USM4 ATF Approved Full Auto


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AWorthyOpponent
January 9, 2014, 02:10 PM
Got to see one of these today in person. It's a select fire lower, that uses bump fire to get around the "one shot per trigger pull" definition. Unlike the silly (IMO) bump fire stock, the weapon remains completely still and operates the same as an actual NFA in terms of use. How it works is actually quite simple. Switching the weapon to "auto" moves something and allows the trigger group to move around inside the weapon. The trigger group moves as the weapon cycles. Theoretically that lets the trigger cycle each time the weapon is fired...check out the video. Will try to get my own video if I can...

http://usautoweapons.com/usm4/

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Trent
January 9, 2014, 02:15 PM
Yeeaaah... I can see them changing their minds on that sooner, than later.

MachIVshooter
January 9, 2014, 02:17 PM
I would be very interested in seeing one up close, would like to know how they managed this, since anything mechanical that assists the bump firing action (such as a return spring in a bump fire stock) is not legal.

AWorthyOpponent
January 9, 2014, 02:21 PM
It looks like something moves and simply allows the trigger group to move back and forth just enough to reset on blowback, and pushes it forward when the bolt seats...no springs or anything...

Very unique and I have seen the ATF letter...how could they go back on it...?

Trent
January 9, 2014, 02:26 PM
Very unique and I have seen the ATF letter...how could they go back on it...?

Let me count the ways.... They've gone back on their word before.

Sorry, don't have enough fingers.

:)

Quiet
January 9, 2014, 02:27 PM
It looks like something moves and simply allows the trigger group to move back and forth just enough to reset on blowback, and pushes it forward when the bolt seats...no springs or anything...

Very unique and I have seen the ATF letter...how could they go back on it...?

Because they can.

There's precedent in which the BATFE approved a device as not a MG and, after several hundred were sold, then changed their minds and declared it a MG.

Trent
January 9, 2014, 02:29 PM
They also banned all shoelaces, at one point in time, declaring a 14" piece of shoestring as an NFA item.

http://www.saysuncle.com/images/shoestringmg.JPG

Note the serial # tag crimped on, this one was registered as a machinegun by the SOT.

CharlieDeltaJuliet
January 9, 2014, 02:39 PM
Yep, you have to surrender it and basically lose your money...

Trent
January 9, 2014, 02:42 PM
Also, the BATF's reversals can be retroactive and destroy grandfathering provisions everyone previously thought were intact.

Their capability to do so is still meandering through the slow appeals process but as of the last update I saw, it does NOT bode well. The last ruling threw open the door for anyone possessing certain items which were previously thought to be grandfathered, as NOT grandfathered, which places a large amount of gun owners at risk for owning something that was previously thought to be grandfathered (old FN-FAL's, certain open bolt pistols, etc).

Basically items which were possessed prior to the ATF's rulings, were assumed to be grandfathered, but now the Federal court says "no", they are not. Once the BATF rules that something is prohibited, it *is* prohibited, across the board, no exceptions for date of acquisition or manufacture.

http://www.firearmscoalition.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=673:atf-exception-reversed&catid=19:the-knox-update&Itemid=144

This makes any of the stuff now pretty dangerous; e.g. Slide-fire, or whatever the new variant will be.

If they make it contraband at some point it will be retroactive, at least in that federal district. (6th circuit).

We have a contradictory ruling in the 7th circuit - stating that machineguns produced after the ban are not subject to the NFA, as there is no way to PAY the tax on them at this point, which makes the NFA unconstitutional. That case (http://www.constitution.org/2ll/court/fed/us_v_rock_island.htm) went very strongly in our favor.


In sum, since enactment of 18 U.S.C. 922(o), the Secretary has refused to accept any tax payments to make or transfer a machinegun made after May 19, 1986, to approve any such making or transfer, or to register any such machinegun. As applied to machineguns made and possessed after May 19, 1986, the registration and other requirements of the National Firearms Act, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code, no longer serve any revenue purpose, and are impliedly repealed or are unconstitutional. Accordingly, Counts 1(a) and (b), 2, and 3 of the superseding indictment are

DISMISSED.


Emphasis added.

So now we have case law which is contradictory in several Federal circuits... which could lead to a nifty show down at some point in the USSC.

Trent
January 9, 2014, 02:43 PM
Yep, you have to surrender it and basically lose your money...

It's worse than that now. Read my post above (we cross-posted). Depending on where you are in the country, you could technically be tried and convicted for possessing it, the instant the ruling comes down from the BATF that it is contraband (6th circuit). Or, (7th circuit), your lawyer could draw on the Rock Island Armory case and cite that the Federal court ruled that the NFA tax was unconstitutional.

NOTE: I'm not a laywer, not offering a legal opinion, and this conversation went sideways; my apologies. Perhaps we can get an actual lawyer who understands Federal case law to give us some additional insight.

Midwest
January 9, 2014, 03:46 PM
Also, the BATF's reversals can be retroactive and destroy grandfathering provisions everyone previously thought were intact.

Yes, correct. They can reclassify anything after it was already sold as a regular firearm. Like it was done for these shotguns, the USAS-12, Striker-12, and Streetsweeper. All of which were reclassified as 'Destructive Devices' after being sold over the counter as a regular firearm.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2001-1.html

Ranger Roberts
January 9, 2014, 03:59 PM
Very unique and I have seen the ATF letter...how could they go back on it...?

Google "original akins accelerator".

Trent
January 9, 2014, 04:05 PM
Yes, correct. They can reclassify anything after it was already sold as a regular firearm. Like it was done for these shotguns, the USAS-12, Striker-12, and Streetsweeper. All of which were reclassified as 'Destructive Devices' after being sold over the counter as a regular firearm.


Well, to be fair, at the time they were classified as destructive devices the option was given to grandfather in existing specimens in the NFA registration. Which effectively banned *unregistered* versions. Technically, if you registered them during the time allotted, they were still legal to possess (but forevermore considered destructive devices).

While another topic, that whole situation with USAS/Streetsweepers/etc, (as well as Mac9's, early FN-FAL's, etc), is worth serious consideration with SAIGA shotguns and the ultimate future those who choose to convert them to a "non-sporting" use may someday face.

US Vs. Aiken demonstrated that despite the Rock Island Armory vs. United States case I cited above, a person who *converts* a firearm from a legitimate title I form, to a restricted (title II destructive device) state, DOES NOT HAVE the protection associated with being a manufacturer. In US Vs. Aiken, the defendant tried to claim he was protected from a 922(o) charge for possession of a sawed off shotgun because he had no method of registering or paying the tax. But as he was not the manufacturer or importer of the firearm, the court said "no way, buddy". (He was also a felon in possession, so he had that going against him as well...) Anyway, not sure where conversion of a firearm from a Title I to a Title II destructive device would apply, if Saigas in a post import, non-sporting form, were ever declared non-sporting (and thus a destructive device).

Straying too far though.

Question - Is this is a newly manufactured receiver, or a trigger pack, or ???

Anyone have a copy of the letter?

jlbraun
January 9, 2014, 04:09 PM
From the BATFU's perspective, it is better to issue a letter saying something is OK, let someone sink their savings into it, then declare it retroactively illegal and bankrupt them. This hurts gun owners more and destroys more small businesses than if they declared it illegal in the first place.

Assume government is trying to screw you, and everything makes way more sense.

CLP
January 9, 2014, 04:16 PM
They also banned all shoelaces, at one point in time, declaring a 14" piece of shoestring as an NFA item.

http://www.saysuncle.com/images/shoestringmg.JPG

Note the serial # tag crimped on, this one was registered as a machinegun by the SOT.
That's probably the most expensive piece of string in existence!

Queen_of_Thunder
January 9, 2014, 04:21 PM
A LGS has one for sale and another LGS has 13 on order. Price is in the $990 range for the complete lower with this trigger setup. I know it has a letter that comes with it but if a local LE persons looks at it they will assume its a full auto since there is an auto selection. I'm quite sure it will cause an owner quite a bit of trouble and time convincing LE, even with the letter that is ok to have the firearm.

marv
January 9, 2014, 04:29 PM
I find it ironic that with today's near critical ammo shortages, people are designing ways to shoot the stuff up faster.

Ranger Roberts
January 9, 2014, 04:30 PM
I find it ironic that with today's near critical ammo shortages, people are designing ways to shoot the stuff up faster.

Thank the gun gods for reloading equipment!

SharpsDressedMan
January 9, 2014, 04:37 PM
Don't ask, don't tell. :D

Arizona_Mike
January 9, 2014, 04:47 PM
Next time I am in Scottsdale I will drop by and ask those folks some questions. I know TacCon has a drop in bumpfire trigger. I'd rather put a trigger in my registered SBR lower than buy a lower I can only use with long barrels.

Link since this forum does not appear to allow embedded video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQtCTUq4Y_I

Mike

PS. I did some more searching and it looks like the USM4 uses the TacCon Trigger.

Trent
January 9, 2014, 04:55 PM
I find it ironic that with today's near critical ammo shortages, people are designing ways to shoot the stuff up faster.

Haha same here. I have a semi-auto MG42, and I've been asked (many, many times) "Why would you want a semi auto belt fed? What's the point?"

The point is modern factory ammo for 8x57mm costs $0.80 cents a shot, I can regulate that better in semi-auto. If I owned a full auto version - aside from the trouble of having to relocate to a friendly state, find one that's transferrable, and paying several tens of thousands of dollars for the specimen - it would burn through (up to) 1500 rounds per minute.

That's 25 rounds per second.

Or, $20 per second using Prvi Partizan, which is about the cheapest factory ammo on the market right now.

Put in to context, that's $1200 per minute.

Full auto is fun to shoot, don't get me wrong, I love going to KCR machinegun shoots as much as the next guy does to play with exotic hardware. But the ammo prices in the twenty-teens are nasty, and even if I did own one, it would just collect dust.

(MG-34 would be better, IMO, because at least it was select fire.)

Trent
January 9, 2014, 04:59 PM
Thank the gun gods for reloading equipment!

This was far more true in the days of cheap military pull-down components.

Today... the gap is much narrower. Can't just run out and pick up a 50 cal can full of 55gr FMJ projectiles for 3 or 4 cents a round, like you could back in the early 2000's.

AWorthyOpponent
January 9, 2014, 05:57 PM
I think the good thing to point out is that the ATF approved it...whether or not they try to retroactively ban it, the point is that someone up there was okay with it...i think thats what we should be looking at as a positive. Maybe a few letters thanking the people responsible for doing the right thing and approving it to begin with are in order...lord only knows that's how the people that are against it are going to start trying to ban it...

I wanted to look into registering one as an SBR...with the tax stamp involved, would that cover the NFA side if it were retracted...?

Telekinesis
January 9, 2014, 06:49 PM
I wanted to look into registering one as an SBR...with the tax stamp involved, would that cover the NFA side if it were retracted...?

Only as far as having a short upper on the gun. If the ATF decided to reclassify the trigger as a machine gun you'd be out of luck as no new machine guns can be added to the registry.

Honestly I'm glad that people are willing to push the envelope with these pseudo-full auto trigger groups. On the other hand, I've come to the decision that I'm not going to buy one until they've been on the market for a while. I don't want to be in the position of having to surrender or destroy my gun if the ATF has a change of heart.

pjeski
January 9, 2014, 06:55 PM
I wanted to look into registering one as an SBR...with the tax stamp involved, would that cover the NFA side if it were retracted...?
No.

Trent
January 9, 2014, 07:02 PM
Honestly I'm glad that people are willing to push the envelope with these pseudo-full auto trigger groups. On the other hand, I've come to the decision that I'm not going to buy one until they've been on the market for a while. I don't want to be in the position of having to surrender or destroy my gun if the ATF has a change of heart.

I'm also glad people are doing it. Hearing incredibly fast rapid fire on the ranges more and more frequently in the last year. Get enough of that going on and it'll force the issue to a head. What are they going to do? Close the NFA again? Lol. We already lost the right. Nothing to lose.

BigShep85
January 9, 2014, 07:31 PM
I am getting one of these

strambo
January 9, 2014, 08:14 PM
It is just a regular lower with the new (as yet to hit the streets) TACCON trigger group. The trigger alone is $500. Is a 3-position selector, bump fire trigger worth $500? You be the judge, me, I'm gonna wait for user reviews, then if I want one pick it up for 1/2 price used.

Better yet, the Geissele S3G is the pinnacle of fast-short reset single stage AR triggers, is proven and is half as much. There are youtube vids of folks running the S3G what seems to be faster than that promo video.

I'm really glad this product is coming out and getting all this buzz and selling so well, I hope it does start to change how silly the NFA is and how it is viewed. Probably not though, but it is at least new and innovative.

I don't want to be in the position of having to surrender or destroy my gun if the ATF has a change of heart.This is a worry, but you'd be out the $500 trigger group not the whole rifle. Just throw a standard AR trigger in and get rid of the TACCON unit. Would still suck though.

ApacheCoTodd
January 9, 2014, 08:29 PM
I suspect enough of these will be allowed out there with the full intention of addressing the interpretation of the regulation and the ownership of soon to be banned items.

They know exactly what they're doing and we'll be able to look back in hindsight and see the plan in mirror image.

There's a customer list I don't want to be on.

What part of - more than a single round with a single pull of the trigger - is hard to understand?

Besides, I'm not breaking banzai attacks and reloading not withstanding am not made of money either. I just passed on a freon powered BB machine gun 'cause I couldn't even be bothered with that.

Maybe I'm just a quality over quantity kinda guy.

torqem
January 9, 2014, 08:30 PM
You can miss just as fast as any full auto, simply by "fanning"the trigger of a semi auto., so why bother with them? Other than a belt fed on a bipod, they really don't amount to a hoot in hell. To fan the trigger, simply hold the gun at the hi-firing position, stick your weak hand's forefinger into the trigger guard. Hold that hand palm down, and just "vibrate" your hand back and forth. It will fire at about 600 rpm. Jerry Miculek has a video about him doing, on youtube. I think it's on the one where he's using a 27 rd mag in a 9mm 1911.

strambo
January 9, 2014, 08:38 PM
What part of - more than a single round with a single pull of the trigger - is hard to understand?The trigger is semi-auto, it has to be pulled each time. It is just set up such that it can be bump-fired after learning whatever the technique is. Still 1 rd per trigger pull, hence ATF letter interpreted legal (for now :uhoh:).

r1derbike
January 10, 2014, 12:07 AM
Sounds like a gimmicky, overpriced toy. Then there is the hundreds of dollars of wasted ammo tag attached to it.

Mmmm, no thanks!

tyeo098
January 10, 2014, 12:09 AM
I like the trigger that uses super-awful trigger slap to reset the trigger.

Pull backwards on the trigger, and the bolt carrier slaps it back to ready, where you are still pulling... full auto :)

TacCon! Thats the company. Makes me think 'HEY I can build that...'

Sounds like a gimmicky, overpriced toy. Then there is the hundreds of dollars of wasted ammo tag attached to it.
Word for word that's what my mom said about my first firearm.

It was a Mosin.

r1derbike
January 10, 2014, 12:41 AM
I like the trigger that uses super-awful trigger slap to reset the trigger.

Pull backwards on the trigger, and the bolt carrier slaps it back to ready, where you are still pulling... full auto :)

TacCon! Thats the company. Makes me think 'HEY I can build that...'


Word for word that's what my mom said about my first firearm.

It was a Mosin.Har! A Mosin is a most noble outlay of funds. Wish I had one!

My BIL may get a double-tap out of his AR by how he is holding it and the trigger. He can't explain it. Possibly very loosely holding the AR (artillery hold, in high-powered springer air gun terms)? He is the only one who may do that. Several of us tried his AR and we couldn't duplicate the issue.

AWorthyOpponent
January 10, 2014, 12:42 AM
Shot it today...not impressed...I was really looking forward to purchasing one of these. Not anymore. Might be a good toy, but not something I would trust my life with. And it wasn't a one off problem, as there were three that were tried.

Trigger would work then jam, rendering the weapons we had $3k batons...I'll stick with my semiauto...

MachIVshooter
January 10, 2014, 02:33 AM
Trigger would work then jam, rendering the weapons we had $3k batons

Somehow that doesn't surprise me. Things moving that were never meant to move.

Even the slide fire stocks can cause jams, but tend to be only a failure to return to battery, easily corrected.

I never could see spending $300+ for any of these things, but do decide it might be fun to have something like that to waste a couple of magazines now and then. So, I built one:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/SSRight_zps17d37f25.jpg

Earlier pic; I later revised my locking pin to something a little more positive, stronger and easier to manipulate.

It works fine. Still, I seldom use it. A couple times a year, a couple magazines at a time. After that, I just cringe too much at the wasted $$$.

Blackhawk30
January 10, 2014, 07:15 AM
ATF is not our friend.They do this deliberately.Create situations that they can later exploit.


#23
AWorthyOpponent
Member


Join Date: May 15, 2009
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 388
I think the good thing to point out is that the ATF approved it...whether or not they try to retroactively ban it, the point is that someone up there was okay with it...i think thats what we should be looking at as a positive. Maybe a few letters thanking the people responsible for doing the right thing and approving it to begin with are in order...lord only knows that's how the people that are against it are going to start trying to ban it...

yzguy87
January 10, 2014, 11:07 AM
I agree with Telekinesis and Trent in that it's good to see more folks pushing the envelope to get more folks exposed to full auto. Read an article last year (I think in Peterson's magazine but not sure) about hunting with suppressors in the US and their gaining popularity. I thought it was a good article that gave some positive and correct info the average joe hunter/shooter could read and help dispell the myths associated with them and actually showed their usefulness.

Sam1911
January 14, 2014, 07:24 PM
Must be the year for these things: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=740204

SeanMTX
January 14, 2014, 07:29 PM
I took a look at these...but the reviews aren't all that great from Shot Show.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...e-tac-con-3mr/

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-auto-trigger/

justice06rr
January 14, 2014, 10:56 PM
I'm not sold on it...

Why not invest in a nice Geissele trigger for around $250, and lots of practice instead?

bushmaster1313
January 15, 2014, 01:11 AM
That looks like a machine gun to me.

jerkface11
January 15, 2014, 01:41 AM
This is a worry, but you'd be out the $500 trigger group not the whole rifle. Just throw a standard AR trigger in and get rid of the TACCON unit. Would still suck though.

Once a machinegun always a machinegun.

Sam1911
January 15, 2014, 08:03 AM
Once a machinegun always a machinegun.Most likely not in this case. That's not how they handled the Akins Accelerators.

jerkface11
January 15, 2014, 10:11 AM
That wasn't a trigger though.

Sam1911
January 15, 2014, 10:20 AM
It also wasn't a firearm. And neither is a trigger.

Carl N. Brown
January 15, 2014, 10:29 AM
If by accident I receive a M1 carbine with too many M2 fire control parts (T17 or T18 field conversion kit) but replace the M2 parts with M1 semi-auto only equivalents, and get rid of the M2 parts, I am ok.

If by accident I receive a M2 carbine marked M2 by the factory, that does fall under the "once a machinegun always a machinegun" even if all M2 fire control parts are replaced with M1 semi-auto only parts.

If ATF decides this simulated full auto fire control group is a real full auto fire control group, by past precendence the FCG will be the restricted item, not the firearm it is attached to.

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