New Ballistic Test (may need help)


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jp1944
January 5, 2014, 09:23 AM
While I think Martin Fackler walks on water I am not the largest fan of his ballistic gelatin as a flesh substitute as it's consistency is unchanging. The human body changes in density depending on what is hit: thick muscle, viscera, bone, organs etc. ALL of these have different densities.

Two of my friends and I are going to attempt to do a more significant, or so we hope, test with the Knox&Kind gelatin. We are going to attempt to put muscle (chuck steak) almost immediately in front of the mold, followed by real ribs with intercostal muscle and finally by either a pig or sheep heart.

We want to see what difference there will be in both projectile performance, penetration, secondary projectile from bone and any other observations we can make. We will use a short and a long bbl for each caliber and will chronograph the projectiles too.

I am working with a veterinarian and an engineer in this project and it may or may not be on Youtube - how ever that works. I DO want to post some photos and observations and as of now the plan is three calibers in two different bbl lengths to try to get a more accurate assessment of projectile performance. I will need help in posting photos, or so I think, as I have NEVER done this in my life and, to be honest, have no real desire to learn.

We will be limited to good HP's in the larger calibers and 'ball' in the sort bbl .380. WE will test .45, 9mm and .380.

Any suggestions or helpful comments will be appreciated. Oh, the time frame for this one is late February to late March. This is what you do waiting for the drag racing season to start and in trying to glean more info on other things you have an interest in too.

Thank you for any assistance.

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481
January 5, 2014, 04:10 PM
While I think Martin Fackler walks on water I am not the largest fan of his ballistic gelatin as a flesh substitute as it's consistency is unchanging. The human body changes in density depending on what is hit: thick muscle, viscera, bone, organs etc. ALL of these have different densities.

Two of my friends and I are going to attempt to do a more significant, or so we hope, test with the Knox&Kind gelatin. We are going to attempt to put muscle (chuck steak) almost immediately in front of the mold, followed by real ribs with intercostal muscle and finally by either a pig or sheep heart.

We want to see what difference there will be in both projectile performance, penetration, secondary projectile from bone and any other observations we can make. We will use a short and a long bbl for each caliber and will chronograph the projectiles too.

I am working with a veterinarian and an engineer in this project and it may or may not be on Youtube - how ever that works. I DO want to post some photos and observations and as of now the plan is three calibers in two different bbl lengths to try to get a more accurate assessment of projectile performance. I will need help in posting photos, or so I think, as I have NEVER done this in my life and, to be honest, have no real desire to learn.

We will be limited to good HP's in the larger calibers and 'ball' in the sort bbl .380. WE will test .45, 9mm and .380.

Any suggestions or helpful comments will be appreciated. Oh, the time frame for this one is late February to late March. This is what you do waiting for the drag racing season to start and in trying to glean more info on other things you have an interest in too.

Thank you for any assistance.

Yep, the human body has a nearly infinite combination of tissues and tissue densities within it making it impossible to come up with any one test that will duplicate all possible outcomes.

Ballistic gelatin was never intended to be a substitute for the human body. It is meant to be a consistent and scientifically repeatable test medium that duplicates the average density (including bone) of the human body for use in such tests. If you plan on using Knox & Kind 250 Bloom gelatin as part of your test, it is highly recommended that it be calibrated using a 0.177" BB @ 591 +/- 13fps @ 8.5 +/- 0.4cm @ 4C to assure that it is within the prescribed specifications. Such an effort will go a long way towards ensuring that you obtain valid test results.

Good luck with your tests. :)

Shawn Dodson
January 8, 2014, 05:45 PM
There's no practical difference in soft tissue variation and properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin.

For more info see - http://firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm (Scroll down to the section titled "Where's the Brain?" and "Extract from 'Wound Ballistics Misconceptions.' (Duncan MacPherson, Wound Ballistics Review, 2(3): 1996; 42-43)"

As for bullets and bone - bullets that perform well in the FBI automotive windshield glass test tend to perform well against heavy bone.

Rule3
January 8, 2014, 05:55 PM
The "best" thread I ever read on DIY ballistic test was a guy who had access to a butcher shop.

He got all the fat, skin bones internal organs and all kinds of lets call it GUTS!

He wrapped it up in a burlap bag. think it soak some shredded paper with water and mixed it all up. Had access to a walk in cooler but still was kinda gross.

He put shirts. denim whatever over it and tested bullets and would dig them out. Nasty but sure was realistic. The thread was very long lots of pictures but was taken down. May even have been here on this forum, not sure??

Gut was determined!:eek:

With all the Wild Hog hunters, I would think testing on one of those would prove useful. No it's not neat, clean and statistical as valid as gel, but more realistic.

CWL
January 8, 2014, 06:44 PM
I don't think that stuffing a bag with random animal parts comes close to what ballistic gelatin will reliably reproduce. Ballistic gelatin is meant to be an average of human skin, bones, tissue and organs and results can be duplicated with great consistency.

Shoot 100 blocks with the same design bullet and you'll get similar results for an average. Shoot blocks with different designs of bullets will give you good results for comparison of each bullet's performance.

You can't shoot a bag of meat and think it'll provide any useful information.

Rule3
January 9, 2014, 10:06 AM
What is the human body? A bag of water, meat and bones.:D

Yes, it was a crazy test. Just thought is was funky that some guy would go through all that. By best (that's why "best") I meant reading it not that it was the best as to results.

Yes, Gel is the standard testing media but it is just a test. Hitting a living body has so many variables. Hunters see it all the time.

Ballistic gel does not simulate a hit on hard bone and then being deflected in another direction or being fragmented into pieces.

Personally I really do not care, just was a neat thread.

Ballistic gel is simulated Swine tissue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

Ballistic gelatin is a testing medium scientifically correlated to swine muscle tissue (which in turn is comparable to human muscle tissue), in which the effects of bullet wounds can be simulated. It was developed and improved by Martin Fackler and others in the field of wound ballistics.[1][2][3] Ballistic gelatin is a solution of gelatin powder in water. Ballistic gelatin closely simulates the density and viscosity of human and animal muscle tissue, and is used as a standardized medium for testing the terminal performance of firearms ammunition. While ballistic gelatin does not model the structure of the body, including skin and bones, it works fairly well as an approximation of tissue and provides similar performance for most ballistics testing. Ballistic gelatin is used rather than actual muscle tissue due to the ability to carefully control the properties of the gelatin, which allows consistent and reliable comparison of terminal ballistics.

The old controversial Strasbourg test.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=62775

Shawn Dodson
January 9, 2014, 12:34 PM
This is how you interpret actual wounding effects in any given shooting to the same projectile's wound profile produced in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin:


http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/CNStarget.jpg

(source: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4345-LE-308-Loads&p=75164#post75164)

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/m855%20body%20overlay%2001.jpg

(source: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/)

A basic understanding of a few factors is essential to accurately interpret wounding effects observed in actual shootings and compare these effects to the wound profile produced by the same projectile in properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin:


The Mechanics of Projectile Wounding (penetration, permanent cavity, temporary cavity, and fragmentation)
Characteristics of the various soft tissues encountered and disrupted by the penetrating bullet (tolerance or intolerance to temporary cavity stretch – soft tissues that don’t tolerate stretching very well will experience greater permanent disruption (physical destruction) than more resilient tissues). Tissues such as liver, kidney, brain, spleen and pancreas do not tolerate being stretched and will rupture, whereas resilient tissues such as skin, muscle, lung, bowel, blood vessel, and nerve will tolerate a greater amount of stretching before they rupture.
The location of these various tissues along the wound path determines the amount of permanent disruption they will experience.

Speedo66
January 10, 2014, 12:29 PM
Nice idea, just seems like a real waste of good ribs. :rolleyes:

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