Gun terms that are often confused...


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Hokkmike
January 9, 2014, 01:29 PM
license - permit; magazine - clip; antlers - horns.

They DO NOT mean the same thing but are often used interchangeably.

I was thinking about what other gun related terms are in the same category and what import they might have in a practical sense.

The relationship between pistol and revolver has been one. My take is that pistols and revolvers are both handguns but that revolvers are not pistols.

I think shooters also often misapply the terms bullet, shell, and cartridge.

Certainly the deliberately biased news media refuses to differentiate between automatic and semi automatic, but we know what that is all about.

The term "high powered" also is misused to infer something used in excess of what is required. Same with "cop killer" bullets. A decidedly loaded term.

And of course, the biggest misnomer of them all - "assault rifle". It is all about looks and nothing more for the majority of the American public.

Can you think of any others?

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SuedePflow
January 9, 2014, 01:46 PM
Technically, the definition of a pistol is, "a small firearm designed to be held in one hand".
Handgun/pistol, same thing. I personally do not differentiate.


"Cop killer bullets" kind of irks me. Loaded term indeed, and I just shake my head when I here it. Especially when Mel Gibson says it in Lethal Weapon.

NavyLCDR
January 9, 2014, 01:53 PM
High capacity, I feel, is misued most of the time in regards to the number of rounds that a firearm and/or magazine and/or clip is capable of accepting.


http://www.nraila.org/glossary.aspx

CLIP
A device for holding a group of cartridges. Semantic wars have been fought over the word, with some insisting it is not a synonym for "detachable magazine." For 80 years, however, it has been so used by manufacturers and the military. There is no argument that it can also mean a separate device for holding and transferring a group of cartridges to a fixed or detachable magazine or as a device inserted with cartridges into the mechanism of a firearm becoming, in effect, part of that mechanism.

ASSAULT RIFLE
By U.S. Army definition, a selective-fire rifle chambered for a cartridge of intermediate power. If applied to any semi-automatic firearm regardless of its cosmetic similarity to a true assault rifle, the term is incorrect.

ASSAULT WEAPON
Any weapon used in an assault (see WEAPON).

http://www.remington.com/product-families/accessories/gun-parts-families/magazine-clips.aspx

Model 504 Magazine Clip:
http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Accessories/Gun-Parts/504magazine.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

32_d3gr33s
January 9, 2014, 02:10 PM
Ammo bullet cartridge shell

ApacheCoTodd
January 9, 2014, 08:33 PM
I think it's funny how often I hear folks refer to the hammer as the trigger.

jcwit
January 9, 2014, 08:54 PM
Frankly I think folks get way to wrapped up in being absolutely correct, even when they realize that everyone else knows what is being discussed.

David E
January 9, 2014, 09:04 PM
^^ that's not necessarily true. I've seen several threads take quite a few posts to figure out what the OP was really trying to say.

Like "Cylinder" and "Chamber." For example, a recent thread that started out with: "My cylinder is stuck...." Led to all kinds of posts suggesting remedies for a stuck cylinder. Eventually, we came to find out the "cylinder" was a particular chamber, not the round thing that turns round and round.

"I loaded all 6 cylinders..." That must be a very chunky revolver, having 6 cylinders and all.

Also, "Extractor" and "Ejector." Same story. "The extractor wasn't kicking the brass out very far..." Or, "the ejector isn't getting the brass out..."

There have been more than one thread or posts that read entirely different than the intent by misusing these terms.

BluesDancer
January 9, 2014, 09:27 PM
Technically, the definition of a pistol is, "a small firearm designed to be held in one hand". Handgun/pistol, same thing. I personally do not differentiate.
+1

A revolver is most certainly a pistol.

There are 3 types of pistols I can think of right off the bat:
1 - Autoloading pistols (a.k.a Autoloaders)
2 - Revolving pistols (a.k.a. Revolvers)
3 - Machine pistols (e.g., Glock 18, Beretta 93R)

oneounceload
January 9, 2014, 09:31 PM
You forgot single shot pistols and derringers.....;)

MistWolf
January 9, 2014, 10:23 PM
Pistols have been pistols long before self loading handguns came on the scene

wow6599
January 9, 2014, 10:27 PM
I get aggravated by folks who say clip instead of magazine. And the odd thing is, a lot of folks who I know and are "into" firearms say clip - even a friend who was in the Army Nation Guard.

MAGAZINE!!

cfullgraf
January 9, 2014, 10:31 PM
Take it at what ever you want but Wikipedia says:

"When distinguished as a subset of handguns, a pistol is a handgun with a chamber that is integral with the barrel, such as a pepperbox revolver—as opposed to a standard (single-barrel) revolver, wherein the chamber is separate from the barrel as a revolving cylinder.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol

jcwit
January 9, 2014, 10:44 PM
xxx

jcwit
January 9, 2014, 10:45 PM
xxx

Sam1911
January 9, 2014, 10:48 PM
I hate it when people confuse redundant with pedantic.




;)

I'll leave this open for now.

BUT ONLY IF WE DROP CLIP-vs.-MAG. WE'VE DONE THAT ONE TOO MANY TIMES, RECENTLY.

Carl N. Brown
January 9, 2014, 11:05 PM
For guns that were never clip loading, such as Marlin's bolt action .22s, the factory has called the detachable box magazine a "clip" for literally generations, parts lists, packaging, etc.

Tennessee Handgun Carry (carry) Permit is the equivalent of the Texas Concealed Handgun (carry) License: it is the document allowing carry of a concealed handgun in public outside ones home or business.

USAF_Vet
January 9, 2014, 11:42 PM
Michigan has a concealed PISTOL license, so by some peoples definition, I could not carry a revolver.

Terminology faux pas' do not bother me as much as just flat out getting things wrong, like cocking the hammer on a striker fired pistol.


I had to walk away from an argument that started on a 'rifled barrel shotgun' and how it was actually classified. One guy was insistent that because it was not a smoothbore, it could not be a shotgun. In the course of this conversation, one guy refused to believe the 16.25" cut down rifled barrel on his shotgun was an illegal unregistered SBS because it was now a rifle, not a shotgun.

jerkface11
January 9, 2014, 11:53 PM
It bugs me when people call the safety lever the manual firing inhibitor.

JohnKSa
January 10, 2014, 12:08 AM
breech & breach If your gun has a "breach" then something's wrong with it. You should always make sure the "breech" is closed and locked before firing.

brake & break If your gun has a muzzle "break" then you should get the break repaired. A muzzle "brake" can reduce recoil but will direct more of the noise back towards the shooter.

reticle & reticule If your scope has a reticule, then you should make sure it matches your scope's shoes to avoid a fashion faux pas. A reticle is the aiming "mark" imposed by the scope on the background when you look through the scope.

aperture & aperature. Ain't no sech thing as an aperAture. There's only one 'a' in aperture.

perpster
January 10, 2014, 12:59 AM
"control"

"common sense"

DoubleMag
January 10, 2014, 09:38 AM
Personally, I always got the FTF and FTF mixed up. Is there other terms for, Failure To Feed... and.... Failure To Fire ?

Weapon vs Firearm

bhk
January 10, 2014, 09:48 AM
I am a NRA certified PISTOL instructor (as worded on my official card). I guess I can't teach anything about revolvers? I can then assume the NRA doesn't know anything about guns.

buck460XVR
January 10, 2014, 10:03 AM
I hate it when people confuse redundant with pedantic.


....or redundantly pedantic to the point of being confusing.;)

plmitch
January 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
Well there goes five minutes of my life I can't get back....sucked in again.

ATLDave
January 10, 2014, 11:12 AM
Take it at what ever you want but Wikipedia says:

"When distinguished as a subset of handguns, a pistol is a handgun with a chamber that is integral with the barrel, such as a pepperbox revolver—as opposed to a standard (single-barrel) revolver, wherein the chamber is separate from the barrel as a revolving cylinder.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol

Well, as is typical, you get what you pay for. Wikipedia is a free source. ;)

Seriously, there have been many threads on this debate. Pistol has always been a term that encompasses handguns. It acquired a second meaning sometime around the introduction of the National Firearms Act, which differentiated between pistols and revolvers, in language similar to the wikipedia article. Since that time, and like a great many English words, "pistol" has had at least two definitions.

Either usage is correct. Correcting someone on either usage is the only way to be wrong.

el indio
January 10, 2014, 11:40 AM
How about 45 LongColt? Shouldn't it be 45Colt? The other 45 is the ACP. How about the 1858 Remington revolver? I thought it was called the New Model.

Carl N. Brown
January 10, 2014, 11:58 AM
Almost. The other .45 cartridge issued by the Army for use in both the .45 Colt Single Action Army SSA and the .45 S&W Schofield revolvers for the cavalry was the .45 M1887 (Frankford Arsenal) which is a shorter cartridge that can be used in both. Nobody seems sure when or where the original .45 Colt was called .45 Long Colt to distinguish it, but yes, .45 LC is unofficial and unnecessary.

ATLDave
January 10, 2014, 12:22 PM
How about 45 LongColt? Shouldn't it be 45Colt? The other 45 is the ACP.

What does the "C" in "ACP" stand for?

SC Shooter
January 10, 2014, 01:11 PM
I get aggravated by folks who say clip instead of magazine. And the odd thing is, a lot of folks who I know and are "into" firearms say clip - even a friend who was in the Army Nation Guard.

MAGAZINE!!
I agree. At the start of my CWP class, the instructor held up a magazine in the air, and asked what was term for this item. Of the 12 in the clas, only a couple of us said magazine. I was amazed at the number who called it a clip.

The other one that gets me is saying automatic vs. semi-automatic or autoloader.

cfullgraf
January 10, 2014, 01:12 PM
What does the "C" in "ACP" stand for?

ACP = Auto Colt Pistol

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 01:21 PM
Take it at what ever you want but Wikipedia says:

"When distinguished as a subset of handguns, a pistol is a handgun with a chamber that is integral with the barrel, such as a pepperbox revolver—as opposed to a standard (single-barrel) revolver, wherein the chamber is separate from the barrel as a revolving cylinder.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol
I was at a gun show years back and asked an old timer to take a look at a gun he had on the table , I asked to see that "Pistol" ... and I got ed-ju-mu- kated !!! he said "You mean that Revolver" , I let it slide , but it bugged me enough that I looked it up when I got home , and he was right , a revolver is a revolver not a pistol . I've heard "Sam Clot loved his revolving pistols" but then again a motorcycle doesn't even have a motor on it.. it's an engine ! lol .....

mavracer
January 10, 2014, 01:30 PM
Since the original Colt patent was for a revolving "Pistol" I'm gonna take Sam's word that it's ok to call it a Pistol.
And for those who wanna get up in arms about calling a magazine a clip get Remington to stop doing it.

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 01:31 PM
The other one that gets me is saying automatic vs. semi-automatic or autoloader.

See, this is a good example of why such threads and pedantry in general is often a bad bet.

"Automatic" is a perfectly acceptable and precise noun for a self-loading firearm. "Is that a revolver or an automatic?" "We're going hunting, are you taking your pump or your automatic?" ... and so on. "Semi-" has now become the common slang for a self-loader, but "automatic" is the older and more exact term. Remember, JMB himself designed the .45 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge, though he never designed a FULLY-automatic weapon to fire it in.

Likewise with clip-vs.-magazine, which can be clearly demonstrated to be a modern distinction that makes almost no difference at all except to those who are very concerned with being "in the know" ... or appearing to be. ;)

Likewise with pistol -vs. - revolver, when the earliest patents prove that the intent was to build a "revolving pistol."

Generally, the more you study a subject, the more things you realize you didn't understand completely and the less ready you are to deliver a verbal beat down over any such quirk of language.

ATLDave
January 10, 2014, 01:51 PM
ACP = Auto Colt Pistol

Thanks, I knew that. Read the post I was responding to and see if you can figure out why I asked that question. ;)

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 01:59 PM
I grew up always hearing "Clip" and when I got older and got in to guns It seemed to me clips were used in small arms and magazines were used in big stuff like military guns , then I found lots of folks called mags for 22lr pistols "clips" , but center fire guns like 1911's had mags, ? and in the last few years "Clip -vs- Magazine" has just been a way to beat up on the non-gun media , as posted above , Remington dose it .., some gun shops do it , heck my Grandfather did it for 80+ years , and so have I ,
so are the speed loaders for my "Pistols" called clips too :what::neener:

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 02:05 PM
so are the speed loaders for my "Pistols" called clips too
A certain rather well-known writer and teacher (and THR member) once referred to his as "rotary assault devices" when picking them up off the ground after a stage I was working at IDPA National Match some years back.

Pretty funny!

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 02:21 PM
A certain rather well-known writer and teacher (and THR member) once referred to his as "rotary assault devices" when picking them up off the ground after a stage I was working at IDPA National Match some years back.

Pretty funny!
cool... to funny ..... did those "Rotary Assault Devices" use clips or magazines ?? and should we just call then RAD's

jcwit
January 10, 2014, 02:51 PM
Words meaning changes as language is a work in progress. This happens over time.

Example the word "queer" used to be heavily used with no sexual meaning at all.
And remember the Christmas Carol about "now we don our gay apparel".

For those old enough, I remember the teachers telling all that the use of the word "ain't" was terrible and that there was no such word. Today it widely acceptable and is even in the dictionary.

anothernewb
January 10, 2014, 02:53 PM
I've always been irked by bullet proof.

Godsgunman
January 10, 2014, 03:14 PM
The main one that gets under my skin is the "clip/magazine" so much so that there have been some guns I have been interested in on armslist but the seller said "clip" instead of "magazine" so I didn't even bother contacting them. Silly? Yes but it just shows ignorance and it irks me. Just a pet peeve I guess.

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 04:01 PM
Silly? Yes but it just shows ignorance and it irks me. Just a pet peeve I guess.Are Remington and other manufacturers ignorant for using it that way? I mean, they MAKE them and have been around, and around guns, a lot longer than any of us. Seems like perhaps it's US that have the problem...

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 04:35 PM
The main one that gets under my skin is the "clip/magazine" so much so that there have been some guns I have been interested in on armslist but the seller said "clip" instead of "magazine" so I didn't even bother contacting them. Silly? Yes but it just shows ignorance and it irks me. Just a pet peeve I guess.
this sounds like the guy that corrected me on the revolver vs pistol thing ,, are you right ?.. was he ?? well yes , kind-of ,, have you ever rode an engine-cycle because that's what they are , sounds silly but a motor is electric , , and if I say my Ruger Standard has the clip with the chrome base on it you would know what I'm talking about , right ?, as for the pistol vs revolver , I just say handgun , all fixed ,

mac66
January 10, 2014, 04:51 PM
I think the hope is by those who made the effort, that by making a distinction between clip and magazine we can more accurately define what we are talking about. If enough people do that then the gun companies may stop using the terms interchangeably which will then change that in common usage. Consequently we in the gun community can then start influencing the use of other words and terms which are used incorrectly (assault rifle etc) and reflect negative connotations. It is the use of collective action that turns the tide of public opinion something conservatives and gun owners are not very skilled at.

BTW, a revolver is a type of pistol.

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 05:10 PM
Ok, I guess, but if THEY'RE building the things and they want to call them "clips" who are we to tell them they are wrong? If they want to label that part, "No. 37 -- Blossoming Petunia" I suppose we're really not in a position to argue they can't call it whatever they want.

I can ... perhaps ... see why the "assault rifle" thing might be worth effort (though it is problematic and we're drawing a distinction that could hurt us in the bigger picture), but wasting effort on changing the world's opinion on which is a clip and which is a magazine? Bigger fish to fry, my friend!

mac66
January 10, 2014, 05:19 PM
"Ok, I guess, but if THEY'RE building the things and they want to call them "clips" who are we to tell them they are wrong? If they want to label that part, "No. 37 -- Blossoming Petunia" I suppose we're really not in a position to argue they can't call it whatever they want.

I can ... perhaps ... see why the "assault rifle" thing might be worth effort (though it is problematic and we're drawing a distinction that could hurt us in the bigger picture), but wasting effort on changing the world's opinion on which is a clip and which is a magazine? Bigger fish to fry, my friend!"

Ah yes, they can call them whatever they want but wouldn't it be better if we eliminate the confusion between clip and magazine. Clip can mean different things. The distinction simply tries to clarify and be more accurate. Yes, bigger fish to fry, but how do you eat a whale? One bite at a time.

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 06:09 PM
here we send in for a CCW permit and they send you back a CCW License :confused:

jrmiddleton425
January 10, 2014, 06:21 PM
In NYS, you go to the Pistol "Permit" Bureau and are granted a "license" to carry a pistol. And here, revolvers ARE pistols.

gamestalker
January 10, 2014, 06:32 PM
We've all heard firearm functions and components applied incorrectly. But for a reloader it is difficult to leave it alone. Especially when someone is asking a question about some specific related to the process or components involved.

I think the worst one I ever heard was here on THR when someone once asked if grains referred to each individual granule of powder, really? Thank goodness they at least asked.

And the list goes on and on.

GS

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 06:45 PM
or ^^^^^ not using IMR or H- like saying " I like 4831 for that " hum H-4831 or IMR 4831:confused:

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 06:50 PM
In NYS, you go to the Pistol "Permit" Bureau and are granted a "license" to carry a pistol. And here, revolvers ARE pistols.
here there called handguns same as it is on a NICS check , long-gun or hand-gun no pistol and no revolver , there just handguns, and a CCW is a weapons license , for knifes , stun guns, clubs, and handguns

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 07:14 PM
Ah yes, they can call them whatever they want but wouldn't it be better if we eliminate the confusion between clip and magazine. Clip can mean different things. The distinction simply tries to clarify and be more accurate.
English is the most acquisitive and conglomerate language the world has ever seen. We have more synonyms for words than any other, as well as layers and levels and degrees of nuance far more detailed than most languages can approach. Heck, even the order in which we stack the components of hyphenated and compound words present significantly distinct meanings (E.g.: House-boat or boat-house?), something that doesn't happen in other tongues.

Historically, the meaning of many very common words has exactly reversed (!) without those words falling out of favor or use.

And yet, we don't seem to get too terribly confused, at least not often enough to stop the trend.

So, accuracy? What does that mean? Call a thing what the manfuacturer calls it? Not what your grandfather called it or you THINK it should be called, or what your neighbor calls it, I guess. But then you'd have to call a Wilson Combat 47D a "magazine" but the device pictured above you'd have to call a "clip" or YOU aren't being accurate.

Now you can rebel against what the MAKER and owner of the patent on that item called it, and call it whatever you like, but how is that accurate? That's just expressing your own opinion, and one that differs from the official paperwork. And that's how language changes and grows...by folks not being "accurate."

So which is it? :)

jerkface11
January 10, 2014, 07:20 PM
So, accuracy? What does that mean?

Don't you mean precision?

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 07:21 PM
LOL! Nice one. :)

jerkface11
January 10, 2014, 07:25 PM
I'm here all week tell your friends.

Sam1911
January 10, 2014, 07:33 PM
Heck, 100 years from now, "magazine" will probably refer to the shoulder thing that goes up.

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 07:34 PM
I'm here all week tell your friends.
I can't afford any friends I spent all my money/cash/funds/ on witnesses

1858
January 10, 2014, 07:44 PM
They DO NOT mean the same thing but are often used in interchangeably.

Such as caliber and cartridge. Even many firearms manufactures imply that the .308 Win, .30-06 Sprg, .300 WSM and .300 Win Mag are different calibers.


reticle & reticule If your scope has a reticule, then you should make sure it matches your scope's shoes to avoid a fashion faux pas. A reticle is the aiming "mark" imposed by the scope on the background when you look through the scope.

Reticule is still a correct alternative form of reticle. It's the common form in Europe.

jerkface11
January 10, 2014, 07:44 PM
Our grand children will argue over whether it's a battery or a charger.

Carl N. Brown
January 10, 2014, 08:54 PM
My West Hurley Thompson bullet logo 1911A1 clone is boldly stamped:
AUTO-ORDNANCE CORP
.45 CALIBER AUTOMATIC
I need to have a caret ^ stamped under the space between CALIBER and AUTOMATIC and have SEMI- stamped below that. Oh, the shame of having a pedantically incorrect 1911A1, Oh Tempura! Oh, Morays!

And again Wikipedia uses non-notable un-reliable sources to include this in their article on M1911 pistol:
The M1911 is a single-action, semi-automatic, magazine-fed, recoil-operated pistol chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge,[1] which served as the standard-issue sidearm for the United States Armed Forces from 1911 to 1985. It was first used in later stages of the Philippine-American War, and was widely used in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. The M1911 is still carried by some U.S. forces. Its formal designation as of 1940 was Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911 for the original Model of 1911 or Automatic Pistol, Caliber .45, M1911A1 for the M1911A1, adopted in 1924. The designation changed to Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic, M1911A1 in the Vietnam era.[1]

1. Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic, M1911 Technical Manual TM 9-1005-211-34 1964 edition. Pentagon Publishing. 1964. p. 64. ISBN 978-1-60170-013-1.


On the bright side, the word "magazine" is used 19 times in the Wiki article, but "clip" is not used.

savanahsdad
January 10, 2014, 09:06 PM
can you put a CAN on that :what: silencer , suppressor , muffler :neener:

JohnKSa
January 10, 2014, 11:40 PM
Reticule is still a correct alternative form of reticle. It's the common form in Europe.I checked (should have done that before posting, I guess) and you are correct.

JohnBT
January 11, 2014, 09:10 AM
Gun terms?

Do you mean firearms?

:)

savanahsdad
January 11, 2014, 01:06 PM
Gun terms?

Do you mean firearms?

:)
USMC told my son it was his "Weapon"

jcwit
January 11, 2014, 01:38 PM
I'll try to remember this the next time I attend a "weapon show".

savanahsdad
January 11, 2014, 02:05 PM
a "Weapons Show" lol:what: do they have mags and clips there ? or revolvers and pistols ? how about stocks and furniture ?:cool:

32_d3gr33s
January 11, 2014, 02:44 PM
USMC told my son it was his "Weapon"

this is my weapon, this is my gun...

savanahsdad
January 11, 2014, 04:33 PM
this is my weapon, this is my gun...

:what: you can't talk about your GUN here !!:eek:

zoom6zoom
January 11, 2014, 06:03 PM
Furniture. Common usage has become to use it for the complete stocks and handguards, but it's actually just the metal fittings and such that are part of the stocks.

Speedo66
January 11, 2014, 06:55 PM
"Gun terms that are often confused"

"Reasonable" and "sensible" gun control laws vs. Are you <deleted> kidding me!!!

Re: Remington using "clip" in their ads, no doubt the hack with no gun experience writing ad copy in their advertising agency was a little confused. :rolleyes:

ChaoSS
January 11, 2014, 07:45 PM
Here's a can of worms.

People who insist on "correcting" people who use the term accidental discharge and insist it has to be negligent discharge.


Accident implies negligence. That's what it means. If it's not an accident, it's either intentional, or its a proverbial act of god.

If you load your gun, point it as something, and shoot, it's intentional. If you are not following the safety rules and shoot something you didn't want to, it's an accident. If a gun is sitting there on it's own, and suddenly goes off, it's an act of god.

Negligence and Accidental mean the same thing, people. If you want to use Negligence because you think it's a harsher term, fine, but stop trying to "correct" everyone else.

Just once I'd like to go on a car, or motorcycle forum, look at a thread about someone's accident, and see someone insist that no, it's not an accident, it's a negligent vehicle collision. Or not.

savanahsdad
January 11, 2014, 07:56 PM
or go on a motorcycle form and tell them is a "enginecycle" there is no motor on it , other than the starter ,, :what: let us know how that works out :neener:

donato
January 12, 2014, 06:46 PM
ChaoSS said: People who insist on "correcting" people who use the term accidental discharge and insist it has to be negligent discharge.


Accident implies negligence. That's what it means. If it's not an accident, it's either intentional, or its a proverbial act of god.

If you load your gun, point it as something, and shoot, it's intentional. If you are not following the safety rules and shoot something you didn't want to, it's an accident. If a gun is sitting there on it's own, and suddenly goes off, it's an act of god.

Negligence and Accidental mean the same thing, people. If you want to use Negligence because you think it's a harsher term, fine, but stop trying to "correct" everyone else.

Just once I'd like to go on a car, or motorcycle forum, look at a thread about someone's accident, and see someone insist that no, it's not an accident, it's a negligent vehicle collision. Or not.

Excellent statement ChaoSS!!

Anyone who is hung up on calling every accident a negligent discharge has obviously never had the opportunity to hunt on a regular basis with a Winchester model 1897 pump shotgun and on cold days having to drop the hammer to half cock after chambering a round.

cfullgraf
January 12, 2014, 09:58 PM
or go on a motorcycle form and tell them is a "enginecycle" there is no motor on it , other than the starter ,, :what: let us know how that works out :neener:

Apologies for side tracking the thread.

For clarity...

One definition of a motor is a device that uses energy to impart motion.

One definition of an engine is a device that uses thermal energy to impart motion.

So a motorcycle engine is a motor. But an electric motor is not an engine.

Back to confusing gun terms while I head off to the weapons show to look at knives, swords, trebuchets, ballistas and firearms.:)

savanahsdad
January 12, 2014, 11:47 PM
well being a 3rd generation electrician (before I wrecked my leg and started driving truck ) and I have a son-in-law that a journeyman , I'll have to disagree , lol ! and all my biker friends and family all just them "Bikes or Harley's " but then again gramps called mags "clips"

when did we start calling "scopes" "Glass" ??
and is Lea-a-pole or Lu-a-pold ??
Sterm Ruger or Strum Ruger ?

ChaoSS
January 12, 2014, 11:57 PM
Apologies for side tracking the thread.

For clarity...

One definition of a motor is a device that uses energy to impart motion.

One definition of an engine is a device that uses thermal energy to impart motion.

So a motorcycle engine is a motor. But an electric motor is not an engine.

Back to confusing gun terms while I head off to the weapons show to look at knives, swords, trebuchets, ballistas and firearms.:)
Just to clarify, the term engine was in use long before thermal powered engines were in use. Think of the uses of the term "engines of war", commonly used for various types of catapults, which used anything from gravity to stored energy in twisted ropes to other means to impart kinetic energy to a projectile.

Just another example of multiple terms with very overlapping definitions, but people have come to insist on engine meaning internal combustion and motor meaning electrical.


Same applies, imo, to things like clip and magazine. We get picky about these things, but clip has long been used for what we call a magazine, and a magazine has such an encompassing definition, historically, that we should have no problems calling things like stripper clips magazines.

lechiffre
January 13, 2014, 12:57 AM
Two often misused terms :

Point Blank

Series 70

Cooldill
January 13, 2014, 01:00 AM
Clip and magazine.

savanahsdad
January 13, 2014, 01:04 AM
Clip and magazine.
you mean magazine clip right , LOL

Arizona_Mike
January 13, 2014, 01:14 PM
The Germans (and a lot of other countries) were never consistent between rifle and carbine. As pointed out in this thread Remington calls some of their "magazines" "clips".

That engine=thermal thing made me smile. Trebuchet anyone?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Trebuchet_Castelnaud.jpg/350px-Trebuchet_Castelnaud.jpg

While it is very important for engineering and science students to understand the difference between force and quantity of substance and the differentiation of "mass" and "weight" serves a good educational purpose it constantly frustrates me that so many come out of that education thinking that that modern teaching invention is historic use and that people who don't use it are wrong. I love to point out that humans while have been "massing" using balances for 3000 years, the "weighing" spring scale was not invented until 1864 (by Philipp von Jolly). The English word "weight" is about 700 years old and has been used for amount of substance as well early examples of using it as the draw force of a bow.

Someone will come along and make an invention for safety (changing the historic word "inflammable" to the made-up word "flammable" for example), military convention, political correctness, prudishness, education, etc. and that is just fine (biting my tongue). Where I have an issue is when they accuse other people of being "wrong" for not adopting their neologism.

Mike

PS. Personally I never use "Mizz" and only use gender in the grammatical sense and when I actually mean the new sociological sense. I still prefer Peking and feel quite gay over being vindicated with regard to St. Petersburg.

mdauben
January 13, 2014, 01:25 PM
My take on some things.

license - permit
While there may be a fine legal difference between the two, I think many people use them interchangably since they are used by various states for what appears to be the same thing, legal permission to carry a weapon concealed. For example, in AL we are issued a Pistol Permit, while in MA they are issued a Licence to Carry Firearm.

The relationship between pistol and revolver has been one. My take is that pistols and revolvers are both handguns but that revolvers are not pistols.
It seems to be common convention to use "pistol" only to refer to semiautomatic handguns, and exclude revolvers from the term. By the dictionary definition, however, pistol = handgun and would include both semiautos and revolvers.

3 - Machine pistols (e.g., Glock 18, Beretta 93R)
Machine Pistol originally referred not just to fully automatic "pistols" but to fully automatic weapons firing pistol-caliber cartridges (i.e. submachineguns)

Just keep in mind, English is a slippery and constantly evolving language and unlike some countries, there is no offical body to determine what is correct English. ;)

Arkansas Paul
January 13, 2014, 01:33 PM
There are some things that irk me personally, but I generally keep them to myself. I hate it when magazines are called clips. I hate it when shotshells are called bullets. But like Sam said earlier in the thread, we have bigger fish to fry.

I do take good natured jabs at the guys at deer camp when they say they shot a deer behind the "front" shoulder. I'll say something stupid like, "Yeah, you don't want to ever shoot them behind the rear shoulder." or "What other shoulder did it have?" They always pause for a moment and then laugh. "Front" shoulder is technically correct I guess, but not necessary because no animal has a rear shoulder.
But that's in good natured fun, not being a jerk.

ShooterMcGavin
January 13, 2014, 02:53 PM
I haven't read the whole thread...

I find it annoying when people state "AR-15 for sale, chambered in .223" when they really mean it is chambered in 5.56mm. They aren't the same and I always need to ask.

cfullgraf
January 13, 2014, 04:20 PM
That engine=thermal thing made me smile. Trebuchet anyone?


As several folks have so excellently pointed out, there are several definitions of an engine.

Also, there are several definitions of a motor.

But, if you re-read post #73, engines turning thermal energy into motion is stated as only ONE definition, not THE definition of an engine.

It would not be any fun if English made sense all the time.

mavracer
January 13, 2014, 04:49 PM
It would not be any fun if English made sense all the time.
English sometimes just doesn't make any damn sense.

I mean tomb and bomb should rhyme right.

savanahsdad
January 13, 2014, 06:52 PM
and you put motor oil in an engine , and with a M1 Garand you put the clip in the magazine :neener: oh and sewing machine oil works for gun oil , or is it gun lube :confused:


this thread has become a good vocabulary test , I might even learn too spell as good as I shoot :D

Hurryin' Hoosier
January 13, 2014, 07:16 PM
Take it at what ever you want but Wikipedia says:

"When distinguished as a subset of handguns, a pistol is a handgun with a chamber that is integral with the barrel, such as a pepperbox revolver—as opposed to a standard (single-barrel) revolver, wherein the chamber is separate from the barrel as a revolving cylinder.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol
Now, wait a minute. " ... a chamber which is integral with the barrel such as a ... revolver ... ". How can any of the chambers of a revolver be "integral with" (i.e., part of) the barrel? Are they talking about a Gatling Gun?

Sam1911
January 13, 2014, 07:20 PM
Look up a Pepperbox.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TCb5nfjtfOI/AAAAAAAAANo/liUgtAqwIg0/s1600/pepper_2.jpg

torqem
January 13, 2014, 07:41 PM
"fast draw" and most people's actual speed (especially from concealment) "Rapidfire" and the rate of fire that most people can actually hit with (especially a bolt-action).. "Effective" and all but a very few controlable handgun loads. "Full expansion" and what most jhp's actually deliver. "Hi-velocity" and .22lr. "pointed" (ie, "spitzer" and most rifle bullets. A Berger VLD is fairly "pointy" but a 64 gr Winchester 223 sp aint.

jgh4445
January 13, 2014, 07:44 PM
The only one that even remotely bothers me is the misuse of Point Blank Range. Mostly misused by the media and Hollyweird.

Arizona_Mike
January 13, 2014, 08:19 PM
As several folks have so excellently pointed out, there are several definitions of an engine.

Also, there are several definitions of a motor.

But, if you re-read post #73, engines turning thermal energy into motion is stated as only ONE definition, not THE definition of an engine.

It would not be any fun if English made sense all the time.
As an engineer I am familiar with the term "heat engine" which is a subset of engines.

Mike

cfullgraf
January 13, 2014, 08:50 PM
This will make the engine-motor discussion clear as mud.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=206484

Lots of engineers weighing in on the subject with opinions going both ways.

Back to the subject, yes, an M1 Garand is a good example of the difference between a clip and a magazine.

jerkface11
January 13, 2014, 08:53 PM
How is a clip different from a charger?

ChaoSS
January 13, 2014, 10:21 PM
English sometimes just doesn't make any damn sense.

I mean tomb and bomb should rhyme right.
And comb. And aplomb.

allin
January 14, 2014, 06:21 AM
I bought some clips and magazines for cheap at a gun show. They do not work with any of my collection, my sole goal was to explain to my grandchildren the difference. They also thought they were pretty cool items. I don't have enough time or inclination to try correct everybody on everything all the time. Mostly I don't let what others say bother me much, why waste "Much ado about nothing"?

jrdolall
January 14, 2014, 08:26 AM
I fired my first gun in around 1964. It was a single shot 22.
The next gun I shot, probably around 1967 or so, was a 20g shotgun that had a CLIP. It did not have a magazine because magazines come in the mail and sit on the back of the toilet(or outhouse for some of us). I never use the word CLIP when talking about guns/firearms/weapons but I don't get apoplectic when someone else does.
In Alabama we drink Coke. It can be a Dr. Pepper Coke but it's still a coke though modern advertising is changing that. I can deal with soda but hearing people say "Give me a pop" makes me want to scream.
It's a pistol whether it's a revolver or semi. Derringers are also pistols. Any of these can be divided into subsets without causing too much confusion. "I have a revolver AND a pistol".
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavracer View Post
English sometimes just doesn't make any damn sense.

I mean tomb and bomb should rhyme right.
And comb. And aplomb.
Gallagher has an entire bit with these types of words in the English language. Or is it the American language?

Double Naught Spy
January 14, 2014, 08:50 AM
Automatic and fully automatic. My 1911 is an automatic pistol firing the Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge, but heaven forbid it be correctly described as such by somebody in the media.

Potatohead
January 14, 2014, 12:00 PM
In Alabama we drink Coke. It can be a Dr. Pepper Coke but it's still a coke

He's right.

Potatohead
January 14, 2014, 12:01 PM
I feel smarter for reading all of this thread btw.


Not really.:neener:

Hurryin' Hoosier
January 14, 2014, 01:10 PM
Look up a Pepperbox.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_59GYpEVAu0U/TCb5nfjtfOI/AAAAAAAAANo/liUgtAqwIg0/s1600/pepper_2.jpg
But a "Pepperbox" was hardly a typical revolver. Actually very much like a hand-held Gatling Gun.

Sam1911
January 14, 2014, 01:40 PM
Right, but the quote there specified it as specifically different from a "standard" (his word) revolver.

At the time Colt and his pals worked out their revolving cylinder designs, pepperbox handguns were not the complete rarities they are today.

Elkins45
January 14, 2014, 03:13 PM
Words meaning changes as language is a work in progress. This happens over time.

Example the word "queer" used to be heavily used with no sexual meaning at all.
And remember the Christmas Carol about "now we don our gay apparel".

For those old enough, I remember the teachers telling all that the use of the word "ain't" was terrible and that there was no such word. Today it widely acceptable and is even in the dictionary.
I will always recall reading the Sherlock Holmes stories for the first time. Imagine my surprise when Dr. Watson's narration included the sentence: "Holmes!", I ejaculated.

So what is the difference between a cartridge and a shell? One is for a shotgun?

Pistol v revolver is like dog v collie: all collies are dogs but not all dogs are collies.

savanahsdad
January 14, 2014, 10:33 PM
muzzle blast / report / the loud bang out the end of barrel :what:

PapaG
January 15, 2014, 10:43 AM
Daniel Silva, in his books, refers to the "slider" in reference to the slide on a pistol, or the bolt on a rifle. Also...clip..

zorro45
January 15, 2014, 11:15 PM
I got chastised at camp for referring to my .22 rifle as a "weapon" but growing up in my house, my dad was an Army guy, and all our guns were "weapons" and to the many ducks, geese, squirrels, deer etc. that fell to them, I'll bet those critters thought of them that way as well.

savanahsdad
January 15, 2014, 11:52 PM
I got chastised at camp for referring to my .22 rifle as a "weapon" but growing up in my house, my dad was an Army guy, and all our guns were "weapons" and to the many ducks, geese, squirrels, deer etc. that fell to them, I'll bet those critters thought of them that way as well.
I'm guessing your camp buddies never saw "Full Metal Jacket "

larryh1108
January 16, 2014, 08:40 AM
So, the guy who invented the revolving pistol is wrong. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

The company that produces gun magazines and calls them clips is wrong because some here say so.

And the same people who are offended by misuse of certain words have no problem, what-so-ever, with the way we name ammo? Really? Is a .357 really .357? Can you explain rifle cartridges where it makes sense and has organization? How many different .45s are there? This makes sense, how?

scythefwd
January 17, 2014, 10:20 AM
Thats the rub cf.. any of the definitions are correct. There is no ONE correct definition (the being singular)

That said, trade vs. common use are two different things. In the electrical trade, motor may carry a very specific application, which is electric only. In the rest of the world, the engine is a motor. Tradesmen dont have to like it, but it would be nice if the understood that they are talking to folks who dont use the term in the same manner because they aren't speaking about it from the same perspective. I could rant and rave about CPU being used wrong, or memory being used wrong.. but to be fair, the function of a hard disk drive IS memory (but is different in the IT world).

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