What is this cartridge?


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Brian Olsen
January 17, 2014, 02:06 PM
The brass is 1.5" long and the bullet is a bit larger than 50 cal. I thought it was a .58 center fire but the ones I saw on line looked like the brass was straight. Notice this brass is tapered for the top 1/3. There are no markings on it anywhere. The overall length is 2". Measurements are from the top of the rim. Thanks

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LAGS
January 17, 2014, 11:18 PM
Have you tried looking it up in "Cartridges of the World" ?

Ron James
January 17, 2014, 11:28 PM
I tried, to no avail, going to need more precise measurement's Rim, Base of shell above the rim, neck,

LAGS
January 18, 2014, 01:16 AM
Most of that info can be found in the very back of the book.
They list rim diameters, thicknesses, case length, and Bullet diameters.

Radagast
January 18, 2014, 12:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577_Snider

Edit: Nope, misread OP, Snider is two inch case, not two inches overall.

SDC
January 18, 2014, 05:47 PM
There was enough variation in the factory loadings of the 577 Snider that this COULD be one of those rounds, but the OP's measurements of "about" and "a bit" aren't close enough to let us say for sure. You can get a cheap digital micrometer for $10 that will narrow down the possibilities, if you post some useful measurements.

Pete D.
January 18, 2014, 07:37 PM
Looks like a .58 Carbine cartridge.
Could be the .577 Snider as noted earlier but the Snider has a longer case.
Pete

Kp321
January 18, 2014, 08:14 PM
Looks like the legendary 70-150 cartridge that showed up on the 1890 Winchester cartridge board. Supposedly someone in the advertising department had a sense of humor and took a 12 ga brass shell and necked it to 70 caliber and put it on the board. No documented gun ever made for it, don't know about cartridge production except those on the boards.

Steel Horse Rider
January 18, 2014, 09:32 PM
Scroll down on this link: http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7590
I thought I remembered a similar cartridge when I was researching my Dutch Beaumont rifle of 1875. It appears similar to the Egyptian model. BUT, none of these are near the diameter of your round. However, I would search for cartridges in that time frame, as I rememebr there is a wide variety.....

Ron James
January 19, 2014, 10:20 PM
Hey, I know, lets play 20 questions, I'll start, is it vegetable , animal or mineral? With out all the correct measurements that is more are less what is happening!

Jim K
January 19, 2014, 11:54 PM
Is it smaller than a breadbox?

Jim

Brian Olsen
January 20, 2014, 02:25 PM
I will get some better measurements.

Scooter22
January 21, 2014, 09:17 PM
Get a pic of it next to say a 30-06 and 12ga shell. Even with the mesurements you gave we have no visual comparison to other cartridges. Someone might remember that cartridge if they have that.

Brian Olsen
January 22, 2014, 03:05 PM
Here is some additional information. Hope it helps. Thanks for the help. The shotgun shell is a 2.5 " 12ga.

Steel Horse Rider
January 22, 2014, 03:23 PM
Those dimensions would also make it a 13 mm caliber barrel if you are searching European weaponry.

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 08:39 PM
-With those dimensions, it looks close to a 56-50 Spencer CF. But it's too long. If that drawing is on 1/8" graph paper, it isn't to scale. If it is to scale, then the numbers are wrong and it is very close to the 56-50

Brian Olsen
January 22, 2014, 09:49 PM
The dimensions are good. The graph paper is engineers graph paper and each square is .2 ". I traced the cartridge but not precisely. Just something to put the measurements on.

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 10:02 PM
OK, well...scratch the 56-50 Spencer. :confused:

Jim K
January 22, 2014, 11:29 PM
The .56-50 is rimfire.

I give up; if this is a test, I flunked.

Jim

rcmodel
January 22, 2014, 11:36 PM
Me too!

I have been unable to find it in any of my books.

rc

JRH6856
January 22, 2014, 11:44 PM
The period Spencer cartrigdes are rimfires. The pic I uploaded is 56-50 Spencer Center Fire created after WWI for use in Spencers converted to centerfire after factory rimfire ammo was no longer available. The max COAL for the Spencer action was 1.7" so this mystery cartridge is a little too long for even a Spencer wlldcat. It may be a certerfire version of an older rimfire round created around the same time but for a different rifle.

How about the 50-60 Peabody. Like the Spencer, it was a rimfire, but like the Spencer, some Peabody carbines were converted to CF after WWi and CF ammo was made for them.

JRH6856
January 23, 2014, 09:01 PM
Talked to friend today who has bought and sold a lot of old BP guns over the years. Seems that when they converted the old rimfire rifles to centerfire, they often took whaterver brass case was the closed fit and loaded it for their rifle. If it was too long, they trimmed it, if it was too short, they shot it. Like he shoots 50-70 Govt. in his 50-140 Sharps because 50-140 brass can't be found.

This cartridge could be such a load for any same caliber rifle with a longer chamber.

gyvel
January 25, 2014, 02:44 AM
Very close to a 12.11x44R Norwegian/Swedish Remington M67.

JRH6856
January 25, 2014, 03:51 AM
Very close to a 12.11x44R Norwegian/Swedish Remington M67.

I can't find anything on a 12.11x44R. Do you mean the 12.7x44R? It's close but the case on that cartridge is 1.745". .245" too long. In metric terms, we're looking for a 12.7x38R and I just can't find one.

Kuyong_Chuin
January 25, 2014, 08:03 PM
The brass is 1.5" long and the bullet is a bit larger than 50 cal. I thought it was a .58 center fire but the ones I saw on line looked like the brass was straight. Notice this brass is tapered for the top 1/3. There are no markings on it anywhere. The overall length is 2". Measurements are from the top of the rim. Thanks
After doing a little research I think, but I'm not sure since there is very little info on the parent round online that I could find, that the round my have started out as a .58-60 and bottle necked down to a 50 to fit in the 50-70 that replaced it. The bullet for a 50-70 was .515 in diameter and the case and the O.A.L. of the 50-70 is exactly 0.25 inches longer than your round. The Springfield Model 1865 fired a .58-60 round. It was replaced a year later by the Springfield Model 1866 that fired the 50-70-500. The 58-60 was rimfire but as it was pointed out some was converted to center fire and people used the cases they could find to make the round they needed. The 1865 was used in the Indian wars till replaced with the 1866. Someone could have had a 1865 model and replaced the barrel with a 1866 model causing them to neck down the cases to use the 50-70 lead balls. You never know. I'll keep looking.

Brian Olsen
January 25, 2014, 08:43 PM
Thank you! that was a lot of research.

Jim K
January 25, 2014, 10:56 PM
Deleted.

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