40 GAP subcompact, why not?


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Josey
March 30, 2004, 01:09 AM
I was wondering if Glock might create a 40 GAP. I could see some possibilities for very small framed, short barell autos. A sub 3" XD with one in the tube and a five round mag?

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Croyance
March 30, 2004, 01:41 AM
I believe a .40 GAP is called the 9 mm. Look at the .45 GAP compared to the .45 ACP.
And this is kind of a semi-auto thing.

Josey
March 30, 2004, 03:25 AM
If you shorten the 40 case and load itto +P+ pressure, it isn't a 9MM. The 610 from S&W is a revolver. The Ruger 38-40/40 single action is a revolver. I was simply musing that the 40 GAP could be the next great idea from Glock. Small semi-autos are possible in such a caliber.

Preacherman
March 30, 2004, 03:33 AM
I don't believe it would be practical. The .40 S&W is already a shortened version of the 10mm. Auto - so to shorten it any further would be shortening on top of the shortening! I don't see any point to it, and besides, to achieve any meaningful ballistics out of a shorter round would be pretty difficult.

Josey
March 30, 2004, 04:36 AM
Could be. The 40 GAP and the RIMZ moon clips would be a neat idea in a S&W 610 though.

pauli
March 30, 2004, 07:27 AM
The .40 S&W is already a shortened version of the 10mm. Auto - so to shorten it any further would be shortening on top of the shortening!

you're right. .40 gap is no good. we'll have to call it the .40 crisco.

Carbon_15
March 30, 2004, 09:42 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of a 9mm GAP. The power of a 9mm in a .380 sized gun.

George Hill
March 30, 2004, 11:36 AM
"I was thinking more along the lines of a 9mm GAP. The power of a 9mm in a .380 sized gun."

You can already get that in your .380 with ammo from Pro-Load.

Sorry guys. I see where you are going, but it's silly. You want this... get a KAHR MK9 or MK40. Even .380's don't get much smaller than that.

And if they did - I wouldn't want to shoot it.

cratz2
March 30, 2004, 12:02 PM
The concept of shorter and more expensive ammo for the 610 which can shoot very hot 10mm, hotter 40S&W, weaker 40S&W and handloaded 40S&W ammo that could be loaded so weak it would have no chance in cycling a semiauto slide. :uhoh:

I guess I just don't get it.

And while most folks here haven't embraced the idea of the 45GAP, the very clear idea of it is there are many law enforcement agencies that would like to with with a 45 cal pistol but many people can't manipulate the controls on the Glock 21 without shifting their grip... The 45GAP allows a 45 cal bullet in a gun with the same grip size as the G17/23.

While I see a 5% use for the 45GAP, I really can't see any possible reason for a 40GAP... Unless you wanted a gun with a smaller grip than a Kahr P40 which just doesn't really make sense as I've never seen a single person EVER say 'I like the Kahr PM9... reliable and a good triger buy oy, the grip is just frickin' huge!'.

Moparmike
March 30, 2004, 01:12 PM
I am waiting for us to go the other way around. I want the power of a .458 Lott out of a .25acp. Do they make brass that can handle a small nuclear explosion?:D :rolleyes:

arinvolvo
March 30, 2004, 02:25 PM
Ya, i thought that 9mm and 40 cal were covered by kahr for SMALL carry options?

Why would you want it any smaller than a kahr MK or PM series?

I mean it is always nice to have smaller guns, and more options. But a gun that is smaller than the XD sub with the same calibers are already available.

BrokenArrow
March 30, 2004, 02:46 PM
I think I know what he means... I know what I think he means. ;)

A shorter .40 w a much stronger case might let ya get the same velocities w the same length/weight bullets, or close enough. Even if you were limted to shorter bullets, say 165 and lighter, might have plenty of appeal for some? Might also drive a stake through the kB bogeyman's heart in Glocks (and other .40 guns).

OTOH, like the 45 GAP, while shorter, it wouldn't be any thinner, and the momentum generated would limit how much smaller and lighter the guns slides/bbls could be compared to a 9/40. Might get a shorter front to back mag/grip, and not much else?

Hey, a 9mm GAP, a .357SIG w a longer neck and thicker case web, might "fix" some of the repeating probs I see w that caliber too? ;)

Josey
March 30, 2004, 05:44 PM
Broken Arrow, you got it!

Lone_Gunman
March 30, 2004, 07:51 PM
Would it be possible to make a 44 Magnum GAP cartridge and then make a Kel Tec P32 chambered for it???

PCRCCW
March 31, 2004, 09:15 AM
I see the curiosity point of it...............But until someone improves the 40 S*W case the higher pressures needed to get any velocity out of it would create an instant KB waiting to happen.

Shoot well.

arinvolvo
April 1, 2004, 02:41 AM
ya, but are the 40 cal kb issues due to weak casing, or due to improper support for the case?

I think the latter.

But i still dont see 40gap in the future.

BrokenArrow
April 1, 2004, 10:16 AM
I think it's both, though either contributes more than the other depending on specific incidents. Even HK USPs have kBd, and they have as much case support as ya can get in an auto.

All the 40s, from everybody, are doing it more than the 9 does or ever did in the same designs, and the 9x19 often operates at much higher pressures, especially in CIP/NATO or other mil spec form, even higher than the 357SIG.

Seems like the 40 factory ammo gets messed up worse more often, and the guns don't handle it as well when it does?

Sean Smith
April 1, 2004, 10:32 AM
ya, but are the 40 cal kb issues due to weak casing, or due to improper support for the case?

I think the latter.

Given the apparently much greater propensity for .40 S&W guns to explode than 10mm guns, and the blowing up of .40 S&W USPs with plenty of support for the case, I'd say the former. ;)

gunfan
April 1, 2004, 10:45 AM
:what: :confused: :barf: :cuss: and ultimately... ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! :neener:

Scott

BrokenArrow
April 1, 2004, 10:57 AM
How about a 8mm GAP!?

Neck down a .45 to .32...

Or go the other way, and rebate the case rim of a 45 GAP to .22... then ya could make at least half the slide real easy to hide? ;)

PCRCCW
April 1, 2004, 11:08 AM
"All the 40s, from everybody, are doing it more than the 9 does or ever did in the same designs, and the 9x19 often operates at much higher pressures, especially in CIP/NATO or other mil spec form, even higher than the 357SIG"

Are you sure???? 40's are already at the top of the SAAMI pressure scale..much like +P 9mm. Most NATO rounds are in the same pressure level and some sub gun ammo may be higher but the 40 is already pretty damn high and its the same as the 357 Sig............

From what Ive gathered......MOST KB's are from 180gr Bullets suffering from feedramp slamming and bullet setback. Unsupported chambers and weak cases dont help......it all just shows there is no rule.

Shoot well.

BrokenArrow
April 1, 2004, 11:59 AM
You are mistaken on the 40 pressure level:

SAAMI pressure limit for the 40 S&W is 35,000 psi

SAAMI limit for 9x19 is 35,000 psi, the SAAMI +P limit for 9x19 is 38,500 psi

The CIP limit for 9x19 is 270 MPa, about 39,200 psi

Some NATO, US LEO, and mil-spec 9x19 is loaded to over 42,000 psi

The 357SIG SAAMI max is 40,000 psi.

Might have to do w relative case capacity and pressure? Seems like a little setback will send 40 pressures higher/easier than the 9x19; as high as 70,000 psi. Not sure the 9 gets as high as easy; if it does, the cases and guns still seem to be handling it better for whatever reason(s).

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