The forgotton 32 auto


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dastardly-D
January 15, 2014, 04:17 PM
Friends, just why is it that a .380 seems to be all the rage while the 32acp is about forgotten ? There can't be much difference in power and I believe that the 32 actually penetrates a little better ? With some of the new bullet designs being what they are, why not utilize that small 32 acp you have tucked away ? Just asking ?

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SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 04:55 PM
I don't know! http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05339.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/matquig/media/DSC05339.jpg.html)

Potatohead
January 15, 2014, 04:57 PM
I'd like to have one myself.

Also i'd like to see some ballistics tests.

horsemen61
January 15, 2014, 05:07 PM
I am a fan and sharps you got any more pics of that colt :confused: I'm guessing

MagnumDweeb
January 15, 2014, 05:11 PM
Welcome to the age of the pocket pistol. Where it's about getting the biggest bullet into the smallest gun possbile thus the Glock 26 and 27, the XDS in 9mm and .45 and so on.

The .32 got left by the wayside it seems when the 9mm became the de facto caliber of the masses and from then on as the CCW trend picked up speed, it was bout getting that round of the masses into the smallest gun possible that the public would buy. Between the 9mm experiencing greater success and cheaper pricing than the .32 and the CCW trend. The .32 caliber was an easy one to toss aside.

If you've never held or shot a Colt 1903, it's hard to appreciate the round's simplicity and ease of shooting. It's soft and easy for followup shots like you wouldn't believe. My one day but not soon guns will be a Walther PP in .32 if I can find one for a deal (or the NRA Instructor Discount), or I start making over a 100k a year. I've shot the Walther PP and and with the .32 it is like you cant miss almost and the PP is made with modern drop safe protections. The Colt 1903 doesn't look like it will be given new life even though it is awesome and the old ones are getting harder and harder to restore. So the 1903 is a fun collector gun but it's only a workhorse for a few folks.

I would have like to have seen a CZ 82 in .32 ACP but it didn't happen. I think a good way to resurrect the .32 caliber in the modern market would be to lengthen the cartridge and up the power a bit. Not to 7.62 Tokarev levels but get a 86 grain JHP going 1100 fps and you'll start to turn some heads.

Especially if you build the gun as a concealed carry gun with a ten round capacity. You could keep it the size of a Glock 26, thinned down a little. Or better yet the size of a Glock 42.

It's never going to happen as it would require a complete reinvention of the caliber in an age where investment in new calibers doesn't achieve a lot of success unless like the .300 Whisper you can easily make it from a preexisting and largely produced cartridge and even then there is no guarantee. But ammo and guns in 9mm, there is a lot of promise for success so only a gambler of a businessman would invest in the new caliber in the hopes of it taking off when it can't really be marketed to Law Enforcement or the Military, and would only be enjoyed by a small portion of the shooting public.

Old Fuff
January 15, 2014, 05:21 PM
More recent market studies have shown more interest in the .380 then the .32, I presume because potential buyers are repeatedly told that "bigger is better."

For some that's true, but for others it isn't. When individuals with no experience go to a retailer, gun show, etc. they seldom get a chance to try out various handguns, and tend to get whatever is recommended. If it's a very small, lightweight, straight-blowback .380 pistol they may quickly have second thoughts after actually firing what they purchased.

I personally think that a mid-sized .32 (think of the Colt model 1903) was introduced it might eventually become a good seller, but it's unlikely that any of the larger manufacturers will try it. As it is they can sell all of the .380's they can make.

David E
January 15, 2014, 05:26 PM
I was struck with the idea of a pocket size gun, like the LCP, but in a double stack 12-shot .32 variation.

I think that would sell.

RX-79G
January 15, 2014, 05:32 PM
Most older .32s are as large as .380s, which are perceived to be more effective.

Many of the old .32s are single action with very primitive safety systems.

zoom6zoom
January 15, 2014, 05:33 PM
I think some of the import restrictions affected them as well, due to size.

JERRY
January 15, 2014, 05:49 PM
the .32acp hasn't been forgotten, its just the latest hype is for the .380acp in the same sized guns..... in time some will revert back to the .32acp when they discover the .380acp bites a bit more on the shooter's hand....

larryh1108
January 15, 2014, 06:17 PM
I was struck with the idea of a pocket size gun, like the LCP, but in a double stack 12-shot .32 variation.

I think that would sell.

I own a LCP and love it. I would buy it in .32ACP even if it was single stack but a double stack version would be great too.

mdauben
January 15, 2014, 06:23 PM
Friends, just why is it that a .380 seems to be all the rage while the 32acp is about forgotten ?
Most people who know a bit about handguns for self defence consider the .380 marginal so anything smaller is even more suspect.

There can't be much difference in power and I believe that the 32 actually penetrates a little better ?
The problem with the .380 is that it underpenetrates with JHP and overpenetrates with FMJ. (If you follow the FBI gel test protocols). I would find it hard to believe that a .32 JHP would pentrate any better, and extra penetration with FMJ is undesirable.

With some of the new bullet designs being what they are, why not utilize that small 32 acp you have tucked away ? Just asking ?
As I said, even with the best modern bullets the .380 is a marginal performer. Certainly the .32 would be better than nothing, but its at best a third tier choice for self defence.

Welcome to the age of the pocket pistol. Where it's about getting the biggest bullet into the smallest gun possbile thus the Glock 26 and 27...
While it is a small 9mm, here's not many people who would consider the Glock 26 to be a pocket gun. IF you are talking pocket 9mm you should look at the Ruger LC9, the Kahr PM9/CM9, Beretta Nano, etc.

Old Fuff
January 15, 2014, 06:32 PM
Spoken like a true member of an Internet firearms forum...

But you'll find that Mr. and Mrs. Average Inexperienced Buyer don't always think the same way. As has been pointed out in several other threads, when they get a chance to fire a Colt 1903 Pocket Model they often fall in love.

A solid hit with a .32 will beat a recoil-induced miss any day of the week.

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 06:46 PM
I one time had a pair, but had a deal I couldn't refuse on another gun, and swapped the top one. It was the nicer of the two, and since I really DO carry the lower one, I didn't have a reason to keep the nice one and make it "less nice" by wearing and sweating on it. There is just something about my little .32 that makes it dear to my heart. Not a boomer, but it feeds everything, and can do some fine shooting, even at 25 yards, if I squint over the tiny sights properly. ............ http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05372.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/matquig/media/DSC05372.jpg.html)

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 07:13 PM
One big point for the novice, non-loader, or prospective gun buyer to consider is that, currently, .32ACP ammo is a bit overpriced and sometimes harder to find (excluding current shortages), as the .380 has become more common. Handloading is tougher, too, as .32 bullets are harder to find.

Old Fuff
January 15, 2014, 07:15 PM
If you consider your remaining Pocket Model to be a shooter, you might be interested to know that the little .32/380 had the same rear dovetail and front sight slot, that was used in the Government Model .45 - At the time the Pocket Pistol was made. This opens some interesting (and inexpensive) solution to the "little sights" issues. ;)

cocojo
January 15, 2014, 07:48 PM
The 32 is not forgotten. I carry a Beretta Tomcat all the time. I own two tomcat's and a walther ppk in 32 also. I like the 32, and I much prefer the kel tec 32 over their 380. I don't believe that the 32 penetrates better than the 380 ball for ball. The 32 actually penetrated about 14 to 15 inches which really is ideal. The 380 ball will go 23 inches which is too much for my liking. The 32 has a tendency to tumble when shot into ballistic gell.

torqem
January 15, 2014, 07:54 PM
the better off everyone will be. The 380 is plenty feeble enough, and is available in guns so small and lw that they can be worn like a necklace pendant, or in a wrist holster, or under long hair, at the back of the neck. Why would you want even less power than the pathetic 380, and less ability to be controlled in rapidfire?

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 08:56 PM
I actually like the challenge of the little sights, but have to admit the ones that I have seen modified with REAL sights, nice, square, highly visible, are really the ticket for self defense, but change the classic look a little too much for the purist. Ever see the ones Novak's have worked on, installing their sights? ...... http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8619148/pistols-for-sale/colt-1903-pocket-hammerless-.32-auto.novak-custom-beautiful-work-must-see

LightningMan
January 15, 2014, 09:16 PM
I thought I read there is a small possability of rim-lock with the .32 acp, because it has a small bit of a rim and if you don't properly allign them in the magazine when loading it, it could cause failures to feed. LM

BSA1
January 15, 2014, 09:31 PM
Right front pant pocket Seacamp 32.

Everyplace else on the body is 9x18 or larger.

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 09:40 PM
I think poor magazine design and angle COULD create rimlock in some guns, but it is more myth than substance. I have never experienced it in my Colt, Walther PPK, or Beretta 70, all .32 cal.

351 WINCHESTER
January 15, 2014, 09:42 PM
I can assure you that rim lock is no myth. I have had rim lock twice in a kel tec with strong mag. springs. I've never tried hp in my other .32's so I can't comment, but I think it's possible with any .32 with a shorter bullet.

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 09:56 PM
Perhaps the Kel-Tec has a poorly DESIGNED mag, and it will never be right. Wrong angle, and too much slop inside the mag will let the rims cross over. Not all guns are the same.

351 WINCHESTER
January 15, 2014, 10:06 PM
FYI Kel Tec uses Mec-Gar magazines which are some of the best made magazines there are. Better than Walther or Colt. Browning still uses them for their high power pistols. I have had rim lock happen in a spare mag. that I was carrying in my pocket.

I can assure you that all of the older guns were designed for fmj rounds before h/p were ever conceived so that puts them behind the curve already. I would not trust any pistol with short h/p in the mag.

Perhaps you will experience rim lock one day and hopefully it will happen when you don't need that second follow up shot like me.

SharpsDressedMan
January 15, 2014, 10:18 PM
Perhaps. But still, isn't it possible that Meg-gar made the mags to Kel-Tec's specs, and the design is just on the fringe of good? You have only had one mag that acts up? It may just be a glitch in one mag. I've had the same issue with a .22 mag for my Beretta 21A. With a good mag, that gun runs flawless.

Jim K
January 15, 2014, 10:35 PM
Zoom6zoom has at least part of the reason. When the import guidelines were being developed, more import points were given to .380 pistols than to otherwise identical .32's. That effectively froze .32's out of the import market and, since none were made in the U.S., the average buyer had no source of new pistols in .32 ACP. That, combined with a general (and widely promoted) idea that .32ACP was a useless cartridge, incapable of penetrating anything thicker than a sheet of bond paper, led most gun gurus to sneer at the .32 and decree that anything less than .380 was beneath notice. That attitude still prevails today, and more so, with some folks embracing the idea that nothing less than .454 Casull can possibly do any harm to a mouse, let alone a human.

Jim

351 WINCHESTER
January 15, 2014, 10:49 PM
Kel Tec sells a spacer to prevent rim lock with hollow point or shorter oal bullets. I experienced rim lock with the spacer.

Anything is possible. I have been carrying a .32 k/t for over 10 years which may account for several rim lock problems. When rim lock happens one must take the magazine apart so in effect it makes the pistol a single shot.

I suppose anything is possible with kel tec. Since I don't carry another .32 I cannot comment other than saying that the design of the magazine has little to do with the problem. The problem lies with the design of the .32acp being a semi rimless ctg.

orionengnr
January 15, 2014, 10:53 PM
There can't be much difference in power...
Shoot a P32 and a P3AT back to back.
Then re-familiarize yourself with Newton's Third...and get back to me.

Shooting those two back to back was all it took for me to get rid of the P32, and I'll never want another.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 15, 2014, 10:54 PM
I'm a .32 acp aficionado and champion...it has been left aside while the .380 is moving to the top of the "novice carry pistol" pile. I have tested a lot of factory .32 for penetration out of my Colt's and other pistols and can find no reason this caliber should be sniffed at. A modern, locked breech, pocket sized pistol with a 3 1/2" - 4" barrel would make much better use of the limited power of the .32 acp than the current crop of "toy" pistols.

That said, I'm hot as can be for a Beretta Pico *because* it has a .32 acp option on the table. If we could get a polymer framed, locked breech .32 with a 4" barrel and some modern hot/high performance ammo I think people might be more impressed.

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p709/VodoundaVinci/PointShooting_zps65bfc96e.jpg

As already said by others, the .32 gives a better account of itself than the press it gets about the Internet discussion forums where there are a lot of detractors but not many who have a lot of experience with shooting, testing, reloading, and developing the .32 acp. I have my own hand loads using Rim Rock .312 flat nose hard cast lead 75 gr. bullets (the same bullet Buffalo Bore is running) and have them running 1050+ fps and yielding 200 fpe. 17' of penetration. They have recoil beginning to rival a hot .380 load but seem to flip a lot less in a Colt 1903 making triple and quadruple taps at 21' a snap.

With 17" of penetration and 200 fpe these rounds would give about as good an account of themselves as a .38 special out of a 2" barrel with a fraction of the recoil and very quick follow ups. I'm not holding my breath for new .32 pistols but I *will* buy them if they come available. I personally think the .32 as a self defense round is more than adequate if the gunner does his job. They are not block busters but they don't beat on the shooter either.

VooDoo

Vodoun da Vinci
January 15, 2014, 11:06 PM
I suppose anything is possible with kel tec. Since I don't carry another .32 I cannot comment other than saying that the design of the magazine has little to do with the problem. The problem lies with the design of the .32acp being a semi rimless ctg.

I shoot .32 with Range Buddies and we have Walthers and Kel Tecs and Berettas and Colts and Brownings all in .32 shooting the same ammunition. The only ones that have ever rim locked were the Kel Tecs.

Not saying it *can't* happen with other pistols, just that it never has with thousands of rounds between the various guns and testers. There is more to rim lock than the cartridge itself....magazine wiggle room? Grip angle? I dunno...

But I have two Colt 1903's in .32 with thousands of rounds of factory and handloads thru them with every bullet type you can think of and only a handfull of problems. FTF with some Winchester flat noses but never one single rim lock.

VooDoo

rondog
January 15, 2014, 11:33 PM
I carry my 1914 Mauser .32 Pocket Pistol a LOT more than my Bersa Thunder .380.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20handguns/DSCN3900.jpg

Gun Master
January 15, 2014, 11:35 PM
I one time had a pair, but had a deal I couldn't refuse on another gun, and swapped the top one. It was the nicer of the two, and since I really DO carry the lower one, I didn't have a reason to keep the nice one and make it "less nice" by wearing and sweating on it. There is just something about my little .32 that makes it dear to my heart. Not a boomer, but it feeds everything, and can do some fine shooting, even at 25 yards, if I squint over the tiny sights properly. ............ http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05372.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/matquig/media/DSC05372.jpg.html)
Looks like my Colt 1908 .380 ACP.

barnbwt
January 16, 2014, 01:19 AM
All I know is my VZ61 Skorpion is fun as all get out, even when limited to semi auto. And the energy with which it ejects cases will convince anyone it's not a round to be taken lightly (even if its recoil is) at short range.

TCB

usp9
January 16, 2014, 08:47 AM
The forgotton 32 auto

Far from forgotten. People that pocket carry know that the .32 is the easiest to carry because the guns are so small and light. I'd wager a pretty respectable percentage of folks that actually carry a gun have a .32 in their armory. Keltec owes it's existence to the .32.

I think a good way to resurrect the .32 caliber in the modern market would be to lengthen the cartridge and up the power a bit. Not to 7.62 Tokarev levels but get a 86 grain JHP going 1100 fps and you'll start to turn some heads.

That was done and failed in the form of the NAA32, which was chambered in the heavy but small Guardian. Faded to oblivion.

There is more to rim lock than the cartridge itself....magazine wiggle room? Grip angle? I dunno...

Some designs allowed rimlock, mostly a fault in the magazine. The Keltec and CZ83 were notorious for this until their magazines were redesigned.

USAF_Vet
January 16, 2014, 09:04 AM
Two guns on my bucket list are .32 ACP. The VZ-61 Skorpion and a pocket pistol, though I'm not sure if I want the Kel Tec, Beretta, or NAA.

el Godfather
January 16, 2014, 09:42 AM
Not forgotten at all. Just had a few threads with lots of heat on 32!

PRM
January 16, 2014, 10:56 AM
Friends, just why is it that a .380 seems to be all the rage while the 32acp is about forgotten ?

The .32 ACP is forgotten - I missed that memo.

JERRY
January 16, 2014, 11:00 AM
you want the smallest (and best made) mini .32? get the LWS.

here are two of the with the LWS380 as well. you will notice a big difference shooting the two. my LWS380 now has a mag plate ext. like my wife's LWS32.

which do I carry, the .380. which do I shoot more, the .32.

penetration is about the same as far as back yard water jug type testing goes. the hollow point .32 doesn't expand from these shot tubes and penetrates like flat nose fmj.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff256/JerryS357/100_9298_zpsc397115a.jpg (http://s242.photobucket.com/user/JerryS357/media/100_9298_zpsc397115a.jpg.html)

Vodoun da Vinci
January 16, 2014, 11:37 AM
Jerry, are your Seecamps finicky about ammunition? I have only shot one and had limited experience to test ammunition but it seemed rather finicky preferring Gold Dots and Silver Tips to the exclusion of all other ammo.The reliability with the Silver Tips was not all that good with 10% of the rounds causing FTF.

Flat nose stuff like Winchester and even Fiocchi hardball were dismal but that was only one pistol on one day and I'd hate to draw conclusions on that basis.

Built like a Swiss watch though. Very nice little bitty gun in .32.

VooDoo

JERRY
January 16, 2014, 12:06 PM
Vodoun, none of them have ever even stumbled. the LWS32 is round sensitive as in OAL. the only .32s ive ever put through them are the 60gr. STHP, 65gr. Hydra-Shoks, 60gr. Gold Dots, and the 71gr. WWB flat nose.

LWS recommends the new style STHP almost exclusively for the .32 as it was built around that round, though the three hollow points ive used have worked flawlessly. my LWS380 has only had the 90gr. Hydra-Shoks so far. if I had problems with them I wouldn't have sunk more money in a second one and then a near mint in to the third.

p.s. If you ever get a LWS and have difficulties, you will be able to speak directly with the owner, and he will make it right. who else can say that?

usp9
January 16, 2014, 12:24 PM
Vodoun da Vinci, my Seecamp will turn 27 years old this year. During that time I've put every brand of ammo I could find through it. Provided it fit into the magazine, the pistol has always worked. Those brands I can recall are Win. ST, Gold Dot, Fiocchi, Cor Bon, Hydra Shok and Hornady. The ammo has to fit the mag which was designed for shorter hollow point ammo. That's the only restriction I've encountered.

weblance
January 16, 2014, 12:46 PM
.32acp forgotten? Yeah... sometimes I forget my P32 is in my pocket.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 16, 2014, 01:14 PM
Awesome information on the Seecamps...I have always heard they were the "Cadillac" of the tiny .32s and now I believe it. Must have been a magazine issue, lube issue, or unknown for my only Seecamp experience. I'm having an intense desire for a pocket .32 to replace/limit my Colt carry and it's down to a Beretta Pico (when/if they get here and still have the .32 option) a Tomcat or a Seecamp if that dun't happen.

I wish someone would make a polymer framed .32 with a 3 1/2"+ barrel perhaps the size of a Colt 1903 but it's not gonna happen. I imagine a polymer Colt Mustang chambered for .32 acp.

We can dream I guess...

VooDoo

bannockburn
January 16, 2014, 01:35 PM
Had a Walther PP (police trade-in), and a Manurhin PP in .32 ACP a number of years ago. Both were easy to use and capable of some very good accuracy. Another sweet shooting .32 ACP was the Beretta Model 90 Roma.

Stevie-Ray
January 16, 2014, 02:15 PM
I carry one each and every day as BUG-a KT P32. Also have a 1903 Colt for fun and as a fond memory of my Dad.

Old Fuff
January 16, 2014, 02:30 PM
We can dream I guess...

Yes, but prior to 1968 when the GI's came home from Europe they brought tons of .32 (7.62mm) pistols with them. Then after the European countries had revovered they exported even more .32 pistols to the U.S. of A.

Add to this the pocket automatics made between 1900 and 1940 by domestic manufacturers such as Colt (of course) Savage, Remington, H&R and others.

Probably the big issue with most of them is finding quality magazines. Next might be repair parts if needed. But as the WW-2 vets pass away, I find estate auctions on the 'net that have some interesting offerings. It's not unusual to find the gun in its original holster with a spare magazine.

krupparms
January 16, 2014, 03:16 PM
I carry a Tomcat .32acp. & find it to be a fine gun for that use. I also got my dads 1903 Colt &picked up another for parts, even though it works fine. I also picked up extra magazines in good shape for the 1903 pistols also. I find them to be accurate & reliable! Low recoil & accuracy are important as I get older. The .32 acp works well & is reliable in all the guns I have shot including the Kel-Tec P-32. It was very popular thru -out the early 1900s. But that was probably due to the depression &WW1 &WW2 . I believe it can make a comeback as more people find out how well it works!

Eb1
January 16, 2014, 04:15 PM
Haven't any experience with the .32 acp, but the .32 H&R Mag from a J-Frame is a nice SD round. My penetration experience is with a 100 grain XTP on a buck in rut neck at 10 feet. Went in broke two vertebrae and stuck in the skin on opposite side. Penetration including bone was between nine and ten inches.

Not bad and the bullet expanded, and stayed together. Velocity was 1070 fps.

alex4922
January 16, 2014, 04:45 PM
For fans of the 1903 Colt in .32 I know of one "goblin" (Jeff Cooper's term) who no longer walks this earth. One shot from my friend's '03 with a fmj
vapor locked his fuel pump. He was in the process of beating a woman half to death and when my friend intervened he unwisely pulled a gun. To take the high road, I'm sorry a person died. To be honest though I'm proud to say I traded that pistol to my friend and it may have saved two lives.

astra600
January 16, 2014, 05:06 PM
The main problem I have with Europes police standard caliber (for about a century) is the slides are so hard for me to pull back, even with 100 year old recoil springs. I like the caliber, and looking at my Savage 1907 on .32 ASP - Savage wasn't going to call it the .32 ACP - it is the size of Rugers LCP 9mm. Of course it is all steel, even the grips. Still works fine. Mag holds 10 rounds. MY KT P32 is tough to cycle, too. I think European cops wanted to make sure you got to court, ergo the popularity of the 32.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 16, 2014, 05:07 PM
Wow, Eb1...what was the bullet weight on that .32, do you know?

This is Mama's Colt '03 .32...

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p709/VodoundaVinci/ColtModelMTypeIV_zps264bb0a8.jpg

Built in 1930 I'd bet it hadn't had more than a few rounds put thru it in it's life time...mostly laid in someone's dresser drawer is my guess. My Wife loves it and although I wish she could handle something a bit stiffer and more powerful she can triple tap with this in less than a second and at 21' I can cover the group with one hand. No .45 acp "knockdown power" but I feel confident that she can defend herself with this pistol.

She keeps it loaded with my hand loads and 3 of those to the chest will work. 4 to 8 of them for good measure delivered as needed...the cool thing about the gun and the round/caliber is that she is confident she can hit with it and hit where she wants the bullets to go. That's as good as we can make it.

We'll end up with at least one more Model M. I want to find one that is mechanically perfect/sound that the finish has been trashed and do it up in Cerakote with better, bigger sights. Just because.

VooDoo

torqem
January 16, 2014, 05:11 PM
O KAY. :-) 357's and far more powerful rds to the chest have failed ( quite a bit, actually) but you are "confident" that 3 rds of .32 to the chest will suffice. What makes you so sure that she will do better than one rd to the gut? Most people, when under actual lethal attack, miss the entire man, repeatedly, at 10 ft or less. The .32 pistol has less power than a .22 rifle, if that rifle is using one of the hypervelocity loads (ie, 160 ft lbs). That's nothing to be sanquine about, I assure you.

wally
January 16, 2014, 08:00 PM
its just the latest hype is for the .380acp in the same sized guns..... in time some will revert back to the .32acp when they discover the .380acp bites a bit more on the shooter's hand.... Or not, once they consider that in the same size pistol it will bite the target about 50% harder.

Love these old relics but definitely last resort for me to actually use.

ViniferaVizslas
January 16, 2014, 08:31 PM
I have a cz50 in .32- heavy gun with no real recoil. Not reliable eough and to heavy for carry.

Also a Beretta Tomcat which I do carry. It is the best for pocket carry in the summer shorts weather. In the larger small guns like a sig 230, ppk or FN/Browning 1910 there is no reason to even consider the .32 vs the .380.

torqem
January 16, 2014, 08:39 PM
today, we have 9mm's that are smaller and lighter than the old colt .32. So why would you settle for 100 ft lbs of power, when you can have 400 ft lbs of power? A pocket 9mm is plenty feeble enough. You can always get wussier reloads, for practice or even for ccw.

Gun Master
January 16, 2014, 09:02 PM
I really like the Model M design. The 1903 Model (.32 ACP) had 554,446 manufactured, and provided a goodly supply to choose from.

On the other hand, the 1908 Model (.380 ACP) was more scarce, since only 134,499 were made.

I like the '03, but have never owned one. I do own an '08, since it is rarer, and I am one of the "die hards" that believe the .380 punches a bigger and more powerful hole than the .32 .

Either the '03 or '08 can convert to the "other" caliber, by switching barrels and mags.

C'est la Guerre ! C'est la Vie ! "Man, they're really sailin' " !!!!:D

Vodoun da Vinci
January 16, 2014, 10:21 PM
I'm assuming that most students and aficionados of the .32 acp have at least seen if not studied Brassfetchers data. I relied heavily on this information when developing and testing my own .32 acp loads...mostly trying to disprove some/most of this information.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Introduction%20to%20.32ACP%20Terminal%20Performance%2006MAY11.pdf

Actually I succeeded in confirming a lot of this data and consider it to be one of the more authoritative collections of data on a limited number of modern .32 acp ammunition. Worth a read or a skim concerning the degree of superiority of the .380 over the .32 acp. Interesting even if you reject the validity of the information and performance in this report.

VooDoo

heeler
January 16, 2014, 11:14 PM
I don't feel under powered when I occasionally carry my Kel-Tec P 32.
However I do carry my LCP far more.
All that being said I can consistently shoot the P32 more accurately than the harder recoiling .380 LCP.
My P32 is a joy to shoot.
It would be nice to have a larger .32 ACP pistol with decent sights to plink with.

Gun Master
January 17, 2014, 12:04 AM
I don't feel under powered when I occasionally carry my Kel-Tec P 32.
However I do carry my LCP far more.
All that being said I can consistently shoot the P32 more accurately than the harder recoiling .380 LCP.
My P32 is a joy to shoot.
It would be nice to have a larger .32 ACP pistol with decent sights to plink with.
Ever thought about getting the Kel-Tec P32 10 rd. mag ? It gives a lot better grip, and control, and feels like a larger gun.:cool: You wouldn't believe the improved difference it makes.:)

Ignition Override
January 17, 2014, 01:54 AM
How can one's first handgun bought last December be forgotten? It's kind of cool to have one of the types -"serial# 3rd mil. variation"- which were issued to German Fallschirmjager (paratroopers).
Mine was liberated from a German/Austrian nurse or medic.

If you know the shape of the Sig 230/232, you know the general looks of the WW2 Sauer 38H. They were only mfg. from '38-'45 then never mfg. again. Even the Walther PPK which Sauer copied had No decocker.

The German .32 acp ammo used then was reportedly stronger than our modern ammo.
It's too bad that our ammo prices are so much higher than what 9mm Luger costs.

Jim K: Those are excellent points, and not many of the larger types are easily carried in a windbreaker pocket during a jog. Probably left in the car, or at home.

Sergei Mosin
January 17, 2014, 02:06 AM
I'd like to add an old Colt 1903 or an FN Model 1910 to the collection, but I'm not much on it as a defensive cartridge.

Rexster
January 17, 2014, 03:53 AM
Another Seecamp owner here; I have not forgotten the .32 ACP.

snooperman
January 17, 2014, 09:07 AM
I have several 32 revolvers and one 32 pistol that I enjoy shooting. My little Seecamp is a real Jewel. As to its power, one has to remember that one Gavrilo Princip a Serb, killed Arch duke Ferdinand and his wife at 10:30AM and both died. He was shot once in the neck and slumped over and died quickly, she was shot in the abdomen and died a few minutes later. Two shots and 2 killed at 9 feet distance. Shot placement is more important in pistols than the caliber.

Gun Master
January 17, 2014, 02:55 PM
How can one's first handgun bought last December be forgotten? It's kind of cool to have one of the types -"serial# 3rd mil. variation"- which were issued to German Fallschirmjager (paratroopers).
Mine was liberated from a German/Austrian nurse or medic.

If you know the shape of the Sig 230/232, you know the general looks of the WW2 Sauer 38H. They were only mfg. from '38-'45 then never mfg. again. Even the Walther PPK which Sauer copied had No decocker.

The German .32 acp ammo used then was reportedly stronger than our modern ammo.
It's too bad that our ammo prices are so much higher than what 9mm Luger costs.

Jim K: Those are excellent points, and not many of the larger types are easily carried in a windbreaker pocket during a jog. Probably left in the car, or at home.
Yes, I like this one too.:cool: Very unique! Also liked the Mauser HsC in .32 or .380.:D Too high for my budget now. I spend all my extras on : food, clothing,and shelter!:(

Vodoun da Vinci
January 17, 2014, 10:46 PM
I just wanted to add this to the mix about the .32 acp. It seems to be common Internet Fact that the .380 acp is the absolute minimum caliber for self defense and that the .32 is largely useless comparatively...hence we have forgotten the .32 while the .380 and tiny pistols that are chambered for it are selling briskly while little or no new .32 pistols are being developed.

This from the .pdf on Terminal Performance of the .32 acp by Brassfetcher:

"At its greatest difference, the .380ACP Hydra-Shok transfers 23 ft-lbf and the .32ACP XTP transfers 6 ft-lbf. For a sense of what the difference between the two extremes, 17 ft-lbf, is equivalent to, consider that a typical 40gr lead round nose .22LR leaves the muzzle of a rifle with a kinetic energy of 100 ft-lbf.

In other words, the maximum difference in kinetic energy transfer (to the vital tissues) between a typical .32ACP and .380ACP JHP is 17% that of a mild .22LR load. As tested, we see no significant difference in lethality between the .32ACP and .380ACP cartridges (fired from a 2.7” barrel)"

The difference in the .32 ACP and the .380 is insignificant in terms of lethality and use as a SD round. For me, I prefer to carry the .32 ACP as a back up or when I cannot have a larger pistol due to this information and also due to the fact that a similar sized .32 yields faster/more accurate follow ups than a comparable pistol in .380.

VooDoo

Sour Kraut
January 18, 2014, 03:30 AM
My Manurhin 32 PP police trade in and Walther PPK 32s are fun and pleasant to shoot. I have not used either for EDC or as a BUG, but I feel comfortable in being able to put rounds on target shoud the need arise. For now, they are fun range guns....

snooperman
January 18, 2014, 08:38 AM
Vodoun da Vinci, Thank you for the good info from Brassfetcher. This is the " Stuff" that interests me the most with science research data too back it up. Snoop

snooperman
January 18, 2014, 08:58 AM
Even though I like my little Seecamp 32, I too would like a 3.5" barrel polymer frame 32 pistol , with a locked breach.

PRM
January 18, 2014, 09:43 AM
It seems to be common Internet Fact that the .380 acp is the absolute minimum caliber for self defense and that the .32 is largely useless comparatively

Internet says it all. You get armchair based post(s) done with anonymity by folks with little or no real world experience to back it up. They are fairly easy to pick up on, especially when their statement of last resort is to quote the "opinion" of some writer or similar source. Which in itself is just someone else's opinion. A lot of the experts have never had their personal qualifications examined beyond their ability to make a living jockeying a keyboard.

Bigger, more powerful is a no brainer... A .12 gauge slug definitely has more thump than a .25. But the bottom line is that the full range of calibers can be effective with proper shot placement. No caliber is a guaranteed one shot stopper - especially handgun cartridges. The .32 has been around since 1899 and has seen a wide range of service. There are better choices today - but if it were not effective, it wouldn't have lasted for 115 years.

Gun Master
January 18, 2014, 07:44 PM
A person can choose his/her ammo ballistics, all sorts of ways. We all get to decide which is best for us. Isn't that great ?

I looked up some muzzle velocity & energy statistics in The Shooter's Bible - 102st Edition (2010), as follows :
.32 ACP highest vel. 1000 fps ; highest energy 133 ft. lbs. (60 grain bullet)
.380ACP highest vel.1200 fps ; highest energy 223 ft. lbs. (77 grain bullet)

There was also another alternative caliber (mm), 9x18mm Makarov:
highest vel. 1000 fps. ; highest energy 211 ft. lbs. (95 grain bullet)

Besides the above, there are all sorts of other combinations, depending mostly on manufacturer, grains & type of powder, weight & construction of bullets.

Things never get boring, considering the choices, and with all the possible decisions the shooter has to make, meeting his/her needs.:)

SharpsDressedMan
January 18, 2014, 09:44 PM
I just looked it up, and Buffalo Bores .32acp 75gr hardcast round gives 220 ft/lbs of energy. It would penetrate very well (a tactical issue that was raised by the FBI after the Miami shootout), and do it better than a .380 round with similar energy, do to the .32's ballistic coefficient for that bullet style.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 18, 2014, 10:49 PM
My hand loaded .32 ACP uses the same bullet that Buffalo Bore uses in their round...Rim Rocks .312 75 gr. hard cast lead flat nose. In the present incarnation I am pushing them to 1050 fps - right around 200 fpe and no signs of excess pressure. I can push them harder but have not yet done that.

When the weather warms up again and I can resume penetration and velocity testing outdoors I'm gonna pump 'em up a bit more but right now they are getting 15" - 17" of penetration in 20% ballistic gelatine. I'd guess BB's offering gets that much or more and the bullet will deform if it hits bone but not mushroom and slow down. It dumps it's energy very deep in tissue unlike some hollow points that can pass thru skin, ribs or sternum and immediately slow down. Here's a video of Buffalo Bore's 75 gr. flat nose being tested...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrKDnLLUd-Y

The .32 will never be a blockbuster caliber but it *is* suitable for self defense..not the best caliber if you can handle something bigger in the recoil department and hide it/carry it but I feel very comfortable being able to put that kind of lead in the air accurately with repeated fast followups with my little Colts.

I'd really love to see some modern pistols chambered for .32 with longer barrels on the order of 3.5" - 4" as the longer barrels in a small gun would still be concealable and make much better use of the .32's limited power. I guess the release of the Glock 42 has me wishing we could get the same thing in .32 but I'm sure that is never going to happen.

Dang it. :)

VooDoo

C0untZer0
January 18, 2014, 11:22 PM
I didn't think the G42 would be chambered in .32 ACP but it did have me hoping :)

C0untZer0
January 18, 2014, 11:39 PM
I just looked it up, and Buffalo Bores .32acp 75gr hardcast round gives 220 ft/lbs of energy. It would penetrate very well (a tactical issue that was raised by the FBI after the Miami shootout), and do it better than a .380 round with similar energy, do to the .32's ballistic coefficient for that bullet style.

I don't know, actual gel test show the S&B 73gr FMJ penetrating to around 14" while 380 FMJs routinely zip out the back of 18" gel blocks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Haq4-W5WkoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkscBbMGp5k

IdahoSkies
January 19, 2014, 12:54 AM
The difference in the .32 ACP and the .380 is insignificant in terms of lethality and use as a SD round. For me, I prefer to carry the .32 ACP as a back up or when I cannot have a larger pistol due to this information and also due to the fact that a similar sized .32 yields faster/more accurate follow ups than a comparable pistol in .380.

VooDoo

This is the reason my EDC is a .32 ACP. In the same size package I get an extra round, more controllable recoil with out a real world difference in terminal ballistics. Yes on paper there is some difference, but from what I have read and seen I am going to want two rounds of each in what ever I am shooting, and I'd rather have the extra round and precision the .32 ACP gives.

I wish more folks would wake up to the fact that the .380 really should not be in a pocket gun.

snooperman
January 19, 2014, 10:50 AM
Yes, a Glock 42 in 32ACP that can handle a steady diet of Buffalo bore would be a must-have for me.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 19, 2014, 11:20 AM
There are a number of guns that are currently offered in .380 that would shine in .32 but the manufacturers undoubtedly feel that .32 is dead or will be ignored. The Ruger LCP, which is a wonderful gun, simply kicks too hard with hot .380. In .32 it would lose roughly 17% the energy of a mild .22 (according to the Brassfetcher data and testing I have done personally...) which is insignificant in an SD encounter and gain control ability for rapid and accurate follow ups in the hands of the inexperienced or smaller stature shooters that often buy these types of pistols for CCW.

The polymer framed Colt Mustang is another example as is the Sig Sauer P238 and others. It wouldn't cost the manufacturers of these gun squat to offer a .32 ACP version if not an option to switch back and forth like the Beretta Pico is slated to offer. If we ever see a Pico in .32 it's on the bucket list for me and Mama as well. I wonder if proponents of .32 have not been vocal enough nor aggressive enough in discussions about preferences and desire for new .32 pistols?

Certainly there are not droves eagerly wanting .32 pistols but I'd bet if they were available from Colt, Sig Sauer, Ruger, S&W, Glock and others they'd sell enough to earn their keep. The S&W Bodyguard .380 chambered in .32 would be absolutely yummy and a must have for me as well but we'll never see it. I'm still surprised at the number of Beretta Tomcats I see at the range. I'm always shocked when I sweep up brass after a range session and find .32 ACP in there with the 9mm, .380, .40, and .45 every now and then.

Somebody is shooting .32 besides me and my group of malcontents...

VooDoo

SIGLBER
January 19, 2014, 12:33 PM
I've owned two P32's an they have both been great. For the price, size, trigger, accuracy, reliability, weight they are hard to beat. Mine went bang everytime. Sold both to female friends that needed something small they could carry at work. But could shoot well. The .3's in the light weight guns are much more pleasant to shootthan the lightweight .380's. Plus you usually get a round or two extra.
According to Mas Ayoob shooting through the skullsof pigs scheduled for the slaughter house the .380's often won't penetrate the skull and the .32's will. Penetration and expansion are hard to get both out of the .32 and .380. Although the Hornady XTP .380 does a pretty good job. But you must get to vitals which means penetraion. If you use FMJ toget penetration litle difference in frontal area which does the damage between .32 and .380is small. Plus the .32 is as mentioned much easier to control. Easier to hit with
and faster follow upshots.
Habe been looking for one of those Colt '03's or '08's for awhile. Paper thin, relaible with original magazines, and accurate. Used by OSS and U.S. forces and other groups to good effect in WW II. And the Shanghi British Mandate Police to good effect earlier. It is a proven weapon.

larryh1108
January 19, 2014, 02:50 PM
It wouldn't take much for any company making .380 pocket pistols to offer a barrel for the .32ACP as well or separately. Perhaps a slightly lighter recoil spring but everything else should work as designed. Even the mags should feed both. Very little extra work needed for additional sales and profit.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 19, 2014, 07:31 PM
Geez, I didn't think of that.....I wonder how much it would set me back to have a family member that has a machine shop and programers and such make me an exact replacement barrel for a Ruger LCP (as an example - maybe a Glock 42 or S&W Bodyguard...) in .32 ACP?

I need to check on that. If I pick the right gun I could probably produce "kits" and recover the cost of tooling up/prototype by selling them to others! :what:

What a great idea...I'm stealin' it! ;)

VooDoo

Old Fuff
January 19, 2014, 07:44 PM
Don't jump too fast. The breechface on a .380 is larger then a .32, so you might need a different extractor. Ejector location might be too much outboard. Possibly magazine issues.

Colt's 1908 .380 Pocket Model version of the original 1903 did have some problems, which they were very careful to not say much about until the U.S. Navy got into it. Notice they never offered a conversion kit for the Pocket Models.

On the other hand H&K did, but it included besides the internal parts a new slide, barrel, magazine(s) and recoil spring.

larryh1108
January 19, 2014, 07:44 PM
If it works out, I can be a prototype tester for you.
I have a LCP.
I am a lover of all the .32ACP offers as well.

larryh1108
January 19, 2014, 07:48 PM
I have several Llama .380s that I shoot the .32ACP out of with their .32ACP barrel (they made the same gun in both calibers). The mags interchange and the extraction is the same in both. All of them work fine with the .380 and .32 barrels.

I'm not saying all models will work flawlessly but it's worth a shot!

351 WINCHESTER
January 19, 2014, 10:46 PM
The 1910 Browning will shoot both with only a barrel swap.

toivo
January 20, 2014, 02:44 AM
Somebody is shooting .32 besides me and my group of malcontents...
Someone is. Me.

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/tomi245/DSCF0433.jpg

I would have like to have seen a CZ 82 in .32 ACP but it didn't happen.

Call it an 83 and voila!

http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/cz83.jpg

Double-stack magazine holds 15 rounds of .32 ACP. I have the NY-neutered 10-round version. :mad:

They didn't import that many into the US, and now they've stopped altogether. I don't know if they're still making them for the European market.

Phantom Captain
January 20, 2014, 06:41 PM
I'm actually a really big fan and shoot my .32s quite often as well. I really love them for all the reasons people mention. Accurate, quick follow up, highly concealable, etc. etc. I carry hard cast flat nose Buffalo Bore in the PPK when I carry it and feel completely confident with the choice.

I love both of my .32s. I have a 1938 pre-war Walther PPK which I do carry in the summer at times when I want something super slim and I also have this awesome 1971 Swedish police surplus PP which is amazingly smooth. The trigger on the PP is one of the best I've shot. I like the slightly longer barrel of the PP too as it does impart more energy to the projectile. My wife also really likes the .32s as they are easy for her to rack the slide and the recoil is completely manageable. She's very confident in shooting them. She actually doesn't mind the .380 PPK/s either but does like the .32 more. She's debated carrying the PP herself.

I'm a BIG fan.

toivo, I would love to get my hands on one of those 15 round CZ-83s! I've coveted one of those for a while now!

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/mboyd13/0a71f364-841d-45dd-a87e-78aec238cdf1_zps5d3f38ed.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/user/mboyd13/media/0a71f364-841d-45dd-a87e-78aec238cdf1_zps5d3f38ed.jpg.html)

Gun Master
January 20, 2014, 06:43 PM
Someone is. Me.

http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss331/tomi245/DSCF0433.jpg



Call it an 83 and voila!

http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/cz83.jpg

Double-stack magazine holds 15 rounds of .32 ACP. I have the NY-neutered 10-round version. :mad:

They didn't import that many into the US, and now they've stopped altogether. I don't know if they're still making them for the European market.
Nice ! I have two of the 1st three, and they were made in the US. The other one I like, but not US made. Guess ? Of the last one, I own it also, kinda. Mine is an 82 in 9 x 18mm Mak.:)

will11
January 22, 2014, 01:14 AM
I carry the Kel Tec P32 in front pocket more than any other pistol I have. Even though I love my Colt .45's I feel very confident carrying the P32. The Pistol has been very reliable.

RetiredUSNChief
January 22, 2014, 01:42 AM
Friends, just why is it that a .380 seems to be all the rage while the 32acp is about forgotten ? There can't be much difference in power and I believe that the 32 actually penetrates a little better ? With some of the new bullet designs being what they are, why not utilize that small 32 acp you have tucked away ? Just asking ?

Well...if you honestly want a good reason, then show me where 32 acp is as easy to find as .380 acp.

Other than general perception with respect to smaller calibers of pistol ammunition, ammunition availability is a huge part of it.

chicharrones
January 22, 2014, 09:47 AM
It wouldn't take much for any company making .380 pocket pistols to offer a barrel for the .32ACP as well or separately. Perhaps a slightly lighter recoil spring but everything else should work as designed. Even the mags should feed both. Very little extra work needed for additional sales and profit.

Taurus made one in their TCP line called a 732. I have one. It has a different barrel, slide, and magazine than the .380 ACP model 738. They are easy shooting guns, but got discontinued a year or two ago.

The sad truth is that Americans just aren't buying pocket .32 ACP guns when the same size will get you a .380 ACP pocket gun.

http://www.lssdigital.com/lwpilot/tcp-732.jpg

Vodoun da Vinci
January 22, 2014, 10:33 AM
The sad truth is that Americans just aren't buying pocket .32 ACP guns when the same size will get you a .380 ACP pocket gun.



It's true, unfortunately. I'm really looking forward to the Beretta Pico which is slated to have a drop in .32 ACP option as I simply prefer .32 to .380 in the same/similar sized gun because I already load for .32 ACP. It is very close in terminal performance to the .380 yet easier to get fast follow ups because of the mild recoil.

But sadly I think the .32 ACP is slipping into history unless people actively start buying pistols and ammunition in this caliber and I do not see than happening as the perception is that the .32 has been superseded by the .380.

I bought a bunch of .32 ACP last Summer while working up my hand loads and saved all the brass. I have enough brass and bullets and as long as I can get powder and primers I'll have .32 for the rest of my lifetime if I only shoot 100 rounds a month or so. But it's now getting hard to find and expensive when you can - can't seem to find Fiocchi 71 gr. hardball, S&B hardball, or Wnchester White Box in .32 anywhere....I can get premium stuff like Buffalo Bore and such but spending $1.00 a round or more is just crazy talk. I save the odd range brass I find in .32 which, surprisingly, I do find on the floor at regular intervals.

VooDoo

Gun Master
January 22, 2014, 12:35 PM
It's true, unfortunately. I'm really looking forward to the Beretta Pico which is slated to have a drop in .32 ACP option as I simply prefer .32 to .380 in the same/similar sized gun because I already load for .32 ACP. It is very close in terminal performance to the .380 yet easier to get fast follow ups because of the mild recoil.

But sadly I think the .32 ACP is slipping into history unless people actively start buying pistols and ammunition in this caliber and I do not see than happening as the perception is that the .32 has been superseded by the .380.

I bought a bunch of .32 ACP last Summer while working up my hand loads and saved all the brass. I have enough brass and bullets and as long as I can get powder and primers I'll have .32 for the rest of my lifetime if I only shoot 100 rounds a month or so. But it's now getting hard to find and expensive when you can - can't seem to find Fiocchi 71 gr. hardball, S&B hardball, or Wnchester White Box in .32 anywhere....I can get premium stuff like Buffalo Bore and such but spending $1.00 a round or more is just crazy talk. I save the odd range brass I find in .32 which, surprisingly, I do find on the floor at regular intervals.

VooDoo
Have you done any documented or measured bullet penetration tests, especially .32 ACP and .380 ACP, with phone books, pine boards, etc. ? If so, have you done others like : .22LR, .22 MAG, 9mm (9x19), 9x18 Mak, .38 SP, .357 MAG, and .45 ACP ? I'd be interested .:)

snooperman
January 22, 2014, 12:37 PM
"But sadly, I think the 32 ACP is slipping into history". Well, that is what they said about the 380ACP a few years ago. Hopefully, with more and more women and elderly people with conceal carry permits, that might change. Like you, I would like to see more offerings in this caliber, like the Pico, and especially one the size of the new Glock 42. With better ammo like buffalo Bore etc, I think it changes the equation somewhat in its favor. As you mentioned before , the double tap with the 32 is a big plus as well , with stopping power being as good as or better than the 380.

snooperman
January 22, 2014, 12:50 PM
Gun Master, I have done a number of tests here at my farm range with the 32acp and 380. I have found that in soaked newspapers wadded up in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bag that the 32 acp ball ammo has more penetration than hollowpoint 380. Research done by Greg Ellifritz, an LEO, compiled much data on people being shot . He found that the 32 acp had as many stops with one shot as the 380acp. His article was in US conceal carry magazine last summer. You can probably bring it up by typing in "stopping power with one shot" by Greg Ellifritz.

gym
January 22, 2014, 01:03 PM
The seacamp was the last 32 I owned. Back about 15 years ago when it first came out. Ammo was very expensive, "silvertips only" in the first models. The bullet was made for the gun, so they say, who knows, but when 9mm was 10-12 bucks a box, this stuff was $50.
The 327 mag was an interesting rounds that really didn't catch either.
There are a couple of other 32 rounds over the years 32 H&R magnum etc, but I wouldn't want to need ammo, and have to locate it fast. You need to buy it by the case in this instance. Another problem for many. It does shoot smoother in the standard 32 than the higher pressure 380 does, and for a hideout gun, it might do. I would only use it in that capacity, as a second gun, or a range gun, although I always wanted a 1903 colt in pristine condition, the flatness of the gun has an allure.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 22, 2014, 01:31 PM
Have you done any documented or measured bullet penetration tests, especially .32 ACP and .380 ACP, with phone books, pine boards, etc. ? If so, have you done others like : .22LR, .22 MAG, 9mm (9x19), 9x18 Mak, .38 SP, .357 MAG, and .45 ACP ? I'd be interested .:)

I have done a lot of testing on factory .32 loads and researched a lot of information available online via Brassfetcher Ballistics, a fellow at GoldenLoki.com (whose information has now vanished) and stuff from other forums like at KTOG's various testers and .32 developer. My experience (my personal testing) is not documented except in notebooks at home.

The reason I have not taken the time to publicly document my testing is very complex but generally I have been "shouted down" by the Big Caliber Bully Boys so many times that I feel doing so would only subject me to a level of snark and criticism that makes the time expenditure pointless. My tests pretty much verified what is already commonly available via the 'Net if one Googles and searches.

I have settled on hard cast flat nose lead bullets which are Rim Rock Bullets 75 gr. Premiums...the same bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their .32 offering. I am driving them to 1050+ fps and getting 17" of penetration in 20% Ballistic Gelatine in tests I paid for at a ballistics testing lab which will remain un named. I used my 2 Colt 1903 Model M's. I have not seen signs of excess pressure and believe I can drive the same bullets faster, deeper, harder.

To be fair, the recoil of these rounds is almost identical to a hot factory .380 round from the same pistol...I have friends with .380 Colt model M's. Others have documented (and I have tested the same) of resizing 85 gr. Hornady XTP's down to .309 and running them very hot as well and the penetration and expansion ends up with deeply penetrating bullets (over 12") and expansion to .40 and even .50 caliber with excellent retention of the jacket and almost zero fragmentation. These bullets in this configuration would be awesome SD rounds in a .32 ACP but more testing needs to be done.

My point: The .32 is not only acceptable as an SD round but as others have pointed out might be excellent if you read some one shot stop statistics without the bias. With development? I think we have only guessed at how potent a .32 ACP could be if maximized and shot out of 3.5" - 4" barrels instead of tiny mouse gun barrels. To be fair, the recoil will be a lot stiffer but the results are still less recoil than a comparable 9mm.

VooDoo

Old Fuff
January 22, 2014, 01:47 PM
Be careful when developing/testing hot loads in a Colt Pocket Model pistol. These, like many others have Browning straight blowback actions. In other words the slide and barrel are not locked together during a dwell time when the bullet goes down the barrel and exits thereby letting pressure drop.

The only thing that keeps a straight blowback action closed is the weight of the slide and tension from the recoil and hammer mainspring. This is the reason Browning only used this system with relatively low pressure cartridges. Going too far up can result in frame/slide battering.

Incidentally, Browning was not involved in the development of the 1908 .380 version, just Colt engineers.

There isn't much you can do about the mainspring, but recoil springs should be regularly replaced with heavy duty ones in any blowback pistol that is used often.

Also, if you can find one, a pistol with a locked breech design is a much better platform to use for load development.

Gun Master
January 22, 2014, 03:09 PM
Gun Master, I have done a number of tests here at my farm range with the 32acp and 380. I have found that in soaked newspapers wadded up in cardboard boxes lined with plastic bag that the 32 acp ball ammo has more penetration than hollowpoint 380. Research done by Greg Ellifritz, an LEO, compiled much data on people being shot . He found that the 32 acp had as many stops with one shot as the 380acp. His article was in US conceal carry magazine last summer. You can probably bring it up by typing in "stopping power with one shot" by Greg Ellifritz.
I would expect ball ammo to penetrate better than hollow point, all things being equal. Also, I would expect HP to "knock a bigger hole" than FMJ of the same caliber. For it to do any good, the bullet first must penetrate. Otherwise, the worst it could do is "make a sore(tender) place", or "hurt his feelings", which would be worse, making him mad, and intent on doing the shooter harm. Only 2nd would expansion be important. First, penetrate, next expansion. Both are important.

Do you have any info re: FMJ & HP in .32 and .380 ?

Thanks for your reply ?:)

chicharrones
January 22, 2014, 03:15 PM
With development? I think we have only guessed at how potent a .32 ACP could be if maximized and shot out of 3.5" - 4" barrels instead of tiny mouse gun barrels. To be fair, the recoil will be a lot stiffer but the results are still less recoil than a comparable 9mm.

VooDoo

Well, I think North American Arms did try out a "magnum" .32 ACP in the .32 NAA cartridge, which never took off. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_NAA I can imagine how cool that would be to try in a CZ83 or the like.

Speaking of modern bottle neck pistol cartridges, it makes me think of the .22 TCM as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_TCM

Vodoun da Vinci
January 22, 2014, 03:23 PM
Thank You, Old Fuff. :)

I only developed the really hot loads as SD/carry rounds for my personal .32 ACP and to prove (to myself) that the .32 ACP is not/does not have to be an impotent round. It is not a powerhouse even in a hot hand load but is only outperformed by a 9mm round that has much more recoil.

I do not shoot them regularly as I would not want to risk my Colts.

There are several locked breech guns I'd like to use for expanded testing but most of them have shorter barrels than my control guns. Basically I have what I need to feel comfortable using this combination for SD in a BUG role - my Soul Mate carry guns will be 9mm as I feel I have mastered them to a sufficient degree that I can both conceal them and get one multiple handed hits while moving laterally to cover at 21'. My Wife and smaller, more recoil sensitive folks, will never pull that off with a 9mm and I think a .32 even with premium .32 SD ammunition is a good choice.

Sadly there doesn't seem to be any pistols like the Glock 42 being developed for .32 ACP but we can always hope. :)

VooDoo

Vodoun da Vinci
January 22, 2014, 03:35 PM
Research done by Greg Ellifritz, an LEO, compiled much data on people being shot . He found that the 32 acp had as many stops with one shot as the 380acp. His article was in US conceal carry magazine last summer. You can probably bring it up by typing in "stopping power with one shot" by Greg Ellifritz.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

This study by Mr. Ellifritz has always been controversial as well as puzzling to me. Personally I agree with his conclusions but have always wondered why he does not trust his own raw data to come to other conclusions. Several of his charts of raw data show the .32 as much more potent in the SD role than most people give it credit for or believe it to be.

Yet early in the paper, Mr. Ellifritz states that while this is what the data shows he does not believe for one minute that the .32 ACP performs in reality at this level. And in my mind this throws the whole dissertation into the "subjective research" category and was one of the driving forces behind me spending a whole lot of time testing and making my own data.

He has accumulated the data...and then discredited it by subjectively saying he didn't believe it to be accurate.

My opinion.

VooDoo

Gun Master
January 22, 2014, 05:29 PM
I have done a lot of testing on factory .32 loads and researched a lot of information available online via Brassfetcher Ballistics, a fellow at GoldenLoki.com (whose information has now vanished) and stuff from other forums like at KTOG's various testers and .32 developer. My experience (my personal testing) is not documented except in notebooks at home.

The reason I have not taken the time to publicly document my testing is very complex but generally I have been "shouted down" by the Big Caliber Bully Boys so many times that I feel doing so would only subject me to a level of snark and criticism that makes the time expenditure pointless. My tests pretty much verified what is already commonly available via the 'Net if one Googles and searches.

I have settled on hard cast flat nose lead bullets which are Rim Rock Bullets 75 gr. Premiums...the same bullet Buffalo Bore uses in their .32 offering. I am driving them to 1050+ fps and getting 17" of penetration in 20% Ballistic Gelatine in tests I paid for at a ballistics testing lab which will remain un named. I used my 2 Colt 1903 Model M's. I have not seen signs of excess pressure and believe I can drive the same bullets faster, deeper, harder.

To be fair, the recoil of these rounds is almost identical to a hot factory .380 round from the same pistol...I have friends with .380 Colt model M's. Others have documented (and I have tested the same) of resizing 85 gr. Hornady XTP's down to .309 and running them very hot as well and the penetration and expansion ends up with deeply penetrating bullets (over 12") and expansion to .40 and even .50 caliber with excellent retention of the jacket and almost zero fragmentation. These bullets in this configuration would be awesome SD rounds in a .32 ACP but more testing needs to be done.

My point: The .32 is not only acceptable as an SD round but as others have pointed out might be excellent if you read some one shot stop statistics without the bias. With development? I think we have only guessed at how potent a .32 ACP could be if maximized and shot out of 3.5" - 4" barrels instead of tiny mouse gun barrels. To be fair, the recoil will be a lot stiffer but the results are still less recoil than a comparable 9mm.

VooDoo
As I have said before, I have a Colt 1908 .380.

The only .32 ACP I own is a Kel-Tec P-32, with an extra 10 rd. mag with grip extension, which helps considerably in grip control (and just "feels better"). It is very light and I carry it in an Uncle Mike's Pocket holster.

My other main carry gun is a S&W Model 638, which is heavier than the .32, but I feel safer with, due to the more powerful .38 SPL. Also carried in a pocket holster, and speed loader in the other pocket.

My choices are usually: (1)Do you want to keep your pants up (.32)? or (2)Are your pants secure enough and need more power (.38)?

I now have a 3rd option - CZ-82 (9x18Mak.) 12 rd. mag (plus extra 12 mag), in a shoulder rig, if I have a coat or extra shirt over it. Nothing over the rig, back to (1) or (2) above.

Decisions, decisions !:confused: Any 2nd choices you have or after thoughts ?:)

snooperman
January 22, 2014, 05:46 PM
What I get from Ellifritz data , is that there really is not a big difference in stopping power in handguns of various calibers because there are many reasons why the bad guy was stopped. He was hit and did not want to get hit again, or it was psychological and not physical etc. At the end he states , "carry what you want and practice with it and become proficient, caliber is not that important". Based on his findings and others, I can buy that. He also states it would be advisable for people to carry the largest caliber that they feel they can shoot, and carry adequately. For some it is a 32 ACP and for others it may be a 9mm.

snooperman
January 22, 2014, 05:54 PM
The problem with the 32 ACP , is that because of its low mass , it is difficult to get a hollowpoint to open up at the velocities that we find in factory loads. With the new locked breech guns, the hot Buffalo bore rounds could make a difference. I have shot them and am impressed with results.

snooperman
January 22, 2014, 06:10 PM
If you want expansion from the 32 acp you will have to get the velocity much higher than factory loads because that could be a problem for the many older blow-back guns that are in existence. That is who they are loaded for.

Gun Master
January 22, 2014, 06:16 PM
What I get from Ellifritz data , is that there really is not a big difference in stopping power in handguns of various calibers because there are many reasons why the bad guy was stopped. He was hit and did not want to get hit again, or it was psychological and not physical etc. At the end he states , "carry what you want and practice with it and become proficient, caliber is not that important". Based on his findings and others, I can buy that. He also states it would be advisable for people to carry the largest caliber that they feel they can shoot, and carry adequately. For some it is a 32 ACP and for others it may be a 9mm.
Right! I think we may all (or at least most) agree. If you can hit it, punch through it, and possibly keep doing it until the perp is down, then go for it!:D I think there are several well functioning .32 ACP's out there. Besides the Colt 1903 (&'08), there were many fine European .32 Autos, such as : Ortgies, Walther (esp. PPK), Sauer & Sohn, and Mauser (esp. HsC):cool:. Astra and Star had their share, and I'm sorry to see them go. Down south, Bersa shows promise. Taurus has admirers and naysayers. Of course, everybody likes Seacamp. And the list goes on........:)

larryh1108
January 22, 2014, 06:46 PM
There seems to be a lot of love for the .32ACP here. Maybe it's time for a picture thread for .32ACPs only, like there are for many other flavors? There has been some nice pictures here but I bet there are many more out there.

jimbo555
January 22, 2014, 07:20 PM
Greg Ellifritz study regarding the 32acp shows that 40% of the people shot were not incapacitated no matter how many times they were shot. Much higher rate than 380 calibers and above.

usp9
January 22, 2014, 08:22 PM
...time for a picture thread...


CZ83, Walther PP, Sig P230, Seecamp
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/TEST002.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/TEST002.jpg.html)

Llama Especial
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i186/ripley16/Pistols/Current%20Pistols/Llama014_zpsac53ef07.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/user/ripley16/media/Pistols/Current%20Pistols/Llama014_zpsac53ef07.jpg.html)

orionengnr
January 22, 2014, 10:05 PM
Lots of good reasons that the .32 is "forgotton" (sic). It is an inadequate round.

There are lots of reasons that many people consider the .380 the bare minimum....and in some cases, barely adequate. Because that is exactly what it is.

The one .32 I owned was a K-T P32. I gave it to a friend's wife. She is a 40+y.o. sub 5 foot, sub 100 lb Filipino woman who has very little experience with firearms and is very recoil-sensitive.

Firing the P32 side by side with a P3AT clearly demonstrated the lack of power that the .32 possesses. Better than a .22LR, but only just.

Talk all you want about how a .32 felled Archduke Ferdinand. And remember that a .22LR has felled many a cow, and many a human, usually from behind at point blank (execution) range.

And then consider how many militaries or LEAs carry .32s or .380s.

None.

And there is a reason for that (or several, actually). And if you cannot understand or accept those reasons, then you are deluded, in denial, and rationalizing.

Feel free to continue rationalizing, but do not for one moment believe that your willingness to do so changes anything.

Sorry. Objective truth is often harsh.

And denial is always easy.

jimbo555
January 22, 2014, 10:22 PM
Beautiful collection usp9! Especially the walther pp!

Vodoun da Vinci
January 22, 2014, 10:49 PM
Well, thanks for the reality check. :o

Great pix. We had another picture thread on the .32 guns a while back but I never get tired of seeing them. I have a line on a Beretta 82 that is burning a hole in my head but I just spent the funds on a Glock 42 for Mama.

I need to take some glamor pix of my Colts....until then:

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p709/VodoundaVinci/Colt1903and1911_zpsa200a184.jpg

http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p709/VodoundaVinci/PointShooting_zps65bfc96e.jpg

VooDoo

SharpsDressedMan
January 22, 2014, 10:55 PM
Inadequate round? Ha! All in context. It's a GREAT round for small game, especially with Silvertips. Gold Dots, or XTP's. For true pocket pistols, that fit in a pocket, or people that just don't like the jolt of a .380. Myself, I just like the GUNS. So many cool pistols designs. Oh yes, and they WILL kill, if necessary. This is a 50 yard target, shot over the bench. ......................... http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05940.jpg (http://s106.photobucket.com/user/matquig/media/DSC05940.jpg.html)

larryh1108
January 22, 2014, 11:17 PM
Inadequate?
Perhaps, but it's been around for over 100 years and there are millions of .32ACP pistols out there. Somebody likes them. They are still being produced. The first number may not contain a 4 but it's common knowledge that most pistol calibers are considered inadequate. So, accept the facts that it's just more inadequate than any other pistol cartridge. I'll sleep well even though I am deluding myself. I'll get over it. I promise.

CZ70 with Marschal grips.

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o435/larryh1108/CZ%20USA/CZ70left2.jpg (http://s342.photobucket.com/user/larryh1108/media/CZ%20USA/CZ70left2.jpg.html)

MedWheeler
January 22, 2014, 11:57 PM
And then consider how many militaries or LEAs carry .32s or .380s.

About as many as are carrying the .44 Magnum, or .500 Magnum.

It's not just about caliber. After all, the 9mm Luger, especially in NATO configuration, is hardly regarded as "the best" manstopper out there.

The .32ACP and the .45ACP rounds have both been around for over a century. Don't "go there" about how one has made the other obsolete. It hasn't happened.

The .32 has not been "forgotten." When something has not happened, any arguments as to why it has are senseless.

PapaGrune
January 23, 2014, 01:15 AM
Beretta Tomcat. It will shot any thing. I have a mag with FMJ, HP and Gold Dot. More mags than that I have bought over the there. Some guy talked about having .380. He said shoot one, drop it use another one then drop it and then run....

I have no problem doing a mag change on my Tomcat. If I can not put a bad guy down with this, I had better run. It is a always carry, but I may carry some thing else. Love my Sig. But can not always carry it.

Old Fuff
January 23, 2014, 01:20 AM
Lots of good reasons that the .32 is "forgotton" (sic). It is an inadequate round.

But only as a matter of opinion, and then mostly - if not entirely - in the United States. It remains popular in Europe and other places around the world. We don't see it here because the BATF&E's point system blocks it from being imported, along with a number of .380 pistols.

Until about 1970 it was commonly used as a police sidearm in Europe, and replaced by the 9x19 Para. mainly because it was decided to use a pistol chambered the same as sub-machine guns then coming into use.

In terms of popularity a type/caliber of a gun can be roughly judged by ammunition sales, and until the current panic the .32 ACP has always ranked somewhere in the top handgun candidates, even though after 1968 few have been added to the national inventory.

Sorry. Objective truth is often harsh.

PapaGrune
January 23, 2014, 01:22 AM
never mind

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 09:06 AM
"And then consider how many LEO and militaries carry 32 or 380." Well , when I was stationed in Germany in 1960-1964 as a Tanker in 4th Armored Div I came across many German officers in the Bundeswehr and Bundesgrenschutz that carried them. And today, many police in Central and South America and Eastern European countries still carry the 380 size guns. Research shows that more people are shot and stopped with smaller caliber handguns because that is what most carry on a daily basis. Not only in the U.S. but in many other countries as well.

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 09:14 AM
Also, when it comes too accuracy, the larger caliber guns can not beat the 32 caliber handguns on the target range. Whether it is a revolver in 32 long or 32 ACP pistol.

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 09:28 AM
Also, when it comes too accuracy, the larger caliber guns can not beat the 32 caliber handguns on the target range. Whether it is a revolver in 32 long or 32 ACP pistol.

:scrutiny:

I beg to differ, if only just on general principle.

toivo
January 23, 2014, 10:29 AM
Yeah, color me confused too. I haven't heard great accuracy claims made for the .32 auto, unless you mean the ability to get back on target in rapid-fire, due to less muzzle flip and felt recoil.

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 10:31 AM
"General principle"? Well at the Olympics for many years the 32 caliber was the king in competitiion, and still is in European matches. Yes at greater distances than they shoot I will agree the larger calibers hold the edge.

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 10:41 AM
Yes, they have matches where rapid fire is a part of it . Now in the Olympics the 22 has taken over and it is a different mix. In the U.S at Camp Perry the heavy barrel 22 pistols take the prizes that the 32 once did but that is also a different game too. The longer range matches are of course dominated by the larger bore guns.

Billy Shears
January 23, 2014, 10:44 AM
Well, Grant Cunningham recently posted an article about the .380, which cites Greg Ellifritz' data (which someone else here mentioned).

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/380-beat-9mm/

Here's what he had to say about it:

The best database of handgun performance I’ve yet seen comes from Greg Ellifritz at Active Response Training. His results, compiled from hundreds of actual shootings over many years, show that while the .380 doesn’t work quite as well as the 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP in its job of stopping attackers, it’s also not that far off.

In Ellifritz’s studies, the “major” calibers are pretty darned close to each other in terms of actual performance. Close enough, in fact, that they are in a statistical dead heat. The .380, on the other hand, is definitely not the performer that the bigger cartridges are. But the little .380 is still remarkably effective and a whole lot better than anything smaller. In fact, the difference between the .380 and the .40 S&W, to pick one at random, is less than the difference between the .380 and the .32 ACP.

Is the .380 half as good as the 9mm? If the data is accurate, it’s actually better than that.

Looking at Ellifritz' data directly between the .380 and .32 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866) you see that in most categories (number of one-shot stops, percentage of hits that were fatal, average number of rounds fired to stop an attack, etc.) the rounds are pretty close. But there is one category where the .380 comes out way, way ahead. This also happens to be the least desirable category to be a low performer in, IMHO.

32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)

# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%


.380 ACP

# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

I seldom even carry a .380 these days. I can't see any reason why I would step down to a much weaker cartridge when I find a compact 9mm eminently controllable, and can use an equally controllable .380 for the few occasions when I need an even smaller gun.

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 10:51 AM
Thanks for the back-up as I have preaching about this data for some time. Ellifritz research is sound and real not contrived.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 23, 2014, 10:52 AM
I would appeal to the other .32 aficionados not to let this thread be derailed by Caliber Bullies. I have seen this happen over and over and over and will not participate in the "mine is bigger and better" contest. I have my data and my opinions and allow others to have theirs without contest.

Please, Gentlemen...do not engage the Bullies that are now sure to flock to this thread as they always do. We are having fun and learning, sharing, and other good things.

Just proceed as usual...nothing to see here. Move along...move along... :)

VooDoo

snooperman
January 23, 2014, 10:57 AM
If you like 32 caliber target pistols , the Benelli MP90 "World Cup" is a dandy along with the Walther GSP 32 semiauto pistol. The Swiss and Germans are far more into 32 caliber matches now than are Americans. They shoot a special wadcutter bullet for best accuracy.

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 02:35 PM
"General principle"? Well at the Olympics for many years the 32 caliber was the king in competitiion, and still is in European matches. Yes at greater distances than they shoot I will agree the larger calibers hold the edge.

Uh huh. And might there be another reason why guns used in OLYMPIC shooting sports might be "king in competition" over others? Like, oh I dunno...maybe the fact that those guns are not the regular run-of-the-mill gun for whatever caliber, whether .32, .22LR, or any other caliber?

Pitting any gun which is specifically chosen for Olympic competition against any other off-the-shelf gun, regardless of caliber, is automatically starting off with an uneven playing field.

The common .32 caliber handgun, I daresay, was NOT what was being used in the Olympics any more than the common .22LR handgun is for today's Olympics. My AMT Automag II is a darned accurate .22 WMR...but no way can it compete against an Anschutz .22LR pistol used in the Olympics. Apples and oranges in comparison.

If you meant your comment in post #118 to read "Also, when it comes too accuracy, the larger caliber guns can not beat the Olympic 32 caliber handguns on the target range. Whether it is a revolver in 32 long or 32 ACP pistol.", then there would be a world of truth in that. However, the common .32 caliber pistol, like those used by various European police agencies of decades past, was very likely no more and no less accurate than any other common pistol (or revolver) in any caliber.

If you're making comparisons based on rapid fire accuracy, then smaller caliber handguns will tend to carry the day on this simply because of recoil management in re-aquiring the target sight. That's a no-brainer, and doesn't have anything to do with individual slow-fire accuracy of any given pistol.

I seriously doubt that the average, off-the-shelf .32 caliber pistol is any more or less accurate than any other comparable, average, off-the-shelf caliber pistol of comparable barrel length. (It would be unfair to pit a 3 inch .32 caliber pistol against an 8 inch fixed barrel opponent, for example.)


Of the pistols my wife and I own, I would take her new S&W .380 PPK/S against any non-Olympic grade, unmodified .32 caliber semiauto. Of the guns we own, that is the only one with a comparable barrel length (3.3 inches). All others have longer barrel lengths. (Which I would also happily use for comparison purposes, if you wish.) None are "match grade" or custom jobs and none have any aftermarket modifications (other than some sight paint on one of my pistols).


NOW, all that said:

I wouldn't mind owning a nice .32 pistol if I happened to run across one that I liked. However, it's not on my list-of-guns-to-get because .32 ammunition is not as commonly available as I would like. If it were, then such a pistol would be on that list and I'd be actively planning on getting one.

Old Fuff
January 23, 2014, 05:39 PM
I believe that if you look into the issue further you'll find that the cartridge used in Olympic Center Fire matches is the .32 S&W Long/Full-Wadcutter load usually associated with revolvers. However in this case (pardon the pun) the platform-of-choice is highly customized target pistols. Distance over which the course is fired is 25 meters. Machine rest test groups are generally .750 inches or less.

That said, .32 ACP/7.65mm Browning pistols were popular in some target matches in Europe as well as elsewhere. Also .25 ACP/6.35mm built on larger then vest pocket pistol platforms. In the right package both rounds are more accurate then most people think.

Hurryin' Hoosier
January 23, 2014, 06:22 PM
All I know is that I love my Česká Zbrojovka vz.70. I managed to pick one up which was made in 1974 but was absolutely "new old stock". Accurate as heck, low recoil, built like a tank, and a perfect fit for my pocket (in a Robert Mika pocket holster).

Gun Master
January 23, 2014, 06:24 PM
Agreed.

We have (or should have IMHO) come together to share knowledge (info) and ideas (thoughts) = broadening gun acumen for each individual. In the process, we (each) should be conducting ourselves in a respectful manner to "everyone" and their ideas, no matter the subject or our individual opinions.

In my humble (but very accurate) opinion, the ultimate goal of each thread, and of THR in general, should be "enjoyment" by all.:)

Gun Master
January 23, 2014, 06:25 PM
I would appeal to the other .32 aficionados not to let this thread be derailed by Caliber Bullies. I have seen this happen over and over and over and will not participate in the "mine is bigger and better" contest. I have my data and my opinions and allow others to have theirs without contest.

Please, Gentlemen...do not engage the Bullies that are now sure to flock to this thread as they always do. We are having fun and learning, sharing, and other good things.

Just proceed as usual...nothing to see here. Move along...move along... :)

VooDoo
See above post which is # 125.

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 07:56 PM
My apologies for my part, gentlemen!

Anybody wanna go out and poke some holes in things weekend after next? I'm game to try a .32 if someone has one!

;)

larryh1108
January 23, 2014, 08:08 PM
Where on the east coast are you?
You never know who is close to you!

Vodoun da Vinci
January 23, 2014, 08:36 PM
I'd let cha shoot mine anyday...:D

I'm a pusher of .32 ACP and not only like to shoot it and develop for it but try to keep as much interest as I can - the round has not been around all this time because it is not worth shooting.

I'm always having people checking me out at the range especially when my Wife and I are mentoring other couples to learn to protect themselves and to take it seriously. Our .32 Colts always draw a crowd or at least folks who find it very cool that we are shooting pistols that are pushing 100 years old.

And the targets have not a chance. :cool: People have opinions and a lot of it is based on what they "have heard" and a lot of what we hear is biased. People want the latest greatest and they also always wanna be where everyone is and do what everyone else does. I can't count the number of folks who got their eyes opened that 9mm is not the lowest caliber adequate for SD and that anyone who can't handle that amount of recoil is "stupid" uninformed, too lazy to practice more, or in denial that anything less is just metal masturbation.

.32 is just plain fun...like a .22 on steroids to some degree but not abusive as some teeny .380 pistols are. There is a place for .32 ACP and hopefully there will be for some time yet. I have enough brass, bullets and stuff to be shooting .32 for the nest 30 years if I live that long. .32 ACP pistols have history...from gangsters in the 20's and Generals in the 40' s and even guys like Wyatt Earp and John M. Browning himself shot and carried .32 ACP pistols.

Did you guys see this?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/06/robert-farago/gun-review-1903-colt-automatic-pistol/

Some of the video stuff is cool and I really like the review. I don't agree with everything TTAG reviews but I thought this review of a classic pistol and the caliber it shoots as classic and worthwhile. I wanna invite Destinee (as in FateofDestinee) to review a .32 ACP pistol. Maybe a Pico in .32 when they show up.

http://www.youtube.com/user/FateofDestinee

VooDoo

RetiredUSNChief
January 23, 2014, 09:01 PM
I call upstate SC home, but I work in the Hampton Roads, VA area.

One upshot of this is I can check out a TON of stores for ammo between SC and VA!

;)

Hurryin' Hoosier
January 23, 2014, 11:17 PM
I might get to go to the range again sometime between now and the 4th of July. Al Gore's "global warming" is about to wear me - and the furnace - out!

snooperman
January 24, 2014, 08:46 AM
Old Fuff, thanks for the extra info on target 32ACP matches. My book on target pistols also supports your info as well on the use of the 32 ACP and 32 long in European matches. In Switzerland and Germany , I think they are still using the wadcutter bullet in their matches today.

snooperman
January 24, 2014, 09:01 AM
I would like a Glock 42 size gun with a double stack magazine in 32 ACP. I always like it when my brother comes over to shoot at my place with his Browning 32. What a fun gun that is to shoot.

Old Fuff
January 24, 2014, 03:24 PM
I think they are still using the wadcutter bullet in their matches today.

In .32 S&W Long cartridges, yes. In 7.65mm (.32) pistols regular ball ammunition is more likely the rule. The reason for all this is that pistols chambered in their version of the .32 ACP is by European standards well distributed, and the authorities are more likely to issue the necessary licensing if you put down "target shooting" for a reason. :evil:

Also the mid to large sized pistols are often very accurate, and one can go home at the end of the day and not have their hand swollen to 3 times regular size by pounding recoil.

And while these guns are seldom called on to provide self-defense duty, it would seem that European and other goblins around the world haven’t heard that it’s inadequate and thus do not invite being shot at.

bikerdoc
January 25, 2014, 02:37 PM
Grandpa carried a 32 all day, every day and stuck it under his pillow at night. He was good with it and king of shot placement at all the informal family shoots. Really embarrassed my 1911 toting uncles.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 25, 2014, 05:47 PM
Yeah...the Colt 1903 in the pix I posted is 96 years old and has traveled in the pocket and around the farm with 3 generations of my inlaws kin. 3 generations have been served by this gun in this caliber. When I inherited it, it came with quite a few partial boxes of .32 ammunition and at least one box was so old it was falling apart. Still, all the rounds in it went bang the first time I tested it.

And it's not like the gun was never shot or treated as a Safe Queen as you can tell by the picture. This gun has been used pretty hard. It's still a "go to" gun in my house now and sits in a hidden spot near a door where it can be used if needed as a BUG or slipped into a pocket when stuff goes bump in the night. The trusty 12 gauge is the primary home defense weapon and backed by 9mm Beretta Storm and Glock 26 but this gun, 96 years old and proven in that role, still stands ready and is fully functional and accurate.

I hope I can fulfill my mission when I'm 96. :) :cool:

VooDoo

Master Blaster
January 25, 2014, 08:22 PM
I can assure you that rim lock is no myth. I have had rim lock twice in a kel tec with strong mag. springs. I've never tried hp in my other .32's so I can't comment, but I think it's possible with any .32 with a shorter bullet.

[/QUOTE]


Same here I experienced it with my p32 also in practice sessions with jhp ammo, and yes I carefully loaded the magazines keeping one rim in front of the previous one. Rim lock on a semirimmed cartridge is a real reliability issue with .32acp.

SharpsDressedMan
January 25, 2014, 08:50 PM
I thought we discussed in another thread that rimlock seemed to happen frequently in the Kel-Tec, but rarely happened in other .32 guns. Something to do with the magazines?

Deltaboy
January 25, 2014, 08:57 PM
The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

toivo
January 25, 2014, 09:11 PM
The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.
I think that has been discussed before some months back. The consensus was that it's such a labor-intensive design to produce that the price would be prohibitively high, especially for a gun that has a limited audience to begin with.

Don't get me wrong -- I have one and I love it. But I think modern-day .32 lovers will either have to find an oldie or make do with a Bersa or a CZ.

torqem
January 25, 2014, 09:14 PM
dunno where he gets his numbers. .32 silvertip has a whole 80 ft lbs from a Seecamp.:-)I tend to agree, tho, that the 380 is too feeble, by a pretty large stretch.

Vodoun da Vinci
January 25, 2014, 09:16 PM
The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

...Don't get me started on that. :uhoh:

I wanna make a run of Model M's in stainless. Working on it but don't hold yer breath. The hangup is not making the parts....there is a machine shop in the family and a number of engineers and we have it all figured out. The problem is in licensing the "Intellectual Property" of the venture because we are convinced that the minute we invest in making 250 pistols some major manufacturer will figure out that it's a lucrative possibility and gear up and start producing them for a fraction of the price and kill the possibility of recovering start up costs.

Maybe even Colt...quite possibly someone like Springfield Armory or a custom maker of 1911's would figure out that if they can make 1911 clones with a tweak here and there making Model M's would be a tweak of the wrist.

The patents, like the 1911, are years expired. Anyone with the will and machinery to do it could do it tomorrow. It's just that no one has thought of it....when I asked about it with some custom makers they said it'd be too expensive to make a one off and that there wouldn't be any demand or enough to recover tooling up. They said the same thing about a Glock .380 single stack.

No one will buy that....Now that there is concealed carry in all sates there are gonna be millions of folks who want to carry but cannot handle/hide larger pistols in larger calibers. A modern Model M in stainless or even with a polymer frame would sell thousands of copies in my opinion.

VooDoo

Old Fuff
January 25, 2014, 09:18 PM
The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

That's easy to say, but not so easy too do.

In Browning's day, the highest quality guns (and Cot was a top quality maker) had parts that were machined from steel forgings. The resulting guns were great, but this sort of construction isn't always compatible with the kind of technogies that are necessary today because of manufacturing economics.

So first of all, manufacturers now are generally not set up to make guns the way they used to, and if they did so the resulting gun might cost as much or more then an excellent or like-new original.

And many potential buyers might insist that the hammer be at rest and not cocked while the pistol was being carried, and if necessary fired with a long double-action style trigger.

Personally I would be delighted if someone made a high quality clone of the 1903/08 Pocket Model, but any market study that Colt (or whoever) had made would tell them that the idea wouldn't work.

gazpacho
January 25, 2014, 10:47 PM
I also thoroughly enjoy 32acp. I have a bunch of Keltec P32s. My CZ83 ihas precious little recoil. I bought a Manhurin PP for my wife. My only true safe queen is an HK4.

BruiseLee
January 26, 2014, 11:24 PM
I've owned a Beretta Tomcat for years, and never experienced a malfunction due to rim lock. Even with my 10 round mag. I do take care in loading the mags, though.

C0untZer0
March 16, 2014, 11:30 AM
I have several 32 revolvers and one 32 pistol that I enjoy shooting. My little Seecamp is a real Jewel. As to its power, one has to remember that one Gavrilo Princip a Serb, killed Arch duke Ferdinand and his wife at 10:30AM and both died. He was shot once in the neck and slumped over and died quickly, she was shot in the abdomen and died a few minutes later. Two shots and 2 killed at 9 feet distance. Shot placement is more important in pistols than the caliber.
- snooperman -

Princip used an FN Model 1910 to kill Arch Duke Ferdinand and Princess Sophie of Hohenberg, but it was actually chambered in 9mm Kurz (380 AUTO).

Richard Belfield in his book "The Assassination Business: A History of State-Sponsored Murder" states that the pistol was .32 and that is what is referenced in the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria

Princip's weapon was the Browning .32 ACP cartridge, a relatively low-power round, and a pocket-sized FN model 1910 pistol

But Thomas Ilming of the Museum of Military History in Vienna says, in response to that exact question:

Dear Sir! The caliber of the pistol which was used to kill Archduke Franz Ferdinand is 9mm kurz. I hope this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions. Best regards Mit freundlichen GrüßenIng. Mag. Thomas Ilming Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik) Heeresgeschichtliches Museum A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt

The actual pistol which was used to kill the Archduke and his wife, is on display at the Museum of Military History in Vienna, so I think Thomas Ilming would know.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/austria/1465206/Found-the-gun-that-shook-the-world.html

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