here is something else to chew on. When the question "what starter gun to train a kid?" the THR community often recommends single shot .22 rifles to expressly avoid speed shooting to focus on fundamentals. Now I'm hearing that fundamentals can come naturally via speed shooting? Tell me I'm misunderstanding the last two posts I've quoted a response to.

JohnBT
January 7, 2014, 07:07 AM
"It's like gas in a tank. Why wouldn't you want a full tank?"

Because I'm loaded down with 4 guys and all their surf fishing gear, coolers, chairs and beer and the last thing I need is more weight from a full tank of gas. Even aired down to 10#, driving on the beach can be tough sometimes - like after a nor'easter makes the sand fluffy and treacherous.

jp1944
January 7, 2014, 07:16 AM
I have not shot the XDM, 3.8C yet - - it is being massaged by the folks at Powder River and won't be here for about 10 days. If it is like the XDS with just the PR spring kit it will be really nice. This will be my second 'plastic' gun and I must admit the weight and ease of carry is spoiling once you get the crap trigger straightened out.

I agree with most who say the most impt thing is training. Sadly, so few take the time to focus on the front sight and squeeze. Maybe if is just a phenomenon around here in south, central PA. Dry firing etc is seen as a waste of time - go figure. There is no substitute for practice and more practice be it live or dry firing. Both are critical or so I believe from observation.

While I am a fan of big bores it has not a thing to do with Cooper, it has all to do with what experiences of others has shown, not just Cooper.

Finally, I meant not to cause controversy or angst to anyone in the initial post it was just a result of my latest trip to the range and we were shooting with one of the 'police teams'. That was ugly.

Sam1911
January 7, 2014, 07:37 AM
I agree with most who say the most impt thing is training. Sadly, so few take the time to focus on the front sight and squeeze. Maybe if is just a phenomenon around here in south, central PA. Dry firing etc is seen as a waste of time - go figure.
Dang, I'm right smack in south-central PA and shoot with plenty of phenomenal and highly accurate shooters who do a lot of dryfire and a lot of live fire practice, too.

Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong crowd! :)

460Kodiak
January 7, 2014, 08:50 AM
Getting nowhere fast................

Mike J
January 7, 2014, 10:23 AM
jp I find it interesting that your observation came after shooting with one of the police teams. I have a neighbor that has had law enforcement training. We have shot pistols together a little. Me with a XD-40 him with a Glock 23. Though he is out of it now he was a corrections officer at the time. My observation at the time was I usually shot more accurately he usually shot faster. He was kinda obsessed with shooting double taps quickly, even had the trigger on his Glock 23 lightened to about 2 1/2 pounds to make it easier. I shot it after the mod & while it was fun watching the water bottle explode when I thought about pulling the trigger I really don't think I would be comfortable carrying a defensive pistol with a trigger that light.

buck460XVR
January 7, 2014, 02:22 PM
Take an unskilled, untrained shooter to the range after watching some Hollywood gun slinging blockbuster movie. Give them a gun with lots of ammo and let them proceed. They will probably shoot poorly, quickly.

Without shooting fundamentals, which are traditionally learned at a slow rate of fire, speed shooting is just spray and pray. Without the skill and accuracy, you can shoot as fast as you want but you won't improve. Or if you do, it'll be at a much slower rate than if you actually learned how to shoot accurately first.



So here is something else to chew on. When the question "what starter gun to train a kid?" the THR community often recommends single shot .22 rifles to expressly avoid speed shooting to focus on fundamentals. Now I'm hearing that fundamentals can come naturally via speed shooting? Tell me I'm misunderstanding the last two posts I've quoted a response to.

Okay, I'll say it.....

I think you may be misunderstanding at least one of the posts you've quoted.

One of the quotes you try and refute, really mirrors just what you are trying to say.



Of course it does. That why we have speed drills. Practicing shooting fast once one learns the basics of shooting accurately will make one more accurate at shooting fast. Not all shooting fast is spray and pray. My boys and I play all kinds of shooting games at our range. Many of those are how many hits in a given time, both moving and stationary. Years of doing these games has certainly increased our scores.

DT Guy
January 7, 2014, 04:37 PM
jp, you will certainly start spraying rounds helter skelter now. All that training, for naught!

:)

The XDM is a nice gun, you'll like it, I think.


Larry

jp1944
January 7, 2014, 05:18 PM
I have LOTS of 1911's and used to carry one but they started getting heavy after my last bouts with radiation, chemo and more surgery
.
I held and XDS and felt guilty, 'damn plastic gun'. I am very old school obviously BUT I have worn the thing day into the evening and don't even know it is there. I wear it with the only IWB unit I can use - a StickyHolster which is really a cheap holster and it works great if you have no butt.

Crossbreed, Alien and a few others just hurt the hip bone and this one is great.

If the other 'plastic gun' is as easy to wear it will be interesting to see how I interchange them.

Kiln
January 7, 2014, 11:46 PM
Glock and Xdm's seem to be extremely accurately fired in competitions all over the place.

Just saw your follow up post. Think you're going to love that XDM. I liked mine so well I bought another.

Barry the Bear
January 7, 2014, 11:48 PM
By people who shoot competively and constantly practice not the average joe.

Mat, not doormat
January 8, 2014, 01:45 AM
By people who shoot competively and constantly practice not the average joe.

From what I've seen, the average Joe can't shoot a Ruger Mark III all that well, either.

It takes not just practice, but continuing practice, whether you're shooting a j-frame, a Govt Model, or a G19. If you don't learn to shoot well, and then practice regularly, it ain't gonna be pretty.

Ankeny
January 8, 2014, 09:46 AM
One can learn how to shoot fast, accurately. But they need to know how to shoot accurately first.
Poor habits engrained while shooting slowly will only be exacerbated when shooting fast. Bad shooting is bad shooting and will never get better just because you shoot badly, fast. Absolutely true enough. I am just pointing out that speed comes from pushing the envelope.

buck460XVR
January 8, 2014, 10:25 AM
I tend to see so many here using the argument that folks are using high capacity firearms to compensate for their poor shooting ability. With no evidence. In other threads I see folks here claiming folks shooting the DA/SA revolvers in SA only do so to compensate for their inability to shot DA. With no evidence. In other threads I have folks claiming I use my .460 for hunting deer because I am using the big bullet and power to compensate for my poor shooting ability. They have no idea how well the gun shoots or that the reason I use it is because of the superior accuracy of the platform. I'm thinking these folks are making all of these accusations on what they know of their own abilities and not the unknown abilities of those they are criticizing.

Kinds ironic, here I am arguing the cause for high capacity SD firearms and my EDC is a 5-shot J-Frame.

SharpsDressedMan
January 8, 2014, 01:26 PM
And the answer is...................everyone else is wrong; carry what you want!:neener:

Hometeached1
January 8, 2014, 06:00 PM
All I'm going to say is, if you can shoot accurately with a high capacity handgun, why not?

OrangePwrx9
January 8, 2014, 07:42 PM
What if "High capacity" goes the way of the dinosaur? It already has here in NY. 7 rounds is all you can legally carry in a magazine even if it'll hold 10. The 13, 15, and 17 round magazines are contraband here.

I only have a couple of 'high capacity' 9mm handguns, but, as much as I like them, their role as defense weapons has taken a serious hit. If I'm limited to 7 rounds, then something that requires a double-tap to ensure effectiveness is a poor choice. The magazine should hold .45 ACP, not 9mm.

For any serious defense needs here in NY, it's now "go big and shoot it well". Hopefully other states won't get to this point.

Sam1911
January 8, 2014, 07:47 PM
If I'm limited to 7 rounds, then something that requires a double-tap to ensure effectiveness is a poor choice.It's all a matter of placement, regardless of caliber. Even the mighty .45 isn't dramatically better than a 9mm, and two hits from either gives you a far better chance of effectiveness than one hit with the other.

Shoot whatever you can shoot best/fastest accurately.

Having said that, sure a .45 makes you feel more confident than 9mm, but it's just a feeling.

...

Oh, and the 7-round limit in the NY "SAFE" act was struck down: http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20140108/SPORTS/301080072/Outdoors-Judge-s-ruling-struck-down-7-round-SAFE-Act-limit

Mike1234567
January 8, 2014, 07:49 PM
(this thread and a million others like it)................. g-r-o-a-n..............

OrangePwrx9
January 8, 2014, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the update on the SAFE Act, Sam. Was not aware that the 7-round provision had been struck down. Hope it's gone for good and not just a delayed implementation.

Think I'll continue my quest for a .45 carry piece nonetheless.

larryh1108
January 8, 2014, 08:43 PM
The OP made a pretty general statement that many here did not appreciate. However, think about it. He is posting in a gun forum that is full of gun enthusiasts who, I believe, train more than most, hang with other shooters who are of equal ability and who are probably safer than the general shooting public. I do not feel that the OP was talking about the true gun guys that frequent these boards. However, if you look at the many threads about public gun ranges, etc, you will see a common feeling.

The majority of casual shooters out there do spray and pray, do not take practice time seriously to work on something specific and just shoot to have some fun with their buddies. Their gun handling is sloppier than ours, they don't try to work on anything specific and their main goal is to shoot as fast as possible to put as many holes in the paper as they can without trying to see how accurate they can be.

I believe his statement has credibility when you consider that the mainstream new gun owner does not take it to the level we do. Yes, many new shooters take it to the next level but many more shoot for the fun of shooting and move on to their next "fun" activity. How many people buy a gun, shoot a mag or two and put it in their drawer for years? I believe we are the anomoly, not the people who buy guns because it is the "in" thing to do.

Sam1911
January 8, 2014, 08:50 PM
Probably so, but if that's what those other guys want, what's the point of suggesting that lower capacity is just as good, or even better than high capacity?

If they just WANT to "spray and pray" then they want a gun with relatively higher capacity. Doesn't seem to be much point in suggesting that THEY buy revolvers or 1911s, if they're just looking to make noise and burn up ammo.

SFsc616171
January 8, 2014, 09:41 PM
First, I wish to denounce the use of the term "high capacity", as it was invented by those that think any firearm that discharges projectiles in the count of two or more, is a direct threat to their power over you and I.

There are 'manufacturer supplied magazines', and 'after-market' magazines, for any chosen semi-automatic firearm available. When speaking of 'high capacity' magazines, to balance the statement, what is the 'low capacity' magazine?

Look at the first true semi-auto's: Luger P-08, Colt 1911, Colt 1908. All of them average 7 rounds per magazine. In 1935, here comes the FN Browning Hi Power with a standard magazine of 13! Ergo, 'high power by 13'!

So, if a manufacturer designs a particular semi-auto with a particular number of rounds in a magazine, and has well established that design prior to Bill Clinton, what is defined as a 'high capacity magazine', for that particular piece?

USAF_Vet
January 9, 2014, 01:08 AM
Manufacturer supplied magazine, or standard magazine can be of any capacity, as designed by the manufacturer. This can vary. I've seen a few as 5, on up to 17.
Low capacity, or reduced capacity magazines can be found in states like California. A Glock 17, by design, was mean to carry 17 rounds. A low capacity, or reduced capacity magazine is available for these areas.
An enhanced, or high capacity magazine is any magazine that will function in a particular pistol, utilizing a magazine with a higher capacity than what was shipped from the manufacturer. Example: Glock 17 using a 32 round extended magazine.

ATLDave
January 9, 2014, 11:14 AM
First, I wish to denounce the use of the term "high capacity", as it was invented by those that think any firearm that discharges projectiles in the count of two or more, is a direct threat to their power over you and I.

I understand the sentiment, but manufacturers were touting the high capacity of some firearms long before the AWB or other attempts to control magazine size. And the point that some guns are designed to hold more rounds than others is irrelevant. It's like saying that there's no such thing as a "fast car" because Ferraris were designed to be fast and Ford panel vans are not. "High" is a somewhat vague, but entirely valid, concept. A Ferrari with its standard engine is a fast car, and a Glock 17 with its standard magazine has a high capacity magazine.

The proper objection is not to the term, but to the claim that regulation of that characteristic is desirable. Equally, while a few states have banned or restricted guns with flash hiders, we don't quibble with that term, pointing out that the flash is still there and visible, that some guns were designed from the beginning to have them, etc. We just point out that there's no decent public policy justification for the ban, and nothing approaching a sufficient justification for the partial loss of an important right. When we waste time on semantics - particularly when we have the weaker argument - we persuade nobody who does not already agree. I humbly suggest we save our credibility and quit quibbling.

strambo
January 9, 2014, 12:02 PM
It is simple. Most average gun owners can't shoot a pistol very well at all. Double stack auto pistols are the most popular. Ergo, the majority of poor pistol shooting folks at a range will be doing so with double stack autos. Hand 'em all revolvers and their ability will still be poor.

SC Shooter
January 10, 2014, 10:47 AM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters. I think the mind set is you don't have to be competent of you have a lot of rounds - poor mindset.
In about 90% of all situations with 'orcs' precious little is needed beyond the mere presence of a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target. It is also the will to do what must be done and that will is immediately and unalterably observed by those who would do you and yours harm - never forget this fact.
Once you can do this time after time, the 25yd target, you realize that the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence. You can hit, they will miss.
Spray and pray does not work.
This may be nothing more than the fact that the high capacity weapon does not fit their hand. If that is the case, their accuracy, their speed, etc. will be adversley effected. Having rather small hands myself, I have found that to be the case. A few accurate shots, is a better defense that a lot of loud noise and missed shots.

benEzra
January 11, 2014, 02:17 PM
I have seen many folks with high capacity handguns and, to be honest, most are, at best, fair shooters.
Most shooters of 6-shot .38's are also fair shooters. That doesn't mean a fair shooter will be better off with less reserve capacity.

Under stress, a lot of people revert to unaimed/badly directed shooting when trying to shoot fast, regardless of what they are shooting. In revolver days, plenty of police officers "sprayed and prayed" with 6-shot revolvers and shot them empty without hitting anything. The solution to this isn't to encourage low capacity across the board, but rather to teach people how to shoot quickly under stress regardless of what they're shooting.

I personally find that I can shoot my 18-shot S&W 5906 slowfire just as accurately as I can shoot a 6-shot revolver or an 9-shot semiauto, and I suspect that's true across the board.

I think the mind set is you don't have to be competent if you have a lot of rounds - poor mindset.
The converse premise, that if you are competent then capacity is irrelevant, is also poor mindset IMO.

a firearm and the ability to use it. I define this, ability as staying on the 8 ring or better at 25 yds using and International Free Pistol Target.
Here is the target of which you speak, I think:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=193422&stc=1&d=1389464833

How quickly, from the holster, can you get the *first* hit anywhere inside the 6-ring at 3 to 7 yards, while moving sideways, moving to cover, or backing up, one or two handed? And how quickly can you put followup rounds into that circle?

Unless an assailant stops and announces his intentions from 75 feet away, then patiently waits for his intended victim to retrieve their defensive tool of choice and draw a fine bead on his center mass, the ability to shoot an 8-ring or better group slowfire at 75 feet doesn't necessarily translate to defensive competence in all (or most) situations. The ability to shoot well at a distance is certainly a useful tool in the toolbox, and is arguably the first step toward competence up close, but having *adequate* accuracy with decisive speed is more important in the 3 to 7 yard zone.

Spray and pray does not work.
Agreed. But neither does stationary slowfire target shooting, in close. If your plan is to remain stationary, draw, and shoot, and a person of average, middling fitness pulls a knife on you from 21 feet away, that knife is only 1.5 seconds from your heart. Train accordingly; remaining stationary isn't going to work, and slowfire isn't going to work.

For the average shooter, I think a very good wake-up call is to shoot a local IDPA/USPSA match with your current carry gear, and see how you do on the clock under stress at close-range targets. I thought I was a pretty good shooter until I shot my first USPSA match, and then I realized I had a whole lot to learn, and still do.

the difference between 13 rds and 7 is of no consequence
The difference is of *immense* consequence if, due to movement/adrenaline/stress/circumstances/multiple assailants, a violent assailant is still trying to kill you after 7 rounds have been expended. The point of higher capacity isn't "spray and pray", it is reserve, in case Murphy's law happens.

For LE, the importance of reserve capacity was brought home in a tragic way by the Newhall shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre), in which two officers emptied their 6-shot revolvers at a couple of violent felons and were murdered while reloading behind cover. Capacity wasn't the only issue here---a lot of other lessons were learned from this tragedy with regard to training, ease of reloading, situational awareness, and felony-stop tactics, but the fact remains that a couple of officers with 6-shot handguns ran out of ammo in a firefight and were killed. Being limited to 6 shots did not make them hyper-accurate; it merely rendered them temporarily helpless after 6 shots. That is why officers now carry guns with a lot more reserve capacity, that can be reloaded *very* quickly, even though tactics and training have also improved.

Having said that, my daily CCW is an S&W 3913LS that holds 8+1, and an off-side carrier that holds two more 8-round magazines. But for HD, particularly since nobody sleeps with a mag carrier, I would grab either the 5906 or the AR.

If you enjoyed reading about "high capacity is it . ." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!