IL - Walmart posts agains carry - sorta


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wtr100
January 12, 2014, 06:46 AM
Over at IL huge discussion on 'No Carry' signs at walmart - I always thought Walmart was one of the 'good guys' at least as far as carry went

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ReBRI9_dMBA/UtHoJOViO9I/AAAAAAAAGzQ/cjsVhO4SwX4/s640/20140111_175830%25280%2529.jpg

My response followes


pick corporate experiance

https://corporate.walmart.com/contact-us/store-corporate-feedback

Your store on North Allen road has signs prohibiting concealed carry by lawful permit holders at all entrances. They attempted to modify the signs to only cover Walmart employees and vendors.

I do not believe the State of IL allows Walmart to modify the law in this way and if I was legally carrying in Walmart and a customer noticed and called police I believe I would be arrested for violating IL law.

Sadly I will not shop Walmart until the signs are removed

In addition as an Illinois State Concealed Carry instructor I will advise my students of the risk of arrest should they choose to shop Walmart while legally carrying.

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ole farmerbuck
January 12, 2014, 07:00 AM
Read the fine print on the sign. There's already a thread about it.

Charlie Horse
January 12, 2014, 07:04 AM
I dunno, looks like they are opposed to anyone working or delivering to Wal-Mart carrying a Beretta 92 or variants thereof. If I carried one of my Glocks or my 1911, maybe it'd be cool...

JRWhit
January 12, 2014, 07:31 AM
I believe this is most likely one manager at one store. When the Castle Doctrine came to be in my state, and CCW was suddenly a center of attention, Walmart initially put up signs posting ," No Conceal carry". After about two weeks, all signs were removed from all locations local to me and I haven't noticed one posted since.
Difference in my state, a posted sign is only a rule of the property owner and not law. If you are discovered carrying, you can only be asked to leave. If you are discovered again at the same place, you could face a misdemeanor trespass fine.

ilbob
January 12, 2014, 07:46 AM
IMO they have posted a sign IAW the FCCA. That triggers the law that bans FCCL holders from carrying there. There is nothing in the law that would allow the property owner to make it selective. It is an all or nothing thing.

They can still have an enforceable policy that bans employees and vendors from carrying while on the clock, but that sign bans it for all FCCL holders.

wtr100
January 12, 2014, 09:32 AM
I believe this is most likely one manager at one store. When the Castle Doctrine came to be in my state, and CCW was suddenly a center of attention, Walmart initially put up signs posting ," No Conceal carry". After about two weeks, all signs were removed from all locations local to me and I haven't noticed one posted since.
Difference in my state, a posted sign is only a rule of the property owner and not law. If you are discovered carrying, you can only be asked to leave. If you are discovered again at the same place, you could face a misdemeanor trespass fine.
Seems to be several stores in Il

While I'm sure Walmart staff wouldn't make a police call other shoppers might - then it comes down to the responding officer - I try to deal as little as possible with the King's Men in their duties for the crown ...

hso
January 12, 2014, 09:55 AM
The sign focuses only on the on-duty Associates and Vendors so the letter needs to be revamped, BUT the point is well made that by citing the state law and the state law makes no provision for selective application the posting can be considered to apply to everyone.

The posting probably did not come from WalMart corporate since their legal folks wouldn't make such a mistake. That implies that it is a local or regional manager issue and Corp WalMart needs to be engaged to get the responsible manager(s) to remove the posting (and to discipline the manager involved).

Ash
January 12, 2014, 10:02 AM
I don't know. Doesn't it depend on where it is posted? If it is in employee-only areas, wouldn't it make the sign part of employee policy and not general public? Does it's presence on the wall in an employee section impart employee policy information or not?

wtr100
January 12, 2014, 10:11 AM
I don't know. Doesn't it depend on where it is posted? If it is in employee-only areas, wouldn't it make the sign part of employee policy and not general public? Does it's presence on the wall in an employee section impart employee policy information or not?
It's on all entrances - Sam's Club as well

wtr100
January 12, 2014, 10:13 AM
The sign focuses only on the on-duty Associates and Vendors so the letter needs to be revamped, BUT the point is well made that by citing the state law and the state law makes no provision for selective application the posting can be considered to apply to everyone.

The posting probably did not come from WalMart corporate since their legal folks wouldn't make such a mistake. That implies that it is a local or regional manager issue and Corp WalMart needs to be engaged to get the responsible manager(s) to remove the posting (and to discipline the manager involved).
I'm guessing regional - they seem to be popping up like mushrooms (or athlete's foot to not malign a noble and tasty fungus) all over the state

wtr100
January 13, 2014, 12:48 PM
Couple replies from WM


The first says we did it because we're required to , the second is after I pointed out the ISP FAQ stating employers should NOT do this.

I think the time is right for folks to put on more pressure - even if only through the web site


Dear Phil,

Wal-Mart and Sam's Club fully support the people's 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. We
are required to post the signage that you have seen on our doors. Our signage is very
clear that "This prohibition applies only to on-duty Sam's Club associates and
vendors.
Any Customer coming in to shop is able to carry, and will be doing so lawfully, as long
as they have the appropriate concealed carry credential.

I am not knowledgable of Costco's policy. However our policy at Wal-Mart and Sam's Club
is the same for all locations in the country. Our company, being as large as it is, it is
understandable why they restrict associates and vendors to carry on "on-Duty
Time".

We value your business. Please let me know if you have further concerns.

Sincerely,
Margaret A Moon
Sam's Club Peoria
1-309-691-4545





Dear Phil,

I did some research last night, and I fully understand your concern. I am contacting our
legal department today.

Please understand that the Management in the Wal-Mart Stores, and Sam's Clubs are
following the Company direction at this time.

I will follow through until this is resolved.

We appreciate your feedback, and I will be in contact with you, as soon as I hear a
reply. It may take a couple of days for research.

Sincerely,
Margaret Moon
Sam's Club Peoria
1-309-691-4545

hso
January 13, 2014, 01:06 PM
wtr100,

Should emails be sent directly to Ms. Moon (polite, respectful, emails) or to a more general email address?

wtr100
January 13, 2014, 01:10 PM
wtr100,

Should emails be sent directly to Ms. Moon (polite, respectful, emails) or to a more general email address?
I'd use the link below

https://corporate.walmart.com/contact-us/store-corporate-feedback

select 0 Store Experience and next

hso
January 13, 2014, 01:26 PM
Thanks

I sent a quick note to them referencing the 1204 Avenue Of Mid America, Effingham, IL store.

wtr100
January 13, 2014, 02:05 PM
Thanks

I sent a quick note to them referencing the 1204 Avenue Of Mid America, Effingham, IL store.
Good man - not to 'game the system' but it seems when individual stores are identified it gets routed to that store.

so nothing is to stop someone in a free state from lending a hand by picking a random walmart in IL

hso
January 13, 2014, 02:15 PM
I've been in Effingham (not too far from the DoE/USEC facilities in Paducah) so it was "reasonable" for me to pick them.

I suggest everyone that can find a reasonable store to pick use it as context for their notes to WalMart, but point out that this is now out on the internet and WalMart is being seen as having turned Anti because of it.

LeftyTSGC
January 13, 2014, 04:10 PM
This must be an isolated incident. In Alabama we have an open carry law and we have many that carry both open and concealed in WalMart. No signs, at least for now, hope that issue does not spread to here.:scrutiny:

wtr100
January 13, 2014, 06:41 PM
definitely and IL thing

some rocket surgeon in AR came up with it

Trent
January 13, 2014, 07:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/g2xerZF.png


Store selected was the one closest to me, Pekin IL

22-rimfire
January 14, 2014, 09:06 AM
I'm not a lawyer, so to me the sign simply means exactly what it says that vendors and employees are prohibited from carrying a firearm inside this store. I would act accordingly if I were to enter this store carrying a concealed firearm.

I suspect that employees were already prohibited from carrying inside this Walmart anyway via company policy.

wtr100
January 14, 2014, 09:17 AM
I'm not a lawyer, so to me the sign simply means exactly what it says that vendors and employees are prohibited from carrying a firearm inside this store. I would act accordingly if I were to enter this store carrying a concealed firearm.

I suspect that employees were already prohibited from carrying inside this Walmart anyway via company policy.
But the ISP specifally says not to do this



IL State Police FAQ

https://ccl4illinois.com/ccw/Public/ISPFaq.aspx

Q) What if a business owner or employer wants to prohibit their employees from carrying in the workplace, can they have more restrictive employment policies? And, if they do so, should they post the required sign?

A) This is an employment law question. The Illinois State Police cannot give legal advice to employers; however, the law is not written to preempt a private employer’s right to have more restrictive employment policies. If a business owner or employer wants to prohibit only employees, they should not post the required sign as doing so makes the location a prohibited place. Rather, this should be addressed through appropriate employment policies.

22-rimfire
January 14, 2014, 09:33 AM
Again, I am not a lawyer and I know that pretending to be a lawyer just gets you in a lot of un-necessary trouble. WM included Vendors in addition to employees. I believe it is a feel good sign for their customers and the anti gun customers will most likely see the sign as a prohibition for carrying a firearm inside the store which is not WM's intention. If Walmart wanted to prohibt everyone inside the store, then the sign would have been much simpler to create and make it all encompassing.

The Question and Answer cited is not law. It is only a guide. You have to read the actual statute.

JERRY
January 14, 2014, 09:41 AM
the restricted personnel seems to apply this only to wal-mart employees... more like employee policies than law.

wtr100
January 14, 2014, 12:54 PM
Again, I am not a lawyer and I know that pretending to be a lawyer just gets you in a lot of un-necessary trouble. WM included Vendors in addition to employees. I believe it is a feel good sign for their customers and the anti gun customers will most likely see the sign as a prohibition for carrying a firearm inside the store which is not WM's intention. If Walmart wanted to prohibt everyone inside the store, then the sign would have been much simpler to create and make it all encompassing.

The Question and Answer cited is not law. It is only a guide. You have to read the actual statute.
I have read the statute and the JCAR rules proposed by the ISP - neither makes a provision for amendatory language on the sign.

Since the sign has the proper graphic and the Il statute a responding officer, when a sheeple not walmart employee makes a 911 man with gun , could conclude that it's a prohibited area and hook you up.

Granted a lot of things would have to happen, first if it's concealed the sheeple will not be alarmed and life goes on. Second the responding officer might use judgment conclude that since Walmart didn't intend to keep lawful carriers out and sends you on your way. Third I guess if you get hooked up and the persecutor cuts you loose when the decline to persecute

I'm telling my students to be wary until the signs come down or change radically

Ash
January 14, 2014, 10:19 PM
After the Open Carry law went into effect, the local Hardees posted a sign that firearms were not allowed. However, as a part of the sign, it stated that CCW firearms were permitted. This is MS, of course, but it seemed clear what was, and was not, allowed on that property.

wtr100
January 15, 2014, 11:58 PM
Gun Saves Lives .com is reporting the signs are coming down

bravo zulu people ...


We’ve seen reports that Wal-Mart is taking down the “No Guns” signage, thanks to gun owners politely contacting them and explaining the confusion the signs were causing. GSL joined with other gun rights groups in encouraging gun owners to make their voices heard and with a little tact and finesse, it seems the signs are coming down as we wanted.


http://www.gunssavelife.com/?p=10506

Trent
January 16, 2014, 11:30 AM
Very nice. :)

Amazing what happens when grassroots movements get rolling.

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