.30 caliber AR options


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mainecoon
January 12, 2014, 09:21 AM
I don't know much about ARs but was wondering if there are any loads that approximate the performance of a 270/30.06 and cost about the same amount. I have read a lot about ARs being used for deer hunting, but are they suitable for larger game as well, or is it better to go with a traditional rifle?

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mac66
January 12, 2014, 09:33 AM
ARs come in .308 which has been used to take every kind of animal in north America. It is close enough to a 30-06 to not make a difference.

I've personally killed white tail, mule deer, antelope, caribou, black bears with a 308 (bolt action), some at very long distances.

The disavantage to a AR in 308 (I do have one, a Ruger SR762) is they tend to be heavy compared to the smaller, lightweight, compact bolt action.

I will probably hunt with my Ruger next year for white tail deer, but only because I want to take a deer with it, not because I think it is the best thing to use.

strambo
January 12, 2014, 09:34 AM
There isn't anything in an AR15 that does. The magwell is too small. Closest would be the 6.5 Grendel cartridge.

In the AR10 size (larger, more expensive) there are more options such as 308, 243 etc. A traditional bolt action rifle will have more power (as much as you can handle), be lighter, and cost a whole lot less.

Cemetery21
January 12, 2014, 10:08 AM
First, I'll assume by AR that you mean the short action .223/5.56 size AR platform. There are a few commercial calibers in the 270/30.06 "range". They do not equal the performance of the 270/30.06. They fire similar caliber bullets, but generally in the lighter weights.

30 Rem AR is a true 30 caliber round, much shorter brass than the 30.06. To my knowledge, brass and ammo has not been available for a year or more.

7.62 x 39 is the AK/SKS cartridge, which generally uses a .311" diameter bullet instead of the US 30 Cal .308" bullet. Performance similar to 30-30, but with lighter bullets. Lots of ammo available, but generally the round has some feeding issues in the AR standard mag well design. There are dedicated 7.62x39 AR lower receivers designed to use AK magazines for more reliable feeding.

300 Whisper/Blackout uses a .308 bullet in a much smaller case than 30.06. Performance is a little less than 7.62x39 and 30-30. Ammo, when available, is relatively expensive. For the handloader, brass can be easily formed from 223 and economically loaded.

6.8 Rem SPC uses a .270 bullet in generally lighter weights than 270 Win. Again, it is a shorter case and has less muzzle velocity than 270. Ammo is available online, but probably not on the shelves of many gun shops.

All of the above have been used successfully on deer. Of those, IMHO, the 6.8 Rem SPC is probably the best performer with ammo being available.

There are other calibers being used in the short AR action, but I don't recall any other commercially made ammo using 270 or 30 cal. size bullets.

6.5 Grendel uses a slightly smaller diameter bullet than 270 and has a little better long range potential than the 6.8 Rem SPC. I believe some ammo is available online.

Now, if you want to expand the conversation to "long" action ARs - commonly referred to as AR-10, then you get into .308 and similar sized cartridges which can certainly compare to 270 and 30-06 performance.

68wj
January 12, 2014, 10:24 AM
What do you mean by larger game? 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G have been used to take elk and bear. A mini 14 in 6.8 was used to drop a grizz in Canada even. I would not confuse either with large cartridges though. Lighter bullets with less velocity still maintain great performance for an AR15, but that is relative. I have no doubts about my 6.8 SPC for anything in the Southeast, but would probably take something larger for anything referred to as a bull instead of a buck.

hatt
January 12, 2014, 12:44 PM
For hunting go with a traditional rifle.

Dean1818
January 12, 2014, 02:51 PM
Love my 6.8. Bison Armory

It puts the hurt on some very large Texas boars......

The 120SST from Hornady is my DRT bullet .

W.E.G.
January 12, 2014, 02:59 PM
I don't know what you're gonna hunt with a .270 or 30-06 that wouldn't drop just as quickly from a .308.

Welding Rod
January 12, 2014, 03:15 PM
The Smith and Wesson M&P 10 is a .308 and is admirably light for an AR10 platform. I think it would make for a nice hunting gun, as well as a great home defense and militia arm.

Palehorseman
January 12, 2014, 11:14 PM
I would like to take a look at the new Ruger SR-762 in 7.62x51 they come out with, MSRP is $2195.00.

http://www.gunnuts.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Ruger-SR-762-Profile-1024x322.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfIupprJPpw

TIMC
January 12, 2014, 11:26 PM
How big do you want to go and how far do you want to shoot? They do make AR's in .338 Lapua, .450 Bushmaster, .50 Beowulf.

Palehorseman
January 12, 2014, 11:31 PM
7.62x51 would be fine for my wants.

hatt
January 13, 2014, 12:05 AM
I would like to take a look at the new Ruger SR-762 in 7.62x51 they come out with, MSRP is $2195.00.
$2200 for an 8 1/2 pound .308 deer rifle with extra bulk. Don't know how we ever made it without such things. :what:

sfed
January 13, 2014, 03:57 AM
I just saw it tonight looking for uppers for AR 15`s, Franklin Arms is selling a 308 AR 15 upper that is shot like a single shot rifle due to the length of the 308 round. It will eject the empty and hold the bolt back so you can load another 308 round. The price is ridicules though, almost $800 if I remember correctly. I never would have believed it if I had not seen it myself. Spending that much on an upper I would just get a bolt action 308 instead.

Tirod
January 13, 2014, 11:43 AM
You pick the cartridge to suit the range and game you expect to encounter. Whether it's done with a self loading action or not is something completely separate.

If you know your target is usually a single animal, and that you are likely only going to get one shot at it, the bolt gun will do it. They are preferred for ground hog or antelope because the game and range are easily accommodated.

If you are hunting whitetail in broken woodland and edge, then the bolt action can and will work against you. First, the terrain alone may interfere with finding or even seeing the game until they step into view - and there is no guarantee they will stop broadside and wait for you to get a shot off. Hunting Missouri woodland for over 35 years, they are usually within 50 yards and seem to materialize as if by transporter. They are quiet, their color easily blends in, and difficult to see against a backdrop of fallen leaves and tree trunks. In sunny weather they lay up, on cloudy damp days they forage, and these tendencies mean that when you see one, you get a window of opportunity for just a few seconds. You need to acquire a sight picture and pull off a shot, no hesitation.

That means a shorter range round is all that is needed.

Once that shot is taken, the hunter then iconfirms the shot was placed well enough to bring down the game. Good luck with that, they usually run downhill to hide in the worst possible place. The only gun I have ever seen that would anchor a deer, even with a badly placed shot, was an 8mm Rem Mag 700. All the rest of the deer immediately took flight.

At that point another well placed shot could save you hours of tracking, and likely prevent the loss of a wounded animal.

Here's where the AR has it all over a bolt action - with the AR, you are still looking at the game and still have your finger on the trigger, ready to pull it the second the deer doesn't go down. With the bolt action, you have already lost the sight picture from recoil, you are working the bolt, making even more noise for the animal to pinpoint your location, and then taking longer to reacquire the sight picture to pull the trigger again. The clock is ticking and the deer isn't hanging around to give you a sporting chance.

It's been my experience that the guys I'm with, using a self loading action, take one shot and get their game. The public I've seen walking in with bolt action guns empty the magazine. You can hear the caliber and timing. It's not hard to figure out what's going on.

The AR is superior at knocking down one deer because of it. And if you go hunting for game like hogs, which are known for their toughness and difficult nature, you can hit more of them more quickly and more surely. A bolt gun would limit the average hunter.

It is, in fact, why the bolt action was discarded for the military and we went to repeaters. They don't punish the shooter as much, and they were more inclined to take a shot, and repeat it. And that is why the AR became dominant 45 years ago, the average human shoots it more accurately and sooner, because it is more pleasant to shoot. In Service Rifle, the M16 has the advantage in Rapid Fire because of less recoil, and they are also less expensive to make accurate.

I sold off the HK91, given up entirely on the .30-06 scoped 700, and sidelined the Ring Carbine. I use an AR in 6.8SPC now, partly because hauling the M16 around for weeks made it second nature, partly because it just does things better and easier.

It's much easier to unload than a bolt gun, which helps on all those fences and gates we are supposed to be crossing safely. It helps at day end, it doesn't cycle all the ammo and set back all the rounds or scratch them up, making the ammo reliably accurate. It doesn't interfere with a second shot when needed, and it's not giving me any second thoughts or flinch to deal with. Pull the trigger and enjoy.

Is the AR a good hunting rifle? You bet, for the same reasons so many adopted surplus rifles like the .03, Mauser, etc. They were more rugged and better than the expensive and hard to care for civilian rifles that require a manual to disassemble to clean. The AR is easiest of all in that regard, extremely durable, and you don't much worry about it getting wet or dirty. It's a tool designed to do what you need - make a shot, not get in your way doing it.

All the alternative calibers we now see in the AR world are exactly for hunting. It's the largest growing segment in firearms and has been for ten years. Where I was the only guy in hundreds of miles carrying a modern self loading military rifle in the '70's, it's now commonly accepted. It's the lever or bolt gunner who is now fast becoming the minority, and there's a reason for that, same as it was after WWII. Civilian designs just don't cut it in the competitive marketplace. Then the price of surplus arms was hard to ignore, now the superiority of the action justifies the slightly higher price.

Frankly, if I wanted to make hunting difficult, MO has a season for sharpened sticks. I don't, deer aren't really that abundant, and I don't need to further limit my opportunity by using a traditional gun.

hatt
January 13, 2014, 12:17 PM
The only gun I have ever seen that would anchor a deer, even with a badly placed shot, was an 8mm Rem Mag 700.
There was so much misinformation to comment on in your post I just decided to quote one thing that I believe summed up the rest.

ugaarguy
January 13, 2014, 12:29 PM
There was so much misinformation to comment on in your post I just decided to quote one thing that I believe summed up the rest.
Please explain to us how the facts and experience Tirod have presented are such massive misinformation.

yzguy87
January 13, 2014, 01:05 PM
If you want the performance of a 270 or 30-06 in an AR platform then why not get one?:)

http://www.onlylongrange.com/bn36.asp

TIMC
January 13, 2014, 01:17 PM
7.62x51 would be fine for my wants.

I have owned several AR-10's, Bushmaster, DPMS and now an FD308, all have been very good accurate shooters. TheFD308 is very compact feeling and gives a very AR15 kind of feel but she is still a hefty girl at 14 pounds fully loaded with 20 rounds of .308 and the Leupold 8.5-26 Mark 4. Add another pound for the suppressor. If weight is not going to be a problem then you will probably love a nice AR-10. I almost exclusively hunt with one anymore even though I have some very fine bolt rifles.

On the other hand she is a darn accurate rifle and good long range shooter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/5B01B942-CF76-4C96-9D9D-8BB29E18357B-16059-0000281F85444A8D_zps70f0d4dc.jpg

Palehorseman
January 13, 2014, 02:50 PM
$2200 for an 8 1/2 pound .308 deer rifle with extra bulk. Don't know how we ever made it without such things. :what:

So, perchance you could enlighten me as to one of your fav rifles? And I will reply in kind with sarcastic remarks as to it's merits.

If I got it, deer hunting would be the farthest thing from my mind.

fragout
January 13, 2014, 03:52 PM
I don't know much about ARs but was wondering if there are any loads that approximate the performance of a 270/30.06 and cost about the same amount. I have read a lot about ARs being used for deer hunting, but are they suitable for larger game as well, or is it better to go with a traditional rifle?
===========================================================================================

As already mentioned, a 308 chambered semi automatic rifle will work just fine, and kill anything a 270/30-06 rifle will kill...provided all other factors are equal. (Shot placement, etc..)
My experience has run along the same lines as Tirod's have, and I prefer the advantages of a semiautomatic rifle over a bolt action much as he described.



I have used an 18in bbl M14S to take coyotes, hogs, 3 species of deer, bear, and elk so far, and they all ended up in the freezer after one shot. ( 165gr SGK BTSP, as this paticular rifle shoots it well)

As 308 chambered AR types go, I have a Ruger SR762. I have taken a few hogs with it,and wouldnt have any problems hunting anything else with the rifle on this continent.... once I develop some loads for this specific rifle.

It weighs out at 8.5 lbs empty, and sells with decent iron sights, 3 mags, and a soft case among other items.

Mine was picked up at about $500 less than MSRP.

mooner
January 13, 2014, 04:56 PM
Please explain to us how the facts and experience Tirod have presented are such massive misinformation.

It was not me that called the post full of misinformation, but I'll give it a try.

It's been my experience that the guys I'm with, using a self loading action, take one shot and get their game. The public I've seen walking in with bolt action guns empty the magazine. You can hear the caliber and timing. It's not hard to figure out what's going on.


While this experience may be true - to somehow equate this with the equipment the bolt action hunters are using is a bit of a stretch. For example, when I hear multiple shots where I hunt, the cadence indicates a semi auto. By the logic used above could I conclude that those using a semi auto must be using an ineffective tool for hunting because they require multiple shots? We all know that one well placed shot with an effective cartridge is all that is needed to drop a deer. As they say, it is the Indian - not the arrow.

By the way, I just put together an AR in 6.8 SPC and am very much looking forward to using it next year to take a whitetail. It is certainly not because my bolt gun is ineffective. Nor is it because I have had the need for quick followup shots. I simply like the platform and hope to do my part to make it mainstream to use an AR for hunting.

I would suggest his experience with a 280 rem mag is purely anecdotal. Deer have been known to either drop right there or run off with heart and lungs turned to mush from a well placed shot from any of the popular calibers. From the internal damage I have seen, this would probably still be the case had they been shot with a 50 BMG.


Also, my bolt gun has a detachable box magazine and it is just as easy, if not easier to unload than my AR's for a fence crossing. Also, the possibility of scratching the rounds up or causing bullet setback is much less when the round is not violently slammed into the chamber.

I don't feel like going into his post any more to dissect what some may see as potential misinformation, but I hope you get the point.

I love all rifles, and they all have a place!

bearman49709
January 13, 2014, 04:59 PM
Tirod that is the DUMBEST post I have ever read, I sugest you stop playing video games and start living in the real world.

mljdeckard
January 13, 2014, 05:37 PM
Tirod only said one thing I disagree with. Most of the bolt gun hunters I know are confident, one-shot marksmen. Certainly more so than I. Tirod is not a poser.

That doesn't mean there is any reason not to hunt with an AR. I am making the leap to an AR-10, but there are certainly cartridges that will take down large game within ethical hunting ranges that will run in an AR -15. Most people find ARs easy to run and light to carry.

The other factor, which I feel to be relevant, and something we should all consider, is the phrase; "in common use". In the current PR fight, I don't know that we are winning. The general public still believes that you can't or shouldn't use an AR to hunt, and this drives a lot of the sentiment behind gun bans. It is up to US to change this perception and reality. I would encourage every hunter who is even SOMEWHAT inclined to use one for hunting to get one. It's doesn't mean you have to divorce your bolt guns. Indeed, everyone SHOULD learn how to run a bolt gun. But every opportunity we neglect to point out that AR pattern rifles are legitimate sporting arms is making it easier for the other side.

TIMC
January 13, 2014, 06:36 PM
Here is my take on hunting with the AR rifle. I can load a 20 round mag, go out hunting for a week, shoot a couple of deer, bust 6-8 hogs a Javalina or two and maybe a coyote, a bobcat or two but never have to reload. Whats better than that? Oh and more than 99% of the time they are one shot kills.

I hunt in South Texas and that scenario happens more than you would think, especially with the pigs! Hunting with an AR-10 style rifle is the most all around gun you can have IMHO.

Dean1818
January 13, 2014, 07:19 PM
Here is my take on hunting with the AR rifle. I can load a 20 round mag, go out hunting for a week, shoot a couple of deer, bust 6-8 hogs a Javalina or two and maybe a coyote, a bobcat or two but never have to reload. Whats better than that? Oh and more than 99% of the time they are one shot kills.

I hunt in South Texas and that scenario happens more than you would think, especially with the pigs! Hunting with an AR-10 style rifle is the most all around gun you can have IMHO.
I have seen 15 pigs in the same group.

(Also a texan)


They USUALLY run...... If they dont... You will be happy you had a quick follow up shot

back40
January 13, 2014, 07:53 PM
Tirod that is the DUMBEST post I have ever read, I sugest you stop playing video games and start living in the real world.

gee, thanks for your wonderful contribution. :rolleyes:

for the op, as others have said, a .308 ar will do most of what a 30-06 will do. the ruger sr762 is high on my list, and would be a good place to start looking.

No4Mk1*
January 13, 2014, 08:12 PM
I am considering the M&P 10 as it is reasonably light weight for a 308 AR.
One thing I really like with AR hunting is that I can significantly shorten length of pull once in a deer stand if an awkward shooting angle is likely. As a right handed shooter shooting to the far right is much easier with the stock partially collapsed.

Sentryau2
January 13, 2014, 08:36 PM
7.62x40? Wilson tactical looks like it might offer better performance than the .300blk Not an expert, dont take it as absolute.

TIMC
January 13, 2014, 09:15 PM
Don't think the .300 BO was considered, the OP was talking about .308.

I personally don't care for the .300 BO, if I want a slow .308 I'll just down load my .308 to B/O velocities.

savanahsdad
January 14, 2014, 01:07 AM
not cheaper nor close to the same price ,, but , you can get WSSM's in an AR15, my AR15 in 25WSSM will shoot a 120gr SPBT at 2975 fps, just under what a 130gr 270win will do , and it will shoot light bullets like a 75gr V-max at 3725 fps so you will have a target , varmint and deer gun all in one

Tirod
January 14, 2014, 11:29 AM
I don't know where the .280 Rem came in, or does. I made a comment about the 8mm Remington Magnum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Remington_Magnum

It's based on the .375 H&H. Anybody want to claim that won't anchor a deer with one shot? I've seen it - thru the pelvis - and it immediately dropped. It did not kick or flail.

As for my comment on listening to other hunters, it may be different in your area, sure. But here, up until a few years ago, semi auto's weren't common, the average hunter used a bolt or lever gun. The shots come off with a bit of a delay, and the report is often distinctive to the cartridge fired, barrel length, and action.

It's no different than listening to various cars start, each has it's distinctive whine, guns have their distinctive report. When I first heard the concept I thought it was a bit much - veterans were coming back from Vietnam and they claimed to know the difference between an M16, AK-47, SKS, or M14. 22 years shooting free Army stuff and hunting with other partners, it's absolutely valid. You can tell a semi auto from a lever from a bolt. Just so happens most the guys I hunted with were qualified expert, as was I throughout my service.

When you arrive on opening day in 1979 using an HK91 with a first gen Aimpoint, your buddy has his 8mm Mag with 3x9 Widefield, the second a 8mm Mauser with matching Wehrmacht scope, the 3rd an SKS, it's not a bunch of Joe Sixpaks falling out of their camper and taking a leak in woods. :)

We knew what we were doing, in the day the statewide take was less than 50,000 head. Hunter success ration was one in ten, we were the ones.

I still hunt that same public land, there are a lot less hunters, they have a much better gear, and I haven't seen anyone wandering drunk in the woods in decades. I do see a lot more semi autos these days - usually SKS and "AK-47's" because they are cheap. The bolt gunners, however, still blast away, all five to seven round, in a measured manner indicating they have to cycle the action. The semi auto guys rarely go thru all ten rounds in their blocked hi cap magazines. But, when they do, it's obvious.

If that isn't in your experience, then consider that it's either limited by age or opportunity. It doesn't make mine invalid.

Being called out on it is sure normal, I'm use to the bolt gunners responding from a perspective that their manhood was challenged. So far, none of them have mentioned they served in Combat Arms, however. They just cast aspersions at my scurrilous stories.

There is a sea change in firearms going on right now. The Winchester 94 is now a collector piece, the new ones are high priced commemoratives. Pre 64 Win bolt guns are all in safes, rarely used. Rem 700s are nearing AR15 pricing. The SKS, AK-47, and AR15 are taking up a lot of rack space at the gun store, and bolt guns are now usually a composite stock with a matte finish. The era of the glossy white line spacer with checkering over highly polished blued steel is over and gone, along with a lot of the makers. Bolt guns are becoming collectibles among a declining population. Hunting isn't growing anymore, tags sales are continuing down, and the gun market's largest growing segment is the AR15.

They do a better job, I've tried them all, and the AR15 works best for me after 35 years.

fragout
January 14, 2014, 11:58 AM
My experience is very similar to what tirod has seen over the years, and especially in the Ozarks. (Both sides of the state line)
Parts of TX are very similar as well from my experience.

I'm not what one would call an AR fan, but the modularity and choices in cartridges does provide for a lot of versatility.

The SR762 I have is comparing well up against my M14S and M1A-A1 so far. Like any rifle, the little things concerning personal likes and dislikes come into play.

If it is legal in your state, the SR will make a decent host for a can with it's dual stage adjustable piston gas system.

The below TX brutes were all taken inside of a handful of seconds with the M14S...

fragout
January 14, 2014, 12:35 PM
Ooops. Wrong thread. (Deleted and moved to correct thread.)

fragout
January 14, 2014, 12:45 PM
Deleted and moved to correct thread.

mooner
January 14, 2014, 04:31 PM
Tirod,

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think semi auto rifles are great for hunting, as is the AR. I think the reason you are getting criticism is how what you are saying is coming across. You could say that some of your comments could be misconstrued as wild sweeping generalizations. Sometimes it is just how thing come across in the written word vs speaking.

From your earlier post, you make it sound like the reason the bolt action hunters were missing was because they were using inferior equipment. My somewhat tongue in cheek comments were there to indicate that where I hunt, the hunters shooting a lot were shooting semi autos. Obviously I don't think that either the bolt action hunters nor the semi auto hunters have to shoot more often because the equipment is faulty. I was simply pointing out that we can't draw conclusions from what we hear in the woods without really knowing facts. Furthermore, there are people who shoot a bolt gun quite fast, as well as those that shoot a semi auto with slow deliberate aim.

I understand that to some extent you can sometimes tell a little about what is being shot by cadence. Identifying cartridge is another matter with too many variables such as tree cover/distance/direction of shot/wind/etc. Identifying the difference between an AK, M16 and M14 is much different as we are talking about full auto weapons with different cyclic rates - much like the firing sequence of an automobile as you mention.

And actually I did specify 280 Rem Mag in my post (no editing I promise), although I still don't think it matters. A deer with a shattered pelvis and non working hindquarters will not run no matter what kind of gun hit him there. My 270 with a bonded bullet would do the same thing. I would wager that a 243 or 30-30 or 6.8 spc would as well. Were that 280 Rem Mag to hit the deer in the intestines...well your deer just ran off.

By the way, thanks for your service. I think in the end we probably agree more than disagree. Sometimes its just difficult to convey what we really mean.

bearman49709
January 14, 2014, 06:48 PM
Tirod I'm going to reply mainly to your post #32 paragraph by paragraph.

1] I don't know where the .280 Rem mag[never heard of that before] came from ether you said 8mm Rem mag.

2] I agree a 8mm mag or Mauser will kill a deer, you said in your first post that is the only bolt action cailiber that YOU have seen drop a deer with one shot. I have no idea how many deer you have seen shot with a bolt action but to imply no other caliber can do the same thing is hogwash. I killed three deer with a bolt action this year and two dropped and never took a step.

3] When I hunted MO in 1977 I saw a lot of semi auto's, Rem 740's,742's,even a few 8's or 81's not sure what model they were, Browning BAR's, Winchester100's along with many lever's and bolt's.
How can you tell if a .308 Win came from a bolt, lever or semi, or if it had a 20" or 22" barrel?

4] I agree on the M16 ect when more than one shot is fired, but when your in the jungle or wood's or swamp and all you hear is one shot it's much harder.
Yes I qualified expert with every weapon I shot for qual, but I was only in for 7 years.

5] Being a Joe six-pak shows your a working man, any thing wrong with that? The list of gun's you say you and your friends had says Joe six-pax to me.

6] No idea on that one so I'll give you a pass.

7] I've seen one SKS, zero AK's and zero AR's while out hunting, but if I do see one I won't think spray and pray like you think everyone not using a AR is doing. I have used Browning Bars, Remington 742's and 7400's, and Winchester 100's as well as lever action, bolt action, pump action and a T/C Encore for deer hunting and have never shot more than one shot to kill a deer and most people I know whatever they use are the same.

8] I don't know your age, but you talk about going deer hunting in 1979 if that was the first year you could hunt deer your younger than me. I've hunted since the 1960's in four states and have seen first hand that it isn't the type of gun it's the person useing it.

9] If being called out on it is normal maybe you should think about why. Sorry someone with your lack of experance in the real world is no threat to me. What in the world does combat arms have to do with this, I've meet some of the smartest and some of the dumbest people in combat arms! I do not judge someone on what they did in the milatary or if they were even in the milatary.

10] I agree things are changing and YOU may see more SKS's, AR's and AK's, but most people still see more bolt's, lever's, pump's, single shot's and Remington,Browning and Winchester semi auto's when hunting deer.

11] I've tried them all and the bolt action works best for ME after 50 years!

I do own a AR and have been thinking about useing it for deer this year, but I don't care what you use as long as your safe and leagle using it.

silicosys4
January 14, 2014, 07:11 PM
Tirod, I will say my experiences where I'm at are completely opposite from yours. We have a lot of scrub, and grown up clear cuts so the short ranges and disappearing/reappearing game are common here.
However, what you are describing with bolt guns emptying their magazines but semi auto guns being one shot one kill machines is contrary to both my experience and logic. Around here you rarely get more than one shot before the animal is gone, so I don't know how, if you have a similar area, you would be able to empty all four or five shots out of a bolt gun before the animal is gone...but anyways...

I have only ever seen bolt guns around here, with an occasional lever action, and the occasional BAR or 7400 type "hunting" auto loader. I have never seen any battle rifle used for large game hunting locally.

Yet despite all those bolt guns, I have never heard a string of shots more than 3 shots long, and that 3 shot string was from two different guns.

That would make me very nervous, and would make me want to leave, being in the same area around hunters that cant hit what they are shooting at with the first shot. It sounds like that is a big problem over there, which is dismaying considering that the shots are mostly being taken at close range....

So you seem to be describing a scenario in which you have elusive animals that disappear and reappear in heavy cover, yet stick around for a bolt gun hunter to empty his gun at, but are never hit despite the close range, and if they are, they ONLY drop dead for sure if an 8mm mag is used...?

Honestly, that sounds more like a great Internet post than reality.


Around Here you would NOT want to have to mention having to take more than two shots or brag about how quickly you can shoot again after missing, or people would make fun or even chastise you for taking the first shot when you shouldn't have, or weren't able to make.

No offense, but here you would be looked at as an inept hunter if your inspiration and emphasis in selecting a HUNTING RIFLE was on being able to quickly send another five poorly aimed shots downrange as quickly as possible after missing with your first...

instead of being focused on making a good stalk and clean, effective, humane first shot. We don't hunt pigs here though, one animal at a time.
If you are shooting one animal at a time thats not trying to kill you, I see no reason personally for a semi auto.
For pigs though, different story.

The "dead right there" 8mm mag argument is pointless. If you have only seen an 8mm mag drop a deer consistently, its because you have happened to see one guy who shoots that caliber stay lucky, especially if he is taking pelvis shots.
Every animal I have shot with my 30-06 but one has dropped in its tracks, including an elk. The one that didn't was my first deer and being as i gutted it with a "lucky" (for me, not her) bullet down the belly, a bigger caliber wouldn't have mattered. Watching her wrap her guts around a stump before tearing them out sure made up my mind about clean first shots though, and I made up my mind about humane kills.
I forget the thread here but it was about "knockdown" energy, and finally one of the mods had to step in with a gruesome story about a soldier wounded by multiple .50 bmg hits, who walked to the aid station, then survived. There is no magic bullet.

Edit: to the OP.... As others have said, the ar-15 looks on paper to me to be a marginal short range deer rifle in 5.56, a fine deer rifle for short to intermediate range with a lot of different calibers such as 6.5 grendel and 6.8 spc, but the only loads that are going to approach the energy of a 30-06 or .270 are going to be the big bore thumpers like the .458 socom or .50 Beowulf, and you have nowhere near the range.

mooner
January 14, 2014, 09:23 PM
Thank you Bearman and silicosys for the thoughtful replies. :D

TIMC
January 15, 2014, 09:53 AM
A lot of talk about firing multiple shots due to misses. 3-4 rapid shots where I hunt just means you got 3-4 pigs down! :D

That is my thoughts when I hear rapid fire in south Texas.

CMC
January 15, 2014, 10:37 AM
Another option is the 7.62 x 40 WT and it works out of an ar-15
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/762x40-project.asp

HOOfan_1
January 15, 2014, 11:43 AM
I see absolutely no reason someone shouldn't hunt with an AR...at the same time to say that it is a more effective killer is hogwash.

Where are follow up shots of the utmost importance? Hunting dangerous game. What will you see dangerous game hunters using 99.9% of the time? Double rifles and bolt actions.

Not to mention if you make your first shot count...the animal may run, but it won't run far. Hit it somewhere else and it is running off and your follow up shots certainly are not going to be nearly as good as your first shot.

GLShooter
January 15, 2014, 04:02 PM
The 300 OSSM from Olympic would fill the bill for a hard hitting 30 caliber on a standard AR lower. For wildcat AR'S one could look at the 30HRT. It will out run the Blackout handily.

Greg

TRX
January 15, 2014, 04:46 PM
>> ".30 caliber AR"

I'd take a long look at the .300 Whisper or .300 Blackout in one of the supersonic loadings.

Off-the-shelf ammunition is available from various fendors. There is a whole family of virtually-identical cartridges exemplified by the Whisper; since the Blackout has a SAAMI spec, I see it becoming the most popular variant soon, even though the Whisper has a larger following at the moment.

There's a vast amount of loading data for both the Whisper and Blackout versions, for both subsonic and supersonic ballistics, should you care to roll your own.

shootr
January 16, 2014, 08:39 PM
Well... The AR platform is proven accurate. The range of calibers available is wide. If ya think ya want to try an AR, lotsa good choices. Some say weight is a downside. I hunt with a BAR and it's heavy, but I don't notice it when I'm shooting.

If you get one, be sure to let us know how you like it.

gdcpony
January 17, 2014, 09:53 AM
There are several caliber choices that fit your requirements that fit the LR308/AR10 type. I am building one in .257Roberts this spring/summer. .260Rem also comes to mind. In .308 though it seems to meet what you are looking for.

Last season I used the base Oracle (DPMS) to take a deer at 400yds. Nice to have the extra shot available, but not needed that time.

I have had to take 2nd shots with different weapons. Some animals I have known were dead on their feet. Sometimes deer just stand bleeding out or bolt a short distance and look around. I have had this with; .223, .243, 7x57, .257Roberts, 20ga, and my bow too. It happens even on good shots. The deer just doesn't seem to know its death warrant has been signed.

In these situations, I am usually forced to move. My bow being the hardest, the 20ga also being a single shot requires slow, quiet movements. Only my .223 allowed me to simply squeeze again. The Oracle would have if needed too, but that deer was in the woodline (probably already down) before I recovered from recoil.

That is the advantage of an autoloading weapon. I like to use mine for varmints as they can be found in groups. Deer are just the added game. I generally kill most of my deer with the 20ga or bow which obviously require careful shots. Adding the rifles is a recent thing and the autoloaders are going to quickly become my favorite weapons among the bunch.

The downside for most is weight. My 16" barrel DPMS weighs more than my 26" old Mauser. I don't mind, but you might. Still handles fine to me.

Overall, I would look at a DPMS LR-308 for your purposes. Long post just to say that huh?

fragout
January 17, 2014, 11:27 AM
A lot of talk about firing multiple shots due to misses. 3-4 rapid shots where I hunt just means you got 3-4 pigs down!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly.

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 12:02 PM
And what pray tell is the advantage of a $2200 .308 AR vs my $250 bought used Rem 740 30-06?

gdcpony
January 17, 2014, 02:09 PM
And what pray tell is the advantage of a $2200 .308 AR vs my $250 bought used Rem 740 30-06?
Personal preference would be my guess. We all have our tastes and budgets.

I like semi's that I can get back on target fast. 2200 is about what I will have in my .257Roberts AR project.

By the same token I love my bolt guns too especially with laminated stocks. My daughter likes nothing but bolt guns with synthetic stocks. I saw the pic of an AR with a laminated stock and absolutely HATED it, but that is just me. To each their own.

Warp
January 17, 2014, 03:01 PM
And what pray tell is the advantage of a $2200 .308 AR vs my $250 bought used Rem 740 30-06?

Depends on what you want out of the gun.

Semi automatic is certainly a very significant difference.

So is being able to fire 7.62x51 ammunition.

Maybe, for you, the bolt action .30-06 is perfect.

But not everybody is you.

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 03:36 PM
Depends on what you want out of the gun.

Semi automatic is certainly a very significant difference.

So is being able to fire 7.62x51 ammunition.

Maybe, for you, the bolt action .30-06 is perfect.

But not everybody is you.

I just checked, my 740 Rem is still a semi, as is my 742.

Warp
January 17, 2014, 03:41 PM
Goes to show how well I know the Remington lineup.

Looking it up...there are significant differences between a modern AR platform rifle and a Remington 740. Surely you are aware of this. Apparently those differences aren't something you need, or want enough to pay a lot more money for.

That's fine.

I see the 740's came with a 4 round magazine. What other options are there and what is their pricing/availability like?

If a person were to want to customize their 740 for uses other than deer hunting (or even for deer hunting), what would be the easiest way to attach those accessories?

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 04:01 PM
When I bought my 740's- 742's in the early 90's 10 shot mags where a dime a dozen. Bought a few, rarely used them. I am sure there's still plenty around. Accessories? Pre drilled and tapped for the super light weight and reliable Weaver one piece mount. Rings available in any K-mart. All I needed. Hung a old steel tube Texas Weaver on it and proceeded to shoot 1-1 1/2 100 yard groups though them all day.

Warp
January 17, 2014, 04:05 PM
All I needed.

Not everybody is you.

Just because you personally don't need the additional options of a particular firearm that doesn't mean other people don't.

mavracer
January 17, 2014, 04:12 PM
I never had any luck getting a 10 round mag that would feed in dad's 760 I can't imagine them being more reliable in a auto.
I've also never seen a factory Remington 7xx or 7xxx series gun that would do an honest 5 shot 1" 100 yard group with any regularity but I've seen a few AR platforms that would do 1/2" groups on demand.

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 04:12 PM
What would a AR 10 provide me a Rem 740 cannot? That was my original question. This is hunting only, not some sort of military action.

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 04:21 PM
I never had any luck getting a 10 round mag that would feed in dad's 760 I can't imagine them being more reliable in a auto.
I've also never seen a factory Remington 7xx or 7xxx series gun that would do an honest 5 shot 1" 100 yard group with any regularity but I've seen a few AR platforms that would do 1/2" groups on demand. Last I shot my 742 it was putting some old Remington premium safari 180 A-square into 1-2 inchs. Hunting ammo, not target stuff. Still with the old fogy Weaver scope. Why would I need more then that from a 30-06?

Warp
January 17, 2014, 04:26 PM
I never had any luck getting a 10 round mag that would feed in dad's 760 I can't imagine them being more reliable in a auto.
I've also never seen a factory Remington 7xx or 7xxx series gun that would do an honest 5 shot 1" 100 yard group with any regularity but I've seen a few AR platforms that would do 1/2" groups on demand.

I have a SWAT magazine in front of me where they tested the Ruger SR762.

They tested a dozen different ammunition types for accuracy at 100 yards off a bipod. Six of those (5 shot groups) were sub 1". The best was 0.51", second best was 0.64". The worse was 2.51" from 1982 headstamped M80 149gr FMJ


What would a AR 10 provide me a Rem 740 cannot? That was my original question. This is hunting only, not some sort of military action.

I'm not sure why this thread has suddenly become about you and the fact that you like your current rifle and cannot fathom something else doing anything for you.

Maybe you should start a thread about it and discuss it there?

mavracer
January 17, 2014, 04:29 PM
Last I shot my 742 it was putting some old Remington premium safari 180 A-square into 1-2 inchs. Hunting ammo, not target stuff. Still with the old fogy Weaver scope. Why would I need more then that from a 30-06?
So now it's really only 2" for sure on demand on the range what does it do at 300 to 350 from a field position?
My brothers AR10 regularly does 2" at 300, more accuracy matters to some;)

Rem.222
January 17, 2014, 04:47 PM
Rem 742 is designed to shoot factory 150gr loads only and still it will chatter the action. I know of two that was returned to Rem. about 15 -18 yrs ago and that sent back to owners with a card saying they could not nor would not fix them. I sold mine when I saw this happen to them.

dprice3844444
January 17, 2014, 04:58 PM
http://nemoarms.com/guns/ 300 win mag
http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php 450 marlin upper

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 05:15 PM
Sorry I thought this was about hunting, not competitive shooting.

Warp
January 17, 2014, 05:20 PM
Sorry I thought this was about hunting, not competitive shooting.

Because accuracy is irrelevant to hunting, and more accuracy than the minimum is a bad thing

jim in Anchorage
January 17, 2014, 05:29 PM
Man oh man don't ever say anything about ARs here. It's like telling a woman she should wear black because it makes her look thinner. It's true, but DON'T say it.
Yes 1-2 MOA with 30-06 hunting ammo is plenty good for what I use a semi for.

bcb2
January 17, 2014, 07:35 PM
If cost is not a major factor you may want to consider the FN Scar 17 given the weight advantages among others vs. the AR10. It is a fantastic firearm.

Kayo
January 17, 2014, 09:34 PM
Consider an AR10 or AR10 T with a 16 inch barrel. The standard will be lighter, and you won't loose significant muzzle velocity with the 16inch barrel except past 500 yards. If you get the AR10 T carbine, it will be more accurate, but the stainless bull barrel will be heavier. Everything is a trade off. Add an adjustable stock, and you can collapse it or adjust it whichever way you want. They are incredible all purpose rifles.

TIMC
January 18, 2014, 12:47 PM
jim in Anchorage
And what pray tell is the advantage of a $2200 .308 AR vs my $250 bought used Rem 740 30-06


When it all comes down to it probably not a lot if your rifle is accurate and shoots well.

What it all comes down to is what you like. I have a about 5k in my .308 AR make it 6k with the suppressor. Did I need to spend that much and get a custom built AR? No but it was what I wanted, it is super accurate, well made and just plain old makes me happy.

Me on the other hand would only own a 740 if it was given to me and then it wouldn't stay long because I would sell it to buy reloading components for my AR. Not putting your rifle down but it is what you wanted and it sounds like you are happy with it and its just not me.

Some people drive Hyundai and some drive Cadillac, doesn't have to be a need.

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