Glock 20 for grizzlies?


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Takem406
January 16, 2014, 12:26 PM
Spent my whole life in Western Montana and have yet to tag an elk. This fall my buddy and I are planning on a week long archery hunt on horse back.

I've carried mace before and I believe in it. However being that far back for that long I'd like to have a firearm as well.

I've studied the suited calibers for grizzlies and know that you don't want just any caliber.

I was thinking 44 but I'm not a fan of revolvers. It just wouldn't get that much range time. Then if I did do this I'd hate to get a short barreled one that wouldn't be suited for deer hunting.

That leaves me to with the 10mm.
I'm a huge Glock fan. I currently have three and counting. I carry one daily.
I know Double Tap loads hot solids for 10mm that are Glock safe and pack a big punch. But are they hot enough for grizzlies smaller Rocky Mountain grizzlies? Not going to Alaska any time soon...

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Noah
January 16, 2014, 01:19 PM
I don't know enough about the penetration required to put down a grizzly to really offer a good opinion, but a really hot FMJ 10 MM is as hot as a good .357 Magnum. 15 rounds of 10mm in a semi auto is IMO the most lethal handgun on the general market.

For real power and penetration, a rifle kicks butt. My first suggestion for a Grizzly defensive gun? Bear spray and a Chinese Mosin Carbine with the forward wood cut off the stock so it resembles a modern rifle stock. 5 or 6 pounds, short, recoil is totally manageable and it is CHEAP but will kill a bear for sure. My brother put together 2 rifles like this. Super handy. But of course the Glock is more versatile and easier to carry.

For a bear, shot placement under crazy stress is absolute king.

RX-79G
January 16, 2014, 01:25 PM
I think it is asking a lot of 10mm, or .357. Shooting a huge animal multiple times with bullets that don't do enough damage isn't necessarily a replacement for a few bone crushing rounds. Get a .44 Mag anything or .45LC Blackhawk with bear loads.

Another light, useful rifle choice is a Marlin lever action or a short barrel shotgun with slugs.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 16, 2014, 01:30 PM
Desert Eagle 44mag may be an option. What about those mares leg, can they handle hot loads.

Queen_of_Thunder
January 16, 2014, 01:31 PM
For shotgun Mossberg has a SD overunder on the market. Its got an 18 inch barrel I believe.

wow6599
January 16, 2014, 01:36 PM
After Fred Fuller posted this link the other day, I don't think I would even be content with a .44 Mag. http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

If it has to be a handgun, the biggest you got. I would use "bear spray" before a G20 or 44 Mag.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=739817&highlight=bears

horsemen61
January 16, 2014, 01:40 PM
I'd bet in the glock 20 if I were you if you can get some of that hot ammo like say a 200 grain wlfn bullet doing day 1200 Fps and you have 15 of them well keep pulling the trigger

powder
January 16, 2014, 02:50 PM
Handgun for grizzlies? Hmm, .44 Mag and up, .454, .460?

20 years ago I saw a monster grizz in central Montana, just outside of Helena, I imagine if he's still around he aint gotten smaller or nicer.

readyeddy
January 16, 2014, 03:07 PM
If on foot, the Glock 20 should strike a balance between weight and firepower for bear defense. But since you're on horseback, why not carry a lever rifle in .45-70?

berettashotgun
January 16, 2014, 04:50 PM
Horseback hunting says it all, >.284 cal.rifle or shotgun is always better than a pistol . Shotgun with tungsten slugs would be my first choice; lead slugs my second. But that's just me.
Get a sidearm just in case, 10mm isn't the worst choice, but darn sure ain't the best IMHO.

Godsgunman
January 16, 2014, 05:05 PM
A good Ol AK will do the trick :p
Seriously probably a shotty with slugs plus at very least .357mag or bigger. Just me though.

Hurryin' Hoosier
January 16, 2014, 05:08 PM
A Glock for a grizzly would be fine, but only if he pays cash. :p

jmr40
January 16, 2014, 07:42 PM
If you trust a 4" 44 mag to get the job done, you don't give up much with a 10mm. Truthfully neither are ideal and you'll have to get lucky either way, but a Glock gives you 16 chances to get lucky instead of 6.

People mistakenly believe the 44's are much better. From 8" barrels they are, but who carries an 8" revolver? I'd just as soon carry a rifle. The published numbers you see from magnum revolvers are all from 8" guns. When shot from 3-4" guns expect 300-500fps less velocity

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

A 10mm or any other semi pistol lists published numbers from 4.5" barrels, which is what people actually carry.

I have carried my Glock 20 in GA, TN and NC around black bear quite often. It has allowed me to sleep peacefully in Yellowstone as well. For the big coastal brown bear, I'd probably trust nothing less than a rifle, but would still carry the Glock over a 4" or shorter barreled 44.

My Glock 20 is 3/4 lb lighter and 1" shorter than the 44 mag. I get 1300 fps with 200 gr hardcast bullets. The 44 will only get 1150 fps with 240 gr bullets. Not that great of an advantage really.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/001-11.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/jmr40/media/001-11.jpg.html)

Thompsoncustom
January 16, 2014, 08:34 PM
From ballistics by the inch

44 Mag Results in fps

Left to right

Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP Cor Bon 225 gr. DPX Federal 240 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP Speer 200 gr. Gold Dot Short-bbl HP
18" 1558 1540 1643 1341
17" 1590 1563 1629 1354
16" 1552 1532 1619 1377
15" 1564 1550 1645 1361
14" 1541 1506 1623 1358
13" 1549 1495 1608 1341
12" 1514 1474 1579 1353
11" 1497 1472 1584 1315
10" 1501 1467 1571 1319
9" 1438 1447 1535 1278
8" 1433 1387 1497 1282
7" 1385 1385 1462 1251
6" 1321 1320 1380 1197
5" 1270 1301 1367 1170
4" 1150 1250 1251 1099
3" 1015 1095 1095 964
2" 952 951 944 833

460 Rowland Results in fps

Cor Bon Hunter 230 gr. JHP
18" 1356
17" 1366
16" 1354
15" 1352
14" 1342
13" 1344
12" 1314
11" 1293
10" 1335
9" 1303
8" 1299
7" 1273
6" 1261
5" 1208
4" 1124
3" 1082
2" 974

10mm Results in fps

Cor Bon 135 gr. Pow'R Ball Cor Bon 135 gr. JHP Cor Bon 150 gr. JHP Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP Cor Bon 155 gr. DPX Federal 180 gr. Hydra-Shok Buffalo Bore 180gr. JHC Winchester 175 gr. Silvertip Hornady 200 gr. XTP
18" 1640 1710 1567 1447 1319 1232 1573 1370 1260
17" 1626 1711 1559 1459 1352 1209 1564 1362 1243
16" 1643 1701 1570 1441 1349 1220 1573 1384 1257
15" 1620 1662 1574 1441 1339 1204 1555 1357 1267
14" 1639 1691 1569 1439 1355 1222 1583 1397 1280
13" 1634 1679 1547 1437 1354 1223 1586 1365 1269
12" 1615 1653 1519 1410 1307 1195 1562 1321 1267
11" 1600 1643 1521 1401 1329 1182 1543 1312 1225
10" 1580 1601 1494 1400 1333 1171 1509 1348 1234
9" 1568 1594 1489 1378 1306 1179 1508 1304 1206
8" 1533 1575 1466 1349 1294 1146 1482 1276 1190
7" 1508 1575 1446 1331 1268 1129 1453 1269 1184
6" 1432 1504 1426 1307 1254 1093 1428 1228 1174
5" 1418 1411 1382 1260 1244 1069 1399 1225 1133
4" 1328 1322 1301 1209 1183 1013 1338 1149 1077
3" 1248 1255 1218 1157 1116 927 1250 1089 1032
2" 1083 1071 1020 976 1014 841 1111 950 912

Either a glock in 10mm or 460 rowland will work fine. Getting some ammo from underwood and you'll be good to go.

Ohen Cepel
January 16, 2014, 08:43 PM
I think the Glock 10mm is a great woods gun. Not sure I would take it looking for grizzlies, but you're not looking for them either.

I would take the Glock, look into the extended barrel to get a bit more out of it, and keep a rifle on the horse. I like 45-70.

15rds of 10mm is a lot of energy in a handgun! Again, not saying I would take it grizzly hunting but neither is the OP.

Dr. Sandman
January 16, 2014, 08:56 PM
+1 for pump action shotgun with slugs

Takem406
January 16, 2014, 10:03 PM
I'd rather carry a 45-70 or a 450 Marlin! I'd definitely get the long slide model. I think Lone Wolf actually makes a "bear Glock". That's just it. More than likely I'd never see a bear. I'll check on Double Tap too.

Nom de Forum
January 16, 2014, 10:31 PM
Spent my whole life in Western Montana and have yet to tag an elk. This fall my buddy and I are planning on a week long archery hunt on horse back.

I've carried mace before and I believe in it. However being that far back for that long I'd like to have a firearm as well.

I've studied the suited calibers for grizzlies and know that you don't want just any caliber.

I was thinking 44 but I'm not a fan of revolvers. It just wouldn't get that much range time. Then if I did do this I'd hate to get a short barreled one that wouldn't be suited for deer hunting.

That leaves me to with the 10mm.
I'm a huge Glock fan. I currently have three and counting. I carry one daily.
I know Double Tap loads hot solids for 10mm that are Glock safe and pack a big punch. But are they hot enough for grizzlies smaller Rocky Mountain grizzlies? Not going to Alaska any time soon...

Disclaimer:

I have never hunted bear or been attacked by a bear, and probably for most of the people posting to this thread the same is true. Sooooo, keep that in mind and think about asking for opinions in forums more likely to have members who have hunted or been attacked by bears as they may give you better insights on what you can expect from the bear and yourself.

My Book and Buddy knowledge:

Can we assume it is legal in Montana for you to carry a Firearm on an Archery Hunt?

Can we assume you have no interest in carrying a rifle or shotgun?

Can we assume you realize that there are no "smaller" Grizzlies only larger Grizzlies?

If the answer is yes to the above questions:

Start with the pepper spray, this is what the State of Alaska recommends because your odds of surviving are greater than starting with a pistol.
IF, the spray is ineffective in stopping a charging bear you will most likely be in contact distance so fast you will not get many if any shots off. However, if you have icewater for blood and exceptional pistol shooting skills you may be able to fire before the pain begins. If this is you then you are not asking too much from the 10mm with heavy HC loads because they will penetrate the skull and you are familiar with the Glock. If this is not you then a .40+ caliber revolver loaded with heavy HC that will not malfunction when pressed between you and the bear is a much better choice. Expect to die and be happy when you are only maimed. Good Luck.

Nom de Forum
January 16, 2014, 10:45 PM
Spent my whole life in Western Montana and have yet to tag an elk. This fall my buddy and I are planning on a week long archery hunt on horse back.

I've carried mace before and I believe in it. However being that far back for that long I'd like to have a firearm as well.

I've studied the suited calibers for grizzlies and know that you don't want just any caliber.

I was thinking 44 but I'm not a fan of revolvers. It just wouldn't get that much range time. Then if I did do this I'd hate to get a short barreled one that wouldn't be suited for deer hunting.

That leaves me to with the 10mm.
I'm a huge Glock fan. I currently have three and counting. I carry one daily.
I know Double Tap loads hot solids for 10mm that are Glock safe and pack a big punch. But are they hot enough for grizzlies smaller Rocky Mountain grizzlies? Not going to Alaska any time soon...

Disclaimer:

I have never hunted bear or been attacked by a bear, and probably for most of the people posting to this thread the same is true. Sooooo, keep that in mind and think about asking for opinions in forums more likely to have members who have hunted or been attacked by bears as they may give you better insights on what you can expect from the bear and yourself.

My Book and Buddy knowledge:

Can we assume it is legal in Montana for you to carry a Firearm on an Archery Hunt?

Can we assume you have no interest in carrying a rifle or shotgun?

Can we assume you realize that there are no "smaller" Grizzlies only larger Grizzlies?

If the answer is yes to the above questions:

Start with the pepper spray, this is what the State of Alaska recommends because your odds of surviving are greater than starting with a pistol.
IF, the spray is ineffective in stopping a charging bear you will most likely be in contact distance so fast you will not get many if any shots off. However, if you have icewater for blood and exceptional pistol shooting skills you may be able to fire before the pain begins. If this is you then you are not asking too much from the 10mm with heavy HC loads because they will penetrate the skull and you are familiar with the Glock. If this is not you then a .40+ caliber revolver loaded with heavy HC that will not malfunction when pressed between you and the bear is a much better choice. Expect to die and be happy when you are only maimed. Good Luck.

Takem406
January 16, 2014, 11:02 PM
Yep, we can carry a side arm during archery season.
I would love to tote a 450 Marlin with heavy loads however with 50 pounds in a pack and a bow in my hand it's not practical.

I think another reason people get into tough spots with bears is that they aren't aware of their surroundings.

Mace is the better bet. But if I were to carry a firearm as well...

I found this load from Double Tap...
Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1105fps / 542 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1240fps
Then with a longslide you'd get a touch more but not much.

Nom de Forum
January 16, 2014, 11:23 PM
Yep, we can carry a side arm during archery season.
I would love to tote a 450 Marlin with heavy loads however with 50 pounds in a pack and a bow in my hand it's not practical.

I think another reason people get into tough spots with bears is that they aren't aware of their surroundings.

Mace is the better bet. But if I were to carry a firearm as well...

I found this load from Double Tap...
Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1105fps / 542 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1240fps
Then with a longslide you'd get a touch more but not much.

I've got a G20. I replaced the stock barrel with a 6" KKM that has conventional rifling and slightly better MV. Unless you really want a long slide , save the $ and just get the barrel. You don't have to go with KKM as there are other makers. The 200 and heavier grain hardcast from various sources are you best choice in my opinion. In my gun they produce impressive penetration in the various junk I have shot. I live in a very large city, and only carry the 10mm out in the wilderness. No grizzlies here but we have a few bears, a few cougars, and many of the most dangerous predators. The G20 is perfect for that environment. You should also buy a 9X25 barrel just to see the look on people's faces when you fire it at an indoor range, it is hilarious!;)

newfalguy101
January 16, 2014, 11:34 PM
Just a thought, but, it wouldnt hurt to take a look at the hunting regs to confirm its even legal to have a firearm with you on an archery hunt

Takem406
January 16, 2014, 11:55 PM
Just a thought, but, it wouldnt hurt to take a look at the hunting regs to confirm its even legal to have a firearm with you on an archery hunt

Yep, as long as I'm not taking the big game with the handgun DURING archery season. Unless it's fall black bear then I could shoot my black bear with it while wearing orange. Either way to hunt black bears you need orange no matter the weapon used.
I know some states are stupid about this. Like Arkansas. I was going to do a Farrel hog hunt there last year which is all good. However in the summer you can only use the weapons allowed for whatever season might be open. Which I believe was squirrel...

Takem406
January 16, 2014, 11:57 PM
Yep, as long as I'm not taking the big game with the handgun DURING archery season. Unless it's fall black bear then I could shoot my black bear with it while wearing orange. Either way to hunt black bears you need orange no matter the weapon used.
I know some states are stupid about this. Like Arkansas. I was going to do a Farrel hog hunt there last year which is all good. However in the summer you can only use the weapons allowed for whatever season might be open. Which I believe was squirrel...

A barrel would be cheaper. Honestly I just want a G20, and if I could have another way to justify it to the budgeting officer of the household... I'd really like to deer hunt with it.

BlackAgnes
January 16, 2014, 11:58 PM
Every video I've seen of a charging or running bear shows the animal bouncing around, slewing left and right, and with its head going up and down.

I wonder how many times I could hit it in a vital location under stress.

Many years ago, as a town cop, I had to shoot a large, vicious German Shepherd (he was a known biter) which charged me off a porch. I was carrying a Colt Combat Commander in .45 and I emptied it--8 rounds. He dropped (not quite dead) about 3 feet away from me.

I hit him twice, once in the front paw and once, thank God, through his mouth, a lucky shot. And I considered myself a pretty good pistolero then. Humbling.

.44s, .45s, and 500s hold 5 or 6 chances, and you won't be reloading.

The Glock 20 holds, what?, 17 or 18 rounds? Shooting fast, all could probably be delivered in 4 or 5 seconds and just maybe, one would hit something important.

I think I'd be better served with the Glock, providing I was using penetrating bullets.

Just thinkin' out loud here...


Tim

PabloJ
January 17, 2014, 03:54 AM
Spent my whole life in Western Montana and have yet to tag an elk. This fall my buddy and I are planning on a week long archery hunt on horse back.

I've carried mace before and I believe in it. However being that far back for that long I'd like to have a firearm as well.

I've studied the suited calibers for grizzlies and know that you don't want just any caliber.

I was thinking 44 but I'm not a fan of revolvers. It just wouldn't get that much range time. Then if I did do this I'd hate to get a short barreled one that wouldn't be suited for deer hunting.

That leaves me to with the 10mm.
I'm a huge Glock fan. I currently have three and counting. I carry one daily.
I know Double Tap loads hot solids for 10mm that are Glock safe and pack a big punch. But are they hot enough for grizzlies smaller Rocky Mountain grizzlies? Not going to Alaska any time soon...
Make sure you have a will and funeral arrangements before heading into wilderness in case you meet angry Griz while carrying G20.

Thompsoncustom
January 17, 2014, 06:45 AM
Don't waste your time with Double Taps Ammo, it always falls short of the listed FPS some times by a country mile.

Underwood ammo is some of the hottest stuff out there if not the best.
Here's some more numbers for you.

Technical Information

Caliber: 10mm Auto
Bullet Weight: 220 Grains
Bullet Style: Hardcast Flat Nose
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps
Muzzle Energy: 703 ft. lbs.

Technical Information

Caliber: 460 Rowland
Bullet Weight: 230 Grains
Bullet Style: Speer Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1001 ft. lbs

Technical Information

Caliber: 460 Rowland
Bullet Weight: 255 Grains
Bullet Style: Hard Cast Flat Nose
Case Type: Brass

Ballistics Information:

Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 957 ft. lbs.

You could always get the new Glock 41 and convert it to a 460 Rowland long slide.

hentown
January 17, 2014, 08:00 AM
You could always get the new Glock 41 and convert it to a 460 Rowland long slide.
__________________

Why the long slide? Why not just a long barrel, if velocity is the objective?

Manny
January 17, 2014, 09:30 AM
One of the Nordic countries, I believe the Danes, issues Glock 20's for service in to members of the military who patrol their far north frontier. The gun is intended for defense against polar bears who are present in the area covered.

Having 15+1 of hot 10mm loads in a light weight, easy to carry, rugged and reliable Glock strikes me as a decent protective measure. Especially since the OP is a seasoned Glock shooter it seems an appropriate and reasonable selection for the job at hand.

Owlnmole
January 17, 2014, 11:04 AM
If you trust a 4" 44 mag to get the job done, you don't give up much with a 10mm. Truthfully neither are ideal and you'll have to get lucky either way, but a Glock gives you 16 chances to get lucky instead of 6.

People mistakenly believe the 44's are much better. From 8" barrels they are, but who carries an 8" revolver? I'd just as soon carry a rifle. The published numbers you see from magnum revolvers are all from 8" guns. When shot from 3-4" guns expect 300-500fps less velocity

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44mag.html

A 10mm or any other semi pistol lists published numbers from 4.5" barrels, which is what people actually carry.

I have carried my Glock 20 in GA, TN and NC around black bear quite often. It has allowed me to sleep peacefully in Yellowstone as well. For the big coastal brown bear, I'd probably trust nothing less than a rifle, but would still carry the Glock over a 4" or shorter barreled 44.

My Glock 20 is 3/4 lb lighter and 1" shorter than the 44 mag. I get 1300 fps with 200 gr hardcast bullets. The 44 will only get 1150 fps with 240 gr bullets. Not that great of an advantage really.

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m513/jmr40/001-11.jpg (http://s1129.photobucket.com/user/jmr40/media/001-11.jpg.html)

If those numbers are right, you are getting about 6% MORE energy from the Glock than the .44 Mag.

You might also want to take a look at Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo. They list their "Heavy 10mm Ammo" with 220 gr. hard cast, lead flat nose, gas checked bullet at 1140 fps measured from a Glock Model 20 4.6 inch barrel. That should penetrate enough to ruin an elephant's day.

SDGlock23
January 17, 2014, 11:14 AM
Well if it was just a Glock I could have, I choose either my Gen4 20 or Gen4 21.

G20 would use 200gr WFNGC hardcast handloads running 1,315 fps from my 4.6" KKM (768 ft-lbs with 16rds on tap)

G21 would use either .45 Super 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast doing 1,200 fps from 5" KKM or a

.45 Super handload loaded with Beartooth 300gr LFNGC hardcast doing 1,150 fps from my 5" comped KKM (881 ft-lbs w/300gr bullet with 14rds of it tap)

wild cat mccane
January 17, 2014, 07:18 PM
Glad you say bear spray. It's more effective and has great spread.

A bear runs 2x's faster than a fast person.

Here is a bear.... up a tree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jRTrRxamxQ

You aren't getting off 16 rounds if it's truly self defense.

xXxplosive
January 17, 2014, 07:29 PM
JMO............but, with 800 lbs of teeth breathing down my neck, I'd opt for a revolver in a large caliber .44 Mag. without a doubt. Don't even want to think about a FTF with an auto.

PabloJ
January 17, 2014, 10:39 PM
Glad you say bear spray. It's more effective and has great spread.

A bear runs 2x's faster than a fast person.

Here is a bear.... up a tree:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jRTrRxamxQ

You aren't getting off 16 rounds if it's truly self defense.
That plus playing dead in fetal position offers good chance of survival. There might be time for couple of quick shots, but wounding enraged Griz offers ZERO chance of survival.:rolleyes:

Pointshoot
January 17, 2014, 10:40 PM
Takem406: "A barrel would be cheaper. Honestly I just want a G20, and if I could have another way to justify it to the budgeting officer of the household... I'd really like to deer hunt with it."

Ah . . . I suspected it was really about something like that. Unless your time in Montana has been limited to staying in Missoula, you likely know that a 357 mag wouldn't be considered optimum for griz. That's about what a 10mm offers you. I like the 10mm and like the Glock. Got a couple of the 20sf versions and a 1911 that shoots 10mm. When up in the mountains in the Pac NW in black bear/cougar country I often carry the Glock 10mm. When in griz country over in Montana or Idaho I carry a 44 mag or heavy loaded 45 LC double action revolver. But I suppose it isn't Impossible that a Glock 10mm might help in a hairy situation in your neck of the woods. . . . . there, you've got your justification now. Have fun !

tarosean
January 18, 2014, 12:11 AM
You shoot any gun off a horses back you better pray that it has been desensitized to gun fire.. Or you will be served up to that bear in a battered bruised heap... Your gun? might land a few hundred feet from ya. Good Luck...

Kayaker 1960
January 18, 2014, 12:12 AM
A few years ago in Glacier N.P. my wife and I ran into a smallish, 600 lb griz while hiking. The encounter lasted all of maybe 1.5 seconds. The bear ran the other way. If he'd come at me as fast as he'd run off I doubt if I could have even gotten my gun out of my holster. The wind was blowing in our faces, bear spray would have been nearly useless. I don't think having 15 of 50 rounds would be any more useful than 6. They are very fast.

Pointshoot
January 18, 2014, 06:06 AM
I've seen them in the wild in Alaska and in Montana. But they were off in the distance and no threat. They can cover a lot of ground quickly. I've also seen them up close in zoos & recall two youthful bears playing and wrestling with each other with mock bites, etc. Even those young bears were powerful & fast. It was obvious to me that you'd likely have to be very lucky with a handgun to protect yourself if they were motivated to get you. But low chance is better than no chance - so I do carry pepper spray & a revolver when in griz country. And, the Marlin 45-70 is close.

carbuncle
January 18, 2014, 07:22 AM
All I can offer is that something like 75% of the 10mm glocks are sold in AK. Make of that what you will.

Thompsoncustom
January 18, 2014, 12:02 PM
Why the long slide? Why not just a long barrel, if velocity is the objective?

Distance between sights is all

danez71
January 18, 2014, 12:03 PM
Keep in mind.....

With grizzly, realistically, you have a better chance of scaring it away with a 22lr before it attacks than killing it with any hand gun if the attack is already in motion.

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 12:15 PM
All I can offer is that something like 75% of the 10mm glocks are sold in AK. Make of that what you will.

I will take your word for it that the 75% sales figure is accurate. I wonder if this is because the people buying them are primarily worried about the most dangerous predator in heavy clothing and also want something that is the bare (pun intended :D) minimum for the very rare bear protection situation? The Danes do indeed issue them for defense against Polar Bears in the polar territories but I think among other considerations they plan to have two or more people in team of workers unloading on a bear.

PabloJ
January 18, 2014, 12:33 PM
I will take your word for it that the 75% sales figure is accurate. I wonder if this is because the people buying them are primarily worried about the most dangerous predator in heavy clothing and also want something that is the bare (pun intended :D) minimum for the very rare bear protection situation? The Danes do indeed issue them for defense against Polar Bears in the polar territories but I think among other considerations they plan to have two or more people in team of workers unloading on a bear.
Probably because people wear heavy clothing though for that purpose it's no better than .45ACP+P. As they say faith moves mounds of inventory.

IdahoSkies
January 18, 2014, 12:46 PM
As my handle says, I'm from your neck of the woods so to speak. I carry a Glock 29 as my backpacking firearm. IMO The 10mm is about the best package you can get for an autopistol round. And that allows you more rounds for less weight and size.

Any bear encounter that results in contact between you and a bear will be fast, brutal, and damaging to you no matter what happens. Bear spray is very effective, but has some limitations on how you use it. Many bears don't stop after hit with a high power rifle round. Pistol round, even a 10 is like spitting in the wind. That said, it is probably the best round for what you are looking at.

I know a lot of people in bear country carry one. I carry mine and pray it never leaves my holster. That's all I can say.

But if you are looking for an excuse for a G20, :) Go for it. I'm not a glock guy, but the Glock frame handles a 10mm amazingly well. And it really is a pleasure to shoot. Even at full house loads.

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 12:52 PM
Probably because people wear heavy clothing though for that purpose it's no better than .45ACP+P. As they say faith moves mounds of inventory.

I agree about the .45ACP and the same can be said for an appropriate 9mm. Faith and Fad definitely sell more guns than Facts and Function.

PabloJ
January 18, 2014, 02:00 PM
I agree about the .45ACP and the same can be said for an appropriate 9mm. Faith and Fad definitely sell more guns than Facts and Function.
For expert handgun shot in long slide "G40" with adjustable rear sight and factory mount for optical device this thing has something to offer. Too bad such Glock is figment of some peoples imagination. I mean the G20 is already large gun so couple extra inches of barrel and slide would only be of benefit to some of us. Since they have G21 as excellent service firearm the G20 could be nixed in favor of G40.

jeff-10
January 18, 2014, 02:25 PM
I believe the Danish Sirius Patrol (Denmark's Extreme Cold Weather Special Forces) carries Glock 20's in case they encounter polar bears in the arctic. Are grizzlies that much different than polar bears? Also, at the 2014 shot show Federal has released new full power 10mm hunting ammo. You can consider that.

PabloJ
January 18, 2014, 02:38 PM
I believe the Danish Sirius Patrol (Denmark's Extreme Cold Weather Special Forces) carries Glock 20's in case they encounter polar bears in the arctic. Are grizzlies that much different than polar bears? Also, at the 2014 shot show Federal has released new full power 10mm hunting ammo. You can consider that.
I think 106th Guards Airborne Division could take that entire country in few days. You know, unlike what Hitler did with his army w/o a shot being heard.

Nom de Forum
January 18, 2014, 02:41 PM
I think 106th Guards Airborne Division could take that entire country in few days. You know, unlike what Hitler did with his army w/o a shot being heard.
Not cool.

PabloJ
January 18, 2014, 02:49 PM
Not cool.
Sorry, I didn't know Denmark had special forces.

Pointshoot
January 18, 2014, 11:10 PM
Just to play along a little . . . there are 460 Rowland conversions for various 45ACP platforms including the Glock, XD, and 1911. That'll get you into 44 mag velocities. With a conversion barrel and the right mags you could also shoot 10mm out of a Glock 21 factory chambered in 45acp. Years back I did some shooting of the 45 Super, but have no experience with the 460 Rowland. I wonder about pushing jacketed bullets designed for the 45acp to velocities where they might fail out of the Rowland. There are some cast lead factory loads for the 460 too, though.

Cee Zee
January 18, 2014, 11:48 PM
From 8" barrels they are, but who carries an 8" revolver?

I don't. I carry an 8 3/8" revolver. It's a .44 mag. As for that ballistics table where are the heavy .44 mag loads? The heaviest load listed was a 240 gr. cartridge. What about the real .44 mag rounds like this one. (http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerhead.html) That's 310 gr. of hard cast lead fired at 1200 fps from a 4" barrel. More from longer barrels. That's 990 foot/lbs. of energy from a 4" handgun. Again more from longer barrels. You're comparing hunting rounds with dangerous animal defense rounds. Big difference.

As for having 16 rounds to fire at a charging bear that's just not going to happen. If you actually manage to get off ONE round at a charging bear you should consider yourself lucky. Two is the maximum. The best reason for using a revolver is that you can fire while the bear is mauling you possibly. There's no slide on a revolver that needs to move around to load more rounds.

No handgun is ideal against a brown bear. Your best bet is a something like the .45-70 lever gun with the biggest, most powerful hard cast bullet you can find. But keep in mind that you have to be able to get your shot off and that's done faster with a handgun. BTW I can draw and first my S&W 629 and hit what I'm aiming at in about half a second. I use a cross draw holster like many cowboys used.

A shotgun is an acceptable alternative with slugs like the Brenneke Black Magic producing over 3000 ft/lbs of power at the muzzle. That's hardly a pipsqueak and certainly enough for the black bear I deal with.

But strictly for a handgun, which has it's benefits, I'd suggest a .44 mag out of the things you mentioned. Obviously a .454 would be better from what I understand.

carbuncle
January 22, 2014, 08:22 AM
Ultimately, the full-power 10mm is roughly equivalent in performance to the .357 Magnum (depending on load, of course) so the choice becomes whether you're comfortable with that against a bear.

JWH321
January 22, 2014, 08:53 AM
If you are going to use a handgun, you had best work REALLY hard on shot placement. Anything less than a perfect hit will just piss a big bear off. You may even make multiple fatal hits, but his momentum (think a small car going 40 mph) will be an issue for you. His adrenalin powered reflexes may well cause you significant harm, even if he is on the way to dying himself.

Read again the comment about not getting a dozen shots off. Those big lumbering guys lumber along at a pace you won't believe. Your best defense may well be distance, not caliber.

Jitterbug
January 22, 2014, 09:50 AM
I've been a fan of the 10mm for over 20 years and carry one all the time in the southern Rockies...200 gr. Hardcast doing 1150fsp from a 4.25" Commander or a 200 gr. XTP at the same velocity. This should be adequate to slow down medium sized black bears and Mt. Lions.

But if I'm in Moose or Grizz country I swap it out for a 4" 629 with a 280 gr. Hardcast doing 1150 fps and the wife carries the 10mm. We usually have bear spray around and depending upon the situation a 12 gauge with Brenneke's is nearby.

As much as I love my 10mm's it's really not much more gun than a .357 Mag. and I hand load for all of them except the shotgun.

15 fast shots verses 6 from a more powerful round, it's a tough call. But I think your only going to get 1 or 2 initially to stop or slow down the threat of a large and dangerous animal.

Yep, I read the Alaska Handgun Forum occasionally and the 10mm is getting more popular up there, but, I don't recall any instances of the 10mm being used as actual brown bear defense, whereas the .44 Mag., has.

98Redline
January 22, 2014, 11:36 AM
Take a wander over to some of the Alaska hunting forums and see what those guys suggest for a carry weapon in bear country. There are plenty of posts by guys who hunt up there and have had numerous bear encounters. Quite a few where they have actually had to kill the bear. The first recommendation is a medium bore rifle (375 H&H, 416 Rigby, 45/70, etc...), down from there is a 12ga with hard cast slugs (Brennekie or similar). Below that are the handguns, and those start with 460, 454 with the 44mag coming in on the very low end.

If you want to carry your 10mm go right aheard but realize a 10mm leaves you very little, if any, margin at stopping a charge. It may be a lethal hit but if it takes 2 min for the bear to die, that will be 2 minutes for you to have a nice close encounter with wounded and very pissed off bear.

Bear protection is about stopping the charge, right then. Not about lethality. You either need massive hydraulic shock (mid bore rifles) or deep penetration and hopes of a CNS hit. Your goal is to incapacitate the bear immediately. I am sorry but as good of a round as the 10mm is, it simply is not in the realm of a hot loaded 44 mag (the very bottom end of what is suitable).

You are likely to only get one shot off in a bear encounter that requires you to draw and fire, maybe 2 if you are lucky, so your extra 13 rounds of 10mm in the mag are going to be doing you no good whatsoever. Even on a good hit, the smaller caliber and lighter weight of the 10mm will not be nearly as effective as the larger and heavier (almost 40% heavier) 44mag, and like I said, the 44mag is considered barely adequate for a one shot stop on a charging bear. Add to the fact that the nose profile of something that will feed through your auto is far from the optimal nose profile for delivering the most straight line tissue damage.

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